Duvar (693 başlık)

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  1. What do you think about political sentences in Tatoeba, especially provocative? I've noticed that some people tend to add them from time to time. Should we have some concept or limit for these things or no?
    • my point of view on the matter is that one should read Tatoeba's content as being there only for the "example" rather than taking the "this sentence is on tatoeba" has a "the author/tatoeba supports that idea".

      i.e the same way I'm not shocked my dictionary contains words like creationism with an explanation of what is , or the word Darwinism, I'm will not be shocked if Tatoeba contains a sentence making the apology of one or the other.

      Same, as I myself will not participate to debate pro or anti abortion, i totally tolerate that some happens in my city, i tolerate that people in tatoeba had sentences related to that controversial issue though i will not do it myself, with the addition point for Tatoeba that the author of an example sentence my not mean it or adhere to the principle stated in a sentence he add

      An other way I see support my view on this is to put the "no provocative stuff" to the extreme, i.e removing something as soon as someone or a group of people find it offensive, as Tatoeba is made to be a worldwide and eternal service (we plan other planets for the next release), you will always shocked somebody, hence Tatoeba will finish with opinion-less universal-truth-only sentences, which will be at the opposite of the initial goal of providing a set of *natural* *example* sentences
      • > one should read Tatoeba's content as being there only for the "example" rather than taking the "this sentence is on tatoeba" has a "the author/tatoeba supports that idea".

        The problem that odexed tries to point out is that there are certain members who use Tatoeba as a rostrum to spread ideas they support. "Sometimes it's important to wake up even the Tom and Mary's land of Nod", they say trying to "open our eyes". This practice has nothing to do with example sentences, this is rather examples of ideology or propaganda. If I want to get some of such "enlightening" examples, I'm sure I'd go to some news or government site or elsewhere, but not to Tatoeba.
        • >this practice has nothing to do with example sentences
          If these sentences are valid sentences, they still make good example sentences regardless of the intentions.
          In my understanding, preaching only works when there's discussion. If we neglect to discuss those sentences by their meaning, they won't generate undesirable debates.
          • There are examples and examples, you know. If an example raises debates about grammar, language usage, translation adequacy, etc. - this is one situation. And if arguments start about ideological message that example possesses, this is quite another situation. Of course, "don't touch it and it won't stink" approach works well, but many members would prefer to not have "it" here at all, I believe.
      • just to illustrate my point, here some example of things that are not controversial for me as a occidental young man of the 21st century

        sentences talking about alcohol and the apology of it, same as for before-marriage sex, which both would have been seen has quite provocative and "bad" by Victorian minds.

        sentences joking about cancer, death, rape, things that someone who have experience it directly or not my not find appropriate or hurting.

        oh and while I’m at it.

        if a Chinese friend of mind learning French wants an example sentence of a racist joke about Chinese/Asian to get a panel of the kind of oral jokes he may hear in the street while in Paris so that he can understand them and not simply smile stupidly while people are making fun of him, should I add it ?

        My Chinese friend will not really mind racist examples, (in China we even get a very popular brand of toothpaste for which the logo is a black guy smiling and showing his white teeth, and no one here find it shocking or even think there might be something wrong about it), not that he's racist, but just that culturally he don't see that some people might take the joke personally. In the same idea, taking about world war 2 with Chinese friends, I've already seen some of my friends making the hitlerian salute in the street for *joking* though the same action put in a european city's street would have been has highly provocative and insulting (and in France I think it's punishable by law). So if you reverse the situation, one might do, say or write things that my Chinese friends will find very provocative (you can try as starter a joke on Tibet, the status of Taiwan, Hongkong and their reaction) , multiply it by the number of culture and opinion and you get what i stated above.
        • So, what about guidelines of Tatoeba?


          Don't submit sentences that will antagonize contributors or readers.
          Sentences in this category include but are not limited to those that:
          - insult others due to their gender, ethnicity, color, sexual orientation, political affiliation, or other membership in a group
          - attack other Tatoeba contributors for whatever reason, such as a difference of opinion over what constitutes a legal sentence; such matters should be discussed elsewhere
          - insult languages or countries
          • What about reasonable grounds for offence, or can I claim offence and insult from anything now whenever I feel like it?

