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どのようにTatoebaを使うか、バグやおかしな挙動を報告するか、単にコミュニティーと付き合っていくかなどのよくある質問にここで聞くことができます。

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掲示板への最近の書き込み

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掲示板（スレッド数：31）

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  1. Hello,
    I believe it's clear enough that we need a corpus maintainer to take care of the Japanese database. I think bunbuku is ready to assume such a responsibility. She is polite, she's been correcting a lot of sentences (especially orphaned ones) and she's been with us for almost two years.
    http://tatoeba.org/pt_BR/user/profile/bunbuku

    So, any objections?
    • > we need a corpus maintainer to take care of the Japanese database

      This is absolute, self-evident truth! bunbuku-san is a perfect candidate for this job, I think. I'm for her.
      Also, if tommy_san will ever express his will to become a corpus maintainer, he has my vote, too.
    • No objection, but all of the approval there is. If she’s willing to take that responsibility, I’d be very glad to welcome her as our new corpus maintainer for Japanese as we’re in dire need of one.
    • I can't read Japanese, but those comments that she's written partially or entirely in English, in addition to the number of sentences she's contributed, suggest that she's a responsive, respectful, and valuable member of the community. +1 from me!
    • I think too that she deserves the promotion.
      I'm also willing to become one, if you think you can trust me. (Or maybe later, since I'm still a relatively new member.)


      We need to decide how to translate "corpus maintainer" into Japanese, by the way. It's translated as コーパスメインテイナー for the time being, but I don't like this kind of katakanization so much. I hope we can find out something better.
      • I hope you both become corpus maintainers.
      • I do believe you would be a good corpus maintainer, tommy_san, but I ask you to be a little patient. I'm not saying you are not responsible or anything (a status update shouldn't be seen as a promotion -- it actually isn't!), but I do hope to get to know you better before giving you some abilities you may not need. Remember AlanF_US? We decided not to change his status at this stage of the game for the same reasons: there is at least one CM for his language and he's quite new in the project. It's all about priorities. Some languages have no active corpus maintainers, like French, and some corpus maintainers haven't been active either. That's quite wrong, isn't it? I do want to fix that, that's why we're looking for a Japanese CM. I'll be doing the same for French in a few days.

        In other words, one CM for Japanese will be enough for now, but I do hope to be able to count on you in the future.
        • OK, I understand what you mean, Alex. I thought I could be of some help with a status update, but I'm actually fully pleased with my current status. I'm not interested in gaining power or influence or whatever.

          You could tell me someday if you come to want more than one corpus maintainer for Japanese.

          Thank you for your kind comment!
    • Thank you all.
      Alex and CK has already show me the policy as a corpus maintainer.
      I'll do my best when I become a CM anyway. :)

      As tommy_san mentioned, コーパスメインテイナー is not good Japanese for a corpus maintainer. However, コーパス has been used for quite some time, perhaps コーパス管理員 might be better.
      • corpus は「コーパス」で定着しているのでいいと思うのですが、maintainer が問題ですよね。「管理」という言葉は administrator（管理人）に使っているので、できれば避けたいのです……。
        • やっぱりそう思われましたか・・・。なんとなくそう指摘される気がしてました。administratorを総管理人としたところで、やっぱり「管理」はかぶっちゃいますものね。
          「コーパス保守点検員」とかは？エレベーターのメンテナンス作業員みたいですけど。maintain(er)はよい状態に保つ（人）ってことですから、そんなに的外れではないとは思うんですけど・・・変かな？
          • > コーパス保守点検員
            え、なんかちょっとどんどんぱっとしない方向に進んでませんか？^^;
            せっかくのステータス変更なので、もっとかっこいい名前でお祝いしたいのです。

            「管理」にちょっと近いところでは「整備」かなって思ってました。
            「コーパス整備スタッフ」というのはいかがでしょうか？
            「カタカナ語＋漢語＋カタカナ語」というのはどうかという気がしないでもありませんが、「イベント案内スタッフ」や「プロジェクト運営スタッフ」などは自然に受け入れられる日本語だと思います。（とか言って半ば自分を説得しようとしてもいるのですが――。）

            カタカナを減らして「コーパス整備員」というのもありなのですが、なんか今一つさえない感じがして。うーん……。
            • しばらくぶりです。最近学校が忙しく・・・
              さて、corpus maintainerの日本語訳ですが、自分なりに考えました。

