Should there be a comma after Andersen? If so, it would be very different from English or german puntuation in this case -
but then, it might be. Just asking to learn.

and make that "punctuation" :)

J'hésite...ne pas mettre de virgule me semble difficile et je ne vois pas ou couper autrement.

En effet, la ponctuation des langues latines est radicalement différente de celle des langues germaniques. L'anglais est un mixte bizarre, mais est plus proche de l'allemand en la matière.

En français, comme je crois dans les autres langues latines, les virgules sont des respirations et non pas des séparateurs de propositions comme en allemand ou en espéranto.
Personnellement, dans cette phrase, je respire précisément après "Andersen".

Peut-être un expert français des virgules pourra le confirmer.

I believe that you don't need the comma, as a French speaking person will very easily understand the sentence even without it; furthermore, it's not needed according to French grammar.

Furthermore, a comma may somewhat confuse the reader, especially the foreign reader who is not versed with French grammar rules.

> it's not needed according to French grammar.
Do you have a link to a reference on that point, please?

In my view, the comma in French translates a stop, which I would make there, and I think most French who speak standard french as I do would as well...
Again, the function of commas in French is entirely different from German. They're not meant to organise the sentences into structures, since conjunctions fill that function.

and I will explain why we make a stop here:

That's not only because the sentence is long, but because otherwise, it could technically be ambiguous: "Hans Christian Andersen le plus connu" could imply that there are several people with that name, and that we are talking about the most renowned of them...

Ses fables ont fait quoi de Hans Christian Andersen ?
=> Le plus connu de tous les Danois du monde.

==> Ses fables ont fait de Hans Christian Andersen, le plus connu de tous les Danois du monde.

I'll explain:

* Ses fables - subject
* ont fait - the verb in the sentence, what they have made
* de Hans etc. - of whom

and then the readers await the "what", so they find the continuation after Andersen, parsing that as the object: "le plus connu" etc.

Let's take it now with the comma, as you put it. This comma can erroneously be interpreted as an apposition, i.e., they have made of Anderson, [who is - qui est] le plus connu etc., and then you are waiting to read "what" - what have they made of that person, who is the "le plus connu de tous les Danois du monde (but, of course, you find nothing there).

So, as I see it, the comma you put before that part of the sentence rendered it an apposition, and then the reader may feel that something is missing at the end.

*Andersen, of course.

I don't understand what you're trying to explain...

the "what" is implicit in the French sentence:
=> (Ce que) ses fables ont fait de Hans Christian Andersen, (c'est) le plus connu de tous les Danois du monde.
=> (what) his fables have done with HCA, (is) the most renowned Dane of the world.

OK, we apparently disagree on that; I had the feeling that you would now see the sentence as it is seen through my own eyes, but you see it as before.

It seems I could not succeed in convincing you.

I'll only try to address the English sentence in your above comment:

=> (what) his fables have done with HCA, (is) the most renowned Dane of the world.

The "(is)" after the comma is not there. Try to read the sentence without the "is", which you assume the readers would add by themselves, but you maby be wrong:

=> (what) his fables have done with HCA, the most renowned Dane of the world, [so, what have those fables done with HCA? Where is the rest of the sentence?]

>[so, what have those fables done with HCA? Where is the rest of the sentence?]

I think I still don't get your point. To me the answer is obvious:

so, what have those fables done with HCA? (part 1)
=> answer= the most renowned Dane in the world (part2)

to me, it is obvious that part1 should be separated from part2 by a comma, otherwise that would lead to the confusion that "HCA the most renowned Dane...what?"

=> HCA, the most renowned Dane in the world, was made ? by his fables...

Maybe someone else, who may take the trouble to read my segments above, may reach my conclusion rather than yours.

For the time being, you are a prisoner of your own perception on the current sentence, and you cannot bring yourself out of your perception to see it through my eyes.

The point I'm trying to make (rather in vain, as it seems) is that if the comma weren't there, the sentence would be perfectly understood. As you added the comma, you inevitably made it susceptible to other interpretations, not necessarily the one you intended the reader to make.

>For the time being, you are a prisoner of your own perception on the current sentence, and you cannot bring yourself out of your perception to see it through my eyes.

I'm really trying, Eldad, honest!
But isn't it the same way on your side?

>What I'm trying to say (rather in vain, as it seems) is that weren't there a comma, the sentence would be perfectly understood.

No. As I explained, it would be ambiguous. A French listener would hear (translated in English):
"His fables have done with HCA - the most renowned Dane of the world - ....?" What?

Do you get it?

The comma clearly separates the subject and the object =>> What ? =>(= ,) that !

=> What has his fables made HCA? => (= ",") the most renowned Dane in the world

Let me see if I can get you straight. You say without the comma, with the sentence looking as follows:

Ses fables ont fait de Hans Christian Andersen le plus connu de tous les Danois du monde.

francophones would misunderstand the sentence? How would they read it, then? How come a lack of the comma would change the meaning of the sentence?

>francophones would misunderstand the sentence? How would they read it, then? How come a lack of the comma would change the meaning of the sentence?

