menu
Tatoeba
language
Register Log in
language English
menu
Tatoeba

chevron_right Register

chevron_right Log in

Browse

chevron_right Show random sentence

chevron_right Browse by language

chevron_right Browse by list

chevron_right Browse by tag

chevron_right Browse audio

Community

chevron_right Wall

chevron_right List of all members

chevron_right Languages of members

chevron_right Native speakers

search
clear
swap_horiz
search
Lepotdeterre Lepotdeterre June 28, 2015 June 28, 2015 at 8:02:51 AM UTC link Permalink

Is it compatible with Tatoeba's goals and ideology to post incorrect words and/or grammatical structures that people use all the time in everyday life and then mark them as "common error", or would that be misleading and potentially destructive? I myself think that letting users see what an error looks like is almost as useful as showing them something correct, but I can easily imagine someone reading a sentence containing a common error, not bothering to open it to read the tags/comments, and inadvertently "learning" something wrong from it.

{{vm.hiddenReplies[23281] ? 'expand_more' : 'expand_less'}} hide replies show replies
gillux gillux June 28, 2015 June 28, 2015 at 8:25:13 AM UTC link Permalink

Yes, I don’t think such sentences go against Tatoeba’s goals. The guidelines say “We want sentences that a native speaker would actually use” ¹, so giving an error is common among native speakers, you can put it on Tatoeba. I think we rather use tags like “casual” however.

1. http://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/arti...s,-not-word-fo

> I can easily imagine someone reading a sentence containing a common error, not bothering to open it to read the tags/comments, and inadvertently "learning" something wrong from it.

That’s what you get from learning sentences out of context. And this is true for correct sentences too. If you learn a grammatically correct sentence without knowing it’s exclusively used in, let’s say business context, you’re learning something wrong by thinking it could be used casually.

{{vm.hiddenReplies[23282] ? 'expand_more' : 'expand_less'}} hide replies show replies
CK CK June 28, 2015, edited October 30, 2019 June 28, 2015 at 8:30:27 AM UTC, edited October 30, 2019 at 10:17:28 AM UTC link Permalink

[not needed anymore- removed by CK]

{{vm.hiddenReplies[23283] ? 'expand_more' : 'expand_less'}} hide replies show replies
Lepotdeterre Lepotdeterre June 28, 2015, edited June 28, 2015 June 28, 2015 at 8:36:21 AM UTC, edited June 28, 2015 at 8:36:58 AM UTC link Permalink

>I think we rather use tags like “casual” however.

I think there's a notable difference between casual and wrong - it is possible for something to be casual but still be in accordance with a language's official rules. For example, "what's up" in English is casual, but it doesn't contain any mistakes.

>That’s what you get from learning sentences out of context. And this is true for correct >sentences too. If you learn a grammatically correct sentence without knowing it’s >exclusively used in, let’s say business context, you’re learning something wrong by >thinking it could be used casually.

I definitely agree with this. As I'm translating some general English sentences, I am continually aware of how some of my translations only reflect single meanings of the original sentences, such that it would be easy for a hypothetical amateur learner to use them in the wrong context. I try to post multiple translations where possible, but whereas that helps a Macedonian speaker learning English, it doesn't necessarily help an English speaker learning Macedonian. However, analysing multiple sentences comparatively should allow one to deduce what's to be used in what context, I suppose.



Guybrush88 Guybrush88 June 28, 2015, edited June 28, 2015 June 28, 2015 at 8:36:49 AM UTC, edited June 28, 2015 at 8:38:38 AM UTC link Permalink

> Many of the projects that use the data from tatoeba.org, only use the sentences and don't use the tags and comments. (http://bit.ly/tatoebalinks)

> I'd hate to be learning Macedonian, using one of your sentences, thinking that I was learning something that was natural, if it wasn't.

Personally I think this is pretty unrelated to Tatoeba itself. I don't think it's Tatoeba users' fault if other websites decide to use just the sentences and not tags and comments when using Tatoeba sentences for their own projects. If I add a sentence to Tatoeba and I tag or comment it in a certain way, I don't think it's my fault if another project use my sentence and omits some information I gave on the original sentence

Lepotdeterre Lepotdeterre June 28, 2015 June 28, 2015 at 8:40:06 AM UTC link Permalink

>I'd suggest not contributing such sentences unless you actually use them yourself.

I don't want to contribute such sentences either - I would find it annoying. I was just curious as to what other members think. However, about the "unless you actually use them yourself" part, I don't see how that's important - I might consciously use something wrong myself, just because it's mainstream.

>I'd hate to be learning Macedonian, using one of your sentences, thinking that I was >learning something that was natural, if it wasn't.

There would be no problem with something being natural or unnatural - I was specifically referring to very common errors, which sound natural to native speakers, but which violate standard Macedonian's rules nonetheless. I would never post something random, sounding like "I were into the bus", and mark it as wrong, just so as to illustrate one of infinite possible incorrect ways to say "I was on the bus".

al_ex_an_der al_ex_an_der June 28, 2015 June 28, 2015 at 10:10:38 AM UTC link Permalink

> I myself think that letting users see what an error looks like is almost as useful as showing them something correct

As far as tatoeba is concerned, it's aim is definitely NOT to register errors, but in the contrary to display examples showing what is considered correct use in a given language.

To register, analyse and comment common errors is certainly useful too. But tatoeba would be the wrongest place for that.

{{vm.hiddenReplies[23287] ? 'expand_more' : 'expand_less'}} hide replies show replies
Ooneykcall Ooneykcall June 28, 2015 June 28, 2015 at 11:14:55 AM UTC link Permalink

I thought we aim to provide "natural" sentences, aren't we?