              日本語重視路線でいくなら、「コーパス点検員（係）」や、「コーパス巡視員」、「コーパス巡回員（係）」、「コーパス用心棒」という感じでしょうか。

              また、自然な日本語が見つからないならカタカナ語路線のほうがいいと思います。候補には、
              「コーパスメインテナー」（まんま？）
              「コーパスパトロール」（ちょっと仰々しい？でも地域パトロールとかあるししっくりくるかと）
              「コーパスモデレーター」（長い上に通じない？）
              「コーパスキーパー」（簡単）
              でしょうか。自分でもどれがしっくり来るか分からなくなってきたのでこれらのなかにもし皆がピンとくるものがあればいいのですが・・・

              役割や語感などからして私は「コーパスパトロール」を推しておきます。
              ２番目には「コーパス用心棒」です、理由は頼りになりそうだからです　(･ω･´)ゞ
            • ＞どんどんぱっとしない方向に
              自分でもわかってるんですよ。冴えない名前だなあって。
              わかってるけどアレが精一杯なんです。(^_^;)


              若いwakaさんのアイディアからだと、私は「コーパス巡視員」推しです。tommyさんの「コーパス整備スタッフ」、耳には心地よいネーミングではあります。求人情報誌にこの手の名前が載っていそうです。
              • I know I don't really have a say here, but in my opinion, out of all the suggestions, I like these two the best:

                コーパス管理員 - Probably the most accurate for the actual position, even though it doesn't quite mean "maintainer".

                コーパス整備スタッフ - I just like this one. It might be a little on the literal side, but it looks and sounds nice.

                I didn't mind コーパスキーパー either, but it might be too much katakana...
                • 非ネイティブの方も大歓迎ですので、日本語のできる方はどしどし意見をお寄せいただきたいと思います。

                  これまで出た中で、個人的に悪くないと思うものを取り上げて、それぞれの難点を考えてみました。

                  ・コーパス管理員
                  ぼくの中で、タトエバ・コーパスを「管理」しているのはやはりTrangさんとsyskoさんのお二人なんです。「コーパス」をつけても、この印象は払拭されない気がしています。

                  ・コーパス整備スタッフ
                  カタカナの多さはどうしても少し気になりはします。あと、スタッフというと閉鎖的な団体の一員という感じがちょっとして、一般の参加者から見ると「あちら側」にいる人、というように見えるかもしれません。（昨日書き忘れていたのですが、これはぼくがCKさんに提案された「メンテナンス・スタッフ」を見て思いついたものだということを書き添えておきます。）

                  ・コーパス整備員
                  これも悪くない気はしてきていますが、「整備員」って、なんとなくきれいごとでつける名称というイメージがあります。ぼくだけでしょうか？

                  ・コーパス巡視員
                  ・コーパス用心棒
                  ・コーパスパトロール
                  ユニークな日本語を見つけてきたなと感心したのですが、ぼくはこれを見るとタトエバがすごく物騒な場所だという感じがしてしまいます。

                  ・コーパスメインテナー
                  この路線はやっぱり検討する価値はあると思います。「メンテナ」「メンテナー」「メインテナー」「メインテイナー」のどれも、使われていない言葉ではないようです。どれかに決めて、慣れてしまえばいいのかもしれませんが、ちょっと逃げな気がして癪ではあります。あとタトエバにいる日本語学習者はこういうのを嫌う方が多いですよね（笑）

                  ・コーパスキーパー
                  「キーパー」は日本語では真っ先には「ゴールキーパー」の略で（『広辞苑』にはこの意味だけで載っています）、keep する人という語感は、このカタカナからは浮かびにくいかもしれません。

                  「コーパス○○☆」の形にするなら、☆に入るのは「員」「係」「者」「人」「役」ぐらいだと思いますが、この中では「員」が一番ましでしょうか。この字にみなさんがさほど抵抗がないようでしたら、「コーパス○○員」の候補を他にもいくつか考えられるかもしれません。

                  最終的にはbunbukuさんご本人に決めていただくというのでよろしいでしょうか？
                  • ＞最終的にはbunbukuさんご本人に決めていただくというのでよろしいでしょうか？

                    いや、そんな、最終決定権が私って。(-ω-;)
                    いずれにしても、もう少し他の方の意見をいただきたいところです。
      • You're now a corpus maintainer! :-)
        I've sent you a private message with some info you probably already know.
        • おめでとうございます！☺
          • Thank you. I really appreciate it. :)
            • Congratulations Bunbuku :D
            • Could you tell us a little about the policy you have in mind?
              Expecially I'd like to know whether you're thinking of deleting bad orphan sentences or not. I personally think (as I wrote here: http://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/sho...#message_16636) that's not the top priority for us. I'd rather like you to spend more time adopting and adding good sentences. What do you think?

              （タトエバの全般的なことに関わることですので英語で失礼します。自己翻訳はすごく苦手なので……。）
    • bunbuku, you have my support as well!
      Good luck!
      • Thank you, Eldad!
    • There are so many mistakes in the Japanese database.
      To clear up the mistakes is a huge work to do.
      I think it's better to let more maintainers for taking this duty.
      So I suggest two people to be the maintainer.
      They are bunbukuさん and tommy_san さん.

