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Wall (one thread)

mraz
an hour ago - an hour ago
Pandaa nevű felhasználó írja:

Jó lenne, ha világos, egyértelmű és lefordítható mondatokat írnál.

Ez szolgálná a célt, hogy egy fordításokra szakosodott oldal, mint a Tatoeba működni tudjon.
Arra kell törekedni, hogy sok fordítás és főleg egyértelmű fordírás születhessen.

A fenti mondat ebből a szempontból rossz, hiányos és így érthetetlen...

#8111099

> fordírás értsd fordítás
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Pandaa
an hour ago - an hour ago
@mraz
mraz
mraz
25 days ago
Jó lenne, ha világos, egyértelmű és lefordítható mondatokat írnál.

Ez szolgálná a célt, hogy egy fordításokra 'szakosodott' oldal, mint a Tatoeba
'működni tudjon'.
Arra kell törekedni, hogy sok fordítás és főleg egyértelmű fordírás születhessen.

A fenti mondat ebből a szempontból rossz, hiányos és (így) érthetetelen ...

#8069513

Ja, és akadnak benne hibák:
>> fordítás <<
>> érthetetlen
Pandaa
an hour ago - an hour ago
Nos. Hogy'smint tovább?

Tekerjek vissza és mindenhol javítgassam ki, hogy miket írtál el, a kijelentésekkel, kérdésekkel nem is foglalkozva, ahogy magad is csinálod... vagy...
Ugye képesek vagyunk mondatokkal kommunikálni, nem kitalálósdit játszani, hogy mi lehet a kérdés, kérés, kifogás, mikor is egy szó, nem több ha van oda írva csak?

Nem vagyok olyan, aki szalad is árulkodni Lizához, ha valakivel épp nem ért egyet, vagy épp mert megy mint a tank... azért, mert hittem, hogy lehet változtatni, hogy képes vagy változtatni. 23ezer mondat után mondatokkal fogalmazni.

A folyó medre nem örök.
Jól kell tudni, ha nem megy a változás, akkor jön a változtatás.
És más lesz egyszer a főnök.
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mraz
an hour ago - an hour ago
Ki<> kísérjelek (egy szó)

#8110167

Ezt bármilyen Tatoeba résztvevő érti.

u.i. Nem vagyok 'megjelölve főnöknek'. És nem vagyok főnök.

"Elnézését kérem. Meg tudná esetleg fogalmazni mondatban?"

Kötekedő kérdésedre:

Bizonyára, de nincs rá szükség.

Megkeresed a szót és a magyar helyesírási szabályoknak

(egy szó) megfelelően megváltoztatod.

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Pandaa
an hour ago
Egyetlen 1 kérésem volt, és van csak.
Mi ezen olyan nehéz?
Pandaa
an hour ago
Egy szóval se mondtam itt, hogy nem értem.
Idézem: "Elnézését kérem. Meg tudná esetleg fogalmazni mondatban?"
Pandaa
an hour ago
Az önjelölt főnök a legjobb...
Pandaa
an hour ago - an hour ago
Oh, csak egyszeri dolog, hogy itt világos.
És azok a mondatok, ahol csak rákérdezel egy szóval, én találjam ki, hogy mit akarsz?
Egy példa: #8111036
Nem csak én nem értem, hogy mit akarsz.
És ahol egy szó helyett egy másikat írsz, ami ugyanazt jelenti, mégis semmi értelme, hogy írtad?
És amikor bárki hozzászól valamihez, esetleg téged is kérdeznek, veled kapcsolatban írnak, tanácsolnak, válaszodként meg csak ennyit kapnak: >> helyesen. Nem válaszolsz, javítgatod. Nem érdekel, hogy mit írt, mert volt benne egy hiba!

És ha egyszer valaki ugyanígy viselkedik veled, akkor meg már maga a Sátán szintjén van, ugye?
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mraz
an hour ago - an hour ago
Pandaa: És azok a mondatok, ahol csak rákérdezel egy szóval, én találjam ki, hogy mit akarsz?
Egy példa: #8111036

Ez a Te mondatod?

Miért kellene neked itt bármit is érteni a hozzászólásomból?

DE:

4 szóba? (indoklással)

A mondat készítője értette, amit írtam.

Lásd: #8111091
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Pandaa
an hour ago
"Egy példa: #8111036
Nem csak én nem értem, hogy mit akarsz."
Megint nem válasz, csak a saját hozzászólásomra tett kísérlet annak aláásására.
Vajon hol láttam már ezt a stílust...
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mraz
an hour ago - an hour ago
Egy példa: #8111036

Ez a Te mondatod?

