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Sentence #549363

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Comments

qdii qdii October 24, 2010 October 24, 2010 at 9:57:06 AM UTC link Permalink

Cette phrase sonne bizarre à mes oreilles. Elle est correcte au niveau de la grammaire, mais vraiment je dirais "Tom est un de mes amis" ou "Tom est un ami à moi", non ?

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais October 24, 2010 October 24, 2010 at 10:36:28 AM UTC link Permalink

Mais pour les suisses, ça pourrait être l'invers qui sonne bizarre...

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 24, 2010 October 24, 2010 at 10:42:25 AM UTC link Permalink

"un ami de moi", je n'ai jamais entendu ça, même dans la bouche d'un Suisse romand. Un Suisse alémanique alors ? Mais ça n'est pas français.

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais October 24, 2010 October 24, 2010 at 10:57:24 AM UTC link Permalink

Enlever @change, svp. Cette expression est parfaitement valable en Suisse romande. C'est pour ça que j'ai mis le tag "Swiss French".

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 24, 2010 October 24, 2010 at 11:07:41 AM UTC link Permalink

Je ne suis pas d'accord. Tu n'es pas francophone et cette phrase ne l'est pas davantage, en Suisse ou ailleurs.
Tu dois fournir une référence valable de la validité de cette expression et tu ne la trouveras pas, parce qu'elle n'existe pas.

http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/ami

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 24, 2010 October 24, 2010 at 11:10:02 AM UTC link Permalink

et si tu veux prouver le contraire, tu n'as qu'à citer un article de la presse Suisse romande ou un écrivain Suisse romand.
Bonne chance...

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais October 24, 2010 October 24, 2010 at 11:32:22 AM UTC link Permalink

To a moderator: someone seems to have tagged this with a @change tag. To me, this implies that the tagger is 100% sure that there is an error, but this does not appear to be the case. Would someone with the power to remove this tag please do so?

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 24, 2010 October 24, 2010 at 11:37:50 AM UTC link Permalink

@moderator

Yes, it is 100% sure to be an error.
There is not ONE reference of "est un ami de moi" in Francophone litterature, in Switzerland or elsewhere.
Please provide one quote form a valid source such as a published book or article or change this sentence.

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais October 24, 2010 October 24, 2010 at 11:50:02 AM UTC link Permalink

@moderator: As a resident of Switzerland (the tagger, I believe, is not), I can vouch that this point has come up in daily conversation at least twice, and that the conclusion (unless I really misheard) was that "ami de moi" was the local variant.

In any case, now that this sentence has come under scrutiny, I will ask a few Swiss their opinions and report back. I request that @change be at least changed to @check, and that users with tagging privileges not abuse them in the future.

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 24, 2010 October 24, 2010 at 11:58:15 AM UTC link Permalink

> I can vouch that this point has come up in daily conversation at least twice,

The conversation you held was with people who don't properly speak French, probably because they're multilingual and confuse languages...Some people are often convinced that their turns of phrases are correct when they're not.

The mistake "ami de moi" is a classic, basic mistake in French, that adults teach to children all the time...
>and that users with tagging privileges not abuse them in the future.

It is not an abuse, it is my privilege to tag and I do, and especially since this language is my native tongue.
Please do your research and come back with valid references...

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais October 24, 2010 October 24, 2010 at 12:36:56 PM UTC link Permalink

I would just like to clear up a few misconceptions that the tagger seems to be trying to create:

Misconception 1: As a non-francophone, I made a classical mistake, and that I am trying to weasel myself out of it by claiming that it is some regional variant. This is not true, because I added this expression some time ago with the exact purpose of illustrating this variant. I also knew that our distinguished tagger would come and create a fuss about it, and in fact he has, with a lag of a month or so.

Misconception 2: Relying on Swiss hearsay is worthless, since the country is in linguistic disarray. Actually, the linguistic divide is quite clear. In my part, most people speak strictly French amd speak it well. In the middle, around Bern, there is a mixture, although German is greatly favored. Past that, in Zurich, very many people don't speak any French. So, the Swiss are not confused with their languages. I may not know that much about this country, but the distinguished tagger seems to know even less. I suggest that he comply with the tag request until I come back with a thorough research report about this strange usage (if, after all, I go through the trouble and take the time, couldn't the tagger at least show some decency and spend two seconds changing the tag?)

If he doesn't, then perhaps he shouldn't be allowed tagging privileges.

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 24, 2010 October 24, 2010 at 12:42:57 PM UTC link Permalink

Je ne changerai pas mon tag, que tu le demandes en anglais, en russe ou en ouïghour et que tu cherches à m'insulter ou à me ridiculiser.
Cette phrase n'est pas française, c'est tout, et tout ton discours sur la Suisse n'a rien à voir là-dedans, tu essaies juste de noyer le poisson pour masquer ton erreur.

Tu dois citer des sources, ou tout au moins une source valable de l'acceptation de cette phrase par son utilisation dans la presse ou la littérature Suisse romande, sinon tu dois changer ta phrase.
Donc l'étiquette @change est parfaitement appropriée tant que tu ne l'as pas fait.

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais October 24, 2010 October 24, 2010 at 12:47:42 PM UTC link Permalink

@rusiak:

Please replace yourself with someone more patient and humble. I said I would research the matter.

qdii qdii October 24, 2010 October 24, 2010 at 1:13:17 PM UTC link Permalink

Hello,
This has gone a bit too far hasn't it ?
I've asked around, and it looked like this sentences seems wrong to my French friends, Belgian friends, Canadian friends and Swiss friends.

I think that even if a part of Switzerland population actively uses it, a foreigner learning French would better employ a more used form, because 90% of the French-spoken will frown when he says it.

But guys this is getting personal. FeuDRenais would you please change it ? Just because to my mind foreigners should not learn this :/

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais October 24, 2010 October 24, 2010 at 4:08:05 PM UTC link Permalink

@aandrusiak: No, there's nothing wrong if you ask politely. You, however, ignored completely the possibility that this might be accepted in CH, and told me to change it as if it was without a doubt 100% wrong (without explaining why it would be). And I told you that I would research the question, so why not wait? Are we on a deadline? Lastly, you want me to (immediately) make this phrase a duplicate of the "correct" phrase that I myself added at the same time as I added this.

@qdii: Sorry that this has spun out of hand (it's my fault, too). Thanks for asking around, as well. Like I said, I've heard this brought up before, and I'm almost sure that I heard, about a month ago, a Swiss lady say "oui, c'est vrai que en Suisse on dit 'un ami de moi'"... No, I'm not a francophone. Yes, I can make mistakes (and do). But here I have the advantage of location that neither you (nor the other commenters) do, so please respect that and let me research the question in detail. I'll do a petit sondage and let you know the results.