      Just a suggestion. :)
      • Yes, there certainly are, but you don't necessarily need to be a CM to help us correct them. It will be a pleasure to have tommy_san as a corpus maintainer, but not just now. One step at a time! :-)
  2. :: IMPORTANT ::
    We need a French CM.

    As you might know, we definitely need someone to help us maintain more than 200,000 sentences in French. Although our two other admins are French, they don't have enough time to code Tatoeba and go through all these sentences everyday.

    You probably know my suggestion, and it's OK if you don't agree with me. In fact, we'll be listening to yours, too. But you do agree that having like 5 corpus maintainers for English and 0 for French is quite unfair, isn't it? Perhaps "unfair" is not the best word to use in this case. "Unreasonable" is probably better. Just think about it: French sentences correspond to more than 8,5% of the whole database!

    We should have at least one CM for each language. This is the reasonable thing to do. Today we'll start with French.

    We've been through very unhappy discussions when I once suggested sacredceltic to be that person. Some people agreed (perhaps most people did), some people didn't, and we still don't have a CM.

    Let's start over, shall we? Here is a list of 4 users who might fit the job. Feel free to add new names to this list.
    1) sacredceltic
    http://www.tatoeba.org/eng/user...e/sacredceltic
    2) nimfeo
    http://www.tatoeba.org/eng/user/profile/nimfeo
    3) Rovo
    http://www.tatoeba.org/eng/user/profile/Rovo
    4) dominiko
    http://www.tatoeba.org/eng/user/profile/dominiko

    I don't even know if they are interested, though. We'll discover that as soon as we have a name.

    You can send me a private message (which I don't really recommend) if you don't want your opinion to be public.

    If I feel like the discussion is straying from its original purpose, I'll have to ask sysko to remove such messages. We expect solid arguments, not digressions. And these arguments should be related to the actual role of a corpus maintainer.

    Thanks in advance.
    • Sacredceltic has my support, as usual. I've nothing against nimfeo, rovo and dominiko but I know SC better than them,he has been here for a long time doing a great job, so I think he deserves it.
    • I associate nimfeo more with Esperanto than with French, but if he is willing to become a corpus maintainer for his mother tongue, I have nothing to say against it. At any rate, he is an active contributor. I’d support Rovo and dominiko, too, and I especially continue to support sacredceltic who I think really deserves a chance considering all the work he’s done for French.
    • i support the 3 of them. i believe they would give a great help to the french corpus of tatoeba
    • *the 4 of them
    • > And these arguments should be related to the actual role of a corpus maintainer

      What "the actual role of a corpus maintainer" is should be clearly define before it is requested that people give "solid arguments".

      My votes:

      1) NO (there was a long wall post by liori that more or less summarized all the reasons I would put here, but unfortunately the old posts are now nowhere to be found). As *one* argument, SC's productivity is offset by the productivity that other people lose arguing with him or being harassed by him.

      2) No comment.

      3) No comment.

      4) Yes.
      • > What "the actual role of a corpus maintainer" is should be clearly define

        I'll give you Trang's definition:

        (...)
        Their responsibilities were, and still are strictly restricted to the corpus: to delete sentences that are added by mistake, to delete sentences that are added as spam, to delete sentences that are copyrighted, to edit incorrect sentences that were abandonned by their owner...
        This is why this status has been renamed into "corpus maintainer".
        http://blog.tatoeba.org/2011/05...rs-status.html
        • Then my next question is:

          Can a user who consistently does many of the "things Tatoeba does not tolerate" here:

          http://blog.tatoeba.org/2011/05...-behavior.html

          be eligible for CM?
          • There is no such a sanction, is there? Actually, that's not our call. You should contact Trang and ask her to write specific rules about that, if you think this would befenit the community. Well, I don't. A CM's role is very specific, and if a user has been doing that well, he should be given a chance.

            A status doesn't have to be permanent. If we are unhappy about a CM as -- and only as -- a CM, we can simply restore the previous status.

            Tatoeba has some CMs who have always behaved well, but still they don't do what they were expected to do.
            • > There is no such a sanction, is there?

              There is. It's called "ethics".

              > A status doesn't have to be permanent. If we are unhappy about a CM as -- and only as -- a CM, we can simply restore the previous status.

              This is a famous sophistic argument. This is one of those things where a decision more or less stays once it is made. The effort to demote someone is a lot greater than the effort to promote them (not in theory, but in practice).
              • It's not an argument. It's just something we can do if we need to. This is called democracy.