Miért kellene neked itt bármit is érteni a hozzászólásomból?

DE:

4 szóba? (indoklással)

A mondat készítője értette, amit írtam.

Lásd: #8111091
hide replies
mraz
an hour ago - an hour ago
Hozzászólások: (szerintem OK)

#8109875
#8111231
#6849528
#6040186
#8111112
Thanuir
an hour ago
Jos ymmärsin viestin oikein käännösohjelman avulla...

Tatoebaan mahtuu paljon erilaisia lauseita. Minusta on hyödyllistä kirjoittaa lauseita, jotka kuvastavat kielen koko ilmaisuvoimaa. Tietokanta on tietokanta myös lauseille, ei pelkästään niiden käännöksille.

Erityisesti, toisten tuottamaa sisältöä ei kannata kritisoida, ellei se ole kieliopillisesti väärin tai muuten objektiivisen huonoa; esimerkiksi yksittäisiä sanoja, joita ei voi pitää lauseina hyvällä tahdollakaan. Tatoeba on tarpeeksi suuri erilaisille lauseille. Jokaisen voi itse päättää, minkälaista sisältöä tuottaa ja kääntää.

Ehkä joku pitää sanaleikeistä, runollisesta ilmaisusta tai kirosanoista. Siitä vaan. Hänellä luultavasti on suurempi innostus niiden kuin muiden lauseiden kirjoittamiseen, ja niinpä hänen tuottavuutensa vähenisi, jos hänet pakotettaisiin kirjoittamaan tyypillisempiä lauseita.

...

Working on a machine translation of the original post...

Tatoeba has enough space for several types of sentences (and "sentences"). As long as they are grammatically ok and complete sentences by some reasonable and broad definition of sentence, they should be fine. I think sentences which illustrate the richness of the language are welcome. It is a database of sentences, not only of translations.

In general, I do not recommend the input of others. In a do-it-yourself volunteer project the only way of getting the kind of content you prefer is to create it. If someone else is inspired to do different things, within a reason, then let them. Tatoebe is big enough for many people contributing different kinds of material. Everyone can still choose what kind of content they create or translate.

Maybe some enjoys puns, poetic expression or swear words. If forced to create other kinds of input, maybe they would lose motivation or even stop. So let them produce what they are motivated to.
lbdx
yesterday
I am about to launch Gensen, a new app using the Tatoeba corpus. Before the actual release, I would very much like to hear your opinion on the beta version. Everything is at https://gensen.xyz . Thank you in advance for your comments!
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Impersonator
yesterday
I don't really need this app (it doesn't have the languages I'm learning now), but I've done a quick check.

All-in-all, it seems nice. I like the general idea. The GUI looks sleek. I really like that you;ve

Some things that could be improved:

1. No keyboard shortcuts. I can't quickly press Enter or Space to move to the next question, but no, I can't do this.

2. The pop-up hints are sometimes misleading.

I've selected English-through-Ukrainian. E.g. 'I [have] been to Rome' shows the following pop-up hints for 'have':
— мають 'they have/possess',
— мати 'to have/possess',
— є 'there is/[he/she/is] is'.
None is applicable to 'I have been to Rome', it should show something like «допомічне дієслово» 'auxillary verb', or something along these lines.

3. The '+' button is not really intuitive for 'hint'.

4. At first, I've thought I had to type words, and I couldn't understand why I can't.

In general it's very nice!
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lbdx
yesterday
Thank you for your feedback.
As word translations are generated automatically, it is true that hints are not always adapted to the context of the sentence. This is why it is possible to report errors so that they can be removed from the corpus.
As the app is mainly designed for phones, I didn't create any keyboard shortcuts. It's a good improvement idea for a future version though.
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Impersonator
yesterday
> This is why it is possible to report errors so that they can
> be removed from the corpus.

I don't think removing all sentences where 'have' is an auxillary verb is a viable strategy... I mean, it's a large chunk of the English grammar :D
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lbdx
yesterday
Hopefully, each word/lemma is used as a sentence blank only once.
AlanF_US
yesterday
I didn't test it because that would require me to sign up, but the illustration suggests that the app looks a lot like Clozemaster (http://clozemaster.com). How does it differ?
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danepo
yesterday
At clozemaster.com I read:
Where are the sentences from?
All sentences and translations are from Tatoeba's massive and awesome dataset, released under a CC-BY License.


