Well, as the original sentence "She's really persistent, Shinobu is. I think I might be out-stubborned." was meaningless, I adopted it and put my own.
Still, it would be nice if a native could have a look...
@mookeee
As Japanese is not my mother tongue I prefer to stick to the correct grammar.
Furthermore, Tatoeba being (also) an educational tool, I believe it is better to use only correct grammar.
So, I will replace "相談を受けた" with "相談した".
Thanks again for your help.
It is a matter of your standpoint. If you think the grammar should rule the language it will be considered incorrect. If you think the grammar should follow the actual usage it will be considered correct.
What I can say is the example is not too unnatural to me.
As your friend says,it is not really rare to use 相談を受ける for the meaning opposite to the definition I said. I think, however, in most cases it is used for consulting a specialist. I personally got accustomed to the usage for specialists and don't deny it.
@mookeee
I follow your definition for 「相談を受ける」:
「相談を受ける」というのは本来、他者から助言を求められることを言う表現だからです。
...
「弟の相談を受けた」では弟が私に助言、説明、手助けを求めたように受け取られる可能性が高いでしょう。
and now I don't understand how is it possible that this sentence is correct...
Here also (like for Sentence nº1718916 )it should be "相談した", isn't it?
The French sentence is not easy to understand.
There are 3 people, "me" (person A), "my brother" (person B), and "he" (person C).
So, it is "B informs A that C was probably not at work".
If we remove the uncertainty (i.e. B is sure that C was not at work), the Japanese sentence would still be clear and the meaning would be "B informs A that C was not at work", but the French sentence could then have a 2nd meaning.
Indeed, the french sentence would become "Comme sa femme vient d'accoucher, mon frère m'a informé qu'il n'était pas ces derniers temps au travail.".
Which would also mean "B informs A that B was not at work".
@mookeee & bunbuku
This is the reply from a Japanese friend to whom I gave mookeee's explanation:
------------------------------------
This explanation is exactly the same as what I thought, that is why I thought first her sentence was not correct.
However, I know people using "～の相談を受ける" as "to consult someone", I've checked it with on-line dictionary, and found that they explaines as people use.
I assume that the original meaning is what I thought and what the explanation below says (*mookeee's explanation), however, the usage has changed to the one like her example.
I still and will use "～に相談する" like:
"（私は）今後の就職先を決めかねているので、（私は）弟に（それについて）相談した。"
(Since I cannot make my mind about my future position/job, I consulted my brother about it.)
However, I understand a lot of people use "～の相談を受ける" as "to have/receive advice from someone."
@mookeee & @bunbuku
I asked her what she meant with this sentence. And it seems it is what I understood.
Here is her answer:
今後の就職先をどうしたらいいのか決められないので、詳しい事を知っている弟の相談を受けた。
I am going to inform her about mookeee's comment.
And let see, what she will say.
今後の就職先を決めかねているので、弟の相談を受けた。
This sentence sounds like the speaker's brother haven't made his mind about his future position, so he asked for the speaker's advice.
The literally translation of English is 弟から助言（or アドバイス）をもらった, and I think it's also better than 弟の相談を受けた.
@mookeee
Please have a look to Sentence nº1723554. ;-)
(the Japanese translation is a correction given by my Japanese friend) but as he said "何だか哲学っぽくて、うまい訳が見つかりません。".
This is what I think about Japanese language, where a word, an expression can mean something and its opposite!
People who enjoy learning it are just masochist.
:-)
@mookeee.
Well, I am definitively lost (in translation).
I just asked another Japanese friend.
He was a bit puzzled with the sentence.
He first gave me a translation for "相談を受ける" and soon after its opposite. By the end (about 10 emails later) he told me that the sentence is correct...
It seems that not only me but also Japanese have problem with this expression.
The original Japanese sentence is a nightmare.
I got it from a Japanese but mookeee say it is wrong.
I just asked another Japanese. The sentence gave him hard time but by the end he said it is correct.
As for me I am completely lost.
@mookeee
I think I got it!
Thanks a lot for your explanation.
I will send her a email for confirmation (but right now in Japan it is a bit too early. She might be sleeping).
So, I will modify the Japanese sentence and propose a translation.
Let me know what you think please.
If the sentence is too weird I will remove it.
I don't want other people to be mislead.
@monkee
Sorry I write in English because I am very tired.
Thanks a lot for taking time to explain.
By the end I am completely lost...
These 2 sentences were given to me by a Japanese because I couldn't grasp the meaning of "相談を受ける". Then I thought (thanks to this 2 examples) that I understood it.
But obviously I didn't.
So, I wonder what could be the translation for 「弟は私の相談を受けた」.
I will ask her what she meant with this sentence.