Regarding your other comment of foreigners not needing to learn this... Excuse me? There are no rules regarding what foreigners should and should not learn, and there is a correct standard version on Tatoeba already, so what is wrong with adding a less standard one? It's properly marked, after all, and gives Tatoeba more diversity. Some people (myself included, no need to say) find these less-standard versions very interesting.

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 24, 2010 October 24, 2010 at 4:20:37 PM UTC link Permalink

>But here I have the advantage of location that neither you (nor the other commenters) do, so please respect that and let me research the question in detail. I'll do a petit sondage and let you know the results.

No, location is not an advantage for 2 reasons:
1) other NATIVE francophones, including me, know Switzerland very well. I listen regularly to the news on TSR (Télévision Suisse Romande) on TV5 and I have, along with many other french or belgian people, lots of Swiss friends.
2) If you live in Geneva or other cities in Suisse romande, there are plenty of inhabitants there who are not natives, but foreign employees of foreign firms, international organisations,; immigrants, refugees from all over...
In Geneva, the chance of hearing French from somebody who is not a native is extremely high. So not all you hear in French is correct French, far from it.

Polls you may conduct around friends do not constitute any kind of reference.
The only acceptable reference for a phrase is a PUBLISHED text by any author or journalist who are natives and whose work is acknowledged as being in the French language.

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 24, 2010 October 24, 2010 at 4:22:08 PM UTC link Permalink

>so what is wrong with adding a less standard one?

It is not a "less standard one", it is just plain incorrect and has nothing to do in the French Corpus of Tatoeba.

qdii qdii October 24, 2010 October 24, 2010 at 4:32:54 PM UTC link Permalink

@FeuDRenais I didn't mean to offend you with my remark. I asked around because the point intrigued me, as this wouldn't be the first time I learned something new about my own language.

My remark on what foreigners "should" learn was not thought this way either. I was concerned that someone new to French might think that the two translations were equally used, when one is common and the other is regional. The tag system, which I just noticed, solves this problem.

I personally don't consider your not being francophone a point here : I know several Englishmen who master French in a way I will probably never even remotely approach.

Thanks for taking the time to do the poll : this is interesting :)

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais October 24, 2010 October 24, 2010 at 4:39:10 PM UTC link Permalink

@qdii: No offense taken :-)

I'll probably poll the co-workers and professors in my lab, the majority of whom are Swiss French and would be able to shed light on this quite well. Contrary to what some people might suggest (though I don't know why they would assume this), I wouldn't simply go ahead and poll some friends (though why this would be invalid I see not - like you said, the tag system solves a good number of these problems). We can even go ahead and tag it "rare usage" if it turns out to be right.

qdii qdii October 24, 2010 October 24, 2010 at 4:47:38 PM UTC link Permalink

I totally agree with sacredceltic on the way to verify whether the sentence is correct. Actually Wikipedia acts the same way to ensure that a theory in science is right (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi...inal_research)

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais October 24, 2010 October 24, 2010 at 5:08:36 PM UTC link Permalink

I totally disagree. These criteria are too strict, put language in a cage, and make things like slang, colloquial expressions, and rising neologisms "incorrect".

Needless to say, the media is very unlikely to use expressions that the French (*cough cough*) would frown upon (or laugh at).

As an example, every village/town/city in China generally has its own local variety of the language (or just a different language), but the media is always in standard Chinese (they even get the northern accent right). By your argument, everything non-standard is "incorrect", and so the local varieties would have no place here (which, IMO, is silly - you just tag them and go on your way).

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 24, 2010 October 24, 2010 at 5:15:10 PM UTC link Permalink

> the French (*cough cough*)

What exactly do you mean with this?

> By your argument, everything non-standard is "incorrect", and so the local varieties would have no place here (which, IMO, is silly - you just tag them and go on your way).

We're not speaking of a local variety here, just an incorrect phrase by any standard. Prove your case with a single quote by a local journalist...or change your sentence.
That simple!

Demetrius Demetrius October 25, 2010 October 25, 2010 at 10:14:56 AM UTC link Permalink

(Clarification. I’m not saying whether this phrase is correct or not, I just want to comment on several issues. As you probably know, I speak no French at all.)

@andrusiak:
> This site has been designed for people who learn foreign
> langages, and sure enough those who consult this site have an
> obvious right to learn CORRECT phrases in foreign languages.
Well, actually, this is not the only purpose of this site. :o And some purposes contradict to each other.

Tatoeba is meant to illustrate all the language usage (at least theoretically). If some variant is incorrect by some standards, but does occur, it can be listed on Tatoeba.


Tags can be used to clarify the exact status of some word. Yes, right now they are not displayed until you click on the sentence page (that’s unfortunate), but in future such an option is expected.

The compeletely new database infrastructureis expected in PyTatoeba, so this will allow doing many worderful things... :)


@FeuDRenais:
> As a resident of Switzerland (the tagger, I believe, is not),
> I can vouch that this point has come up in daily conversation
> at least twice, and that the conclusion (unless I really
> misheard) was that "ami de moi" was the local variant.

I’m sorry to say it, but this is obviously not a very good reference. :)

If this is really used phrase, it should be found in literature (authors do employ dialectal speech often), or in papers on French dialectology.

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais October 25, 2010 October 25, 2010 at 1:20:39 PM UTC link Permalink

> If this is really used phrase, it should be found in literature (authors do employ dialectal speech often), or in papers on French dialectology.


There are plenty of colloquial expressions that would never make it to this level.

Demetrius Demetrius October 25, 2010 October 25, 2010 at 1:27:48 PM UTC link Permalink

> There are plenty of colloquial expressions
> that would never make it to this level.
The question is: if the expression is not established even in colloquial speech, do we really need it on Tatoeba? It will probably be forgotten next month/year.

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais October 25, 2010 October 25, 2010 at 1:33:56 PM UTC link Permalink

Well, then that should be something you bring up on the wall as a question of general guidelines, before making the decision yourself and posting it here.

On a side note, this thread is making me really, really tired. The fact that someone tagged this "noyade de poisson" just reinforces the cyber-bullying environment I hate most about Tatoeba.

I said I would look into the question, so why doesn't everyone calm down, give me some space, and wait?

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais October 25, 2010 October 25, 2010 at 1:49:03 PM UTC link Permalink

@aandrusiak: Thanks for going and proving me right. Absolutely zero tolerance for things outside the scope of that gigantic brain of yours, huh? Pity.

