「あの男は本当に上手にうそをつく」
「あの男はうそをつくのが本当にうまい」
ではどうでしょうか?
yusankaさん、はじめまして。ようこそタトエバへ!
ご提案をありがとうございます。
こちらの日本文ですが、色々理由がありすぐには変更できないのと、リンクされている英文は少し不自然な表現のようなので、もし英語の翻訳をしていただけるようでしたら、表現が変わっていますが、下の英文に訳をつけていただけると嬉しいです。
[#5737174] Tom is adept at telling lies. (CM) *audio*
[#10063824] It's been reported that children as young as three and a half years old are capable of telling lies. (CK)
よろしくお願いします。
追伸:
※変更できない理由は、長くなるのでまた機会ある時にお伝えします。
※よろしければ、プロフィールにyusankaさんがご存じの言語を書いていただけると助かります。https://tatoeba.org/ja/user/profile/yusanka
Note that "quite capable" doesn't really mean 上手に.
'This man is quite capable of telling lies'. in English and
'Этот человек вполне способен на ложь.' in Russian ' means「奴はうそもつきかねない男だ」
On the other hand, Indonesian translation 'Pria ini pandai sekali berbohong.' means 'This man is very good at lying.' Such is the case with German translation 'Dieser Mann kann sehr gut lügen. 「彼はうそをつくのがとても上手だ」
It doesn't mean 「奴はうそもつきかねない男だ」, according to Google translation.
Two meanings are mixed, which makes me embarrassed.
I thought the English sentence could theoretically mean both, hm? 'Quite capable' extending to 'quite good' if by conflation.
@MsFixer
もしよかったら、教えてください。
インドネシア語と日本語って一致していると思いますか?
The Indonesian sentence is exactly the same as the English one. This means that the IDN is not the right one for the current Japanese translation 「うそをつきかねない」.
Here is my word-for-word translation.
“Pria itu pandai sekali berbohong.”
“Man the capable very lying.”
インドネシア語の文は英文の対訳としては完璧です。よって「うそをつきかねない」としている日本語は英語だけでなくインドネシア語とも一致していません。
インドネシア語の文を語順そのままで逐語訳すると
Man the capable very lying.
になります。
@MsFixer
お会いできて嬉しいです。そして、返信をありがとうございます。
インドネシア語のリンクを外しました。また何かあったら教えてください。
P.S. お時間のある時はまた遊びに来てくださいね。楽しみにしてます😊
@small_snow
I agree with your operation: Delinking IDN #4113338 from JPN #124447 (sourced from Tanaka Corpus, which sometimes contains unqualified translations). However, IDN #4113338 should remain being linked to ENG #279547. Please bear in mind that the pair of 4113338 and 279547 is currently used by Clozemaster, a third-party language app. This IDN-ENG pair has no problem as I explained. Delinking just makes many Clozemaster users with the Indonesian from English course (including me) very confused.
@CK -san, please correct me if I’m wrong. “Adept” in English means “skillful”. “Capable” is “having capability/ability to fulfill tasks”. If so, “Tom is adept at telling a lie.” (#5737174) can be interpreted like this:
Tom frequently tells a lie. But most of the people believe his lies. Tom is manipulative. Therefore, yusanka-san’s proposed sentence「あの男はうそをつくのが本当にうまい」is a great translation for the ENG “adept” sentence if rephrase with「トム」from「あの男」.
#279547 “The man is quite capable of telling lies.” can be used in a different context. For example, Company X tries to deceive prospective investors to raise money. Board members of Comp X are discussing on who should be in charge of this scam as a project leader. And then, someone says: “Oh, Jason at the marketing department is our guy! The man is quite capable of telling a lie.” We don’t know Jason is a frequent lier or not. But Jason is very loyal to Comp X and also good at customer relationship management. So, Jason is able to fulfill the mission of the scam by telling lies to prospective investors. 「あの男はうそをつくのが本当にうまい」cannot be applied to this Jason case because the Japanese sentence「うまい」implies that that man is a frequent lier.
@hasnadinar
Could you give us your opinion? According to KBBI (the most prominent IDN-IDN dictionary compiled by the Ministry of Education), “pandai” in Indonesian can be translated as both “capable” and “adept” in English, in my humble opinion.
“Pandai”’s first meaning is “smart” or “intelligent”. For example, “this kid is very smart and good at speaking French.” is expressed with the adjective “Pandai”. “Pandai” is frequently used when a person is a quick learner. Thus, I think #4113338 “Pria itu pandai sekali berbohong.” can be translated as “capable” (i.e. the aforementioned Jason case).
I also presume “pandai” can be translated as “adept” because KBBI uses “pandai” in the context of “good at making an excuse” as a sample sentence.
@MsFixer
Hi!
According to KBBI, "pandai" is mostly translated to "cepat menangkap pelajaran dan mengerti sesuatu, pintar, cerdas, mahir, cakap, terampil, berilmu" or in English "easy to absorb lessons and understand something, smart, intelligent, proficient, good at something, creative, knowledgeable". Another definition says "dapat, sanggup" which means "to be able to" but as a native speaker I don't think you can just use "pandai" randomly when talking about capability. There should be a certain level of ability until one is considered "pandai". For example, just because I can play a few chords on the piano, doesn't mean I am "pandai". And even when I can play some compositions well, using "bisa" would suit the context better. "Pandai" gives off a nuance that I can learn any composition pretty quickly and efficiently and can play those songs I learnt well.
