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TRANG TRANG ١٠ أغسطس ٢٠١٥, edited ١٠ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١٠ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ٨:٠٢:٠٥ م UTC, edited ١٠ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ٨:٠٢:٣٩ م UTC link Permalink

** Tatoeba update (August 10th, 2015) **

http://blog.tatoeba.org/2015/08...10th-2015.html


# New feature: sentences collection/ratings

This is a feature that has been discussed a lot, and you can find in the links more detailed information and discussions about this feature:
* https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/sh...#message_23719
* https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/sh...#message_23875
* https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/pull/738

In short, you can now mark sentences as "OK", "not OK" or "unsure". There are dedicated buttons for it.
When you mark a sentence, it is added to your collection. You can view this collection from the menu under your username, in "My collection".
On the sentence's details page, you will be able to see who marked the sentence, and what rating it was given.

This feature is deactivated by default. In order to activate it, you will need to go to your settings and check the option "Activate the feature to rate sentences and build your collection of sentences."

There is still a lot of work to be done but now it can be tested in real situations. So please use it and share your thoughts and ideas on how to make it better.


# Native owner

An indicator about the native level of the owner of a sentence is now displayed.

If the owner of a sentence mentioned in his or her profile that he or she is a native speaker of the language of the sentence, you will see "(native)" next to the username.

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alexmarcelo alexmarcelo ١٠ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١٠ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ٨:٢٨:٢٣ م UTC link Permalink

Thanks.

There's a lot of new stuff to be translated. Could you please give us the procedure again? I remember creating an account on launchpad, but don't remember how to use it. Also, I'd like to work on an entirely new translation of Tatoeba into Latin.

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tommy_san tommy_san ١٠ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١٠ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١١:١٢:١٨ م UTC link Permalink

We don't use Launchpad anymore. See this article on Tatoeba Wiki.
http://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/arti...ce-translation

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alexmarcelo alexmarcelo ١٠ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١٠ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١١:٣٨:٢٦ م UTC link Permalink

Thanks. I've just applied.

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١٢:٤٩:٠٢ ص UTC link Permalink

I'm translating!

My profile: https://www.transifex.com/user/.../RyckRichards/

sicerabibax sicerabibax ١٢ أغسطس ٢٠١٥, edited ١٢ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١٢ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ٣:٣٣:٢٣ م UTC, edited ١٢ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ٥:٠٣:٠٦ م UTC link Permalink

[Also, I'd like to work on an entirely new translation of Tatoeba into Latin.][alexmarcelo]

Fine idea ! :)

tommy_san tommy_san ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥, edited ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ٢:٠٢:٥٩ ص UTC, edited ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ٢:٠٣:١٩ ص UTC link Permalink

Honestly speaking, I don't understand why you needed to be in so much of a hurry.

You said that depending on what we have to say, the release date of the feature may be delayed.
https://tatoeba.org/wall/show_m...#message_23875
Only one member felt the feature was ready enough, and you didn't postpone the release.

I never expect Tatoeba to become exactly what I'd like it to be, but I also hadn't expected that you'd ignore all our comments and just make an important change on your own authority. If you'll go your own way anyway, I think I'll stop wasting my time providing feedback in vain.

Even if the feature is deactivated by default, once members start to rate sentences, it becomes much harder to modify the system. I know what you'll say in a few months when we suggest some change. "We've already gathered a large amount of precious information with the current system, so we shouldn't lose it all by changing the system now."

One of the things I fear is confusion regarding the meaning of "unsure". Some users will use this option for sentences that are not as good as "OK" ones and not as bad as "not OK" ones, while some users will use it for sentences that just don't want to rate "OK" or "not OK", such as sentences of dialects they don't speak. As a result, some people will think that sentences with more "unsure" ratings are worse than others, even if that's not what all the raters meant.

Another thing I fear is that some of us might be considered untrustworthy (by a machine!) based on our ratings. It would be horrible if we were told to do whatever we want and then evaluated afterwards based on it. If you plan to use our ratings of sentences to assess us (which I'd definitely oppose), you should provide us with clear rules before we start rating.

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TRANG TRANG ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ٩:٤٣:٢٨ ص UTC link Permalink

Maybe I didn't take enough time to communicate on why the feature was released.