                And you are very good at accusing people... perhaps you should read #3 again.

                I'm glad for your opinion, though. I hope other users can express theirs, too.
                • > It's not an argument. It's just something we can do if we need to. This is called democracy.

                  First, yes, it is - your argument is simply implicit. People who want to make a certain change will often say that it can be easily reverted, but this is rarely true. Here, you are pushing for a certain change and I am pushing against it.

                  Otherwise, why would you even write what you did? I did not ask you if statuses could be reverted - I know firsthand that they can be.

                  Also, don't use "democracy" as some sort of sacred word that cannot be challenged. Democracy is maybe the most efficient for governing a country of millions, but this is not what this site is.

                  > And you are very good at accusing people... perhaps you should read #3 again.

                  What was my accusation that you're now accusing me of? I'm not being sarcastic - I really don't know.

                  > I'm glad for your opinion, though. I hope other users can express theirs, too.

                  Yes, one hopes.

                  But, just so that I can get something straight once and for all:

                  Are you, personally and as an administrator of this site, stating that a CM who:

                  insults, harasses, accuses, blames, and provokes (with bad faith)

                  is still an acceptable CM provided that he/she does the mechanical functions of a CM correctly?

                  I know you won't answer all of my points, but at least answer this last one.
                  • My opinion has always been the same, and I'm sorry if it's not clear enough: I'm looking for a CM, not for a penpal. And the fact that I'm an admin doesn't change anything.

                    If someone 'insults, harasses, accuses, blames, and provokes (with bad faith)', he shouldn't even be here. As for sacredceltic, I don't think he matches this description. You do.

                    And you're right, I'm not answering your other questions. Just think about how you describe sacredceltic and how you just described me.

                    I hope we're done. Well, I am.
                    • Yea, we're done. This is depressing.
    • Alex, I welcome your raising of this important issue, but to tell the truth I'm not completely happy about how this procedure has begun. Asking the concerning person, if he or she is interested in the job and ready to be a candidate, should be the very first step, before such a proposal is made public. That's at least what I want to suggest for the future.
      • These names are just a suggestion. My suggestion, as an ordinary user. They have the right to keep their status if they want to.

        By the way, that's how many ACs and CMs were recruited. They were suggested on the wall. The final decision belongs to them, though.
        • Basically everything is at its best. The suggestions I've made just aims at avoiding a situation like this one.
          Tom is proposed, without knowing about this. Meanwhile the feedback is not very in favour for him. Finally Tom is again online and reads the comments (or has to face the lack of comments) on the wall. Maybe Tom is feeling like a looser now, though he never was interested at all to become a candidate. Even when he is telling that he doesn't want to become a CM, that may look like a forced retreat now. Ok, you will say our contributors are not as sensitive as Tom. But you understand the consideration I had in mind.
  3. About sentence coming from the Tanaka corpus and still orphaned
    (I'm posting as a new thread so that it will be easier to see)


    What about this

    1. if you're a native speaker and you see a orphaned sentence that sounds unatural, you had a natural one
    2 - you post a command and tag asking for the deletion of the orphaned one.

    At the same time I'm going to see to not permit the translation of orphaned sentence, and to remove them from the search engine (which will have the consequence to also remove them from the 'random', as the random id is given by the search engine)

    What do you think?

    I know the easiest way would be to remove them directly and start again, but as Tatoeba is also used for editing the index of the www-jdict.
    • > 1. if you're a native speaker and you see a orphaned sentence that sounds unatural, you had a natural one (You mean "you *add* a natural one," right?)
      > 2 - you post a command and tag asking for the deletion of the orphaned one.

      I think there's no problem with this, although I'm quite sure that we won't actually delete many sentences because it's hard to decide that a sentence is absolutely unnatural.

      > At the same time I'm going to see to not permit the translation of orphaned sentence, and to remove them from the search engine

      I find this great!


      There will still be at least two problems.

      First, when a sentence has several translations, both owned and unowned ones, you'll need to visit each pages to see if the sentence is owned.

      Second, even if you don't show orphan sentences as a random sentence, they will still show up frequently as a translation of the random sentence, which will likely to give native Japanese speakers the impression that this must be an unreliable website.

      I think you can solve them both by making a new option "Display orphan sentences" in the settings page and set it "off" by default.
      • It's true that today you must visit each translation to see whether the sentence is owned. However, I imagine that it wouldn't be too hard to change the interface to display the owner (if any) next to each translation. That would be useful for several reasons.

        I agree with everything else you said.
        • Ah, yes. That would be really desirable, too!
    • I'd like to ask you if you really want us to spend our time deleting bad orphan sentences. I feel that adding new good sentences would be much more rewarding and profitable. There are so few native Japanese speakers here, and it takes much more time to judge whether a sentence is bad enough to be deleted than to make a new sentence (at least for me).

