Mankas (tre, tre grave ;-) ) punkto je la fino. Sed cxu la senco de cxiuj aliaj tradukoj ne estas, ke ne alvenis _al loko_? "Jen ni" miaopinie metas emfazon al "ni", ne al loko. Ne, ke mi havus pli bonan tradukon...
Just to be clear, I don't see any point in rejecting a particular form of a sentence just because it's barely used. So if you want to keep this, it's fine. One can understand its meaning, and that's the most important.
In the absolute, I don't believe there's anything such as a "right" way or a "wrong" way to say/write something. Languages evolve, they will always evolve, and maybe in one hundred years, English speakers will rather say "Perhaps will he never" instead of "Perhaps he will never".
The correctness or wrongness of a phrase is always relative to who you're talking to, and when you're talking, the order in which you place words in your sentences will generate a different feeling for the person who is listening to you. So the question we need to answer here is: how would the majority of native English speakers feel when they hear "Perhaps will he never become famous"? Does it sound poetic, or does it just sound plain weird?
You can of course try to ask all the English speakers in the world, but I think Google can bring an answer here. I won't disagree that there is a lot of mediocre content on the internet, but thankfully there are also many people who are educated and who can write elegantly. And the thing is that out of the 2 million times "Perhaps he will never" was used, not a single person ever wanted to use "Perhaps will he never" instead.
If it was zero versus a hundred, then it would have not been possible to tell. But here it's zero versus 2 million. So it's fair to conclude that "Perhaps will he never" is a strange formulation. If it wasn't strange for people to speak in such a way, then they would use it more.
I'm going to tag this sentence "unnatural" and we'll leave it like that.
On an unrelated matter, sacredceltic, you seriously need to stop trolling so much. This is my first warning.
Grâce au dernier commentaire de muiriel, je viens de comprendre ce qu'essaie de m'expliquer eddiegab depuis des heures /o\
* si on veut dire "ils sont endormis", on peut écrire "Anne et moi sommes endormis" ou "Anne et moi, nous sommes endormis" (avec une virgule)
* si on veut dire "ils se sont endormis", on peut écrire "Anne et moi nous sommes endormis", sans virgule (ou "Anne et moi nous nous sommes endormis" si on tient vraiment à répéter le sujet, mais c'est inutile)
ah, je te suis, eddiegab.
avec un seul "nous" c'est pas clair si ce "nous" et le pronom relatif ou le sujet répété (de facon inutile^^). Donc si on veut être explicite on a besoin de deux "nous".
Merci à tous pour la discussion intéressante =).
Effectivement , j' ai oublié le "nous" mais mon sentiment reste le même. Pour clore le sujet , de mon coté , l' auteur de cette phrase choisira sa version.
je peux la tagguer "canadian french" ? car j'avoue que c'est la première fois que je vois "graduer" utilisé autrement que pour dire "cette règle/fiole est gradué". donc je ne sais pas si c'est juste une expression que je ne connaissais pas, ou si c'est propre au français parlé au canada. ·
Also ich würde die Temporalbestimmung in die Mitte setzen (klingt natürlicher):
... von Vorteil, während meiner Schulzeit Chinesisch gelernt zu haben. :-)
Il n'a jamais été question d'écrire "Anne et moi sommes endormis" ! « Anne et moi nous sommes endormis » est la meilleure solution (« Anne et moi nous nous sommes endormis » ne fait que répéter le sujet de façon inutile).
"Anne et moi sommes endormis " relate un état fixe ; ils sont endormis tandis que "nous nous sommes endormis " relate l' action de s' endormir du fait, dans cette phrase, de la séance ennuyeuse.
Laŭ mi "alvenis en Kioto" estas koretka, ĉu ne?
Se mi demandas "Kien li venis?", mi povas respondi "Li venis en la urbon." (direkto). Sed kiam mi demandas "Kie li alvenis?", mi devas respondi "Li alvenis en la urbo." (loko). Ĉu bone?