There were in total 4 people who expressed their opinion:
- You and CK wanted to delay it.
- Umano and PaulP wanted the feature to be released.

If everyone who voted wanted to delay it, it would have been delayed.
If everyone who voted wanted to release it, I would have released it.
Here it was a 50/50, so I felt it would be a fair compromise to release it, but deactivated by default.
This gives the possibility for people who want to use it now, to start using it already. This also keeps the user base a bit restricted so that it doesn't get out of control.

The advantage is that from here, discussions about the feature can be based on real situations. Rather than making suppositions about how everyone else is going to mark sentences, we can actually see it. The tests on the dev website can give some indications about the various future problems to solve, but it will never answer the question of how the feature is really going to be used. This is something we can only know when people use it for real.

The fears you have are things to be indeed worried about, but I don't feel they justify delaying the "beta" release.

I don't know why you are assuming that I will refuse to change the system in a few months, when I'm actively telling people to give keep giving feedback. If anything, I'm rather completely open to the idea to change the system, or even to remove it, if certain things don't work out.

I also wouldn't release this feature if there was no way to "reverse" it. For instance, if it turns out that the way users mark sentences is too incoherent to make any use of the data, then everything can be moved to private lists, so that people can keep their own data, and we could start something else from scratch.

If there is anything else I didn't take into consideration, please let me know. It is still possible to disable completely the feature.

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tommy_san tommy_san ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١٠:٠٠:٣٨ ص UTC link Permalink

What would you do if, for example, the community came to the conclusion that there should be 5 options instead of 3, after some members have rated thousands of sentences and left Tatoeba? Would you just throw away this data? If so, you should write that clearly on the settings page and perhaps advise members not to rate too many sentences for now.

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TRANG TRANG ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١:٣٤:٠٨ م UTC link Permalink

The example you're describing here is somehow similar transitioning from the "OK" tag system to the 3 rating system.
Contributors used to have only 1 choice: "OK" (and this was also limited to only advanced contributors). Now they have 3 choices: OK / not OK / unsure.
So what will happen with the "OK" tags? I can tell you they won't be deleted. Contributors who want to transfer their OK tags into the new system will have the possibility to do it (instead of having to manually do it).

If one day we figure that we actually need to extend it to 5 options, then we'll have to consider how we position these new options compared to the current ones.
1) Are the extra options simply offering a more detailed scale of evaluation?
2) Or are the extra options needed to express something else?

If we fall into case (1), then users will be given the choice to transfer their data to one of the new values. Or to not transfer anything at all.
For instance if the 3 choices were:
- (1) yes, (0) maybe, (-1) no
And the new choices were:
- (2) definitely yes, (1) rather yes, (0) maybe, (-1) rather no, (-2) definitely no
Then users can:
- rate every thing from scratch
- transfer everything they had in a certain value to a new value, and they will manually review the sentences to split them more accurately between each value
- if they used other tools (tags or lists) to categorise more precisely their ratings, we can also do something about it (i.e. transfer everything that is in a certain list into a certain value)

Whatever they would choose to do, the previous data will not be deleted. It will either be transferred into the new system or it will remain archived and unused. Just like I didn't say that I will delete all the OK tags and prevent users from tagging sentences with "OK". There is going to be a phase where both systems will co-exist. Then time will tell if we can move towards the new system, and remove the old one, or if both are still needed.

If we fall into category (2), it would mean there is a need that we didn't address, and the best way users could find to address their needs is through the new feature.
For example, the "favorite" feature. In theory, the feature was made so that you can mark sentences that you personally like.
But maybe there are cases where you just want to just want to bookmark it, i.e. to save it somewhere so that you can find it again easily later on. This is something you can do by creating a list and adding the sentence to that list. You can also do it by adding a comment on the sentence. But favoriting a sentence is an action that is just easier and faster to do.
So sometimes you may favorite a sentence that you don't like at all, but that's just for the purpose of bookmarking it because the other tools that you had were just too burdensome to use.

Now what do we do if people start to request a way to make a difference between sentences that you favorite because you like them, and sentences that you favorite because you just want to bookmark them?
Maybe the solution will be to add another button next to the favorite button, which will say "Bookmark", and we'll try to make it clearer that "Favorite" is only for sentences that you like. Maybe there are other solutions, I don't know.