YYYYesssss!

That is what I am desperately trying to explain to you.

As I said earlier, they would (and I would too) hear and reads it as:

"Ses fables ont fait de HCA - le plus connu des Danois du Monde - ...." and then they would wonder what comes next !!!!

[eng] "His fables, have made of HCA - the most renowned Dane of the world - ..." => What the fuck have his fables made the most renowned Dane of the world ????

Noooooo...

You are referring to it now as an apposition, but an apposition has to be separated from the sentence with a comma. For instance,

Paris, the capital of France, is one of the most beautiful cities in the world.

How would you render it in French? I'll do my best:

Paris, la capitale de la France, est une des plus belles villes du monde.

See a similar sentence here:
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/550055

You're the author, by the way. You did add a comma there, as I would expect an apposition to consist of.

Yet another one:
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/426196

Maybe that's what Eldad means:

Ses fables ont fait de Hans Christian Andersen, le plus connu de tous les Danois du monde. (Incomplete)
Ses fables ont fait de Hans Christian Andersen, le plus connu de tous les Danois, un homme très riche. (Complete)

but this sentence here is not an apposition, as it doesn't consite in 3 parts but only 2...
And, because of that, people would hear an implied apposition if you do not split it with a comma.
Believe it or not, that is how French works.

« Ses fables ont fait de Hans Christian Andersen, le plus connu des Danois du monde, un homme très heureux. » (3 parts separated by 2 commas = apposition)

« Ses fables ont fait de Hans Christian Andersen, le plus connu des Danois du monde » (2 parts, no apposition but an inference)

= « J'ai bien mangé, je vais faire une sieste » (=inference)

Thanks, Alex, you're the best!!! :)

Indeed, what I was trying to point out was that with a comma, one expects another comma at the end of that phrase, and the rest of the sentence afterwards, as it appears in your fake sentnece:

"un homme très riche."

(maybe SC has added yet another comment in the meantime, I'm not sure, I'm not checking - please excuse me if this comment of mine breaks the order of the comments entered so far).

I cannot deal with a sentence such as "Believe it or not, this is how French works". You are the native speaker among us. I was trying to convince you to do otherwise, but if you believe native French would expect a comma here (and it won't be regarded as an apposition by them), I cannot contend with that.

Then, Q.E.F on your part, I guess :)

> = « J'ai bien mangé, je vais faire une sieste » (=inference)
@sacredceltic, wouldn't you use a semicolon here? We could even split it into two sentences, right?

>wouldn't you use a semicolon here? We could even split it into two sentences, right?

I had this discussion with, I think, Nero, on this, and I think this rule goes for English. I'm not saying you can't do it in French here, but, personally, I wouldn't...but I'm not an expert of semicolons...

I understand... thank you!

>Then, Q.E.F on your part, I guess :)

I don't know what you mean with this acronym that I don't know.
I'm really trying to explain how a French native would pause (= comma) in this sentence...
Again, commas in French don't work as in Germanic languages...

Q.E.F = Quod Erat Faciendum
What was necessary to do, that is, mission complete.

I disagree with you about the comma, but I'm obliged to accept your word on this sentence, as, of course, you are the native speaker among us and I need to count on your judgment.

I understand it is difficult to grasp if your native language works otherwise.
I guess it is a question of timing/length of pauses.
If I was a French radio speaker from, say, France Inter, I would say this sentence the following way:
Ses fables ont fait de Hans Christian Andersen (short pause) Le plus connu de tous les Danois au monde.

I don't think ANY national French radio speaker would not pause at the same stage.
I, personally, materialise this short pause by a comma because it makes so much sense...

Je n'ai vraiment pas beaucoup envie de m'y mêler, je veux simplement dire, que "le plus connu ..." est une apposition (? apudmeto) et qu'n espéranto je mettrais une virgule avant... et d'ailleurs aussi en français (ma "belle-langue" :)

Ne, ĝuste ĉi tie ĝi ne estas apudmeto (apposition) - sed parto de la frazo mem (la daŭrigo de la frazo).

Mi daŭre provis aserti, ke metante komon tie igis ĝin aspekti kiel apudmeto (apposition), sed mi komprenas la argumenton de SC. Se estas tie paŭzo, li diras, devas ankaŭ aperi tie komo.

[Kara GrizaLeono, mi petas pardonon se mi papage reuzas viajn vortojn, sed mia manko de veraj konoj de la franca plelas min al tiu truko]
Je n'ai vraiment pas beaucoup envie de m'y mêler, je veux simplement dire, que "le plus connu ..." est une attribut. (predikativo en Esperanto http://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predikativo )

[Bonvolu korekti, se mi miskomprenas / misprezentas ion!]
Tiu cito el Wikipedia koncernas, la temon, mi supozas:

Attribut du complément d'objet direct[modifier]

L'attribut succède immédiatement au COD. On peut donc le confondre avec l'épithète lorsqu'il s'agit d'un adjectif. Toutefois, si l'on peut antéposer l'adjectif au nom, il s'agit d'une épithète (« il a rendu son ennuyeux discours »). Si l'on peut antéposer l'adjectif au groupe nominal, il s'agit d'un attribut (« il a rendu ennuyeux son discours »). Un autre test consiste à pronominaliser le COD : si l'adjectif reste après le verbe, il s'agit d'un attribut et non d'un épithète (« elle a les yeux bleus », « elle les a bleus » : bleus est ici un attribut du COD).

