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User55521 User55521 May 22, 2015, edited May 22, 2015 May 22, 2015 at 11:40:17 AM UTC, edited May 22, 2015 at 11:44:18 AM UTC link Permalink

Please note the destructive unlinking of #3459609 's translation by the user @Lenin_1917. The sentences were clearly good matches (in fact, the French and the English were added by the same user).

I’d like to ask the administrations to do something to prevent this from happening. Also, please link the sentences back.

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Inego Inego May 22, 2015 May 22, 2015 at 12:06:52 PM UTC link Permalink

Почитал вашу переписку в комментах. Независимо от того, на чьей я стороне, удивлён. Ну вы, ребята, блин, даёте! Как-то недостойно высокого звания участника проекта Татоэба, простите, ср*ться, как в новостях РБК или в роликах на YouTube. Каждый может выкатить предложение, провокационное или оскорбительное для участника проекта, находящегося с противоложной стороны политического спектра, но зачем?

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User55521 User55521 May 22, 2015, edited May 22, 2015 May 22, 2015 at 12:10:54 PM UTC, edited May 22, 2015 at 12:11:12 PM UTC link Permalink

[РУС] Если не отвечать в комментариях, то предложения удаляют. «Deleted as overwhelmingly requested», как в #2926572. А мне очень не нравится такая цензура. Поэтому и комментирую.

[АНГ] If we won’t answer in the comments, the sentences will get deleted. "Deleted as overwhelmingly requested", as in #2926572. And I strongly oppose such censorship. That’s why I’m commenting it.

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Inego Inego May 22, 2015 May 22, 2015 at 12:16:36 PM UTC link Permalink

К Вам тоже вопрос. Зачем добавляете провокационные предложения, зная, что они приведут к политическому ср*чу в комментах? Да, на Татоэбе нет цензуры, но Вы же взрослый человек и должны отдавать себе отчет в своих действиях.

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User55521 User55521 May 22, 2015 May 22, 2015 at 12:29:32 PM UTC link Permalink

[РУС] Я не добавляю провокационных предложений. То, что легкопровоцируемым товарищам мои предложения кажутся провокационными, не значит, что я собирался кого-то провоцировать.

Отчёт в своих действиях я отдаю. А Вы в своих? Вы по сути поддерживаете цензуру.

[АНГ] I don’t add provocative sentences. If some easy-to-provoke people find my sentences provocative, it doesn’t mean I was going to provoke someone.

I do take responsibility for my actions. And do you take for yours? You’re basically supporting the censorship now.

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Inego Inego May 22, 2015, edited May 22, 2015 May 22, 2015 at 12:38:33 PM UTC, edited May 22, 2015 at 12:40:47 PM UTC link Permalink

Вы лукавите. Вы знаете, что Ваши утверждения будут неприятны тем людям, которые придерживаются политических взглядов, отличных от Ваших. Точно так же, как Вам было бы неприятно читать аналогичные предложения от них (если бы они стали делать так же, как Вы).
И при чем здесь цензура? Я же не требую, чтобы удалялись политически окрашенные предложения, которые могут быть неприятны другим участникам проекта, а просто удивляюсь человеку, который сознательно их добавляет.
Хулиганство и хамское поведение пользователя Lenin_1917, который в отместку отлинковал корректный перевод предложения, я тоже не одобряю. Но я могу понять, что к этому привело :)
P. S. Тут было бы кстати вспомнить историю с Charlie Hebdo, но лично мне хотелось бы видеть Татоэбу местом обсуждения языковых тонкостей, а не политических дебатов.

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User55521 User55521 May 22, 2015 May 22, 2015 at 1:06:18 PM UTC link Permalink

[РУС]
> Вы знаете, что Ваши утверждения
> будут неприятны тем людям, которые
> придерживаются политических взглядов,
> отличных от Ваших

Более того, я знаю, что кому-то вообще будет неприятно, что я добавляю предложения на белорусском и украинском. Есть же люди, которые верят, что это диалекты, носителям которых надо бы пользоваться русским, — я с такими сталкивался в интернете не раз.