But in this case too, the previous data will not be deleted.
Maybe some people have always used the favorites to only add sentences that they like so they will just notice there is an extra feature. So there's no reason to delete the previous data for them.
For those who have used favorites to bookmark sentences, they will have to figure out themselves which were sentences that they bookmarked but didn't like, and they will have to move them manually to the new system.
There will also be people who won't care at all and will keep using the favorites to both mark sentences that they like, and to bookmark. Because no matter what we do, there will always be users who will use features differently than what they were initially designed for. Sometimes for the worst, sometimes for the best.

As for the problem of outdated information, i.e. what happens if we change the system but those who used the old system are not here anymore to update their data to the new system?
Well, I would say there isn't much we can do about it. We can document how the previous system worked, so that others in the future may find some use for the data.
Our data will be anyway exported and downloadable, so that people who are afraid that it may disappear one day can keep a personal archive of it.

But again, we're not throwing away anything. In our area, it costs nothing to store data. So it would be madness to throw anything away. The only thing we need to take into consideration is privacy. But there is really no excuses such as "we need to delete the data because it takes too much space".

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tommy_san tommy_san ١٢ أغسطس ٢٠١٥, edited ١٢ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١٢ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١٢:٢٩:١٢ ص UTC, edited ١٢ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ٤:٥٤:٤٣ ص UTC link Permalink

You don't mean a sentence page could look like this in the future, do you? It doesn't look neat at all.

Rated by:
(OK) user1
(unsure) user2
(not OK) user3
(2) user4
(0) user5
(-1) user6

If you plan to stop displaying the existing ratings once we've introduced a new system, members need to know that. I guess some of them assume their ratings will remain visible on the site semipermanently. If the data become inaccessible to most visitors, it virtually means throwing it away.

Of course, as you say, any feature could be changed in the future, but our case is somewhat special because it's still a beta release. If members are clearly informed and agree that their ratings could disppear from the pages pretty soon, I think it's OK to keep letting them try the feature. I don't think many people would bother to read these lengthy comments on the Wall, so I suggested adding some warning on the settings page.

Selena777 Selena777 ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١٠:٥٩:٢٧ ص UTC link Permalink

I realized, i have a different approach for tagging OK and adding sentences into my personal collection.
For tagging OK it's enought to ask myself "Can I hear the same sentence from people in my area, or on TV, radio, or read it in a book or a paper?" If yes, and it's grammatically correct above all, I would like to tag it OK, cause I can be sure, it's not worse than an average sentence created by a native Russian speaker, so there is no need to discriminate it.
But in my personal collection I would like to see something that I could recommend other people to remember. So, even a significant part of native speakers' contribution is not fit, if it sounds rather clumsy or seems like taken out the context.

PaulP PaulP ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١٠:١٢:٤٢ ص UTC link Permalink

Rating doesn't work on mobile devices? At least not on my iPhone.

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danepo danepo ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥, edited ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١:٤٧:١٦ م UTC, edited ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١:٥٢:١٩ م UTC link Permalink

It works on Chrome on Android 5.1.1, but you have to manually reload/refresh the page to see your rating.
https://dev.tatoeba.org/epo/sentences/show/3834661

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PaulP PaulP ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥, edited ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ٢:٢٣:١٧ م UTC, edited ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ٢:٤١:٢٥ م UTC link Permalink

I know that I have to manually refresh to see the rating. But on iPhone you can't rate at all. The 3 icons are not "clickable", they don't turn into green.

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TRANG TRANG ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ٣:١١:١٣ م UTC link Permalink

Can you confirm to me that you cannot favorite a sentence either on your iPhone, but that the "Translate", "Edit" and "List" buttons work fine?

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PaulP PaulP ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥, edited ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ٣:٤٩:٥٧ م UTC, edited ١١ أغسطس ٢٠١٥ ٤:٠٣:٢٥ م UTC link Permalink

Confirmed. I just tested it again.

The 3 pics appear only partly on my screen. Can there be any relation?

See: http://www.ipernity.com/gp/paul.../5014/e7840e94