Salutas vin Heinz
Google rules ?
Do you know that MOST people cannot write many words properly and that it results in the web being OVERWHELMED with spelling mistakes, which in turn are taken for granted ?
According to this rule, similarly to the way bad currency ALWAYS ends up replacing good ones (if you know about economy), wrong spelling and turns of phrases will always end up replacing right ones. Internet, as finance, is the reign of mediocrity!
Of course this would not prove me right in this case, but the method you employ to evidence it is plain wrong.
The inversion is not only possible in French (which is irrelevant as French is a Romance language) but also in other germanic languages such as German and Dutch.
"In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree:
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man
Down to a sunless sea."
But of course, few people write as Samuel Taylor Coleridge used to...
@Scott, it is a translation in my opinion. The article Archibald mentioned explains the various meanings of "Time flies like an arrow".
I'll agree it's a bit far-fetched, but as long as it's tagged nonsense, it's fine.
This kind of sentences is interesting from a language processing point of view and Tatoeba is a perfectly adequate place to illustrate the tricky aspects of languages.
As a French speaker, it doesn't sound that strange to hear "Perhaps will he never...", but this is quite certainly because it is word for word transposition of the French sentence "Peut-être ne sera-t-il jamais..."
More objectively, searching "Perhaps will he never" on Google.com returns only one result (this sentence).
"Perhaps will I never" => 2 results
"Perhaps will you never" => No results found for "Perhaps will I never".
"Perhaps will we never" => 1 result
"Perhaps will they never" => No results found for "Perhaps will they never".
On the other hand...
"Perhaps I will never" => 396,000 results
"Perhaps you will never" => 2,650,000 results
"Perhaps he will never" => 2,190,000 results
"Perhaps we will never" => 3,300,000 results
"Perhaps they will never" => 2,770,000 results
I think we can objectively say that the inversion makes the sentence wrong.
So @sacredceltic, it would be appreciated that you change your sentence as Paul suggested. Otherwise, we will have to tag this with "wrong" or something.
Par contre peux tu laisser juste "ils" sans (elles) car ensuite la phrase française pourra être retraduite et/ou avoir un audio, et dès lors il faudra choisir "ils" ou elles.
Oui, c'est correct d'écrire deux fois "nous" mais c'est inutile. Ce serait comme écrire : "Muiriel, elle fait un gâteau" au lieu de "Muiriel fait un gâteau". Ce n'est pas la peine de répéter le sujet.
C'est correct de dire "Anne et moi sommes amis.", non? Il ne faut pas forcément dire "Anne et moi, nous sommes amis." ce qui serait correct aussi.
Donc si je ne me trome pas là, j'en déduis que c'est la même chose dans cette phrase ici: un "nous" suffit, mais deux sont corrects aussi.
NB : précision pour le français, à cause de l'ambigüité de genre de la personne relative à l'adjectif possessif :
"Il a révélé son secret (à elle) à ses amis (à lui)."
Le but n'est pas de faire dans le plus élégant, mais d'avoir un panel de mots variés mais néanmoins le plus représentatif possible de la langue.
"Cassé" est plus courant que "fracturé".
"Er antwortete seine_n_ Eltern." (Er antwortete wem? Dativ.) :)
In the absolute, I don't believe there's anything such as a "right" way or a "wrong" way to say/write something. Languages evolve, they will always evolve, and maybe in one hundred years, English speakers will rather say "Perhaps will he never" instead of "Perhaps he will never".
The correctness or wrongness of a phrase is always relative to who you're talking to, and when you're talking, the order in which you place words in your sentences will generate a different feeling for the person who is listening to you. So the question we need to answer here is: how would the majority of native English speakers feel when they hear "Perhaps will he never become famous"? Does it sound poetic, or does it just sound plain weird?