@everyone else: I'm going to take a break from Tatoeba. It'll probably be longer than two weeks, so as a personal request, please don't modify this sentence until I'm back (it's tagged, so there shouldn't be any problems). I'll do the poll at some time and let you know. Otherwise, I just can't focus on normal life with all of these attacks and "this sentence is WRONG WRONG WRONG!" statements.

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais October 25, 2010 October 25, 2010 at 1:50:54 PM UTC link Permalink

In my opinion, people should be open-minded and interested about new concepts, instead of trying to shoot them down. At least two of you never even gave this sentence a chance.

Demetrius Demetrius October 25, 2010 October 25, 2010 at 1:57:43 PM UTC link Permalink

> Well, then that should be something you bring up on the wall
> as a question of general guidelines, before making the decision
> yourself and posting it here.

I think this quote from the general guidelines is related to the subject:
> If we were to extract only the sentences in Italian, we
> would like that each of them are representative of the
> Italian language.

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 25, 2010 October 25, 2010 at 1:59:51 PM UTC link Permalink

The problem is not only that this particular sentence is wrong, but it examplifies the abusive use of "refugee" tags such as "Swiss French" or "Canadian French" that abusers use to hide their mistakes and this is not acceptable.
If we allow this, we will soon have a collection of nonsensical and incorrect phrases tagged "Chechen Russian", "Mauritian English" and what not, and the Tatoeba corpus will be corrupted and subsequently rejected by potential users, which will be the doom of this project.

Demetrius Demetrius October 25, 2010 October 25, 2010 at 2:20:28 PM UTC link Permalink

@FeuDRenais:
2 weeks later Belarusian sentence count will be bigger than Uyghur... ;)

qdii qdii October 25, 2010 October 25, 2010 at 2:39:29 PM UTC link Permalink

This thread has been going wide and apart. We are talking about this specific sentence, not about a general method of solving problems which just cannot exist.

First, "Tom is a friend of mine" falls neither into the colloquial category nor into the slang language. It is an everyday sentence, of neutral level of language.

Second, I respect your challenging two native French speakers on the basis that this could be a regional variant, but I think tagging it "Swiss French" without deeper investigation is showing us as much disrespect as not giving you the benefit of the doubt you ask for.

Scott Scott October 25, 2010 October 25, 2010 at 3:39:32 PM UTC link Permalink

I don't understand why some users in this thread are demanding immediate removal. This is not a life or death matter and there's no harm in letting FeuDRenais adequate time to gather evidence or think about the sentence.

Some users are also quite aggressive in their comments. Comments should stick to discussing whether the sentence is a valid sentence worthy of inclusion within Tatoeba and do so in a calm and polite manner.

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 25, 2010 October 25, 2010 at 4:03:10 PM UTC link Permalink

FeuDRenais has all the time to "gather evidence", however, he applied the refugee "Swiss French" tag before evidencing anything, which is unacceptable.
He was the one to actually request immediate removal of my @change tag, although this tag is perfectly valid, given that no evidence has been provided.
Tagging bad French with "Swiss French" tags is actually an insult to the Swiss francophones, who deserve better...

Demetrius Demetrius October 25, 2010 October 25, 2010 at 4:18:11 PM UTC link Permalink

> he applied the refugee "Swiss French" tag before evidencing anything
It wasn't a refugee. He added it simultaneously with the sentence «Tom est un ami à moi», as you can see in logs. I think he added the tag at the same time.

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 25, 2010 October 25, 2010 at 4:20:51 PM UTC link Permalink

>It wasn't a refugee. He added it simultaneously with the sentence «Tom est un ami à moi», as you can see in logs. I think he added the tag at the same time.

No it's not true. He applied it after the beginning of this discussion. I remember seeing it as it appeared in the course of the debate...
There are no logs for tags that are accessible to us non moderators, as you well know...

qdii qdii October 25, 2010 October 25, 2010 at 4:21:20 PM UTC link Permalink

Could this thread stop being FeuDRenais's trial ? It's obvious he was trying to help the community by sharing his experience of French from the very beginning.

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 25, 2010 October 25, 2010 at 4:29:24 PM UTC link Permalink

>Could this thread stop being FeuDRenais's trial ? It's obvious he was trying to help the community by sharing his experience of French from the very beginning.

Any substance to ground this assertion, maybe?...What exact posts are you refering to?

Besides, the "experience of French" by people around the planet is irrelevant here. Tatoeba is about sentences that represent languages, not about sentences that have been overheard from nondescript people and that "might be part of the language despite the lack of any evidence so far"...
If Tatoeba was this, I wouldn't waste one more minute there...

dimasadventures dimasadventures October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 1:41:13 AM UTC link Permalink

FeuDRenais is on vacation, and I wasn't intending to comment on this thread, but some people are just flat out lying right now, and I have my dignity to defend.

@sacredceltic:

As you may have noticed, I stopped addressing you directly ever since I said I would, and I think I made it clear that I never wanted to have anything to do with you. Obviously, this doesn't stop you from slandering me all over my own sentence (you could let other francophones handle it, but noooooo, you have to get your dirty hands involved). I suppose it's inevitable that we keep arguing, directly or indirectly, as two active users who criss-cross on certain languages. Personally, I would love to avoid these altogether, as you are, in my opinion, a miserable user and best avoided. There's no point, after all, in arguing with fools on the internet. In real life, you wouldn't last 5 seconds in a debate with me.

This statement: "No it's not true. He applied it after the beginning of this discussion. I remember seeing it as it appeared in the course of the debate...
There are no logs for tags that are accessible to us non moderators, as you well know..."

is garbage and goes to show just how untrusted you are, and why you should have never been granted the trusted_user status in the first place (I can only imagine that Trang did it as a move of political appeasement). I tagged the sentence the second I added it, so cut this crap and don't accuse me of doing something as underhanded as hiding behind a regional variant tag. Seriously. Cut it. You are lying, you have no basis for your accusation, and you are trying to discredit me when I have done nothing dishonest in my 6 months with Tatoeba. Enough, sacredceltic. I added this sentence based on my personal experience, and like qdii said, it was not meant to be to anyone's detriment. Once again, I repeat: Stay away from me, sacredceltic. I want *nothing* to do with you. Out of curiosity, I looked you up on other websites, and see that you pretty much rile up trouble wherever you go. Just stop.

@aandrusiak: My parting comment was harsh, and I apologize. However, you *are* unnecessarily aggressive (and, at times, derisive and condescending) in your comments - and this is not the first time. I don't do smileys, and I don't try to be political. I won't tell you nicely to do this and that. If you make stabs at me, I will stab you back as needed. Otherwise, I have nothing against you.