Here are som extracts from user reviews on the Android app store:

I was very excited at first about this app, until several native french speakers told me that phrases I'd learned on Clozemaster aren't correct French. Discovering this after having paid for the premium version was extremely disappointing (20181228)

The idea of the app is nice, but as I was testing it in Italian i realised there are a lot of mistakes in the translations, at least from Spanish, and that would be only confusing for my students. That's why I'm giving the app just 2 stars (20171102)


Does the above comments mean that the French sentences on Tatoeba aren't correct French and that there are a lot mistakes in the translations from Spanish into Italian?
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Thanuir
yesterday
This might be more visible as a separate discussion.
lbdx
yesterday
They are effectively quite similar, but Gensen disassociates itself in several ways:
- the redundancy is reduced by selecting only one sentence per lemma (e.g. dog(s) is used a single time as a blank instead of two).
- the "guessability" is improved by favoring sentences that contain words that are frequently associated with the blank word.
- the hints displayed are word translations or icons instead of randomly generated lists of words
- no typing is required. This enables a smoother user experience.
- the user interface is significantly less cluttered
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AlanF_US
yesterday
None of these would get me to switch from Clozemaster.

- I don't want higher "guessability" than Clozemaster has.
- I want to be able to practice both singular and plural forms of words (especially given that these are so different in Russian).
- Clozemaster has the option to display word translations, too.
- Clozemaster has the option to run in multiple-choice mode, but I exclusively use text input because it helps me learn better.
- I don't find the user interface cluttered (though the fact that the main font size is so large and the font size for the "hints" is so small is a pain). Even on my phone, I don't need to scroll to see what I need to see.
shekitten
yesterday
I've just been trying out Klozemaster and less clutter certainly seems like it'd be a big improvement on it.

At the same time, your app (Gensen) is a bit confusing to me; there are buttons like + and an eye where I don't really understand what either is supposed to do. There's definitely much more effort put into making the site visually appealing, but it's not intuitive as to how to "play" it.
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lbdx
yesterday
Thanks for your comment. It reminds me that I should add a quick help intro for the new comers.
- click on the + to get an "additional" hint (maybe a ? would be more appropriate)
- click on the eye to "see" the answer
lbdx
yesterday
> None of these would get me to switch from Clozemaster.
I'm glad you found an application that suits you. I'm not giving up on changing your mind one day. :)
Seael
yesterday
Sorry. I didn't check it because you have to sign up.
AlanF_US
yesterday
I'm taking Thanuir's suggestion to start a new thread based on danepo's post about Clozemaster, which uses sentences from the Tatoeba corpus ( https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/sh...#message_32447 ). danepo wrote:

> Here are som extracts from user reviews on the Android app store:
>> I was very excited at first about this app, until several native french speakers told me that phrases I'd learned on Clozemaster aren't correct French. Discovering this after having paid for the premium version was extremely disappointing (20181228)
>> The idea of the app is nice, but as I was testing it in Italian i realised there are a lot of mistakes in the translations, at least from Spanish, and that would be only confusing for my students. That's why I'm giving the app just 2 stars (20171102)
> Does the above comments mean that the French sentences on Tatoeba aren't correct French and that there are a lot mistakes in the translations from Spanish into Italian?

My response:

While it's potentially useful to see what people are saying about our corpus (or a subset of it), there's a limit to what we can learn given the absence of examples and statistics, and the difficulty of following up with the people who left the comments. For instance, we don't know whether the sentences criticized by the native French speakers are wrong in the sense of being something no native speaker would ever say, or whether they're something native speakers might say, but only informally.

In my experience with English-to-Russian on Clozemaster, all of the Russian sentences and English sentences that I've seen seem to be correct, and I've seen between 1000 and 1500 sentences altogether. I've complained about a poor match between a Russian sentence and an English translation perhaps 10-15 times. More frequently, I've seen sentences misclassified by assigning the wrong part of speech to a Russian word (for instance, treating the adjective готов like a noun because it has the ов ending characteristic of many nouns in the genitive plural). However, that's not a problem coming from the Tatoeba corpus.

The biggest problem I've seen at Clozemaster has to do with the major theme of the past two weeks, which is the lack of diversity in the Tatoeba corpus, and hence in the third-party apps that take their sentences from it. Since Clozemaster has no sentences with typically Russian names, which are the only ones that are declined, I get no practice in this important part of the language.
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Thanuir
yesterday
I've been learning Danish, and more recently Norwegian, via Anki decks drawing completely or partially from Tatoeba. All the material has been of high quality. Maybe there has a been creative translation here and there.

Incidentally, in the beginning I was confused and amused by the drama going between Tom and Mary, and about why the French language is so important when studying Danish, and where are Mette, Bjørn, Anders, and all the other nice Danish names. Initially I thought that the deck was based on some corpus, and Danes have surprising close connections to France.
Then confusion was dispelled when I encountered Tatoeba and noticed the prevalence of Tom and Mary.