      I agree that owned unnatural sentences must be changed or deleted, but I'm reluctant to approve the idea that we delete bad orphan sentences. They will go to the "low reliability database" in the near future anyway, won't they?
  4. [fra] Rappel !
    Merci de ne pas traduire les phrases orphelines (qui n'ont pas de propriétaire) car elles sont, par nature, suspectes puisque personne ne veut en assurer la paternité. La plupart sont des phrases peu naturelles ou médiocres, provenant du Corpus Tanaka.

    [epo]
    Bonvolu ne traduki orfajn frazojn (tiuj kiuj ne havas posedanton) ĉar ili estas kompreneble suspektindaj kiel neniu volas preni la patrecon de ili.
    La plejmulto de ili estas ne-naturaj aŭ malbonaj, devenante de la Tanaka frazaro.

    [eng] Reminder !
    Thank you not to translate orphaned sentences (these that have no owner) because they are, by nature, suspect since nobody wants to assume responsibility for them. Most of them are not so natural or poor, sourced from the Tanaka Corpus.
    • I've read through almost all the English sentences from the Tanaka Corpus, only ignoring the very, very long entries which are not useful for the kinds of projects I use the Tatoeba Corpus for.

      I adopted the ones that I felt were useful for my students and sounded natural, and added OK tags to ones that were already adopted by others.

      There are likely a few OK sentences left in this group, but the percentage is likely very low.

      There will be a higher percentage of good unadopted Japanese sentences, since they haven't yet all been read by our Japanese native speakers.

      Bunbuku is systematically going through them, but it's a time-consuming job and she seems to be the only one doing it at this time, so it will take a while.

      When it comes to Japanese, an unadopted sentence is perhaps just as likely be correct as one submitted by a non-native Japanese speaker.
    • [eng]

      I agree with CK's comment about orphan Japanese sentences.
      I want to make Tatoeba a good tool to study Japanese, so I'm eager to know what learners of Japanese think about all those unadopted sentences.

      [jpn]

      アドプトされていない日本語の文については、ぼくもCKさんのおっしゃる通りだと思います。
      ぼくはタトエバを日本語学習に役立つサイトにしたいと思っているので、日本語学習者のみなさんがこれらの文についてどういうふうにお考えなのか、ぜひとも知りたいです。
      • I come across unadopted Japanese sentences fairly often. For the most part, they don't seem too bad and I use them as if they were correct. (As far as translating them: I can't remember coming across an unowned Japanese sentence which didn't already have an English translation, so no worries there.) I have run across some iffy sounding sentences, and I usually post a comment on those asking if they are correct or not.
      • It's good to hear that about unadopted Japanese sentences. I usually tend not to pay them any attention when looking for vocab examples, just in case they're wrong.
        • kuma,

          This is still a safe policy. There are quite a few native-speaker owned Japanese sentences that you can use. Rather than learn from potentially poor sentences examples, it's probably safest to only study and translate from sentences owned by native speakers, and ignore unowned sentences and non-native produced sentences.
      • I've had good results using unowned Japanese sentences to study. The error rate that I've observed is quite low. On rare occasions I look at my flash cards later, realize something is strange, and ask a Japanese friend to see what they think. But this has only happened maybe 5 times in the last year, so overall I'm rather happy.

        (Also, the Japanese native speakers on this site who answer my questions and create example sentences have been a big help. I feel very lucky that they are around and active.)
      • I used to translate unadopted Japanese sentences I could understand. But then, after some alarming reports about the quality of those sentences Tommy and other Japanese members submitted, I decided to translate only the sentences created/owned by native speakers. That is, I avoid translating orphaned sentences and those owned by non-native speakers no matter how correct they look to me. As Tommy repeatedly pointed out in his messages, even grammatical Japanese sentences may still be absolutely unnatural and, thus, not just useless for a language learner (for a beginner, especially) but rather harmful. My Japanese level is simply not high enough to determine whether the sentence is good or not, so, as things now stand, I prefer to refrain from using/translating orphaned sentences and sentences owned by non-native speakers unless they tagged OK.
      • Ich finde viele der verwaisten japanischen Sätze seltsam und würde mir wünschen, daß Muttersprachler diese nach und nach durch natürliche, stilistisch einwandfreie Sätze ersetzten. Zum Beispiel hätte ich es für gut befunden, diesen Satz:

        http://tatoeba.org/deu/sentences/show/152508

        ohne viel Federlesens durch diesen:

        http://tatoeba.org/deu/sentences/show/2449219

        zu ersetzen, statt einen neuen hinzuzufügen.