You can of course try to ask all the English speakers in the world, but I think Google can bring an answer here. I won't disagree that there is a lot of mediocre content on the internet, but thankfully there are also many people who are educated and who can write elegantly. And the thing is that out of the 2 million times "Perhaps he will never" was used, not a single person ever wanted to use "Perhaps will he never" instead.
If it was zero versus a hundred, then it would have not been possible to tell. But here it's zero versus 2 million. So it's fair to conclude that "Perhaps will he never" is a strange formulation. If it wasn't strange for people to speak in such a way, then they would use it more.
I'm going to tag this sentence "unnatural" and we'll leave it like that.
On an unrelated matter, sacredceltic, you seriously need to stop trolling so much. This is my first warning.
* si on veut dire "ils sont endormis", on peut écrire "Anne et moi sommes endormis" ou "Anne et moi, nous sommes endormis" (avec une virgule)
* si on veut dire "ils se sont endormis", on peut écrire "Anne et moi nous sommes endormis", sans virgule (ou "Anne et moi nous nous sommes endormis" si on tient vraiment à répéter le sujet, mais c'est inutile)
avec un seul "nous" c'est pas clair si ce "nous" et le pronom relatif ou le sujet répété (de facon inutile^^). Donc si on veut être explicite on a besoin de deux "nous".
Merci à tous pour la discussion intéressante =).
... von Vorteil, während meiner Schulzeit Chinesisch gelernt zu haben. :-)
需要 = need to
要 = will (有时候也用“会”)/want to(= 想要)
Dankon pro la atentigo.
Se mi demandas "Kien li venis?", mi povas respondi "Li venis en la urbon." (direkto). Sed kiam mi demandas "Kie li alvenis?", mi devas respondi "Li alvenis en la urbo." (loko). Ĉu bone?
Salutas vin Heinz
Do you know that MOST people cannot write many words properly and that it results in the web being OVERWHELMED with spelling mistakes, which in turn are taken for granted ?
According to this rule, similarly to the way bad currency ALWAYS ends up replacing good ones (if you know about economy), wrong spelling and turns of phrases will always end up replacing right ones. Internet, as finance, is the reign of mediocrity!
Of course this would not prove me right in this case, but the method you employ to evidence it is plain wrong.
The inversion is not only possible in French (which is irrelevant as French is a Romance language) but also in other germanic languages such as German and Dutch.
"In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree:
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man
Down to a sunless sea."
But of course, few people write as Samuel Taylor Coleridge used to...
I'll agree it's a bit far-fetched, but as long as it's tagged nonsense, it's fine.
This kind of sentences is interesting from a language processing point of view and Tatoeba is a perfectly adequate place to illustrate the tricky aspects of languages.
More objectively, searching "Perhaps will he never" on Google.com returns only one result (this sentence).
"Perhaps will I never" => 2 results
"Perhaps will you never" => No results found for "Perhaps will I never".
"Perhaps will we never" => 1 result
"Perhaps will they never" => No results found for "Perhaps will they never".
On the other hand...
"Perhaps I will never" => 396,000 results
"Perhaps you will never" => 2,650,000 results
"Perhaps he will never" => 2,190,000 results
"Perhaps we will never" => 3,300,000 results
"Perhaps they will never" => 2,770,000 results
I think we can objectively say that the inversion makes the sentence wrong.
So @sacredceltic, it would be appreciated that you change your sentence as Paul suggested. Otherwise, we will have to tag this with "wrong" or something.
merci:)
Donc si je ne me trome pas là, j'en déduis que c'est la même chose dans cette phrase ici: un "nous" suffit, mais deux sont corrects aussi.
Otherwise you just post a comment asking for someone else to do it for you.
How do I "tag" it?
*spatiale.
"Il a révélé son secret (à elle) à ses amis (à lui)."
*quiconque
"Cassé" est plus courant que "fracturé".
Les deux sont corrects.
merci!
間〔ま〕→〔あいだ〕