@qdii: "Tom est un ami de moi" (if it is indeed valid here, as you all doubt) would not be colloquial, and would be everyday. We'll see, I suppose. Personally, I don't see why it cannot be that the Swiss occasionally use it in conversation, but that it doesn't get major recognition. Also, qdii, please don't fall into sacredceltic's camp and act like I tagged it "Swiss French" to defend myself. When I added it, I had ample basis for believing it to be Swiss. In fact, I have a friend who, in my presence, has asked the Swiss this specific question TWICE, and both times has been met with a positive reply. I was thus fairly sure that it was true when I added and tagged it. You all overreacted and started attacking the sentence. I acknowledged this and said that I would look into the matter. Mr. Celtic then lectured me on how unless I found irrefutable publications and everything else under the sun with this usage, no amount of research I myself did would be good enough. aandrusiak kept butting in and telling me that the sentence was wrong. No one showed the slightest bit of respect to the fact that I said I would look into the issue. What kind of treatment is this, exactly? Mr. Celtic himself has added numerous English sentences that have been plain weird or wrong, and has been corrected by native speakers, and defended himself on the VERY OPPOSITE BASIS that he's now using to slander me. "Find me an expert" he said, "and then we can say my sentence is wrong". So that means that my sentence is wrong until proven, irrefutably, right, and that his is right until proven wrong? What kind of logic is this? Why don't people just realize already that this guy is a shameless hypocrite who picks and chooses his arguments, and then ignores your logic and resorts to personal accusations when he has nothing good to say. Why is Tatoeba tolerating this?

@Scott: Thank you, at least, for being a human being in this discussion. (yes, I was aggressive too, and I admit it)

@Demetrius: After all this, I honestly don't know if I want to come back to Tatoeba. If occurrences like this are a standard, and people just politely ignore them with sacredceltic waltzes around and uses this politeness to his advantage, then it's too much for me to bear. I grow too attached to things like this, and the quickness and narrow-mindedness with which some people have tried to destroy this sentence have really got me worried about the identity of this project. As qhii told me in a PM, this sentence would be as weird as saying "Tom is a friend of me" in English. I agreed, but told him that if a Canadian told me that that's how it was said, I would respect that and find it interesting, even if I demanded a citation. I wouldn't tag it @change and demand justification right away. That's my personal opinion, which I also think is a scholar's opinion, since, as Aristotle said: "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." (of the demanding users here, only qhii showed this trait, since he actually went through the trouble of asking around, despite being a native French speaker). If Tatoeba, however, is perfectly okay with this mob-attack mentality (and continued attacks even when the owner offers to research the matter), then I cannot imagine myself staying here.

That being said, I would like to finish writing Dima's adventures (now that I've started them), as well as one or two things. I would like to promote Uyghur further, as well. But it's a question of sanity. If I wake up in the morning, open my mailbox, and read users narrow-mindedly slandering me and my sentence, it's a really, really bad way to start a day.

Demetrius Demetrius October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 2:04:06 AM UTC link Permalink

http://tatoeba.org/eng/tags/sho...tag/FeuDRenais ^^

Yeah, I'm abusing tags a little bit. I will delete them before Saturday, so they won't get into the exported data. :P

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 9:27:18 AM UTC link Permalink

@moderator: this has gone way beyond acceptable comments on a sentence. This is now a clear ad hominem attack and menaces and I demand that it be stppped right away and that FeuDRenais be barred from the service on the spot.

I have "dirty hands", I am "miserable" and a "fool" ..."cut the crap"..."garbage"...because I denounce an incorrect sentence ?! Where will this stop ? And I am supposed to be the "slanderer"?

And he menaces other users of "stabbing them" ?!

Besides, it is unacceptable for users to use multiple user accounts to hide their identity !

I want also to emphasise that FeuDrenais, as he wrote it himself " I also knew that our distinguished tagger would come and create a fuss about it, and in fact he has, with a lag of a month or so." provoked this debate on purpose, just for the pleasure of annoying people here...

Swift Swift October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 1:07:28 PM UTC link Permalink

Answering the call for a moderator, I'm going to step into the fray here.

Yes, this has gone way beyond acceptable comments on a sentence. There is lots of blame to pass around, but this isn't the time or place for that. From now on, concentrate on the sentence at hand and restrict the discussion to it.

The owner of the sentence, FeuDRenais, has said that he recognises the concerns of the multiple French speakers that claim this sentence is not natural French and is consulting with native Swiss French speakers on that issue.

If anyone has information about whether this sentence is natural or not (though absence is hard to prove, unfortunately), please post a clear to-the-point comment here.

If you want to discuss personal issues, please do so in private messages.

If you want to discuss community issues, please do so on the wall.

I'm adding this sentence to my favourites and will return to it in due time. If there aren't sufficient indicators that this is a natural sentence, it will be deleted or modified according to subsequent discussion.

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 1:45:40 PM UTC link Permalink

>The owner of the sentence, FeuDRenais, has said that he recognises the concerns of the multiple French speakers that claim this sentence is not natural French

No, he hasn't done this, and this is precisely the problem. He even went as fas as insinuating that Swiss people can't handle French prpperly by applying a "Swiss French" tag that is in no way substantiated by any reference whatsoever.
Has he done so - ie what you say: "recognising the concern of french speakers around" we wouldn't be where we are now.
Anyway, this has now been transformed into ad hominem attacks and death threats that require police power rather than yours.
Besides, I can't see how a non-francophone can arbitrate about the correctness of a French sentence.
This sentence is actually a basic mistake in French that all francophone children are taught at an early age, and FeuDRenais knows it well and did it on purpose, as he wrote it himself earlier, to provoke an incident: "I added this expression some time ago with the exact purpose of illustrating this variant. I also knew that our distinguished tagger would come and create a fuss about it, and in fact he has, with a lag of a month or so"

This is obviously a completely unacceptable behaviour on a collaborative service such as this one.

dimasadventures dimasadventures October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 2:05:39 PM UTC link Permalink

I should probably go to the circus this weekend :-)... Things have been way too serious lately. Anyway, I'm going to address this with as much humor and as little insult as possible.

@sacredceltic:

You have, as I thought, decided to focus on the peanuts and ignore the main course. Or rather, you decided to make everyone else excited about the peanuts so as to spoil their appetite and to prevent them from looking at the main course.

Let me say what the main course is, because I said so much in my last post that it probably got diluted:

You lied. Deliberately. You didn't even do it in a clever way this time, but went ahead and stated that you *saw* the tag being added during the debate. You could have weaseled out if you said something like "I think I saw the tag..." or "I believe, though I might be wrong, that I saw the tag...", but you blatantly said, without a trace of a doubt in your voice, that I added it during the debate to defend myself.

