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Sentence #1607580

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Comments

jakov jakov June 5, 2012 June 5, 2012 at 9:07:18 PM UTC link Permalink

Je pense qu’il faut pas mettre un espace avant le point d’interrogation en anglais.

sacredceltic sacredceltic June 5, 2012 June 5, 2012 at 9:29:43 PM UTC link Permalink

tu as tort. J'ai déjà prouvé sur Tatoeba que des espaces étaient présentes devant les double-points dans les éditions anglaises de Dickens.

sacredceltic sacredceltic June 5, 2012 June 5, 2012 at 9:37:59 PM UTC link Permalink

says who ?

sacredceltic sacredceltic June 5, 2012 June 5, 2012 at 10:12:41 PM UTC link Permalink

>but that is no longer the case

What authority decreed it ?
I can still buy editions where thin spaces are present and I already produced examples from Google Books on Tatoeba...

So the charge of the proof is yours...

sacredceltic sacredceltic June 5, 2012 June 5, 2012 at 10:17:29 PM UTC link Permalink

>That is irrelevant here, because this is not a colon but a question mark.

No it isn't, because I produced a wonderful example of FULL space before a question mark in an original edition of Dickens from Google Books...

Dickens is my reference for English. Do you have a better one ?

sacredceltic sacredceltic June 5, 2012 June 5, 2012 at 10:19:35 PM UTC link Permalink

I think you misunderstood « double-point » in French. It designates the four :;?! (ie, all punctuation that involves 2 signs...)

: is in French « deux points »

Scott Scott June 5, 2012 June 5, 2012 at 10:24:54 PM UTC link Permalink

I think it's better to follow a single rule for that kind of thing.

I'll just point out that the recommendation for punctuation in Quebec is not to put a space before the question mark (in French). See http://66.46.185.79/bdl/gabarit...p?t1=1&id=2039
So by your reasoning, we would have to also allow not putting a space in French. However, this would make the French corpus more inconsistent. Overall, I think it's better to have one rule and stick with it.

marcelostockle marcelostockle June 5, 2012 June 5, 2012 at 10:25:00 PM UTC link Permalink

All English sentences in Tatoeba don't use it
why is that not enough?

sacredceltic sacredceltic June 5, 2012 June 5, 2012 at 10:44:45 PM UTC link Permalink

>All English sentences in Tatoeba don't use it
why is that not enough?

What is that for a rule ???


>The Oxford Guide to Style published April 4, 2002 neither mentions using spaces before any of those punctuation marks nor does it use the spaces before those marks in the book.

Not mentioning is nor decrying nor forbidding...

sacredceltic sacredceltic June 5, 2012 June 5, 2012 at 10:51:24 PM UTC link Permalink

>I'll just point out that the recommendation for punctuation in Quebec is not to put a space before the question mark (in French).

I already proved and I can prove ANYTIME that the ENTIRE édition Québecoise uses thin spaces (= 1/3 de cadratin, soit un blanc carré de la valeur du corps...) before double-points.

Je te renvois au « Mémento typographique » de Charles Gouriou, qui est la Bible de l'édition francophone...

Scott Scott June 5, 2012 June 5, 2012 at 10:57:02 PM UTC link Permalink

But if one book from the 19th century doesn't use spaces, what do we do? Does it allow us to use this style on Tatoeba?

I think it's much better to follow a consistent rule.

sacredceltic sacredceltic June 5, 2012 June 5, 2012 at 11:00:57 PM UTC link Permalink

>A book from 18XX is not a good source for punctuation rules in modern times.

Says who ? Dickens is and will remain my source, whatever...

sacredceltic sacredceltic June 5, 2012 June 5, 2012 at 11:02:47 PM UTC link Permalink

>But if one book from the 19th century doesn't use spaces, what do we do?

But the fact is that 19th century books overwhelmingly use spaces before double-points. t's just a fact...

marcelostockle marcelostockle June 5, 2012 June 5, 2012 at 11:07:10 PM UTC link Permalink

"Not mentioning is nor decrying nor forbidding..."
"Says who ?"

Un bon exemple de démonstration par l'absurde...

sacredceltic sacredceltic June 5, 2012 June 5, 2012 at 11:08:50 PM UTC link Permalink

indeed...

marcelostockle marcelostockle June 5, 2012 June 5, 2012 at 11:11:13 PM UTC link Permalink

independently if there's a rule that allows me to write multiple spaces between words, signs instead of letters, or anything of the like, following a consistent rule facilitates link, tag and comment merging, and to improve the quality of the corpus

sacredceltic sacredceltic June 6, 2012 June 6, 2012 at 11:00:54 AM UTC link Permalink

The quality of the corpus is not at all affected because spaces are present before double-points.
On the contrary, it makes sentences more readable.
The argument that spaces should not be there to gain space is ridiculous. At best, in the digital age, it is a total archaïsm.

marcelostockle marcelostockle June 6, 2012 June 6, 2012 at 3:01:07 PM UTC link Permalink

you misinterpreted my point completely

"At best, in the digital age, it is a total archaïsm."
Remember Max_Hydrogen and his phonetical French? well, that's exactly what you're giving avail to with it. Anarchy and corruption.

best regards!

jakov jakov June 6, 2012 June 6, 2012 at 3:27:41 PM UTC link Permalink

I'm sorry for starting that long debate. I didn't even think of the possibility that the english language uses or used these blanks at all, but I'm neither native nor used to english literature to comment on this.

