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Sentence #482049

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Comments

Demetrius Demetrius August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 12:01:51 AM UTC link Permalink

if

MUIRIEL MUIRIEL August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 12:05:42 AM UTC link Permalink

no, iff.
its an abbreviation for "if and only if"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_and_only_if

Demetrius Demetrius August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 12:15:00 AM UTC link Permalink

I see. Thank you.

MUIRIEL MUIRIEL August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 12:16:38 AM UTC link Permalink

you're welcome. I admit I was waiting for that comment ;).

MUIRIEL MUIRIEL August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 12:25:18 AM UTC link Permalink

haha great, did you tag it "useful info" =D ?

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 12:28:41 AM UTC link Permalink

I did. But who on earth tagged it as controversial?

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 12:29:31 AM UTC link Permalink

(someone who has found a way to enter the imaginary domain, I suppose)

MUIRIEL MUIRIEL August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 12:31:02 AM UTC link Permalink

No, I did, because the natural numbers are often defined to NOT include 0 :P.

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 12:33:15 AM UTC link Permalink

And so we enter the math department...

Swift Swift August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 1:29:19 AM UTC link Permalink

Doesn't one usually speak of "greater" rather than "superior" in mathematics? I don't think I've ever seen it phrased like this.

MUIRIEL MUIRIEL August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 1:31:12 AM UTC link Permalink

you're probably right, thx.

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 1:31:57 AM UTC link Permalink

That's why I added the second translation, actually.

I was going to say that this was probably something from the French, but "superior to" is still very valid, IMO, even in English. More erudite books might use it. But yes, the more common natural thing would be "greater than".

deniko deniko May 16, 2012 May 16, 2012 at 10:19:39 AM UTC link Permalink

I'd like to go back to this "iff"

Is it really possible to use this "word" in a sentence like this one?

I believe it's just a short form of "if and only if" in logical formulas, for example you certainly might write: "For any p, q, and r: (p & q) & r iff p & (q & r)", but it's not a real sentence.

Could you really "iff" in a normal sentence, like in the definition of a natural integer? Maybe you still have to write "An integer is natural if and only if it is greater or equal to 0"?

MUIRIEL MUIRIEL May 17, 2012 May 17, 2012 at 3:47:39 PM UTC link Permalink

I think it is used in what you call "normal" sentences.
For example in the Wikipedia article, there are examples for it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_and_only_if

Thanuir Thanuir October 6, 2018 October 6, 2018 at 6:08:51 PM UTC link Permalink

I would rather write that an integer is a natural number, than that an integer is natural. I do not think that "natural integer" is a thing.

Thanuir Thanuir May 26, 2019 May 26, 2019 at 6:57:43 AM UTC link Permalink

Not a native English speaker, but I am a research mathematician with international collaborations in English.

I do not remember anyone saying "iff", and furthermore, it is very easy to confuse with a pronounced "if" and the distinction is crucial, so I would recommend pronouncing "iff" as "if and only if".

I can not comment on native English mathematicians speaking with each other.

I would say that writing "iff" is more of a shorthand notation or casual writing. I do not recall ever seeing it in formal mathematical writing (published articles or textbooks). I could imagine it as a part of lecture or slides, but still, it would be a potential source of confusion even there.

Pfirsichbaeumchen Pfirsichbaeumchen May 26, 2019 May 26, 2019 at 7:13:21 AM UTC link Permalink

It should probably be read "if and only if", and it should probably be spelt out like that as well.

Thanuir Thanuir May 26, 2019 May 26, 2019 at 7:49:13 AM UTC link Permalink

The shorthand "iff" is certainly used in more casual contexts. I do not think it is a good idea in general, but it is used.

I searched Arxiv, a repository with many mathematics (and physics and computer science) preprints, and there were a few instances of the abbreviation in serious articles, so it does seem to happen: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=iff+site%3Aarxiv.org

I would still expand it when pronouncing.

Horus Horus June 19, 2019 June 19, 2019 at 6:00:07 PM UTC link Permalink

Duplicates of this sentence have been deleted:
x #482121

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License: CC BY 2.0 FR

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This sentence was initially added as a translation of sentence #482029Un nombre entier est naturel ssi il est supérieur ou égal à 0..

An integer is natural iff it is supérieur or equal to 0.

added by MUIRIEL, August 26, 2010

An integer is natural iff it is superior or equal to 0.

edited by MUIRIEL, August 26, 2010

#482121

linked by FeuDRenais, August 27, 2010

An integer is natural iff it is greater or equal to 0.

edited by MUIRIEL, August 27, 2010

An integer is natural iff it is greater than or equal to 0.

edited by AlanF_US, June 19, 2019

#11973661

linked by Naina, August 1, 2023