sacredceltic
May 3rd 2012, 20:29
Je constate que beaucoup de phrases en doublon sont toujours supprimées manuellement par les gestionnaires du corpus alors que ça fait perdre les commentaires.
Je pense que c'est d'ailleurs l'objet de l'opération dans certains cas.
Ça s'apparente à une forme de censure...
hide replies
alexmarcelo
May 3rd 2012, 21:42
Oui, je suis bien d'accord avec toi. Pourquoi supprimer manuellement les phrases en doublon si nous avons un script qui fait le service ? Ces phrases ne sont pas notre priorité. Il y a beaucoup de phrases à corriger, à adopter...

Orphan sentences in
English: 40500 results!
French: 8131 results!
Spanish: 19 results!

@needs native check
English: 116 pages!
French: 30 pages!
Spanish: 8 pages!

Je pense que Tatoeba est plus qu'un site de traduction. C'est une communauté, et il y a des milliers de fautes qui doivent être corrigées... Il faut agir !

Travaillons !
hide replies
sacredceltic
May 3rd 2012, 22:17
Je milite depuis fort longtemps pour l'élimination pure et simple des phrases orphelines restantes...
Elles sont le cancer de Tatoeba.
En moyenne, j'en adopte moins de 2% en français, et la raison pour laquelle je n'adopte pas les autres 98% est qu'elles sont mauvaises...

Travaillons ! +100
hide replies
marcelostockle
May 3rd 2012, 22:33
I agree, though it should be made independently for each language, and with the consensus of two or more native speakers.
Right now, I went through every unadopted sentence in Spanish, and there's nothing I could adopt from there. If another non-Chilean user might check them too, I'd agree to have them deleted.
hide replies
alexmarcelo
May 3rd 2012, 22:37
There's something I don't understand: how do you agree if you yourself abandon all your sentences in English?
hide replies
marcelostockle
May 4th 2012, 03:32
if several native users look at my unowned sentences and won't adopt them, I asume they are poor translation.
That's why I would only agree when at least two or three native users verify there's nothing to do with ANY of them
marcelostockle
May 4th 2012, 19:52
However, I guess I'll adopt my own English sentences until unadopted English sentences cease to be a problem.
hide replies
Shadd
May 4th 2012, 21:10
In my opinion, if one is not up to take responsibility to correct what he writes, he shouldn't write it in the first place. The @needs native check and OK tags are here for the precise purpose of quality checking the sentences.
There's no rule on having to adopt only sentences in one's native language, and de-adopting sentences one wrote out of uncertainty, as we have just seen, causes unnecessary chaos in the project.
Orphan sentences create work for the whole project contributors, while adopted sentences only do that on the behalf of the adopter; there's no need to drop our responsibilities on the others, so we should each keep our own sentences and be ready to fix them if needed; by corrections, we learn.
The only possible reason I see to un-adopt one's sentence would be if (s)he wants to leave the project.
hide replies
alexmarcelo
May 4th 2012, 22:23
> In my opinion, if one is not up to take responsibility to correct what he writes, he shouldn't write it in the first place.
I totally agree.
marcelostockle
May 4th 2012, 23:07
not necessarily,
Personally, I'd be grateful that a non-native user would unadopt his/her Spanish sentences,
that way, if a trustworthy user adopts them, you can rest assured they are good translations.
Personally, when I look at foreign sentences, I could naively trust every one of them, but I don't, I look for sentences owned by trustworthy speakers, and I believe they won't be misleading.
hide replies
alexmarcelo
May 4th 2012, 23:15
That's why we have the "OK" tag. Every sentence should be proofread by native speakers... we must work on other people's sentences and tag them (CK with English, sacredceltic with French, you with Spanish, etc).

I know many users do this, but we need more.

If sentences are correctly tagged, there are no differences between "native" and "foreign" sentences.
hide replies
marcelostockle
May 4th 2012, 23:18
I agree
arcticmonkey
May 4th 2012, 23:22
I use the "OK" tag as well, but the problem is that only a handful of people can actually add tags. Everyone can (only native speakers should) adopt a sentence and even for advanced contributors it's less hassle to adopt a sentence. One click and you're done.
hide replies
alexmarcelo
May 4th 2012, 23:34
I see, but we still have thousands of abandoned sentences... as we can see, the problem is discipline.

It's time to establish goals...
hide replies
arcticmonkey
May 4th 2012, 23:50
But orphaned sentences aren't any worse than sentences owned by non-native speakers. Compared to a lot of non-native speakers who own English sentences, Borat speaks the Queen's English. I'm just saying.
hide replies
alexmarcelo
May 5th 2012, 00:04
I didn't say they are, but I think we should be more disciplined (especially corpus maintainers) and check both adopted and unadopted sentences.
hide replies
Shadd
May 6th 2012, 21:34
That is obvious and I agree, but unadopted sentences should be considered as being in a temporary state: if they stay there too long, they should be made eligible for deletion.
Shadd
May 5th 2012, 08:46
Wrong sentences which are adopted by an user make it seem like he tried to get a good sentence. Equally bad sentences who are disadopted make it seem like they hid their hand just after doing it, and there's no further difference between the two.
Everyone should be able to write a sentence in any language he knows; not being native doesn't mean one is automatically wrong, and as far as one is ready to correct his own errors when someone more knowledgeable points them out, it's fine. Unadopted sentences are instead a mass of random attempts who weren't even tried at their best: they're bets made by someone who didn't want to risk nor gain anything from it.

In my opinion, we should work to adopt as much correct sentences as possible, then decide a date for a purge of all the unadopted sentences, and from then onward, do that regularily.
In the meantime we should tag our mother tongues' sentences as needed (thing that, among others, I would be glad to be doing myself whenever the admins have time to reply to my PM).
hide replies
marcelostockle
May 5th 2012, 11:59
Well, it seems like you're not getting the point in unadopting sentences.
hide replies
Shadd
May 5th 2012, 16:50
I am, though I prefer practical and actual results to mere theoretical assumptions. People doesn't do what one expect them to do, so we should adapt to them, not the opposite.
They won't adopt the sentences just because they're fine to their eye, so we shouldn't unadopt ours in the first place especially if the only point we expect in that would be seeking their approval by adoption (and again, this function is already provided by the @change and OK tags).
sacredceltic
May 4th 2012, 23:50
+100
alexmarcelo
May 4th 2012, 22:25
Thanks.
Shishir
May 3rd 2012, 23:14
I've just adopted the sentences that sounded OK to me, but there are some sentences with voseo that I can't judge.
sysko
May 3rd 2012, 22:49
[some message have been removed]