Really ?

Tatoeba is not a propaganda platform.

It is but a mere fact. Just read Russian propaganda to make sure...

+1

Otherwise, the English sentence is not even correct (it should be something like "The Russians have the gust/cheek to...). But it should be deleted as it is.

I strongly oppose censorship of sentences on Tatoeba.

If you really need to delete this sentence, please first initiate a discussion about what sentences constitute 'propaganda' and how to tell propaganda from non-propaganda.

Currently this sentence violates no rules. If you want to delete it, please first initiate a discussion about changing the rules.

Tatoeba is, apparently, a ground for anything as long as it is correct from a linguistic standpoint. We accept that and make use of this fact if we must, that's how it goes.
This has been the general understanding of the Russian corpus community so far. If I disagree with a sentence, I can just contribute the opposite myself if I want. (Which I generally don't, since I find such bland statements futile and laughable. Anyone who thinks they could never be subject to any misleading propaganda must have been thoroughly brainwashed.)

@sacredceltic: Bonvolu ne konfuzi Rusion kun rusoj. https://tatoeba.org/rus/sentences/show/4197481

The definition of what propaganda is is plain clear: a Russian art.

Poutin employs hundreds of propagandists who flood the Net with propaganda making us believe that Porochenko is exterminating pro-Russian Ukrainians (ie Chechen mercenaries...)

This propaganda is so massive that it has become a grotesque joke on the Net...

The reality is : between the early 30s and the 50s, Russians starved to death and slaughtered or executed and deported over 10 million Ukrainians.

Stalin killed more Ukrainians than Hitler killed Jews.

We don't forget, for all the propaganda...

@soweli_Elepanto

Peoples get the governments they deserve and worship.
The current Russian government, which organizes the systematic murder of journalists (Ana Polikovskaïa,...) and opponents (Nemtsov,...) and sends its mercenaries killing thousands of Ukrainian civilians, has nevertheless an approval rate of over 70% among Russians.
Russians love dictators and imperialism, love subjugating weaker Peoples.
They are, alas, and only as a result of their own actions, the most detested of the Peoples of Europe...

> Peoples get the governments they deserve and worship.
https://tatoeba.org/rus/sentences/show/4197644

lie; (Russia didn't invent propaganda, for starters)
half truth, half lie, half omission; (Russian propagandists exist, so do propaganda workers in other states, such as the Ukraine - we see their sloppy work and chuckle; ethnic Chechens comprise only a small part of the rebel forces)
irrelevant (making jokes is a potent propaganda tool, itself);
half truth, half lie, half omission; (USSR isn't Russia, Stalin isn't Russian, a lot of leading communists at the time weren't full ethnic Russians, starvation happened in other regions as well - if it's a crime against humanity, which it may well be, it's not a crime against Ukrainians specifically)
skewed comparison (Jews were killed for being Jewish; plus consider the percentage. More Russians than Jews were killed during the WWII, but the percentage is quite different);
you are free to do with your mind as you please. When will the regional languages of France be officially recognised? When will the French government apologise for having once deliberately discriminated against them? Not in your lifetime, probably.

Then...
You being able to name but a few examples shows it cannot be 'systematic' at all; we've no way of knowing who was the real murderer, and everything else is unfortunately wild speculation (Cui prodest? tends to have multiple answers); Ukrainian civilians are being killed collaterally by Ukrainians as well and with no apparent regard; the next thing you'll say is Old Jo is worse than Adik (feel the exaggeration biting back).

I read presumably first-hand sources when I find them - which I can do and you cannot because you don't know Russian - and although no source can be trusted fully in this information warfare, suggesting that anything that supports your point of view is right while anything that speaks against it is a lie reeks of conspiracy theories.

You are so silly!

> Good practices
> ...
> Use private messages to discuss things unrelated to the sentence.

Do Holodomor and the regional languages of France really relate to this sentence?..

They do through the sentence's owner, I presume. Tomfoolery ought to be exposed occasionally for purposes of keeping the sanity.
(And that's coming from someone who opposes discrimination, hehehe.)