        Meine grundlegende Meinung: Sätze, die zeigen, wie man sich möglichst nah am Englischen ausdrückt, sind nicht lehrreich und gehören getilgt.

        Trang hat mir in einer privaten Nachricht angekündigt, sich bald dazu zu äußern. Ich warte voller Ungeduld. ☺
      • Thank you all for your comments.

        I asked this because I thought there might be someone who's somehow making good use of those doubtful sentences, but it seems there aren't any. I'm still interested in whether there are any fans of orphan sentences (of any language). Please give me a reply if you're one of them.

        To those who don't distinguish between owned and unowned sentences, I strongly recommend you stop using Tatoeba that way unless you really want to waste your time. If you think that most of the orphan Japanese sentences are fine, that means you're not good enough at Japanese to judge. There are lots and lots of unnatural sentences that are literal translations of English, and many of them resemble the Japanese that beginners speak, so it might be especially difficult for native English speakers to find out what's wrong. It's true that most of them are good enough to make yourself understood. If you use them, most Japanese would understand you and say ニホンゴガオジョウズデスネー. But even so, serious learners must not try to learn from them.

        I'd recommend any users interested in this topic to read this thread where we discussed the similar matter three months ago:
        http://webcache.googleuserconte...clnk&gl=jp

        @Pfirsichbaeumchen
        I often don't feel like replacing an orphan sentence with my new one when I'm not sure if the sentence is really bad. You seem to trust us too much... we are only ordinary Japanese speakers. We can say "I wouldn't use this," but often we can't say "This is wrong." There might be lots of people who actually use the phrase I don't use. This is actually quite likely to happen since the divergence among speakers is significant. That's why I sometimes prefer leaving the original one as it is.

        I guess you want us to reduce the number of orphan sentences displayed on the site, but it'll take us centuries to correct the 123,741 sentences. I believe the only realistic way to protect learners from harmful sentences is, as I've written many times, to stop displaying them by default. If there is any serious reason that everybody should see them, then I'd suggest adding a warning message on every page of an orphan sentence such as "This sentence has no owner, which means its quality is doubtful. It could be harmful for your brain. It could even kill you!"
        • If the administrators support the idea that unowned sentences should not be translated, then I would think they should implement this policy via the user interface. Administrators, is there any reason why you wouldn't want the site software to prevent translation of an unowned sentence?
          • We've had some discussions similar to this one. I hope sysko can restore the wall so you can read them.
            • Would you be able to summarize the conclusions that you remember, the names of any of the participants, or when the discussions took place? Even if the wall were restored, it would be pretty hard to do a blind search for such a discussion. This is another reason why I'm really looking forward to the wiki going online.
              • > it would be pretty hard to do a blind search for such a discussion

                Not with a good Google search. :-)
                It's thread #15321.

                It's not exactly about orphaned sentences, but some of the ideas discussed there would be able to solve this issue, too.
              • It's here.
                http://webcache.googleuserconte...clnk&gl=en

                And "the other thread" sysko mentions is this one.
                http://webcache.googleuserconte...clnk&gl=en

                I'm really looking forward to the next version of Tatoeba, but since it seems that it takes a while until it completes, I think it'd be nice if something can be done for the orphan sentences with a little modification to the present version.
        • When deciding whether to use an unowned sentence or not, the first question I ask is: is there a native-owned sentence that uses the same word I'm trying to learn? If so, I use that. If not, the unowned sentence will usually do.

          For me, it's about the words, and learning the words in context, even with questionable "beginner" grammar is more useful to me than learning the word without anything around it. Of course, natural grammar is the best and that's what I search for, but as a last resort, at least I can get a feel for the meaning of the word even if a native "wouldn't say it like that."
          • In that case, you can make a list of words and show it to us, then we can adopt or make some sentences using the words. We're here to help you. That's one of the greatest thing in Tatoeba, isn't it? ^^
            We won't be able to respond to all the requests, to be sure, but we'll do what we can.
            I wish there were a useful system to do this kind of thing easily.
            • That's a good idea. When we have a suitable place (perhaps on the new wiki) for tracking requests, we should add it there.
        • I like the idea of orphan sentences not showing up under searches. (Perhaps a settings option or a search query check box or something like that would be suitable.)
          • I, too, have come to somewhat like that idea. Another possibility would be to show an easy-to-spot warning sign next to an orphan sentence, especially when it is displayed as a (direct or indirect) translation.
  5. I have a New friend.

    http://tatoeba.org/spa/user/profile/susy

  6. Hallo liebe Tatoebistas,

    ich gebe aus Zeit- bzw. natürlich Prioritätsgründen meine Aktivität auf Tatoeba ganz auf. Das heißt vor allem, dass ich die vielen Korrekturen an meinen vor allem deutschen Sätzen, die immer noch nötig sind, nicht mehr durchführen werde. Das Prinzip, dass nicht jeder beliebig Sätze ändern darf, sondern nach einer Korrekturaufforderung andere Mitglieder Zeit haben, zu widersprechen, finde ich sehr gut. Ich gebe daher meine Sätze ganz bewusst nicht frei für andere Korrekturen als die den Tatoeba-Regeln entsprechenden. Diese Nachricht nur als Hinweis, dass ihr nicht mehr damit rechnen könnt, dass ich die nötigen Korrekturen selbst durchführe.