            Hate speech ain't to be welcome, of course, but banning anything that 'may' insult anybody never made sense either.
            I find that so far we've generally stayed, as in the community, within the realm of reason, bar a few oddballs.
            • That's what about my question is. What are those grounds? Maybe we should consider some concrete stuff. If we have for example this sentence http://tatoeba.org/rus/sentences/show/3347798
              and this one
              Why the first one is not good enough for this project but second is?
              • I personally have nothing essential against either sentence; let them play if they want it so much. In fact, the former sentence is quite better since it could be an actual fact (flag-coloured towels exist), and facts, in my opinion, do not warrant deletion however harsh they are.
                (The latter sentence can't possibly be a fact because it's a sweeping generalisation of every Russian. If it wasn't, I'm afraid it would be a matter of who believes what, which is unresolvable. And I quite understand some people not wanting that sentence anyway but I myself do not care this much. Why should I be worried about preaching that's doomed to be ineffective because people don't come here with the intention to reappraise their political views, and so will hardly be affected by anything of that sort?)
                • #
                • AlanF_US
                • AlanF_US
                • 1 gün önce - düzenlendi 1 gün önce
                I would not say that the second sentence is to be encouraged. I believe that tagging it "controversial" (as has been done) is appropriate, but if you think something more should be done, find an admin who you think will be receptive and send him or her a private message.
                • No, thank you, but I got the point. It seems that sentences like this are tolerated here. So, there is no problem anymore.
        • Le truc qui m'énerve le plus, dans la censure, c'est qu'elle est toujours culturelle. C'est l'imposition d'un standard de pensée sur les autres.

          Par exemple, tous les sites Internet des USA, tels que Facebook, iTunes, etc...créent des classements sur les contenus et, soit les censurent carrément (Facebook), soit les étiquettent ("Explicit content")

          Il faut savoir que la définition, par ces sites, de ce qui est censurable ou "explicite" se base sur des classifications établies par des organisations de familles conservatrices aux USA.
          Donc, un titre de chanson comme « Le Zizi » (de Pierre Perret, pour ceux qui ne connaissent pas, un chanteur français très populaire dans mon enfance) est considérée "explicite" par des habitants des USA et donc cette étiquette est imposée aux Français, alors que j'écoutais cette chanson en rigolant avec mes parents, comme la plupart des petits Français, et que la seule étiquette qui nous viendrait, nous Français, à l'esprit est « drôle ».

          Cela fait des années que je me bats contre ces entreprises pour qu'elles arrêtent de nous imposer les standards moraux conservateurs des USA, qui nous sont totalement étrangers.
          J'ai écrit plusieurs fois à Apple pour qu'ils arrêtent ce délire.

          Sous la pression de gens comme moi, l'étiquetage "explicit" est devenu une option dans iTunes, mais qui ne s'applique pas à une grande partie des contenus (elle est toujours là sur les podcasts, par exemple). C'est un combat permanent épuisant.
          Je me suis fait supprimer mon compte Facebook, il y a déjà des années parce qu'il contenait une photo de nu artistique (une photo réalisée par un artiste français)

          Dans le même temps, ces mêmes organisations qui ont horreurs des organes reproducteurs et du corps en général, pour de bizarres raisons que j'ose à peine imaginer, magnifient l'usage des armes à feu et en font la promotion de manière totalement libre, y compris auprès des enfants, alors que ceci est totalement prohibé dans mon pays.
          D'ailleurs, on voit le résultat: une petite fille de 9 ans, de l'Arizona, qui donc n'a jamais pu rigoler en écoutant Pierre Perret, parce que ce genre de chanson lui est interdit dans son pays, a bien descendu son professeur de tir avec son pistolet automatique.

          Conclusion : Vive le sexe et à bat les armes !

          Et gardez vos canons moraux pour vous mêmes, je n'ai pas les mêmes que vous !
      • on a side note, it seems to me there's no sentence with Darwinism
    • Such controversial topics like politics, religion, things relating to sexuality, etc are parts of our life, so we can't exclude them from Tatoeba. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong if people express their opinions on different topics, creating sentences about it, cause doing it they created examples of "real" language.
      We just should be guided by laws, cause some kind of speech, like personal insults, are unaccetable.
      • #
      • AlanF_US
      • AlanF_US
      • 1 gün önce - düzenlendi 1 gün önce
      Tatoeba depends on the existence of a volunteer community to collect a variety of sentences. Most of what keeps it going is (1) the fact that the sentences are used by some to improve their knowledge of a language and by others to teach and (2) a basic feeling of community, of pleasure in our cooperation.