>Chechens comprise only a small part of the rebel forces)

This is in itself a grotesque assertion. How can Chechens, from thousand kilometres away, "rebel" against a country that is not their's ?!?
The only relation of these rogues with Ukraine is the following : they are mercenaries, paid by Putin, to do the dirty work, along with nondescript Siberian special forces...

Russians are so used to lies since 1917, that they end up believing their own extravagant bullshit.

Rebel forces do include mercenaries and foreign volunteers (that you could argue should be considered mercenaries as well), most of them Russian, yes.
Ukrainian forces make use of foreign fighters as well, though.
The "Siberian special forces" part is a joke. UAF wouldn't stand a chance against specially trained regiments, so it's illogical to suppose they participate.
I condone neither, anyway. Screw them all who wage war — pretty fair, although I fancy you'd find reason to disagree.

>The "Siberian special forces"

we've seen the passports of those who've been killed and made prisoners (Putin argued their units got lost across the border, making Russian troops the joke of the military international community : thank you Putin for ridiculing these brutes !)
And a few mothers and family members of the deads have witnessed, despite the pressure on them.
The UAF gets the glory instead of the ridicule.

I can't imagine "Siberian special forces member" was stamped across the passports. *lach*
Yeah, shelling cities with civilians in them is very glorious, sure.
Now you're just being boring.

>Yeah, shelling cities with civilians in them is very glorious, sure.

That's the Siberian troops and their rogue Chechen mercenaries' doing...


>I can't imagine "Siberian special forces member" was stamped across the passports.

No, it's stamped in their mothers' hearts.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/monitoring...ght-in-ukraine

Russians are so courageous that they send their slaves fighting on their behalf...

почему никто не удаляет комментарии этого любителя чеченских террористов? русские админы сделайте это или скажите сделать это тому, кто должен это сделать.

[РУС]
> почему никто не удаляет комментарии
> этого любителя чеченских террористов?

По той же причине, по которой не удаляют Ваши неуместные теги и комментарии в #3078858 — удалить здесь что-то вообще сложно.

[АНГ]
> why no one deletes the comments of this
> fan of Chechen terrorists?

Due to the same reason your inappropriate tags and comments are not deleted in #3078858 — it's generally not so easy to delete something here.

я к гомосексуалистам здесь не обращался. @ ещё раз обращаюсь к русским модераторам, какого хрена вас трое человек и ни один не обращает на подобное дерьмо внимание?!

[РУС]
Если кто-то будет удалять комментарии к этой теме, я надеюсь, что также будут удалены неуместные теги и комментарии пользователя Lenin_1917 в #3078858.

> я к гомосексуалистам здесь не обращался

Вы не указывали, что Ваш вопрос предназначался только гетеросексуальным людям. В следующий раз начинайте Ваше сообщение с соответствующего обращения.


[АНГ]
If comments on this thread are to be deleted, I hope Lenin_1917’s inappropriate comments and tags on #3078858 will be deleted too.

> I didn't address homosexuals here

You didn't specify your question was addressed to heterosexual people only. Next time please start your message with an appropriate form of address.

This is a sentence in English. I don't read Russian.

What has the sexual orientation of anybody to do with this ?!?

я к тебе и не обращался

Lenin_1917's comments were:

"why no one deletes the comments of this fan of Chechen terrorists? Russian admins, please do it, or tell someone who should be doing it to do it."

<my comment starting with "Due to the same reason your..." here>

"I wasn’t speaking to homosexuals here. @ I'm asking the Russian moderators again, why there's a bloody three of you and no one pays attention to such shit?!"

<my comment "If comments on this thread..." here>

<sacredceltic's comment "This is a sentence..." here>

"because I didn't address you", using an impolite form of address (familiar ты/ty as opposed to polite вы/vy; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T...nction#Russian for more details)

@astru (the comment was deleted already when I've posted this, but I've quoted it completely anyway)

[РУС]
> Шутки про хохлов тоже писать можно?

Вообще, когда-то говорили что разрешено всё, что не нарушает законодательство Франции. Но в последнее время тут удаляли предложения по непонятным причинам (в частности предложения типа «Ты разрушил мою жизнь, Чарльз» и «Мандела был убийцей»), так что я уже не знаю, что тут можно, что нельзя. Зависит от настроения админов.