    Danke für eine wunderbare Zeit und Zusammenarbeit auf Tatoeba und viel Spaß weiterhin!
    • Bonne route ! Le plaisir fut très largement et intensément partagé.
      Tu es la contributrice dont j'ai le plus apprécié la collaboration.
      Viel Spaß und Glück !
    • Muiriel! Rien que pour toi il faudrait qu'on crée un statut "membre honorable" :P Merci d'avoir supporté le projet depuis le tout tout début. À bientôt j'espère :)
    • Embora não tenha tido muito contato com você, é fácil perceber o quanto você tem se dedicado ao projeto. Esperamos tê-la de volta o mais cedo possível.
  7. OOLIII
  8. Sentence books in the XIX century (telegraph Age)

    No se si habia otros libros o diccionarios de frases, pero en el siglo antepasado se utilizaba libros de frases hechas para ahorrar tiempo y dinero en los envios telegraficos.

    http://www.xatakaciencia.com/te...-internet-y-ii

    Es curioso que tanta gente se pudiese arreglar con las mismas frases ya hechas y algunas palabras más.

    En internet no hay problema de ancho de banda, sobre todo con el texto, pero tal vez puede ser un sistema util.

    Los traductores, no son fiables. Pero se pueden utilizar frases ya hechas como las de tatoeba para comunicarnos y seguir la traduciones de esas frases.

    Tambien pueden servir para comunicarnos con maquinas (buscadores, etc). Es dificil analizar una frase pero pueden reconocer una frase hecha.
    ¿Como funciona X ?
    ¿Donde encuentro X?
    ¿Cómo se llama la canción de X?
    ¿Quien quiere una invitacion de X?
    Mañana a HH se celebra X.

    Es un sistema latoso (complicado), pero por lo visto en el siglo antepasado era viable usarlo.

    Perdon si es muy offtopic :P
  9. I am able to post messages on the Wall, but not respond to existing ones. I'm going to write a private message to the admins about this.
  10. Comment se fait-il que désormais une partie de mon interface se retrouve en turc ? Quels réglages dois-je faire ?
    • J’ai le même problème… :-\
      J’ai de plus remarqué que l’Espéranto n’est plus présent dans les langues proposées dans le menu « langue pour la phrase suivante » et que « tatoeba.org/epo/home » redirige vers « tatoeba.org/fre/home » ☹
      Y a-t-il eu des changements récents sur le site ? ☹
      • Normalement l'esperanto est toujours présent... Est-ce que vous avez encore ce problème? Est-ce que vous savez si quelqu'un d'autre a ce problème?
        • Merci beaucoup pour le retour à la normal du turc vers le français ☺
          L’espéranto est revenu sur les listes déroulantes de langues (j’avais été très surpris de le voir disparaître… mais j’ai peut-être rêvé).
          Est-ce normal par contre que les adresses du type « tatoeba.org/xxx/home » redirigent toutes vers « tatoeba.org/fre/home » : le pays de connection joue un rôle là dedans ?
          Encore merci pour les modifications en tous cas.
          • Pour le problème de redirection, c'est normal si la langue que vous avez choisi dans le menu déroulant est le français. C'est pour éviter le changement de la langue de votre interface si vous cliquez sur un lien avec une autre langue pour l'interface.

            Par exemple si votre interface est en français et la mienne en japonais, et que je copie-colle une lien dans un commentaire, ce serait gênant pour vous si le fait de cliquer sur ce lien change votre interface en japonais.
            • Ah oui en effet, ça serait embêtant.
              Merci beaucoup ☺
    • C'est parce que j'ai mis à jour les traductions de l'interface et certaines traductions n'étaient pas légitimes (mais je ne l'avais pas remarqué).