      We are humans, not web-crawling bots, so the selection of sentences is never going to reflect the full variety of language in the wider world. Since language learning is so integral to the community, we tend to contribute sentences that we think are useful for that purpose (though the presence of sentences that are not primarily meant to be instructive may add a little spice). We also, for the most part, stay away from polarizing sentences. I think that's great. Years ago, I spent a lot of time reading political blogs. I eventually got sick of the internal warfare and never went back. Tatoeba is enjoyable to me precisely to the extent that I can come here and get away from propaganda and bickering and dive into language, one of the great aesthetic creations of the human race. Every time there's a fight here, it's ostensibly over matters of principle but almost always has a political dimension and a personal one as well. Those fights drive valuable people away and inhibit others from contributing as much as they could, and I have never seen them actually convince anyone of anything, other than that fighting is a waste of time and energy.

      Tatoeba is not well suited to be a place where people can come to understand the nature and distribution of racist sentences, or even of provocative political assertions. It's not set up, in either the abstract or technical sense, as a full-fledged forum.

      If people want to contribute sentences that reflect political invective or racist or personally denigrating styles of speech, I imagine that they could do it with invented words as placeholders for the real identifiers. But why this should be necessary in the first place is beyond me. A racist sentence is going to have the same grammatical structure as a non-racist one, so if learning the structure of the language is what you're after, I don't see why you would need the racist one.

      In terms of policy regarding acceptable sentences, see the Guidelines and Rules page on the wiki.
      • Negative words exist, though, and there are reasons why it may be important to learn them as well - and in context - and this context would have to be negative to reflect their usage properly. Vocabulary is as essential as grammar, anyway.
          • #
          • odexed
          • odexed
          • 1 gün önce - düzenlendi 1 gün önce
          We are talking about provocative sentences like this
          and not about negative words.
          Some people don't tolerate it, so why we don't just accept some limit or rule for them?

          P.S. I absolutely agree with Alan and sharptoothed.
          • That makes me think of a fun question:
            If someone put up a sentence about Nazi Germany starting WWII, would you advocate for its deletion?
            • Nazi Germany is a part of history now, USA is another thing. I don't think we should provoke a hatred pointing out the controversial decisions which many people (also in Iraq might still keep in their memory). On the other hand, I personally don't have nothing against this sentence because it's neutral in itself.
              Now answer me here, please. http://tatoeba.org/rus/wall/sho...#message_20264
          • as for the linked sentence, i decided to remove it because the user who submitted it was deliberately offensive with sentences and comments and just wanted to provoke some flame, along with other sentences of that kind (and in certain cases worse, like here: http://tatoeba.org/ita/sentences/show/3347798), not
        • If there are two sentences in the corpus:

          "People from Skuzlandia are known for being idiots."


          "Baffin Island is the largest island in Canada."

          then you have whatever grammar and vocabulary you need. You really don't need a single sentence asserting that people from Baffin Island are idiots (which I doubt, but my apologies if any of the 11,000 people from there are reading this). In any case, there are 187 sentences in English that use "idiot" or a derived form of it, so if you really need to tell off someone from Baffin Island, you can do it with a little imagination.
          • Does much of it boil down to using non-specifying or placeholder words then, effectively ensuring it's not directed at anyone/anything real? (Why are your placeholder names real names though then? For all we know some Toms and Marys may be annoyed by seeing their name repeated everywhere. I know I would feel unnerved if the name I happen to bear was in every corner. :>)
              • #
              • AlanF_US
              • AlanF_US
              • 1 gün önce - düzenlendi 1 gün önce
              (1) Yes, that's what I'm suggesting.
              (2) Skuzlandia is not a real place. Baffin Island is, but (a) very few people live there, and (b) I'm not aware of any wellspring of ethnic or political hatred toward them. In any case, to make it clear, I'm suggesting that people NOT write insulting sentences about Baffin Islanders.
              (3) Tom and Mary are common names and not primarily associated with any specific person. I agree it might be annoying to be a Tom or Mary and see sentences about me everywhere, but at least a lot of them are positive or neutral. There are other problems associated with translating these English-language names, but that's another subject. I usually use pronouns myself when I'm writing original sentences, but I imagine that wouldn't work in every situation in every language.
              • "Tom and Mary" are representative only in English.
                In (many) other languages, the structure of the name itself changes the sentence

                Example :
                C'est la phrase de Tom
                C'est la phrase d'Henry

                Notice the change in the writing ? And the French case is a very simple one.
                But names don't only affect the writing, but also the pronunciation.