Yes, I insulted you and said some nasty things, but these were direct. I'm guilty. You can always call me on these, and I won't deny them. What you did, however, is much, much worse and deserves attention. How can liars be trusted users?

Okay, but. Why don't we do this: admit that it was a lie, and apologize. I won't hold it against you, and I will not raise the issue again. If people argue that you shouldn't be a trusted user, I'll even step and act in your favor. Just admit to what you did and apologize. It's that simple.

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 2:17:15 PM UTC link Permalink

You're so funny trying to turn this argument against me, when the problem is just this incorrect French sentence that you admittedly wrote on purpose to provoke francophones such as me.

>You lied.

No. You added the tag "Swiss French" after I intervened in this thread. It wasn't there when I arrived...I always look at tags first, and I did when I saw the first comment by qdii that caught my eye and...the tag wasn't there or I would have protested against it from the start.

>admit that it was a lie, and apologize.

No, but I think you may have to answer to the authorities on why you menace people on internet with stabbing threats and call them names...
Under French law, these are clear-cut offences and I think I'm going to file a formal complaint if you're not banned from here.

dimasadventures dimasadventures October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 2:30:35 PM UTC link Permalink

Fine. You had the chance. I offered to help you. If you insist on fabricating truths and relying on the fact that tags don't have logs, then do it. There's no longer a question regarding which way I'll vote regarding any issues concerning you.

Regarding the sentence:

Haven't done the poll yet :-) Did ask my friend just now (the one who has asked people about this specific difference). He confirmed that there is a difference, though he added that he couldn't find anything online about it. Obviously, this does not constitute a strong reference. I just wanted to give a heads up and state that I am not completely alone in this argument. More detailed report later.

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 2:54:38 PM UTC link Permalink

>here's no longer a question regarding which way I'll vote regarding any issues concerning you.

Oh, there's a vote concerning me of which I am not aware? And you're a "judge"? Is this instance deciding what insults and menaces you're writing?
Interesting...

qdii qdii October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 3:27:32 PM UTC link Permalink

Hm focus on the main plate. I can second sacredceltic when he says that every French mom tells their children about that. "on ne dit pas un ami de moi, on dit un ami à moi", and I can understand the error since "de" is really often used as possessive "la voiture de mon ami", and using 'à' there would be a mistake. This is a well-known exception.

Looking it up the internet is an idea that hadn't crossed my mind yet ! And I bumped into that : http://forum.wordreference.com/...d.php?t=775189 this link shows that wordreference forums had the same debate some times ago, maybe just not as violent.

I just want to point out that I find it normal to commit errors, we all do. And to question others' sentences should be encouraged, not blamed, as it permits to have more accurate data in the end of the day. Lastly, you two are great contributors and no-one wants you to leave. Ignore each other, should this be the only way out, but don't stop the good job !

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 3:37:38 PM UTC link Permalink

>I just want to point out that I find it normal to commit errors, we all do.

But this is not an error, it was a trap set up by FeuDRenais, alias dimasadventures, alias...., to provoke an incident as, again, he wrote it himself : "I added this expression some time ago with the exact purpose of illustrating this variant. I also knew that our distinguished tagger would come and create a fuss about it, and in fact he has, with a lag of a month or so"

So where is the error?

dimasadventures dimasadventures October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 3:56:52 PM UTC link Permalink

@mods:

Is there really no way to check the history of tags? Might Trang actually have a log on her PC? Is there a way to compare the metadata records from week to week to see when these "Swiss French" tags appeared and in what quantities?

All that would settle at least some of these issues very quickly (though again, they're not related to the sentence).

dimasadventures dimasadventures October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 3:59:05 PM UTC link Permalink

P.S.: I actually had this discussion with CK recently, regarding the order in which tags were added. He has argued that it's chronological, though I don't think it is (because, e.g., Dima's adventures is not in any chronological order, despite being chronologically tagged).

So, I guess that wouldn't be of too much use here... All that I know is that I haven't added a "Swiss French" tag in over a month, at least.

Demetrius Demetrius October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 4:11:07 PM UTC link Permalink

The tag is present in the tags.csv file I’ve downloaded on “pet 15 okt 2010 12:05:20 EEST”. So I’m sure sacredceltic lied.




In fact, there is a way to prove that it was a lie.

Tags are exported every Sunday at 9 am, France time. This tag is in that file already.

First sacredceltic’s comment is on Sunday, but we don’t know the exact time. It’s written only “2 days ago”. HOWEVER, the exact date is kept in the database (I think it’s a Unix timestamp). So we have just to ask sysko or Trang.

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 4:19:55 PM UTC link Permalink

>The tag is present in the tags.csv file I’ve downloaded on “pet 15 okt 2010 12:05:20 EEST”. So I’m sure sacredceltic lied.

How is this a "proof" before publicly calling me a liar, mister?
We have to compare the date of the insertion of the first comment by qdii and that of the tag.
How can you assert this without providing these 2 elements to be compared?
Are you sure you are a moderator here, or just a defender of the desperate cause of this incorrect sentence?

Demetrius Demetrius October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 4:25:35 PM UTC link Permalink

The file is publicly available:
http://tatoeba.org/files/downloads/tags.csv

Anyone can download it until the next Sunday when it's updated.

However, we do have to check the date.


> How is this a "proof" before publicly calling me a liar, mister?
I have checked it myself. Now it’s the question whether other people trust me.


If someone also has kept the previous week’s file or other file, please check whether it has the line «549363 Swiss French» (it’s line 36037 in the file I’ve downloaded).

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 4:31:15 PM UTC link Permalink

>I have checked it myself. Now it’s the question whether other people trust me.

But how is that a proof and of what exactly?
This tag is applied to other sentences. So obviously it could be there as such since tags exist, as far as I am concerned...How is that relevant here?
And how exactly was this file produced? How do we know that you didn't temper with it to help your friend here who already tempers with multiple identities in Tatoeba? How do we trust people who use such tricks?

Demetrius Demetrius October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 4:35:41 PM UTC link Permalink

The tags.csv file contains all the tags in the following format:
SENTENCE-NUMBER<tab>TAG

The presense of line «549363<tab>Swiss French» shows that this very sentence has this tag when the tags were exported.

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 5:30:37 PM UTC link Permalink

>The presense of line «549363<tab>Swiss French» shows that this very sentence has this tag when the tags were exported.