Я лично не имею ничего против шуток про хохлов в качестве примеров — особенно если на них поставить тег.

> Я представляю, во что превратится этот сайт, если
> сюда, вслед за киевскими, массово подтянуться
> ещё и ольгинские.

Хотел бы заметить, что украинского перевода у этого предложения нет. :) Так что вы переоцениваете наличие тут проплаченных Украиной троллей.

Кроме того, не совсем понятно, зачем за это платить. Это же не СМИ, формирующее мировоззрение людей, это сайт с примерами придложений. Есть явно лучшие способы потратить деньги, если цель — формирование общественного мнения.

[АНГ]
> Are offensive jokes about Ukrainians allowed here?

Well, some time ago it was said that anything is allowed here if it doesn’t break French laws. But recently quite a few sentences were deleted by unclear reasons (in particular, sentences like "You've ruined my life, Charles" and "Mandela was a murderer"), so I don't know anymore what is allowed here. It depends on admins' mood.

I personally have nothing against offensive jokes about Ukrainians as example sentences — especially when tagges accordingly.

> I can imagine what will become of
> this site if not just [paid] people from
> Kiev, but also [paid] people from Olgino [1]
> come here.

I’d like to not this sentence has no Ukrainian translation. :) So you overestimate the number of trolls paid by Ukraine here.

Also, I don't really see why anyone would pay for this. It's not a mass media that forms people's worldview, it's a site with example sentences. There are clearly better investments of money if the goal is shaping the public opinions.

[1] Olgino is a clear reference to paid trolls, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolls_from_Olgino

The unlinking of this sentence from its translations is clearly a destructive behaviour.

To protest against Lenin_1917's actions, I'll translate this sentence into Ukrainian and Belarusian.

>To protest against Lenin_1917's actions, I'll translate this sentence into Ukrainian and Belarusian.
That's a peculiar way of protesting if you ask me. Something clearly needs to be done about L's extralinguistic adventures though.

"Russians are able to name brothers the very people ..."

The "name brothers the" part sounds odd in English. Perhaps it should be something like "name as brothers" or "call the very people ..... brothers"

I think this sentence violates the rules of Tatoeba:
http://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/arti...t-bad-behavior

"We do not tolerate
Insults: saying something offensive about someone or some people.
Provocation: writing something that intentionally makes other people angry."

and the guidelines:
http://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/arti...how/guidelines

"Do not submit sentences that will antagonize contributors or readers.

Sentences in this category include but are not limited to those that:
- attack other Tatoeba contributors for whatever reason, such as a difference of opinion over what constitutes a legal sentence; such matters should be discussed elsewhere
- insult languages or countries"

It's an opinion piece. I'd be wary about the idea that expressing controversial or unpopular opinions constitutes bad behaviour.
Name-calling must of course be forbidden, but that doesn't occur here, except that 'Russians' is obviously overgeneralising, but this happens so often elsewhere that making a fuss about it seems unfortunately impractical.

It's not only an opinion piece, it's a provocative and insulting statement about a whole nation at the same time.
Expressing an unpopular opinion is not bad behaviour, but expressing a controversial one is, since it may antagonize people.

This really tips the balance in favour of those who dislike opinions they deem controversial, you know. Doesn't seem fair. People who claim to be offended get an advantage.

Of course the offended people do get an advantage, and they should!

>t's a provocative and insulting statement about a whole nation at the same time.

No it's not. It's an opinion. And also, naming them "brothers" is a choice by those who use the phrase, a particularly perverse one, if you want my opinion, when you know a minimum of history.

Generalisations about nations' peoples happen all the time.
The sentence doesn't state that ALL Russians do this. And also, when a government is attacking its independent neighbour and that 70% of nationals support this government, it's not over the top to consider the whole people, in general, as responsible of the doing of its government and regardless of minority dissenting individuals. That's democracy. A form of it.

We say "Germans attacked the French in 1914", although not all Germans participated in the attack and not all French were attacked. It's the problem with languages : they're usually not precise, but they help giving you an idea of what's going on.

A lot of sentences are controversial, according to me, on Tatoeba. What is controversial to me is probably not to you. We're different.

But both you and me precisely know what is taking place in Ukraine.