И что? Не добавлять предложения вообще?

> Вам было бы неприятно читать аналогичные
> предложения от них

«Бы» тут не нужно, у нас есть предложения, выражающией разные политические взгляды. И меня они вполне устраивают, я всячески за их наличие в корпусе.

> а просто удивляюсь человеку, который
> сознательно их добавляет

Я добавляю предложения, которые мне кажутся интересными и полезными. И я не понимаю, почему я не должен добавлять интересных и полезных предложений из-за того, что кому-то они покажутся провокационными.

Готов поспорить, кому-то вообще существование такого проекта покажется провокационным. Ишь чего удумали, корпус силами нелингвистов составлять. Он же нерепрезентативен!

[АНГ]
> You know your statements
> will be unpleasant to the people
> who hold to a political beliefs that
> are different from yours.

There’s more than that. I know there are people who will find it unpleasant that I add Belarusian and Ukrainian sentences. Some people believe that Belarusian and Ukrainian are dialects, and their speakers should use Russian instead, — I’ve encountered many such people in the internet.

So what? Stop adding sentences?

> You would have found it unpleasant
> to read similar sentences too

You shouldn’t use suppositional mood here, we have sentences representing different political views. And I’m quite OK with them, I support having them in the corpus.

> I’m just wondering at a person who
> is deliberately adding them

I add sentences I find interesting and useful. And I don’t understand why I should abstain from adding interesting and useful sentences because someone might find them provocative.

I bet someone might find this whole project provocative. Creating a corpus by non-linguists, such a bad idea. It won’t be representative enough!

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Inego Inego May 22, 2015 May 22, 2015 at 1:36:02 PM UTC link Permalink

http://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/arti...how/guidelines
http://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/arti...t-bad-behavior

A couple of quotes for you:

"Do not submit sentences that will antagonize contributors or readers.
Sentences in this category include but are not limited to those that:
...
insult languages or countries"

"We do not tolerate
...
Provocation: writing something that intentionally makes other people angry.
...
Generally speaking, we do not tolerate any kind of behavior that harms the collaborative and civilized atmosphere of Tatoeba."

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pullnosemans pullnosemans May 22, 2015 May 22, 2015 at 6:25:32 PM UTC link Permalink

I am not directly affected, but here's my two cents:

I think that we should keep tatoeba as open as possible, so I do not think that adding sentences that have offensive potential should be completely banned.

however, I also think that when adding such sentences, we should be prepared to receive some negative feedback and/or being asked to remove or change it.
I feel if there are people on this site who feel hurt or offended by the sentence, it would be very mature to just respect their feelings and at least change the sentence to something less in-your-face, for god's sake (btw, Lenin_1917's behaviour was by all means pell-mell and unacceptable, so let's just leave him out of the calculation here). I don't know whether going on about the *principles* of this site will lead to any real results here. instead, why don't we focus on the fact that we are all working together here, and that it is in everyone's interest to have a pleasant climate.

try to think about what really counts here: enforcing your view on this specific topic, or just taking a deep breath and then trying to work together?

come on, guys.

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May 23, 2015, edited May 23, 2015 May 23, 2015 at 12:55:09 AM UTC, edited May 23, 2015 at 2:34:33 AM UTC link Permalink
warning

The content of this message goes against our rules and was therefore hidden. It is displayed only to admins and to the author of the message.

User55521 User55521 May 23, 2015, edited May 23, 2015 May 23, 2015 at 12:30:34 PM UTC, edited May 23, 2015 at 12:35:32 PM UTC link Permalink

The problem with such an approach is that it’s highly unjust.


Less privileged people are used to seeing problematic things, so they don’t become 'insulted' so easy. And more privileged people are not used to being disagreed with, so they get 'insulted' at things that make them feel even a slight discomfort. But it doesn’t means only privileged people’s problems should be taken into account.