(unfortunately her English is not very good. So she cannot give me a translation of the examples she is giving to me.)
I will also ask some explanations to another Japanese friend.
This case and ら抜き言葉 is totally different. In formal settings, ら抜き言葉 are corrected, but 嫌いな人もある might be corrected to 嫌いな人もいる because it looks archaic and often unsuitable for modern texts.
Why don't you add the sentence with いる as an alternative translation for English?
I personally don't like to use ら抜き words, but it's common especially among young people. Some people still prefer to use the correct words, but they know the usage for that kind of words have been changing.
I didn't know ある also could be used for creatures until you told me because いる is too common for me.
@mookeee & @bunbuku
First of all thanks a lot for your comments.
Indeed I noticed that 90% of the people I know in Japan didn't know this grammar rule (and use "いる"). (but contrary to me they can speak fluently... :-) )
I don't know what is the best, to use correct form or to use the most commonly use form...
It is a bit like this "ら抜き" rule, should I say "着られる" or just "着れる"...
So, really, I don't know what to do with this sentence. Keep "ある" or replace with "いる".
@Christophe
I looked at definitions of いる on a dictionary and it seems you're right. However, most people tend to use it for a creature even though it is not in a certain place.
I don't say ある should be changed in your sentence, but I just want to tell you it's not common usage nowadays.
いる is used to express that a creature is in a certain place.
But referring to characteristics of a living creature, ある should be used.
Well, that's the grammar rule. But I also noticed that my Japanese friends most of the time ignore it.
So, now if you want me to change "ある" to "いる" I would do it.
@CK
The Japanese sentences I submit are from Japanese people.
Either, some sentences they gave me as example on how to use a word, an expression, etc, either a correction they gave me to a sentence I wrote to them in an email.
I would not put a Japanese sentence otherwise (well unless it is a basic one like "私はクリスです" ;-) ).
Thanks. Correction done.
Notice that this and a couple of other sentences you own have a "space" character at the beginning of the sentence that needs to be removed.
http://tatoeba.org/sentences/show/1684511
" 後で、また寝てみようと思います。" (Christophe)
http://tatoeba.org/sentences/show/1629014
" 背中にたきぎを背負って歩きながら、本を読んだそうである。 " (Christophe)
http://tatoeba.org/sentences/show/1621767
" 詩歌とは、詩や短歌のことです。" (Christophe)
It is not true that both of the parents tried hard to search their daughter.
Done. I removed "there".
Thanks.
Still, it would be nice if a native could have a look...
Could a native fix it? (please)
As Japanese is not my mother tongue I prefer to stick to the correct grammar.
Furthermore, Tatoeba being (also) an educational tool, I believe it is better to use only correct grammar.
So, I will replace "相談を受けた" with "相談した".
Thanks again for your help.
What I can say is the example is not too unnatural to me.
But if I want this sentence to be grammatically correct I should replace "相談を受けた" with "相談した", isn't it?
That's because the correct translation of "相談を受ける" is "be consulted".
Like for example this sentence seems to be correct:
友人から息子の教育について相談を受けた。
I was consulted by a friend about his son's education.
[thanks a lot for your time and sorry to bother you so much.]
I follow your definition for 「相談を受ける」:
「相談を受ける」というのは本来、他者から助言を求められることを言う表現だからです。
...
「弟の相談を受けた」では弟が私に助言、説明、手助けを求めたように受け取られる可能性が高いでしょう。
and now I don't understand how is it possible that this sentence is correct...
Here also (like for Sentence nº1718916 )it should be "相談した", isn't it?
There are 3 people, "me" (person A), "my brother" (person B), and "he" (person C).
So, it is "B informs A that C was probably not at work".
If we remove the uncertainty (i.e. B is sure that C was not at work), the Japanese sentence would still be clear and the meaning would be "B informs A that C was not at work", but the French sentence could then have a 2nd meaning.
Indeed, the french sentence would become "Comme sa femme vient d'accoucher, mon frère m'a informé qu'il n'était pas ces derniers temps au travail.".
Which would also mean "B informs A that B was not at work".
This is the reply from a Japanese friend to whom I gave mookeee's explanation:
------------------------------------
This explanation is exactly the same as what I thought, that is why I thought first her sentence was not correct.
However, I know people using "～の相談を受ける" as "to consult someone", I've checked it with on-line dictionary, and found that they explaines as people use.
I assume that the original meaning is what I thought and what the explanation below says (*mookeee's explanation), however, the usage has changed to the one like her example.
I still and will use "～に相談する" like:
"（私は）今後の就職先を決めかねているので、（私は）弟に（それについて）相談した。"
(Since I cannot make my mind about my future position/job, I consulted my brother about it.)