What antagonizes people the most is shelling them, not expressing opinions.

>Of course the offended people do get an advantage, and they should!
Of course they shouldn't. Otherwise, well, see me claiming your face offends me by giving me the creeps and would you remove it immediately, are you going to like that hypothetical request? I bet not. That's the problem with giving offence claims the advantage.
---
>But both you and me precisely know what is taking place in Ukraine.
If you think shelling is done exclusively by the rebels, that shows how big the discrepancy between how much you think you know and how much you really know is.

Either way, my personal opinion, I repeat, is that I am against censorship of that sort and would rather this sentence stayed.

sacredceltic,
You have just tried to prove the truth of the statement made in your sentence, but I don't argue with it. I just say that it (regardless of its truthfulness or falsehood) is provocative and insulting:
- Provocative, because at the moment you posted it you knew that it would antagonize many of the Russian contributors (since you wrote yourself that 70% of the Russians support the actions of their government);
- Insulting, because it depicts a nation negatively.

>If you think shelling is done exclusively by the rebels, that shows how big the discrepancy between how much you think you know and how much you really know is.

Obviously, you neglect the most important fact : no Ukrainian is shelling Russia...This is the other way...
To be a "rebel", you have to be an inhabitant of the country. All the "rebels" we see so far are either Chechens, Buryats, FSB agents from around Moscow or Siberia or you-name-it from anywhere hundreds of kilometers from Ukraine. Even the ACTUAL leader of the "rebels" Igor Strelkov has nothing to do with Ukraine, except he invaded it with nondescript Russian and other mercenarian troops.
Everybody knows that this has all been set up by Putin and the FSB, as soon as they realised Ukraine was on the verge of joining the EU and/or its free-trade zone. Coïncidence ? Only the fools believe that suddenly, neo-nazi ukrainians attacked russian-speaking ukrainians (which is not Russian business anyway, Ukraine being a sovereign country), just for the pleasure to be slaughtered by Russian tanks and shells, when not tortured in Russian jails.
You want to be a fool or make us believe you're a gullible idiot ? Your problem.

Ooneykcall, even claimed offense in response to your actions / statements is a signal that they are antagonizing. No one would bother arguing with or claiming being offended by harmless statements.

>because it depicts a nation negatively.

Well, alas, Russia is self-depicting itself negatively all the time...when it's not ridiculing itself telling us that their paratroopers or FSB agents "got lost" in Ukraine.
Not my doing. Complain to Putin.

The truthfulness of your statement doesn't make it a bit less insulting. And insulting sentences are not tolerated on Tatoeba.

> No one would bother arguing with or
> claiming being offended by harmless statements.

This is simply not true.

The definition of 'harmless' is moot, though. Oppressing societies would argue anything that does not agree with their views is harmful and must be banned. This happens a lot, in fact, as there are a lot of people who do not wish to tolerate dissenting opinions.

I'd say Cedric's actual comments are quite more insulting than the sentence itself, since he evidently considers himself completely in the right and without fault, while anyone disagreeing is a fool of some sort to him. I'm not complaining, though, I'm having a laugh at that. I fancy you're having a laugh at me, too, Celtic. Have it your way!

>The truthfulness of your statement doesn't make it a bit less insulting.

You want to see the sentence as insulting, because you actually sense its truthfulness and you precisely know what it it refers to. If you didn't believe that Russians do this, you wouldn't bother.

If you were to write the same sentence about the Swiss, nobody would care...

I do not "want to see it as insulting", I assert that it is insulting, because it negatively depicts a nation. This is a sufficient reason to label it insulting regardless of that fact that it is true.

>I'd say Cedric's actual comments are quite more insulting than the sentence itself

You're calling for these comments. Just ignore the sentence and I won't have to retort.

"able to" in the sentence makes it absolutely innocent. since no nation is sacrosanct.

даун нахрен, мозги как у бабы. "FSB agents" не выезжают за пределы России, только ГРУ работает вне России!

Обзываться и оскорблять других участников проекта недопустимо, тем более продвинутому пользователю.

я больше не пользователь здесь. не смог сдержаться просто от бреда этой -зды.

Не надо так сильно переживать из-за того, что "в интернете кто-то неправ" (с).