However, my personal opinion would be, that if you use punctuation different from what is usual *today*, you should tag you sentence accordingly

sacredceltic sacredceltic June 6, 2012 June 6, 2012 at 4:30:41 PM UTC link Permalink

>if you use punctuation different from what is usual *today*, you should tag you sentence accordingly

the problem is that, unlike for French, no authority has expressed any opinion of what it is today in English...The only ground that is given, by some, that it gains space is indeed an archaism. There's plenty of space everywhere, in digital and in paper...
So, to me, this "pseudo-rule" is neither founded, nor is it grounded on historical evidence as I have shown. But it is indeed a hindrance to reading.

I have given ample evidence of the French typographical standards, including for edition in Québec, against preposterous and unfounded assertions of the contrary by a few anglo-Canadians on Tatoeba.
Despite all this evidence that I have provided, mandatory thin spaces in front of ?;:! in French are still invisible to me on Tatoeba...


@marcelostockle
The anarchy and corruption is rather on the side of those who want to impede people's reading.

Scott Scott June 6, 2012 June 6, 2012 at 4:47:56 PM UTC link Permalink

What I find amazing is how your attitude contrasts with what you said in regard to the same debate in French.

http://tatoeba.org/fre/wall/show_message/2770

You were so open to the possibility that a different rule might apply in Canada! You wanted Tatoeba to allow every regional variant! (/sarcasm)

http://tatoeba.org/fre/sentences/show/1124912

sacredceltic sacredceltic June 6, 2012 June 6, 2012 at 4:50:39 PM UTC link Permalink

>You were so open to the possibility that a different rule might apply in Canada! You wanted Tatoeba to allow every regional variant! (/sarcasm)

Yes, but you produced no evidence whatsoever that Canadian publishing doesn't use spaces before ;:?! alas...And I produced masses of evidence to the contrary.
It's so easy to prove, that you open any Canadian French book or magazine and actually see it for yourself !

Scott Scott June 6, 2012 June 6, 2012 at 4:54:25 PM UTC link Permalink

I don't know if it's used in books, but it's certainly the norm when writing on a computer: http://techno.lapresse.ca/jeux-...ta-de-sony.php

sacredceltic sacredceltic June 6, 2012 June 6, 2012 at 5:00:17 PM UTC link Permalink

oui, les francisations brutales de sites anglophones sont légion au Canada. Les francophones canadiens n'ont rien à attendre des geeks anglophones qui dessinent leurs sites web à leur manière...

sacredceltic sacredceltic June 6, 2012 June 6, 2012 at 5:19:12 PM UTC link Permalink

In one of the link you produced here, I defied you at the time to produce just ONE SINGLE French Canadian Google Book that wouldn't feature thin spaces before ;:?!
You never produced it when I was able to produce English or German books that feature them...

Again, open any french canadian book or magazine : it's just under your eyes.

Thin spaces are there because they make perfect sense.
Now if you can produce a source of AUTHORITY that proves that they shouldn't be there, I'll reconsider...

Scott Scott June 7, 2012 June 7, 2012 at 12:07:28 AM UTC link Permalink

http://66.46.185.79/bdl/gabarit...=2&t1=&id=3382

"Par ailleurs, il est à noter qu’aucune espace ne précède le point d’interrogation (certains typographes préfèrent mettre une espace fine), tandis qu’une espace sécable doit le suivre."

C'est de l'OQLF, qui fait autorité sur la langue.

sacredceltic sacredceltic June 7, 2012 June 7, 2012 at 10:22:18 AM UTC link Permalink

Les espaces avant les double-points en français sont présents dans TOUTE l'édition française, SANS EXCEPTION, comme le montre la lecture de N'IMPORTE QUEL livre ou magazine français, Y COMPRIS TOUS les livres et magazines Québécois que j'ai ouverts dans ma vie.
En conséquence, TOUS les français ont appris à lire avec ces espaces, qui ont deux emplois essentiels :
1) ils évitent la confusion d'un mot terminant par un point d'interrogation avec un autre mot terminant avec une voyelle haute.
2) ils permettent de repérer qu'une phrase est une exclamation ou une interrogation, de manière à adapter l'intonation dès le début de la phrase. Si le double-point est collé, on ne peut pas correctement le repérer en début de lecture.