And since FeuDRenais, alias dimasadventures, alias..., set up this provocation on purpose as he himself wrote, how do I know that he didn't first erase that tag and then reinserted it as part of his elaborate provocation plot?
In any case, and with such breaches of trust and setting up of such elaborate provocations and using multiple identities, I can't see how I'm going to trust you.
As one of the supporters of such deviant behaviour, you're entirely discredited in my eyes.
Anyway, again, you intervene, in English, in a debate about an incorrect French sentence, although, like Swift, you have absolutely no proficiency in this language.
So I'm going to say it again:
This sentence is PLAIN incorrect. It was set up, on purpose, as a provocation by its multiple identities author who himself admitted it, and the tag "Swiss French" is an insult to the Swiss francophones who don't do such children's mitakes.
So juggle as you may to try to hide this truth, at the end of the day, it is plain to see.

dimasadventures dimasadventures October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 8:11:42 PM UTC link Permalink

This thread has changed from violent to entertaining :-)

I was going to say "some day, we'll all look back on this and laugh", but why wait?

dimasadventures dimasadventures October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 8:26:35 PM UTC link Permalink

@sc:

As an aside, since you seem to have misunderstood this statement:

"I added this expression some time ago with the exact purpose of illustrating this variant. I also knew that our distinguished tagger would come and create a fuss about it, and in fact he has, with a lag of a month or so"

The verb "to know" here is not equivalent to "to set it up intentionally so". It just means that I knew, at the back of my head, that you wouldn't like this sentence once you saw it. Which proved true. That's all. I hope you're not offended that I chose to add a sentence that I knew you wouldn't like. Maybe I should be more careful in the future.

Calling it a "trap" shows that you have a good sense of humor, though, for which I'm glad. I was beginning to believe that you were angry at me.

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 8:30:27 PM UTC link Permalink

@dimasadventures, alias FeuDRenais, alias...
Why don't you stop these sick games with your multiple identities FeuDRenais?

dimasadventures dimasadventures October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 8:33:03 PM UTC link Permalink

Because I'm technically taking a break from Tatoeba, and using the normal account would involve too much responsibility. This way, I don't have to focus on anything except this thread and Dima's adventures :-).

So, a semi-break.

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 8:35:38 PM UTC link Permalink

What is this for nonsense?
You're obviously not taking any break and are actually exhausting people who are here for the love of languages and translations.
And since you repeated that you wouldn't deal with me anymore, why don't you just take yourself at your own word?
That would leave a lot of people in peace.
Get a grip! Grow up!

dimasadventures dimasadventures October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 8:38:58 PM UTC link Permalink

Lol...

I don't want to deal with you, but the problem is that you continue to try to deal with me. Addressing you indirectly is too much of a pain, so we might as well go back to this. Though, not for long.

I mean, if you accuse me of doing things I didn't do, how could I simply ignore that? I'll come back to this thread tomorrow to check any fresh accusations. Otherwise, good night.

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 8:56:08 PM UTC link Permalink

Yes, the first Google result is now the one on Tatoeba, so Tatoeba now serves as a reference for incorrect French on this.
Well done, Mr multiple Tatoeba identities and "expert" of "Swiss French"!

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 26, 2010 October 26, 2010 at 10:25:22 PM UTC link Permalink

Some people have no other occupation than discrediting Tatoeba in the face of the world when others are striving to make it a quality place!
A shame indeed!

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 27, 2010 October 27, 2010 at 7:05:59 AM UTC link Permalink

as CK has erased his former post, my 2 last posts don't make sense anymore (thank you CK for your honesty here: So you support multiple identities and erasing messages in the middle of threads? Great!)

So I copy CK's message hereafter from the email I received from the service:
At 8.50pm, CK wrote:
"I dunno if I wanna get inta debating about sub-standard use of language. However, I'd prefer that sentences here be what the average person would feel is correct. There are enough archaic, "less than natural sounding" and out-right errors in this database, without going out of our way to add more.

I know that scaredceltic doesn't like using Google for language research, but in this case, even though there are a few results, Google implies that the change people are suggesting should probably be made.

Try it.
http://www.google.com/search?q=...n+ami+de+moi."
"

Swift Swift October 27, 2010 October 27, 2010 at 9:53:51 AM UTC link Permalink

For the record, CK routinely removes his messages from sentences that he doesn't want to get email notifications from. While I don't know, I assume (not least given the amount of messages still being added) the same applies in this case.

Rather than jumping to conclusions on his motives, asking is a more natural step.

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 27, 2010 October 27, 2010 at 10:04:56 AM UTC link Permalink

Swift said at 9.57am>
>For the record, CK routinely removes his messages from sentences that he doesn't want to get >email notifications from. While I don't know, I assume (not least given the amount of messages >still being added) the same applies in this case.

>Rather than jumping to conclusions on his motives, asking is a more natural step.

I don't care a fig for his motives, whatever they are, they're invalid, since he can open a free Gmail account just for the purpose of receiving Tatoeba notifications and never watch them there...
Removing comments from a discussion is deceitful, as it distorts completely the potential replies to these comments, rendering the thread absolutely nonsensical and ridiculing people who anwser.
It is a total lack of politeness.
Beisdes, it's breaching trust and forces users to copy entire message contents in their replies as I do now with yours, since you support such unacceptable behaviour.
That's alright, from now on, I will not trust CK's or your own messages anymore and will systematically copy them in my replies.
You are very artful at manipulating forums, I do not congratulate you for it!

ludoviko ludoviko October 27, 2010 October 27, 2010 at 11:11:39 AM UTC link Permalink

<<Mais on ne dit pas 'un ami de moi', on dit 'un de mes amis'>> wrote Piotr, Modérateur, on http://www.languefrancaise.net/...ic.php?id=1967 , ABC de la langue française.

<<Mais on ne dit pas non plus "un ami de moi">> wrote pierrot11 on http://www.etudes-litteraires.c...ami-a-moi.html - maybe the same as before.

<<On ne dit pas "un ami de moi">> wrote loro3311 on http://forum.wordreference.com/...d.php?t=775189 . Same opinion: elisa2008, kme.

In all these three locations: No other opinion in support of "de". No mention of a possible Swiss use.

No useful result for <<"ami de moi" suisse>> on Google.

So I think the question of this sentence and discussion is now up to the administrators or moderators. It is their responsibility to think fundamentally about language use and user behavior in Tatoeba.