In other words "Pandai" if compared to "pintar" and other Indonesian words meaning "smart", focuses more on the learning process. The official sample sentence in the KBBI page is "anak itu sudah pandai membaca" this has a connotation that the child has been learning how to spell their abcs and is now able to read out simple sentences.
In English, "adept" means to be proficient or excellent at something, so using "pandai" in this case would make sense, although "jago" would give more emphasis towards the result and current condition and not the learning process. Meanwhile as "capable" just means to possess the ability to do something like I mentioned before, I don't think it is suitable for this case.
If I say "dia pandai berbohong" it means that he or she is proficient at lying, as they are manipulative enough for people to believe them. You can say :he is capable of lying in English, but directly translating it to Indonesian, "dia bisa berbohong" it doesn't make sense (because anyone can lie, it's just that some people are manipulative and believable while some others are not).
In daily conversations using informal speech, you may use "bisa" and "jago"/"pandai" interchangeably, when talking about a skill you can practice tangibly. For example, "dia bisa nyanyi" is translated directly as "she can sing" but it means that she is good at it. However, when talking about "skills" like lying, cheating, manipulative acts, using "bisa" instead would give a context that "the condition has allowed them to do so (it might be possible that they usually don't do such things). For example, "dia pandai berbohong" means he is manipulative; whereas "dia bisa berbohong" means "you left a crevice in your words which give him a room to lie and get away with it".
To desribe a frequency, "dia sering berbohong" is the best translation but yet again this doesn't imply that their lies are believable or manipulative; although they lie often, it doesn't necessarily mean they are good at it. This is different with the Japanese うまい you mentioned because it would imply he frequently lies. In Japanese, かねない has a meaning of "there is a possibility he might do something" so using "bisa" in this context would be great and suitable for both its English "capable" and Japanese かねない translations. But then again, this has a different nuance than jago or pandai (doesn't really imply a negative connotation)
So while "pandai sekali berbohong' is a good and grammatically correct sentence with a negative connotation, I don't think it can be outwardly translated as "capable" in English, because using "pandai" means its meaning will be something like "he's very good at it and that's a bad omen". "That man is quite capable of telling lies" in Indonesian literally would be "dia lumayan bisa berbohong" which, as my previous explanation, doesn't make sense in Indonesian contexts (as there is a difference between "capability" and "possibility")
This is a tough case. The sentence sounds perfectly fine to me, but if you analyze the word choice by one, there are tons of different nuances you can get according to what you say.
英文の quite capable がどのようなシチュエーションや文脈で使えるのか、僭越ながらHiNative上で英語ネイティブに第三者意見を募ってみました。現時点で2名の方々からご回答頂いていますが、実に興味深いです。
https://hinative.com/en-US/questions/19186889
1) Geevernyさんのご意見ですが @CK さんとは真逆でして、quite capable = adept = とても上手だ と解釈すべきとのことです。このご意見に従うと、当初の yusanka さんご提案「あの男はうそをつくのが本当にうまい」は quite capable の訳として適切だということになります。
2) ppardeeさんの解釈はこれとは異なり、quite が添えられることで「君はあの男が嘘をつけるなんて思ってないかもしれないけど、実は嘘をつけるんだよ」というニュアンスで解釈されていました。つまり、quiteはcapableの程度を高めているわけではなく (能力がある → すごく能力がある → うまい ではなく)、予想に反して実のところ…という強調の意味で使われているとの解釈です。ppardeeさん説を採用すると、田中コーパス訳の「奴はうそもつきかねない男だ」はむしろ優れた意訳だということになります。
両者に共通するのは、単なる capable (能力がある) と、これに quite を添えた場合とでは文脈そのものが大きく異なるという点ですね。
なお、インドネシア語のpandai は日本語の田中コーパス訳とはズレるので、リンクを外した small_snow さんの操作はそのままで良いと考えます。hasnadinar さん、分かりやすいインドネシア語解説ありがとうございました!
私の投じたコメントがこのように盛り上がるとは思ってもみませんでした。
たった1つの文でもその解釈ををめぐって各人各様の受け取り方があるので、統一見解に達するのは難しいでしょう。皆さま語学の達人ばかりで、最後まで読み通すのがむずかしい一面もありましたが、大変参考になりました。編集される方々のご苦労をお察しします。
今後ともよろしくお願い申し上げます。
@MsFixer
詳しい日本語の説明をありがとうございます。とても分かりやすかったし、MsFixerさんが追及心旺盛な方でよかったって思っています。これからも、Tatoebaをhasnadinarさんともどもインドネシア語・日本語・英語などのディスカッションの場として活用なさるなど、MsFixerさんスタイルで楽しんでください。
P.S. Tanaka Corpus の訳って、奥深いですよね?😉
@yusanka
コメントをありがとうございました。これからも躊躇されることなく、コメントや訳の追加をなさってくださいね。ありがとうございました。
@hasnadinar
はじめまして。日本人のsmall_snowと申します。MsFixerさんから日本語が堪能であるとお伺いしております。また分からないことがありましたら、声をかけさせていただくと思います。どうぞよろしくお願いします。m(_ _)m
@CK, @Ooneykcall
Thank you for your comments. :)
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