Actuellement, Tatoeba ne permet pas la lecture de ces espaces fines et c'est une infraction à la typographie et à l'usage français depuis des siècles et aux habitudes de lecture des TOUS les Français et de la plupart des autres francophones.

Donc si vous voulez contrevenir à ce principe de bon sens auquel tout le monde est habitué, je propose que vous créiez une nouvelle langue "Français sans espaces avant les double-points", alors...

Scott Scott June 7, 2012 June 7, 2012 at 2:33:01 PM UTC link Permalink

Est-ce que c'est une réponse à mon commentaire? Parce que moi je parle des points d'interrogation et non des double points.

sacredceltic sacredceltic June 7, 2012 June 7, 2012 at 4:42:02 PM UTC link Permalink

>Est-ce que c'est une réponse à mon commentaire? Parce que moi je parle des points d'interrogation et non des double points.

Oui, et c'est dommage que tu ne lises pas les commentaires précédents avant d'intervenir, parce que j'ai déjà expliqué à Nero, dans ce même fil de conversation, qu'en français, les « double-points » ou « points doubles » sont : :;?!
Ce à quoi tu penses, s'appelle « deux points »...

Scott Scott June 7, 2012 June 7, 2012 at 8:48:14 PM UTC link Permalink

Moi, j'associe double point à ":". D'ailleurs Wikipédia semble être du même avis http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_point et http://66.46.185.79/bdl/gabarit_bdl.asp?id=3325 . Pour "! ? :", Wikipédia parle de ponctuation double, symbole bipoint et signe double http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponctuation. Je ne sais pas si c'est strictement correct, mais ça porte moins à confusion.

Reste que tu as dit "Now if you can produce a source of AUTHORITY that proves that they shouldn't be there, I'll reconsider... " Ce que j'ai fait, mais tu ne semble prêt à reconsidérer.

Comme je l'ai dit, je n'ai pas de problème avec la règle en tant que telle. Je soulignais simplement la contradiction: tu es opposé à une exception en français, mais tu réclames une exception en anglais. Et ce alors que la règle anglaise ne connait pas d'exceptions dans l'usage moderne, alors que c'est le cas pour le français!

sacredceltic sacredceltic June 7, 2012 June 7, 2012 at 10:45:35 PM UTC link Permalink

>Moi, j'associe double point à ":".

ben c'est une erreur.
« : » se dénomme « deux points » en français...

et pour la dernière fois : on s'en fout de ce que dit Wikipédia. Ils n'ont aucune autorité !

Ta source d'autorité est NULLE parce que tu ne produis AUCUN exemple d'ouvrage québecois qui n'utiliserait pas de'espace fines avant les points doubles.

>Comme je l'ai dit, je n'ai pas de problème avec la règle en tant que telle. Je soulignais simplement la contradiction: tu es opposé à une exception en français, mais tu réclames une exception en anglais. Et ce alors que la règle anglaise ne connait pas d'exceptions dans l'usage moderne, alors que c'est le cas pour le français!

NON !

La règle N'EXISTE tout simplement pas en anglais. En français, c'est une évidence éditoriale ! À toi de prouver le contraire !
Moi j'ai prouvé que votre soi-disant règle pour l'édition anglophone n'en était pas une !

La preuve par DICKENS !

sacredceltic sacredceltic June 7, 2012 June 7, 2012 at 10:46:55 PM UTC link Permalink

et la raison pour laquelle tu n'as rien contre les espaces fines en français sur Tatoeba est que tu t'es débrouillé pour que personne ne les voit !
Je ne suis pas dupe...

Scott Scott June 7, 2012 June 7, 2012 at 11:46:59 PM UTC link Permalink

Je ne connais rien aux espaces fines. Je ne suis pas allé manipuler le code de Tatoeba, ni de ton navigateur!

sacredceltic sacredceltic June 7, 2012 June 7, 2012 at 11:50:00 PM UTC link Permalink

oui, mais tu as fait pression pour qu'on emploie une police dans laquelle les espaces fines sont invisibles...

Scott Scott June 7, 2012 June 7, 2012 at 11:54:25 PM UTC link Permalink

"oui, mais tu as fait pression pour qu'on emploie une police dans laquelle les espaces fines sont invisibles..."

Sans commentaire. Je crois que j'ai dit tout ce que j'avais à dire sur ce sujet. Je cesserai donc de commenter sur cette phrase.

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License: CC BY 2.0 FR

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This sentence was initially added as a translation of sentence #483686Est-il docteur ?.

Does he have a doctorate ?

added by sacredceltic, June 5, 2012

linked by sacredceltic, June 5, 2012

linked by alexmarcelo, June 5, 2012

linked by Guybrush88, January 12, 2014

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linked by Shishir, April 23, 2014