                "Tom and Mary" are absolutely no help to represent these languages in their diversity, and their systematic imposition only reflects, as usual, the imposition of always the same English standard that crush all other cultures.

                The "Tom and Mary" standard on Tatoeba actually demonstrates a narrow vision of the world and cultural diversity, that may well be interpreted as disrespect toward these other cultures.
                • +100
                • You're right. This standard helps to learn English, but not another languages.
      • > We also, for the most part, stay away from polarizing sentences.

        No we don't. Thinking and writing what we think is, by definition, polarizing. That's what make thinking evolve...Obviously, this simple process is not well understood everywhere...
        • Yes. The sentence "meat is taste and useful" is controversial for vegans, "humas were descended from apes" is offensive for creationists, though for me they are just examples of sentences. Also I don't see anything unaccetable in phrases "The USA attacked Iraq" or "Russia interferes in the situation in Ukraine" or similar.
          • and also I think an other point to be aware of is that the author may not mean it. If I write a book about the life in concentration camp or about the life in France during the 1930s , I will make a lot of sentences that are offensive, but it's okay because we know it's a fiction.

            So the same state of mind should be applied when going through the corpus.

            After of course it does not apply to the Wall or the sentence comments, as here, except if explicitly stated, we assume that one is expressing is point of view.
      • >Tatoeba is not well suited to be a place where people can come to understand the nature and distribution of racist sentences

        I can't see why. From a linguistic point of view, racist sentences are as interesting as (or even more interesting than) sentences about Tom and Mary.
      • >A racist sentence is going to have the same grammatical structure as a non-racist one,

        No they don't.
      • >A racist sentence is going to have the same grammatical structure as a non-racist one,

        learning a language is not about only vocabulary and grammar, but also about sayings. You may want to know also what to say and what not to say in such or such language.
        Also in French, a common way to make a word being more "violent" is to add "-ard / asse" to the end of the word.

        To continue on racism, what is racist or even the fact that "racist" is bad is culturally and time dependent, Chinese people as said have no problem saying and calling me "foreigner" (as it was my name, like 'hey foreigner') or saying 'black guy' when they see a black guy without anybody Chinese being shocked. So Chinese contributor will need to be make aware of it when contributing, in the other way you want to know that every single English sentences referring to Chinese characters as "Kanji" (the name in Japanese) will highly hurt them as it's well known in China that these are a Chinese invention and that a quite important number of Chinese people "hate" Japanese.

        Now in the time-dependent, you may not want to import books in the public domain from the colonial period as it may contains things a bit racist to today's standard.

        and a tomorrow's vegan youth will ask for a purge in Tatoeba about all the sentences making the apology of eating a good steak, a great act of barbarity if any.
        • for example you can use "jaune" (yellow) in French, which as in English is mostly an adjective, as a noun but then it becomes a pejorative way to describe a person from the extreme east of Asia.
        • also for people following computer science news, there was some big "boooh bad guy" for a guy who refused to change in the comments in the code of node.js the "he" by a a neutral "they". because it was considered shocking by feminist movement.
  2. In this search Say "2 resultados" (2 results)

    I only see one.
    Don disturb me, but I tell it for info.
    • Thanks for reporting this. We know that counts are off in some cases, and we try to fix them when we find them.
  3. I need help..
    Is there a way to get sentences by typing part of a word? For example I want to browse all sentences in English that contain suffix -ing.
    • I don't think it is possible. Sphinx, search engine we use, are based on indexing words (or stems of words), not their parts.
    • Short answer: no.