...

I imagine that with French there might also be regional differences. I know Spanish has some.
shekitten
yesterday
Some of the user criticisms aren't things we can help. It's not our fault that someone is charging them premium fees for our corpus's content. It's all available for free, created by mostly unpaid volunteers, and any app that is going to charge people money should have some kind of extra vetting process. And contribute the results of that vetting back to the site, ideally, but certainly they should be vetting what they're choosing to charge people money for.
deniko
yesterday
Tatoeba has been extremely slow since yesterday.

Is it only me or others have been having the same experience?
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jegaevi
yesterday
Yeah, it's really slow for me, too. It takes forever to load.
DostKaplan
yesterday
I was just going to report the same thing. Very sluggish and sometimes just hangs for minutes.
soweli_Elepanto
yesterday
The site has become very slow for me too.
Thanuir
yesterday
Slow and sometimes gives an error that the website is not available, please check the blog or something else for updated.
Seael
yesterday
Not only slow. It has also suddenly kicked me out of log-in about 6 or 7 times now since yesterday.
TRANG
yesterday
As far as my investigation went, the slowness and downtime were caused by an attempt of downloading a big list with translations in Esperanto.

I created an issue on GitHub: https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1939

The list in question is exceptionally huge. It is CK's list of proofread sentences and contains over 700k sentences.

I'm not sure if there's something in particular with Esperanto that caused the slowness, or if some conditions on our production server led the queries to run eternally.

I tried to download a list of 70k sentences with translations, and it went through. It still took a while (around 30 minutes), but it wasn't stuck.

Until we figure out something, everyone should avoid downloading lists containing more than 10k sentences with translations. We'll probably have to put back a limit for downloads with translations. Downloading big lists without translations is still fine.
cojiluc
yesterday
The below search produces error. I tried several times.

https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...sort=relevance
Seael
yesterday
Is there a way to delete wrong vocab items such as the full sentences included in
https://tatoeba.org/eng/vocabul...ces/spa?page=7 ,
https://tatoeba.org/eng/vocabul...ces/spa?page=8 ,
https://tatoeba.org/eng/vocabul...ces/spa?page=9 ,
https://tatoeba.org/eng/vocabul...es/spa?page=10 and
https://tatoeba.org/eng/vocabul...es/spa?page=11 ?

The few sentences I checked there were all right and could be created but they are not vocabulary items.
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Thanuir
yesterday
Not that I know of, unless whoever placed the sentence into their vocabulary removes it.

But if the sentences are fine, why not add them to Tatoeba while you are at it?

(If the sentences were short, then one could add them as parts of dialogues or such, but those did not seem to be short.)
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Seael
yesterday - yesterday
Yes, I'll do that later. It nags me, though, those items will never disappear as they are not likely to be removed by the ones who added them.

The fact they can't be removed also makes the feature susceptible to be clogged with such kind of items in the long term.
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Thanuir
yesterday - yesterday
Yes, it is annoying. The problem will become severe if some language is overwhelmed by such bad terms. With español this does not seem to be the case quite yet, as the desired vocabulary looks extensive.
Ricardo14
yesterday
Happy birthday, Lisa!
Feliz aniversário, Lisa!
Joyeux anniversaire, Lisa !
¡Feliz cumpleaños, Lisa!

https://tatoeba.org/eng/user/pr...rsichbaeumchen
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Pfirsichbaeumchen
yesterday
Thank you so much, Ricardo! Vielen Dank! 😊
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Hybrid
yesterday
Happy birthday!
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Pfirsichbaeumchen
yesterday
Thank you! 😊
marafon
yesterday
С днём рождения, Лиза!
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Pfirsichbaeumchen
yesterday
Спасибо, Марина! Очень рада. 😊
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mraz
yesterday
Liebe Pfirsichbaeumchen, liebe Lisa!

Boldog születésnapot kívánok!

Kívánok jó egészséget, sok szerencsét, boldogságot és
minden jót!

Herzlichen Glückwunsch zum Geburtstag!

mraz
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Pfirsichbaeumchen
yesterday
Vielen Dank für den ungarischen Geburtstagsgruß, lieber Ernő! 🙂
soweli_Elepanto
yesterday
Feliĉan novan vian jaron, Lisa!
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Pfirsichbaeumchen
yesterday
Multan dankon, kara Eŭgeno! 😊
sharptoothed
yesterday
* Tatoeba Top 30 Languages Interactive Graphs*

Tatoeba Top 30 Languages Interactive Graphs have been updated:
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com/igraph/
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com/igraph/share.html
JulieCasino
yesterday
Thank you for this information!