L'attribut du COD peut aussi se trouver introduit par une préposition (« je le considère comme mon meilleur ami »)..

http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/1303946

The difference in between the 2 sentences, up to the 2d comma, is the final intonation on "monde" that goes down in the present sentence, and UP, to attract attention to the third part, in this sentence in the above link.

I hope this helps...
I wish I could record the audio for these 2 sentences, if somebody explained me how to do it...

> I wish I could record the audio for these 2 sentences, if somebody explained me how to do it...

That would be really helpful! Just record and save them as MP3 files... rename these files with the sentence ID and send them to sysko!

>That would be really helpful! Just record and save them as MP3 files...

But do you know what application i should use to do this MP3 recording on MacOSX?

You can try Audacity for Mac (it's my favorite):
http://audacity.googlecode.com/...-ub-1.3.14.dmg (Application)
http://lame1.buanzo.com.ar/Lame...ity_on_OSX.dmg (MP3 Encoder)

Thank you very much, alexmarcelo! We are currently experiencing a snowfall on Brussels and my broadband connection seems to be affected so I'm currently running on a very slow Edge connection from my smartphone. But I will definitely try to install this software on my machine and record these sentences for you to hear them and eventually perceive what I mean, as soon as I get back to a decent bandwidth...I really enjoy these debates, even though I know languages are so difficult...

Cheers!

The sound is not enough; we want also to see your your facial expression and body language of course.

> Thank you very much, alexmarcelo!
My pleasure!

> But I will definitely try to install this software on my machine and record these sentences for you to hear them and eventually perceive what I mean, as soon as I get back to a decent bandwidth...
Thank you! You can record even more if you are inspired... Actually, I've seen many recordings for you sentences. At first I thought they were yours!

> I really enjoy these debates, even though I know languages are so difficult...
So do I!

> Actually, I've seen many recordings for you sentences. At first I thought they were yours!

That must have been sysko's voice...
I had this argument with CK, who presents the audios as if the sentence's owner was the speaker...the guy is somewhat messy...

In the future, I hope we can record several audios for the same sentence to allow for accents, genders and ages...that would be real great!

I love this project!

I feel like this comma is a mistake and Eldad&Alex are right. I might check it out later in the Grévisse.

>I feel like this comma is a mistake and Eldad&Alex are right. I might check it out later in the Grévisse.I feel like this comma is a mistake and Eldad&Alex are right. I might check it out later in the Grévisse.

As I explained at the beginning of this thread to PeterR, I am not an expert on the theory of commas in French, however, I am 100% sure that commas do not work in French the way they do in German.
I always had the feeling that commas express pauses, and of course, the pauses are more or less logical in the structure of the sentences (to mark an apposition for instance), but not in the same structural way as in German that systematically employs a comma in front of a conjunction to seperate propositions. French commas are more liberal.
Here, again, I can perfectly "hear" this comma. Over the course of my life, I must have heard tens of thousands of such sentences by hundreds of natives.

I would be extremely interested if you could find a reference that would contradict that perception of my own language as this would utterly revolutionise the way I have conceived commas in French all my life (I'm 49)

I will try to record the 2 sentences with Audacity (thank you Alexmarcelo) and send it to sysko.

I sent the recordings to sysko...

@ Eldad:
> Ne, ĝuste ĉi tie ĝi ne estas apudmeto (apposition) - sed parto de la frazo mem (la daŭrigo de la frazo).

Vi tute pravas. Mi efektive malbone legis tiun francan frazon!
Mi centoble skribu, ke mi pli atentente legu (Per komputilo tio estas malpeza puno :)

@ Eldad:
> Se estas tie paŭzo, li diras, devas ankaŭ aperi tie komo.

En la lingvoj, kiuj uzas komon por indiki spiropaŭzon, la "regulo" do dependas de la pulmenhavo, de la voĉa laŭto, de la efikeco de la parolsistemo, ...
Legante frazojn, kia "Hier, il faisait bon" mi ĉiam ekhavas la impreson, ke io estas ne en ordo pri la pulmoj de la aŭtoro :)
Same en la anglaj frazoj: supozeble ekzistas en tiuj lingvoj regulo aŭ konsilo, kiu metigas komon post tempindiko aŭ lokindiko komence de frazoj.

Les virgules ont normalement une fonction grammaticale. Moi je trouve ça étrange cette virgule, parce que ça suggère une apposition.

WOW, I'm thrilled my modest question sparked off such a lively debate :) I feel that I've benefited from most of what has been put forward on either side of the argument. Thanks.

@PeterR
That's why we love Tatoeba so much, I suppose...
Those who believe they have nothing to learn in exchange for their own knowledge quickly lose patience...I don't!