There’re quite a lot of sentences I’m not happy with. I don’t have the energy to start a dispute about #2832705, #530103 or #3743671 (outdated non-neutral vocabulary linked to neutral sentences), #530241, #530248 (even more outdated vocabulary which is even less neutral linked to neutral sentences), or #871099 (outright cruel), #3559181 (assuming gay rights are less important than someone's "right" not to see protests about gay rights), #4213741 (newest addition), lots of these... But I just don't have time to fix everything. It’s easier just to leave them as is — my sanity is more important. And I’m quite sure I’m not the one who thinks like this.

On the other hand, privileged people are not used to their values being questioned, and will feel 'insulted' by lots of things. And they have the resources (including free time) to silence their opponents and create censorship.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic May 23, 2015 May 23, 2015 at 12:43:40 PM UTC link Permalink

I like this sentence https://tatoeba.org/fra/sentences/show/4213741 because it says who Lenin_1917 actually is and I think this is important for contributors to know. I think this kind of individuals are actually dangerous and it's good that they are identified.

Again, I request that this user have his advanced contributor's status stripped, since he uses it to unlink correct translations that displease him, which is damaging to the precious Corpus.

odexed odexed May 23, 2015 May 23, 2015 at 1:16:28 PM UTC link Permalink

> I don’t have the energy to start a dispute about #2832705, #530103 or #3743671 (outdated non-neutral vocabulary linked to neutral sentences)

What's wrong with the word "гомосексуалист" and what makes you think this word is non-neutral? If you search you'll find this word in many dictionaries and articles including Wikipedia and academic literature.

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User55521 User55521 May 23, 2015, edited May 23, 2015 May 23, 2015 at 5:28:59 PM UTC, edited May 23, 2015 at 5:29:28 PM UTC link Permalink

I've clearly stated I'm not interested in starting a dispute about this, and you're provoking me to. Thank you for being nice.

If you read the Wikipedia you’ve referenced, you'd find:

> Ряд ученых (Л. С. Клейн, И. С. Кон, Г. Б. Дерягин)
> считают, что термин «гомосексуалист/гомосексуализм»
> несёт негативную оценочную коннотацию,
> а «гомосексуал» — нет

> A number of scholars (L. S. Kleyn, I. S. Kon, G. B. Deryagin)
> believe that the term «gomoseksualizm/gomoseksualist»
> has a negative connotation, while «gomoseksual» does not.


> many dictionaries and articles
> and academic literature.

Like I've said, this is an outdated term, not a never-used term. It is a term coined in the time back when homosexuality was considered an disorder to be treated, and it carries the connotations of that time.

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odexed odexed May 23, 2015, edited May 23, 2015 May 23, 2015 at 5:45:35 PM UTC, edited May 23, 2015 at 5:46:48 PM UTC link Permalink

Well, I do not provoke you to dispute, I just asked you since I haven't heard in all my life about any negative connotation of this word. Like you said, it's just an opinion and I don't share it. Besides, there are too many really less neutral terms for this word in Russian as to be so picky about it.
I still respect your opinion on this matter but don't be so categorical, not all of those sentences are really offensive or negative. As to me, some of them are totally neutral.

Ooneykcall Ooneykcall May 22, 2015 May 22, 2015 at 12:15:03 PM UTC link Permalink

>зачем?
Because we can, очевидно же. Свобода в полном проявлении — не её ли поднимают на знамена современные демократы? Конечно, не раззадоривать других было бы почеловечнее, но лингвистическая беспристрастность позволяет, как видим, этим не заморачиваться. (Я сам ничего на эту тему не добавляю, потому что не особо интересно в этом политболоте; а кому интересно, да Господь с ними, пусть потешатся, лишь бы не заставляли нас плакать, т.е. без личных провокаций.)
>сраться
По-моему, Имп нарочно хотел показать дурь товарища Л. — ещё одна монета в копилку желающих снять с него статус.