я в принципе и не парюсь по жизни из-за всяких генетических отбросов, просто меня взбесило насчёт ФСБ. прежде чем говорить о ФСБ надо хотя бы прочитать что это такое. всего хорошего!

http://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/arti...t-bad-behavior

As has been shown here this kind of provocative sentences clearly against the rules. Admins, take measures.

@Lenin_1917

again, this sentence is in English and I don't read Russian, so your commenting here in Russian is just useless.
Why don't you go commenting the Russian version ?
Don't you understand how Tatoeba works ?

соси

one can really enjoy Russian refinements !

Translation, just in case anyone cares:

<shanghainese's sentence>

Lenin_1917: "to hell with you[*], [your] brain are like woman's. "FSB agents" don’t leave Russia, only GRU works ouside of Russia!"

Inego: "Calling names and insulting other project contributors is unacceptable, especially for an advanced contributor".

Lenin_1917: "I'm no longer an user here. I just couldn't stand the this c*nt's nonsense"

Inego: "You shouldn’t be upset because "someone is wrong in the Internet" © so much."

Lenin_1917: "I generally don’t care about different generic rubbish too much, but this statement about FSB enraged me. before talking about FSB one must first read what it is. have a nice day!"

<astru's sentence>

<sacredceltic's sentence>

Lenin_1917: "suck [my dick]"


___________

This sentence is OK. Provocation is in the comments.

____________

Upd.: [*] I've misread «даун нахрен» as «да[ ]ну нахрен», 'to hell with it'. But it looks like it should be read as an insult comparing the person to someone with Down's syndrome.

я ни слова не писал про свой член! врать должно быть стыдно!

Вы уж определитесь, Владимир Ильич, пользователь вы тут или нет. Если нет, то кто же тогда комменты пишет?

Lenin_1917: "I haven't written a single word about my dick! You should be ashamed to lie!"

(Square brackets indicate the things implied; I've thought that without adding further context the English might not be understood as an insult, while Russian clearly is. I do insist my translation was correct.)

Inego: "Please decide, Vladimir Ilyich, whether you're a user here or not. If you're not a user, then who is writing the comments?"

если это мне адресовано, то меня не зовут Владимир Ильич. а что и где я пишу, извините, но это не ваше дело. пользователем я здесь не являюсь, я вам уже это сообщил и даже с вами распрощался.

The proof of the bullying is in the pudding.

Haydar(Charlie) kuyuya bir taş atmış, 40 akıllı çıkaramamış. 😊

O Haydar olduğunu siz nasıl biliyorsunuz?

Türkçe Tatoeba'da herkes birbirini tanır.

Haydar, Yunan tanrıları gibi ölümsüzdür.
Beden ve kimlik değiştirerek Tatoeba'ya girer çıkar.

Her gelişinde de eski defterleri karıştırır.
CK, Sacredceltic ve daha nicelerine çatar.
Sağa sola özel mesaj gönderir.

neyse..
her şeye karşın Lenin_1917 Tatoeba'yı terk etmemiştir umarım.

Sacredceltic'teki tipik batılı bencillik, küstahlık, ikiyüzlülük ve aymazlığının birileri tarafından dengelenmesi gerekir.

Sizin açıklamaların için teşekkür ederim. Evet, Tatoeba'da kendi mitolojisi ve entrikaları var :)

Vous pouvez aller m'insulter en turc ailleurs ?
Cette phrase est en anglais. Ça vous plaît que je vous insulte en français, moi, bande de klettes ?

Would you prefer to be insulted in English? Really? Or the fact that disturbs you most is that you have been "insulted"? Wait, deyta has just expressed his opinion about you. Didn't you do the same thing to Russians with your sentence?

By the way, where is it written that comments for sentences must be in the same language?

>where is it written that comments for sentences must be in the same language?

It is not necessary to write this. One shouldn't address people in a language they don't understand, this is basic civility (I know this is sometimes hard, east of the Dniepr, but you can try) and efficiency (This might also be difficult to some)

I wrote this sentence in English, you want to comment it because you understand English, you don't know that I understand Russian or Turk, so you write in English or you just shut up. Simple.