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 27, 2010 October 27, 2010 at 11:22:29 AM UTC link Permalink

Merci pour tes recherches, Ludoviko.
Mais l'auteur de cette phrase sait très bien tout cela.
Il a créé cette phrase avec cette étiquette juste par provocation, en espérant que je le contredirais et que la conversation dégénérerait, comme il l'avait vu dégénérer pour le même motif à propos d'une étiquette "Canadian French" de Scott.
Son objectif n'est pas du tout de faire avancer le Français sur Tatoeba mais de créer des polémiques.
Nous voyons que cet individu utilise ce service pour servir des fins tout à fait étranges avec des méthodes (pseudos multiples, ...) tout à fait réprouvées.
Le résultat en est navrant, car désormais, Google a indexé cette phrase, et des millions d'étrangers vont pouvoir croire qu'elle est correcte...puisqu'elle est sur Tatoeba !

dimasadventures dimasadventures October 27, 2010 October 27, 2010 at 11:46:52 AM UTC link Permalink

My thanks as well, ludoviko. Alas, if the internet was on my side in this debate, I would have provided some links as well by now :-)

Like I said, I'll do the field work and get the results. You have my word (on my honor - which is worth something... at least to me :-). As there's no rush, I would like to relax and take some time off before coming back to this question. In no small part because I know that whatever results I present will be contested again, and I want a small period of peace before we return to our fisticuffs.

Again, as I have never done anything dishonest on this site, I would like everyone to just relax and wait. I doubt this is compromising the French corpus of Tatoeba. If it is, then the Tatoeba corpus is a very fragile thing, and not at all suitable for use by anyone.

ludoviko ludoviko October 27, 2010 October 27, 2010 at 1:00:54 PM UTC link Permalink

@sacredceltic: Ce commentaire serait plutôt pour un message privé aux modérateurs.

@dimasadventures: How about

1) Change the sentence or give it up.
2) Relax as much as you want.
3) Do field work as long as you want. Internet and other.
4) Come back and present your study.

?

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 27, 2010 October 27, 2010 at 1:07:55 PM UTC link Permalink

>: Ce commentaire serait plutôt pour un message privé aux modérateurs.

Des modérateurs sont déjà dans cette conversation (et sont d'ailleurs parties prenantes en soutien de l'auteur), donc ils reçoivent ces messages.
Je répondais au tien, donc je ne vais pas faire de messages privés à des tiers pour te répondre à toi.
Tu as fait des recherches que d'autres ont faites également (CK: il a depuis effacé son commentaire mais je l'ai recopié avec son lien...) mais FeuDRenais, alias dimasadventures, alias... n'en tient pas compte parce que ça n'est pas son problème qui était d'organiser une provocation à dessein. Donc je te l'expliquais...

ludoviko ludoviko October 27, 2010 October 27, 2010 at 1:10:29 PM UTC link Permalink

dimasadventures> Alas, if the internet was on my side in this debate, I would have provided some links as well by now :-)

Yes, this is the problem: The internet is not on your side - and nothing else is on your side, as can be seen so far...

(Well, no doubt, the error occurs sometimes and can be found on the internet.)

So: Just change the sentence or leave it.

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 27, 2010 October 27, 2010 at 1:30:04 PM UTC link Permalink

>Well, no doubt, the error occurs sometimes and can be found on the internet.

Well, every error, on every word of every language can be found on internet, and a few users of Tatoeba use this presence on internet, in turn, as proof of their validity to hide their own ineptitude (that is why I strongly oppose these silly "Google challenges" and will never acknowledge them as elements of proof, as present moderators here constantly do. Google will not define the languages! Google is just a picture of everything, whether correct or incorrect. As a matter of fact, I have seen exemples in French when the search for the wrong form retrieves more results from Google than the right one, which just proves that a majority of people are bad at languages, and is no news to me...)

But beyond the present provocation, this is the issue that counts here: Tatoeba shouldn't be a new source of errors, giving them an additional aura of credibility to learners. If Tatoeba does this, it will be a disaster!

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais November 1, 2010 November 1, 2010 at 7:41:22 PM UTC link Permalink

K, it's done (finally). Well, not the poll, that won't be done, cause I'm too lazy (probably).

I did ask around, and did not get such a positive wave of support for "ami de moi" so as to make it a valid, justifiable alternative. My apologies for jumping the gun and adding this sentence, then. My deepest gratitude for your patience.

So, we're done here. I suggest we go through and wipe out a lot of these comments, since they have absolutely nothing to do with the Uyghur sentence. And the tags as well.

Ciao, ciao!

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais November 1, 2010 November 1, 2010 at 7:43:19 PM UTC link Permalink

(Actually, could someone delete my tags as well... As a regular user, I get the option to delete, but it doesn't actually do it. I guess a mod should just wipe clean the tags altogether, since I'm not the only one with this problem.)

Swift Swift November 1, 2010 November 1, 2010 at 9:41:41 PM UTC link Permalink

Actually, rather than changing this sentence that will just confuse things, let's delete this sentence and give the Uyghur sentence a fresh start without the baggage.

I'll give it a while to make sure the email notifications go out and for any last comments. Not that there should be any need. It looks like this has been sorted out.

Thanks for everyone involved for their initial passion and subsequent restraint.

sacredceltic sacredceltic November 1, 2010 November 1, 2010 at 9:53:44 PM UTC link Permalink

Err...no. This French sentence should just be restored to French and then it should be corrected as was suggested.
This way it will be possible to retrace its history and its debate about whether this is Swiss French or not, because it is useful for subsequent reference.
If we are to delete every sentence that has been debated or change its language, the database will just end up being a big mess.

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais November 1, 2010 November 1, 2010 at 9:59:20 PM UTC link Permalink

> Err...no. This French sentence should just be restored to French and then it should be corrected as was suggested.


We could, but it would just be a duplicate of the one added before it. And then it would be deleted as a duplicate, with identical results.

sacredceltic sacredceltic November 1, 2010 November 1, 2010 at 10:06:23 PM UTC link Permalink

>We could, but it would just be a duplicate of the one added before it. And then it would be deleted as a duplicate, with identical results.

No, there are actually other equivalent possibilities in French. As you admit it is wrong, just release the sentence and I or another francophone will take care of it!

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais November 1, 2010 November 1, 2010 at 10:19:25 PM UTC link Permalink

I took care of it.

sacredceltic sacredceltic November 1, 2010 November 1, 2010 at 10:28:29 PM UTC link Permalink

but this one already exists...you're creating a duplicate...

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais November 1, 2010 November 1, 2010 at 10:35:04 PM UTC link Permalink

Oui, j'ai pas constaté ça. Bon, un deuxième essai !

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais November 1, 2010 November 1, 2010 at 10:36:58 PM UTC link Permalink

Ça te va maintenant ?

sacredceltic sacredceltic November 1, 2010 November 1, 2010 at 10:51:37 PM UTC link Permalink

>Ça te va maintenant ?

Si cette phrase reste comme elle est maintenant, oui, mais pour le reste, je ne peux pas dire que je sois satisfait d'avoir été sanctionné pour cette bêtise et pour m'être fait insulté par toi. Je trouve cela tout à fait inacceptable !