      Long answer: term based indexing just isn't compatible with wildcard searching. There isn't a search engine software that I know of that has this enabled by default or has a sane implementation of it. Though, theoretically, if you know where your search engine keeps the term list and in what format, you can definitely run some sort of regex search or whatever on it, then maybe limit the results to 10 terms or whatever and insert the terms into the search with OR as a separator.
    • #
    • gillux
    • gillux
    • 3 gün önce - düzenlendi 3 gün önce
    #1590115 と #1854139 を誰かリンクしてくれませんか?
    Can someone link #1590115 and #1854139?
    Quelqu’un pourrait-il lier #1590115 et #1854139 ?
  4. For a couple of minutes now, whenever I tag a sentence "ok", it is done but the following error message appears:

    Tag 'ok' already exists for sentence #2757974, or cannot be added

    (With the respective sentence number of course).
    • Die Fehlermeldung wird bei allen Etiketten angezeigt, und der Fehler besteht schon seit dem Serverumzug. Oder bin ich die einzige, die schon seitdem davon betroffen ist?
      • Ich war im Urlaub und habe daher eine weile nichts getan. Vielleicht ist es also tatsächlich schon länger und mir nur noch nicht aufgefallen...
        • Trang wrote an issue ticket about this 27 days ago. The description starts "CK mentioned this issue previously, but I was never able to reproduce it. Now that we moved Tatoeba to a new server, and I'm doing some tests, I can see the message..." I'm marking this a high-priority bug.
    • ça m'arrive aussi, de manière irrégulière...
  5. Il serait pratique de disposer de la possibilité d'effectuer une recherche dans ses propres phrases, ou dans les phrases d'un contributeur donné.
    • sacredceltic skribis/hat geschrieben:
      Estus praktike disponi la eblon efektivigi traserĉon de la propraj frazoj aŭ de la frazoj de certa kontribuanto.
      Es wäre praktisch, über die Möglichkeit zu verfügen, eine Suche innerhalb der eigenen Sätze durchzuführen, oder innerhalb der Sätze eines bestimmten Mitarbeiters.

      Mi tute konsentas. Je suis entièrement d'accord. Ich stimme vollkommen zu.
  6. Certaines phrases sont pourvues de deux étiquettes apparemment contradictoires :
    @needs native check

    exemple ici : http://tatoeba.org/fre/sentences/show/1726528

    Afin de faciliter le travail de révision, en déchargeant la liste des "@needs native check", je suggère qu'une procédure automatique supprime régulièrement les étiquettes "@needs native check" lorsque des étiquettes "OK" leurs sont postérieures (le cas où elles sont antérieures, dont je n'ai pas d'exemple mais qui est en théorie possible, est plus gênant, car cela signifierait qu'un contributeur avancé ou un gestionnaire du corpus met en doute une étiquette OK. Il faudrait alors que ce soit justifié par un commentaire...)
  7. Hi,

    When doing the search on the annotations editing screen for the japanese sentences, is there a way to have to not trim the spaces when doing a search. For example, if I search for '四 ' in the search box, it actually searches for '四'. This makes it difficult to find instances where '四' stands alone and has not been qualified.

    • Yes, you have to actually type <space>. What you want to search is: 四<space>
      • I’m afraid it doesn’t work.
      • This worked for me by typing the literal string '<space>', thank you!
      • Oops, spoke too soon. Works for search, but when I try and replace and preview it doesn't find anything. For example if I search for '<space>四<space>' to replace with '<space>四(よん)<space>'.
        • It's only when searching that you need to use <space>, and only for spaces at the beginning or the end.
          When replacing you would use a normal space.
          • I'm guessing the algorithm only works when <space> is at the beginning OR the end then? Because when it's both it doesn't seem to work. :(
            • Searching "<space>四<space>" works fine for me.
              • Yes, the search works, but have you tried replacing that?
                • Indeed, the replace doesn't highlight. But it may be just an issue with the javascript. I'll take a look later.

                  If you're wondering how it works, the related code is here:
                  • Hi Trang,

                    Did you get a chance to take a look at this?

                    • Yes, it was a problem with the preview. If you did the replace, it would actually replace properly. But I fixed the preview and it should highlight the strings as intended now.
                      • Awesome, thank you so much!
  8. That's very strange. According to the logs I have deleted this sentence:
    But I didn't do it, and the "deleted" sentence still exists.
    In fact I deleted this sentence: http://tatoeba.org/deu/sentences/show/3452024
    added by myself twofold by mistake.
    • #
    • Emm
    • Emm
    • 8 gün önce
    Hi everybody :) I'm a new here.
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