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Sentence text

License: CC BY 2.0 FR

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We cannot determine yet whether this sentence was initially derived from translation or not.

linked by an unknown member, date unknown

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濃霧のため人っこひとり見えなかった。

added by an unknown member, date unknown

濃霧のため人っ子一人見えなかった。

edited by tommy_san, February 13, 2013

linked by Silja, February 7, 2015

Sentence #121743

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Comments

sharptoothed sharptoothed February 13, 2013 February 13, 2013 at 8:33:22 AM UTC link Permalink

Could anyone check the translations of this sentence, please? I found it via this Russian sentence
http://tatoeba.org/rus/sentences/show/1520225
that seemed strange to me. It was made from Italian
http://tatoeba.org/rus/sentences/show/750011
which, in its turn, was made from French
http://tatoeba.org/rus/sentences/show/236581

As far as I can judge, German and English translations mean pretty the same and correspond with the Japanese original. Bur French sentence, as I was told, has another meaning. So the question is: does French sentence match the Japanese original?

tommy_san tommy_san February 13, 2013 February 13, 2013 at 10:01:06 AM UTC link Permalink

This is a bit complicated.

First let's take a look at this simple sentence.
人っ子一人見えなかった。
Not a soul was to be seen.
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/144676

In this case, we could also say "人っ子一人いなかった". It simply means that there was no one around.
It seems like "âme qui vive" and "anima viva" (literally: "soul that lives") are stock phrases in French and Italian used to say the same thing, so there's no problem though they don't correspond with Japanese word by word.
I think that these sentences
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/139246
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/175105
can also be translated into French and Italian using "âme qui vive" and "anima viva".

Now let's think about the sentence on this page.
In this case, "見える" ("be seen") needs to be understood more literally. The sentence says that s/he (or they) could not see anyone, but there might have been actually someone around. Even if there were, they couldn't be seen because of the fog.
So in this particular case, I suppose we should use also in French and Italian the verbs meaning "see", otherwise the sentences would mean that there really was no one around.

I don't know Russian, but if you don't have a stock phrase like "âme qui vive", then you should use a more natural one. How do these sentences sound to you?
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/1799428
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/2217858

tommy_san tommy_san February 13, 2013 February 13, 2013 at 10:22:04 AM UTC link Permalink

Incidentally, I've found an example much alike in a novel Shinshū-kōketsujō (1925-26) by Kunieda Shirō.
http://www.aozora.gr.jp/cards/0...403_41259.html
In front of a vapor-covered lake, Jintarō says,
「考えて見りゃこの湖水、どうも少し可笑しいよ。いつも朦気が立ちこめていて向こう岸が見えないんだからな。それにどっちを眺めたって人っ子一人見えないのに、時々泣き声や喚き声がどこからともなく聞こえて来る。〔……〕」
This "人っ子一人見えない", too, cannot be substituted by "人っ子一人いない". He just says he cannot see anyone. Indeed, soon after this, a sailboat with three people aboard appears out of the vapor.

sharptoothed sharptoothed February 13, 2013 February 13, 2013 at 11:01:44 AM UTC link Permalink

> The sentence says that s/he (or they) could not see anyone,
> but there might have been actually someone around. Even if
> there were, they couldn't be seen because of the fog.

This is just what I wanted to know. The French sentence states that there was nobody (not a living soul) there because of fog, right? That is, for example, we expected to find some people there but they just didn't come because of fog. And English sentence (and German, too, I guess) says that there was impossible to see anyone (not a living soul) because of fog (whether there was someone or not). This is just like I read the Japanese sentence myself.

> How do these sentences sound to you?
> http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/1799428
> http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/2217858

They sound pretty natural. Fortunately, we have a direct analogue for "âme qui vive" (living soul) in Russian and it was used in those sentences. :-)

So, what will be the conclusion? Shall we consider French translation invalid and unlink it from Japanese?

Rovo Rovo February 15, 2013 February 15, 2013 at 8:40:48 PM UTC link Permalink

À cause de l'épais brouillard, on n'y voyait goutte.
= À cause de l'épais brouillard, on n'y voyait rien (du tout).
=> le brouillard était si épais qu'on ne pouvait distinguer aucune silhouette, humaine ou autre, si tant est que quelqu'un se promenait par ce temps ! Peut-être y avait-il quelqu'un, peut-être personne, mais on distinguait rien !
À cause de l'épais brouillard, il n'y avait pas un chat.
= À cause de l'épais brouillard, il n'y avait pas âme qui vive.
=> le locuteur omniscient ne prend pas la peine de chercher du regard si quelqu'un est présent, car il sait pertinemment que, par ce temps horrible, personne n'a mis le nez dehors : chacun est resté bien au chaud dans sa maison, au coin de la cheminée !
@ sharptoothed : vi pravas (you have to unlink the French translation from the Japanese sentence).

sharptoothed sharptoothed February 15, 2013 February 15, 2013 at 8:45:24 PM UTC link Permalink

Thanks, Rovo!
I've unlinked French translation.

tommy_san tommy_san February 16, 2013 February 16, 2013 at 12:55:54 AM UTC link Permalink

Merci, Rovo !

> À cause de l'épais brouillard, on n'y voyait goutte.
> = À cause de l'épais brouillard, on n'y voyait rien (du tout).
Ces phrases sont un peu différent de la japonaise, car "人" signifie "homme". Dans le cas de la phrase japonaise, on peut voir un arbre ou un chien, mais pas un seul homme. Ça peut se traduire par "À cause de l'épais brouillard, on n'y voyait personne." ?

> À cause de l'épais brouillard, il n'y avait pas un chat.
> = À cause de l'épais brouillard, il n'y avait pas âme qui vive.
Est-ce que ça signifient l'absence de tous les êtres vivants (littéralement "pas un chat"), ou peut-il y avoir ceux à part des hommes ?

Rovo Rovo February 16, 2013 February 16, 2013 at 10:57:42 PM UTC link Permalink

1). > "人" signifie "homme" :
je vous propose « ..., on ne voyait pas un quidam. », avec le risque de retomber dans l'ambiguïté de « âme qui vive», car
« on ne voyait personne » est à éviter, signifiant « on ne rendait visite à personne. »
Je pense personnellement qu'en français, si l'accent est mis sur le brouillard qui perturbe le sens de la vision, la chose (goutte/rien) prime sur l'humain (personne/quelqu'un/quidam) : si mes yeux ne parviennent pas à distinguer un homme, comment parviendraient-ils à distinguer un arbre, un chien ou autre chose ?
2). Pour le sens de « chat » dans cette expression, il faut savoir qu'à l'origine, il s'agissait d'un « chas » (comme le trou d'une aiguille) et que l'on désigne bel et bien les humains exclusivement. Voir pour les détails (et avec humour)
http://www.expressio.fr/express...as-un-chat.php
Bonne lecture !

tommy_san tommy_san February 17, 2013 February 17, 2013 at 6:17:20 AM UTC link Permalink

Merci pour ton explication sur l'expression « Il n'y a pas un chat » et le lien vers une page intéressante !

> si mes yeux ne parviennent pas à distinguer un homme, comment parviendraient-ils à distinguer un arbre, un chien ou autre chose ?

C'est où cette phrase est un peu spéciale, cependant je crois que c'est imaginable. Il pourrait arriver qu'on voit quelque chose à proximité et qu'on n'aperçoit personne.