Now if you want to discuss my character in any other languages, Tatoeba recommends that you do so privately. You may also do this on sentences in relevant languages (I don't mind), or on the wall (as you already did....in English !)

> One shouldn't address people in a language they don't understand

No one was addressing you.

>No one was addressing you.

Then you're an idiot. Because you're currently commenting MY sentence. In Tatoeba, that means you want the author of the sentence to receive a comment that you write, through e-mail.
And guess what ? The message you send is supposed to be understood by the receiver (ie the sentence's author, if you didn't yet get it...)

Hard, huh ?

So you stop polluting my e-mail with messages in languages that I don't understand NOW, or I will complain against you being a spammer. Get it ?

Oh, and would you, a noble and efficient gentleman from the west of the Dniepr, be so kind to show me where I did discuss your character on the Wall....in English ?

I guess you have somewhat skewed perception of what comments in Tatoeba should be. While of course they should not be insulting anyone or discussing anyone's characters, they of course may be posted in various languages. Even more, people may address each other in those comments and not only the author of the sentence.

Bien sûr, on va tous commenter les phrases de n'importe quelle langue dans n'importe quelle autre langue, pour améliorer la compréhension et la productivité sur Tatoeba.

Une productivité russe, quoi. Un exemple pour le reste du monde !

This has nothing to do with productivity or Russia. I just wrote that people MAY comment in the language of their choice (just as you post any sentences you like) and that is all. I didn't write that people SHOULD do that.
If you look at deyta's profile you'll see that his native language is Turkish and his English is very basic. He wrote in Turkish that Charlie (the author of the first comment here) was in fact an other identity of Haydar, the infamous troll, and that he had started this wildness in the comments (the Turkish proverb "a fool threw a stone into a well and forty wise men can't get it out"). I asked him how did he know it had been Haydar and he explained me. He also expressed his opinion that he pitied that Lenin_1917's leaving the project and that someone was needed to balance your western arrogance.
As for me, I didn't discuss your character here or elsewhere, including the Wall.

>If you look at deyta's profile you'll see that his native language is Turkish and his English is very basic.

Then why does he come commenting sentences he doesn't understand ? What is the added value of such activity ?
And can he know anything about my supposed "western arrogance" when he doesn't read the languages I write ? What is this for an opinion ?!?

If he wants to discuss his compatriots trolling (they abound), he goes complaining on the wall and that's that.

Do you understand organisation at all ?
It's simple : each activity should be executed where it belongs.

Try, some day. You'll see, everything will become clearer, suddenly !

> And can he know anything about my supposed "western arrogance"

Perhaps he can't, but it doesn't matter. It is just enough to take a look at the tone of your writings here.

Well, if you find that telling you to behave in a civil manner, when you don't, is "arrogant", so be it !

@Inego
>O Haydar olduğunu siz nasıl biliyorsunuz?


Sorry for the late reply. Things have become much more complicated since my comment.

About Haydar, I know it simply because he added Turkish sentences and he is banned. There are not many people on Tatoeba who get banned on sight.

But I must admit that, this time he has mastered his trolling skills enough to ignite the fuse of a Russo-European war.

By the way, you wrote as if deyta and me were the same person on one of your comments, but me and him are different. I had only written the Turkish proverb about Haydar. I didn't say anything about sacredceltic or anyone else.

I hope the controversy is over for good.

>I hope the controversy is over for good.

No controversy is ever over for good. it will always resurface at some point.

That's also right, but in the absence of an ultimate solution, postponing the problem would be an acceptable move I think.

You're seeking some diplomatic position, aren't you ?

Or, I simply don't want to get anymore email notifications.

Conflicts between Europeans and Russians aren't my problem. I just wanted to uncloak my troll citizen for the sake of sanity. That's my only "position" and this is my last comment on this troubled sentence, full stop.

Lenin_1917 has just unlinked all the translations again, and added wonderfully informative tags 'пидор написал' (written by a faggot) and 'пидоры перевели' (translated by faggots). What a wonderful way to invest one’s time.

This discussion should be put to an end now. If there is anything you would like to add, please use private messages. The admins will continue to discuss the sentence. In the meantime, please refrain from unlinking translations, adding tags, or adding more comments.