However, I understand a lot of people use "～の相談を受ける" as "to have/receive advice from someone."
Merci!
I asked her what she meant with this sentence. And it seems it is what I understood.
Here is her answer:
今後の就職先をどうしたらいいのか決められないので、詳しい事を知っている弟の相談を受けた。
I am going to inform her about mookeee's comment.
And let see, what she will say.
今後の就職先を決めかねているので、弟の相談を受けた。
This sentence sounds like the speaker's brother haven't made his mind about his future position, so he asked for the speaker's advice.
The literally translation of English is 弟から助言（or アドバイス）をもらった, and I think it's also better than 弟の相談を受けた.
Please have a look to Sentence nº1723554. ;-)
(the Japanese translation is a correction given by my Japanese friend) but as he said "何だか哲学っぽくて、うまい訳が見つかりません。".
People who enjoy learning it are just masochist.
:-)
Well, I am definitively lost (in translation).
I just asked another Japanese friend.
He was a bit puzzled with the sentence.
He first gave me a translation for "相談を受ける" and soon after its opposite. By the end (about 10 emails later) he told me that the sentence is correct...
It seems that not only me but also Japanese have problem with this expression.
Thanks a lot.
The original Japanese sentence is a nightmare.
I got it from a Japanese but mookeee say it is wrong.
I just asked another Japanese. The sentence gave him hard time but by the end he said it is correct.
As for me I am completely lost.
I think I got it!
Thanks a lot for your explanation.
I will send her a email for confirmation (but right now in Japan it is a bit too early. She might be sleeping).
So, I will modify the Japanese sentence and propose a translation.
Let me know what you think please.
If the sentence is too weird I will remove it.
I don't want other people to be mislead.
very sorry I misspelled your nickname in my previous comment.
(well I told you I am very tired)
Sorry I write in English because I am very tired.
Thanks a lot for taking time to explain.
By the end I am completely lost...
These 2 sentences were given to me by a Japanese because I couldn't grasp the meaning of "相談を受ける". Then I thought (thanks to this 2 examples) that I understood it.
But obviously I didn't.
So, I wonder what could be the translation for 「弟は私の相談を受けた」.
I will ask her what she meant with this sentence.
(unfortunately her English is not very good. So she cannot give me a translation of the examples she is giving to me.)
I will also ask some explanations to another Japanese friend.
In itself this sentence is correct though.
Okay, I will do that.
(and I will add a comment saying that it is not the correct grammar but the most commonly use form :-) )
Thanks.
I personally don't like to use ら抜き words, but it's common especially among young people. Some people still prefer to use the correct words, but they know the usage for that kind of words have been changing.
I didn't know ある also could be used for creatures until you told me because いる is too common for me.
First of all thanks a lot for your comments.
Indeed I noticed that 90% of the people I know in Japan didn't know this grammar rule (and use "いる"). (but contrary to me they can speak fluently... :-) )
I don't know what is the best, to use correct form or to use the most commonly use form...
It is a bit like this "ら抜き" rule, should I say "着られる" or just "着れる"...
So, really, I don't know what to do with this sentence. Keep "ある" or replace with "いる".
I looked at definitions of いる on a dictionary and it seems you're right. However, most people tend to use it for a creature even though it is not in a certain place.
I don't say ある should be changed in your sentence, but I just want to tell you it's not common usage nowadays.
弟はその会社（＝今後の就職先）で働いているので、良く分かるのです。
だから、彼の相談を受けました。
どう思いますか。
無理だったら、消します。
もし私が弟の助言を求めたのであれば「弟に相談した」とする方がいいでしょう。
「相談を受ける」というのは本来、他者から助言を求められることを言う表現だからです。
一方、医療・法律その他専門家の助言・説明を求める時には、助言・説明される側が「相談を受ける」と表現する例がネット上に多数見つかります。これはおそらく「診断を受ける」のような表現の影響で誤用されたのが一般化しているのだろうと思います。というわけで、もうひとつの税金の相談の例文
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/1718920
は私としてはOKです。
Few knows it and none follows it, I think.
But referring to characteristics of a living creature, ある should be used.
Well, that's the grammar rule. But I also noticed that my Japanese friends most of the time ignore it.
So, now if you want me to change "ある" to "いる" I would do it.
I believe いる is used for creatures and it's grammatical.
Yes, I do agree with you but the problem is that it would not be grammatically correct then...
The Japanese sentences I submit are from Japanese people.
Either, some sentences they gave me as example on how to use a word, an expression, etc, either a correction they gave me to a sentence I wrote to them in an email.
I would not put a Japanese sentence otherwise (well unless it is a basic one like "私はクリスです" ;-) ).