      Pour info la traduction de l'interface de Tatoeba se passe comme expliqué ici: http://tatoeba.org/eng/faq#translate-interface
      Un des traducteurs sur Launchpad a remplacé certaines traductions françaises par du turc =/ Ce qui explique pourquoi une partie de l'interface était en turc lorsque j'ai mis à jour. Du coup je suis revenue en arrière en attendant que les traductions soient corrigées. Si vous remarquez d'autres problèmes de ce genre n'hésitez pas à nous envoyer un email.
      • Merci. :) Pour moi tout est revenu à la normale.
      • J'ai passé du temps à traduire les noms de nouvelles langues tel que le berbère en français, ainsi que d'autres éléments d'interface, mais ces éléments apparaissent toujours non traduits dans l'interface en français. Que se passe-t-il ?
        Je trouve que dans la procédure d'ajout d'une nouvelle langue, la traduction de sa dénomination devrait être prévue initialement. Il suffirait de prévenir les traducteurs à l'avance.
        Sinon, on a le résultat actuel, c'est à dire une liste de langues totalement incohérente et désorganisée...
        • Il faut qu'on corrige les dégâts faits par boracasli. Une fois que ce sera corrigé on pourra mettre à jour l'interface en français. On va aussi restreindre les droits de traduction sur Launchpad pour éviter les incidents de ce genre.

          Concernant l'ajout de langue, on est plus ou moins obligés de passer par une phase pendant laquelle la liste est désorganisée. Mais je ferai en sorte que la mise à jour des traductions de l'interface se fasse de manière plus fréquente pour que ce soit réglés en quelques jours au maximum, au lieu de quelques semaines.
          • Vous avez restreint les accès à la traduction de l'interface (en tout cas le mien). C'est bien, comme ça, ceux qui sabotent l'interface peuvent y accéder, mais ceux qui œuvrent à l'améliorer ne peuvent plus le faire. Merveilleux ! On marche sur la tête...

            Il est urgent de faire quelque chose. Cela fait 2 ans que la liste des langues n'est pas à jour en français (et j'imagine dans d'autres langues que l'anglais). Il n'y a pas de raison que l'interface en français soit pénalisée.
            • C'est moi qui ai fait cela, et je m'en explique

              dans l'interface de launchpad il n'y a que 3 options

              1 - ouvert = tout le monde peut contribuer dès lors qu'il a un compte (y compris donc bora, et comme nous ne sommes pas les administrateurs et que c'est une plateforme assez lourde, il est fastidieux de demander à bloquer un utilisateur et impossible depuis l'interface d'annuler des mauvaises contributions)

              donc malheureusement nous ne pouvons donc pas garder cette option

              2 - restreint, pour pouvoir traduire il faut avoir le statut de "traducteur" sur la plateforme launchpad, ce qui fait que pour l'instant ceux qui ont juste le statut "simple compte" ne peuvent plus contributuer, ce qui évite Bora, mais comme tu le fais remarquer, gêne les autres

              3 fermée , seul les propriétaires du projet peuvent traduire


              la solution 1 du fait de bora et que la plateforme n'est pas sous notre controle la rend impossible à garder

              la 2 est fastidieuse, là dessus entièrement d'accord avec toi

              et la 3 évidemment n'est pas envisageable.

              Malheureusement on ne peut pas sur Launchpad simplement dire "j'autorise telle ou telle personne" ( ce qui serais évidement le plus simple, on en convient)

              Je suis en train de voir s'il n'y aurait pas un moyen plus simple. Je suis vraiment désolé pour la gêne, mais comme tu le vois, nous sommes aussi pris un peu au dépourvu par le manque d'options de la plateforme.
              • > Malheureusement on ne peut pas sur Launchpad simplement dire "j'autorise telle ou telle personne"

                Isn't it possible to create a new "translation group" for Tatoeba?
                https://help.launchpad.net/Tran...nslation_group
                • Yes indeed, but this take time :) we're going to make a request to the administrators of launchpad in order to have our own translations group
              • enfin bon, ça reste tout de même absurde d'avoir une interface mal traduite sur un site de traduction où de nombreux bénévoles travaillent sans cesse à améliorer les traductions...
                Evidemment, ça n'affecte pas l'anglais...
                • c'est vrai, dans ma liste de chose à faire pour la nouvelle version, ce sera d'avoir un module pour gérer nous-même la traduction (comme ça il n'y aura plus besoin de compte tiers etc.), là en ce moment je finalise le wiki et en je commence à regarder pour remplacer le mur.
          • J'en profite pour signaler que « n'importe » en haut des listes de langues en français n'a pas de sens. Les gens qui ne connaissent pas l'interface ne comprennent pas qu'il s'agit d'une liste de langues (De n'importe...vers n'importe ?)...
            « toute langue » serait plus judicieux.
          • J'en profite également pour signaler que « rapporter des bogues » n'est pas français. Ce sont les chiens qui rapportent des balles. Les humains, eux, « signalent » des bogues.
            Ecrire en français ne consiste pas à essayer de franciser de l'anglais de manière désastreuse...
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