If this sentence remains as it is now, yes, but for the rest, I can't say I'm satisfied to have been sanctioned for this folly and for having been insulted by you. I find it absolutely unacceptable!

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais November 1, 2010 November 1, 2010 at 11:03:09 PM UTC link Permalink

Oui, on a fait pas mal de bruit cette fois-ci, toi et moi...

sacredceltic sacredceltic November 1, 2010 November 1, 2010 at 11:04:31 PM UTC link Permalink

>Oui, on a fait pas mal de bruit cette fois-ci, toi et moi...

Oui, et c'est ce que tu avais calculé ! les insultes restent.

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais November 1, 2010 November 1, 2010 at 11:24:33 PM UTC link Permalink

Hélas... je ne suis pas assez doué pour calculer un truc pareil. Qu'est-ce que tu veux que je fasse avec les insultes ? Je serais content de les mettre dans un poubelle si tu m'en donnais une.

Mais bon, il faut nettoyer ce fil un peu. J'ai pas envie de le faire maintenant, mais je vais commencer par punir ce bon-à-rien dimasadventures demain, t'inquiète. C'est une promesse.

sacredceltic sacredceltic November 1, 2010 November 1, 2010 at 11:29:47 PM UTC link Permalink

Je suis formellement opposé à la destruction des commentaire auxquels il a déjà été répondu.
J'ai pris copie de cette conversation. Si tu l'effaces, je la recollerai en citant mes sources...

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais November 1, 2010 November 1, 2010 at 11:32:04 PM UTC link Permalink

En fait, moi aussi. Alors, on le laisse comme il est ?

sacredceltic sacredceltic November 1, 2010 November 1, 2010 at 11:47:33 PM UTC link Permalink

je ne supprime jamais rien, moi.

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais November 2, 2010 November 2, 2010 at 12:33:31 AM UTC link Permalink

Ça serait impardonnable, en plus, vu comme ce fil fait désormais une grande partie de l'histoire de Tatoeba. L'autre - concernant le politicien et le scandale publicisé - n'est pas si longe comme ceci. Ça doit être un record :-)

On fête ! J'apporterai du chocolat suisse et du fromage Gruyère. Des fricadelles et des frites belges pour toi ?

sacredceltic sacredceltic November 2, 2010 November 2, 2010 at 12:37:35 AM UTC link Permalink

T'essaies de la jouer cool pour récupérer ton statut ?
Moi je pense que tu es "trusted" pour insulter les gens et monter des coups fourrés...

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais November 2, 2010 November 2, 2010 at 1:21:00 AM UTC link Permalink

Oui, peut être que tu as raison. Mais non, en fait, j'ai déjà décidé que je resterai "user" pour jamais. Donc, ne me soupçonne pas. Tu vas récupérer ton statut et moi je serai comme je suis.

Mais c'est possible qu'un jour - si je maitrisé l'ouïghour et on manque toujours des vrais ouïghours ici - je ravalerai ma fierté pour devenir un mod d'ouïghour. Mais un truc comme ça ne se passerait pas pour longtemps, c'est sûr.

Fin, on laisse les choses comme elles sont. Je crois qu'on ennuie les autres avec ces échanges entre nous.

Demetrius Demetrius November 2, 2010 November 2, 2010 at 10:12:18 AM UTC link Permalink

I took a liberty of deleting FeuDRenais's (I belive they are his) tags “Swiss French” and “currently under investigation”.

Is this sentence correct now?

If yes, can the others please delete their tags unless they are applicaple?

sacredceltic sacredceltic November 2, 2010 November 2, 2010 at 10:17:20 AM UTC link Permalink

>you can remove the @change that is no longer applicable, then I don't know how the "@tag abuse"'s limit is defined...

qdii qdii November 2, 2010 November 2, 2010 at 10:19:16 AM UTC link Permalink

I suggest we removed every tags since they are either unrelated to the sentence (but to the comments) or no longer relevant.

sacredceltic sacredceltic November 2, 2010 November 2, 2010 at 10:26:41 AM UTC link Permalink

I oppose deleting my tags apart from the @change which is no longer relevant (as long as the sentence is not updated again and the update is not incorrect in French)
No rule, that I know of, has been defined as to whether tags should relate to sentences, associated comments or a combination of both.
In the absence of this definition, I was entitled to use tags to classify and organise sentences in the way that I found suitable. I still find it suitable.

Demetrius Demetrius November 2, 2010 November 2, 2010 at 10:31:13 AM UTC link Permalink

I personally think that the presence of ‘in thread’ makes it easy to understand that tags relate to comments (I would prefer using ‘cmt’ as a single format, since we already have some ‘cmt on’ tags, but it’s a minor issue), so I don't think they do any harm.

sacredceltic sacredceltic November 2, 2010 November 2, 2010 at 10:34:38 AM UTC link Permalink

>I personally think that the presence of ‘in thread’ makes it easy to understand that tags relate to comments (I would prefer using ‘cmt’ as a single format, since we already have some ‘cmt on’ tags, but it’s a minor issue), so I don't think they do any harm.

I agree with that. The insertion of "in thread" in the start of the tags is acceptable.

qdii qdii November 2, 2010 November 2, 2010 at 10:52:30 AM UTC link Permalink

> No rule, that I know of, has been defined as to whether tags should relate to sentences, associated comments or a combination of both.

As for "rules" I don't know, but when tags were first introduced, this page ( http://blog.tatoeba.org/2010_06_01_archive.html ) tried to give a general idea on what tags were to be used for.

sacredceltic sacredceltic November 2, 2010 November 2, 2010 at 10:59:27 AM UTC link Permalink

>As for "rules" I don't know, but when tags were first introduced, this page ( http://blog.tatoeba.org/2010_06_01_archive.html ) tried to give a general idea on what tags were to be used for.

Yes, I read that, and took it for granted: "People will be free to tag sentences with whatever they want. "

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais November 2, 2010 November 2, 2010 at 3:45:10 PM UTC link Permalink

Noyade de poisson :-)

Il est déjà noyé, ce poisson...

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This sentence was initially added as a translation of sentence #37342Tom is a friend of mine..

Tom est un ami de moi.

added by FeuDRenais, October 6, 2010

linked by FeuDRenais, October 6, 2010

linked by FeuDRenais, October 6, 2010

توم مېنىڭ دوستۇم.

edited by FeuDRenais, November 1, 2010

Tom est l'un de mes amis.

edited by FeuDRenais, November 1, 2010

linked by FeuDRenais, November 1, 2010

Tom est un copain à moi.

edited by FeuDRenais, November 1, 2010

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