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This sentence was initially added as a translation of sentence #263831For here, or to go?.

C'est pour ici ou à l'emporter ?

added by FeuDRenais, March 19, 2011

linked by FeuDRenais, March 19, 2011

linked by PaulP, November 28, 2014

linked by Tamy, November 29, 2014

linked by marafon, March 4, 2016

C'est pour ici ou à emporter ?

edited by felix63, April 25, 2021

Sentence #799660

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Comments

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais March 19, 2011 March 19, 2011 at 7:39:08 PM UTC link Permalink

(à L'emporter = helvétisme)

Dejo Dejo March 19, 2011 March 19, 2011 at 11:22:18 PM UTC link Permalink

au Québec: "pour emporter".

sacredceltic sacredceltic February 4, 2012 February 4, 2012 at 3:36:28 PM UTC link Permalink

à emporter

sacredceltic sacredceltic February 4, 2012 February 4, 2012 at 3:37:13 PM UTC link Permalink

ce n'est pas un helvétisme, mais une faute de français.

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais January 5, 2013 January 5, 2013 at 1:46:35 PM UTC link Permalink

Non, cette fois, c'est bien un helvétisme. Tu pourrais soit (a) me faire confiance, soit (b) chercher sur Google, soit (c) demander à tes amis suisses, soit (d) y aller toi-même pour vérifier en personne.

sacredceltic sacredceltic January 5, 2013 January 5, 2013 at 2:45:13 PM UTC link Permalink

Tu dis n'importe quoi, comme d'habitude...

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais January 26, 2013 January 26, 2013 at 8:51:36 PM UTC link Permalink

Bonjour. Non, je ne vois pas ce que vous voulez dire.

Qu'est-ce que vous voulez que je fasse ?

sacredceltic sacredceltic January 26, 2013 January 26, 2013 at 11:00:54 PM UTC link Permalink

cette phrase n'est pas française.

tu as mal entendu.

C'est :« Pour ici ou à emporter ? »

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais January 26, 2013 January 26, 2013 at 11:19:12 PM UTC link Permalink

Écoutez, il vous faut faire une petite recherche sur Google (Google images, même), pour voir que vous êtes en train de faire une erreur. Ça gaspillera, au pire, 1 minute de votre vie. Sauf que ça ne sera pas un gaspillage comme vous apprendrez quelque chose (au lieu de supposer que vous avez toujours raison).

Et après vous pourriez faire Tatoeba un grand service en retirant l'étiquette @change.

sacredceltic sacredceltic January 26, 2013 January 26, 2013 at 11:41:41 PM UTC link Permalink

N'importe quoi, donc...

Tu n'est pas francophone et tu comprends le français de travers.
Contente-toi donc de massacrer le mandarin, l'ouïghour et l'anglais...c'est déjà beaucoup...

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais January 26, 2013 January 26, 2013 at 11:59:54 PM UTC link Permalink

Vous avez fait la recherche ou pas ? Comme vous êtes têtu à ce point-là, je la ferai pour vous :

http://www.google.com/search?so...q=a+l'emporter

Quelle surprise, tant de restos suisses...

Merci de ne pas commencer une polémique. Je sais que c'est très dur pour un francophone comme vous quand un non-francophone vous corrige, mais laissez tomber.

sacredceltic sacredceltic January 27, 2013 January 27, 2013 at 12:20:58 AM UTC link Permalink

Tu ramènes les références pour "À emporter". Les quelques références pour "à l'emporter" sont des fautes de français, sans doute commises par des Russes comme toi, qui ne savent jamais employer les articles à bon escient, puisqu'il n'y en à pas en russe. C'est d'ailleurs à ça qu'on reconnaît les russophones en français et c'est ainsi que je t'avais démasqué, lorsque tu essayais de te faire passer pour un francophone suisse.

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais January 27, 2013 January 27, 2013 at 12:24:34 AM UTC link Permalink

@Moderators:

Can someone please remove the @change tag on this sentence? I'm tired of providing reasonable references/arguments to someone whose only argument consists of insulting me.

Vortarulo Vortarulo January 27, 2013 January 27, 2013 at 12:27:22 AM UTC link Permalink

So you're a native speaker of not only Belgian and French French, but also of Swiss French, sacredceltic?
Wow, my respect!

Honestly. Is it that difficult? Sacredceltic, you don't speak the Swiss variety of French, I guess, and you believe FeuDRenais to be a Russian, who pretends to be Swiss.
Simple solution: Ask a native!
A native of Swiss French, that is.

sacredceltic sacredceltic January 27, 2013 January 27, 2013 at 12:27:47 AM UTC link Permalink

Quelle est l'insulte ? Russe ?

Vortarulo Vortarulo January 27, 2013 January 27, 2013 at 12:41:17 AM UTC link Permalink

@FeuDRenais:

After I wrote my lines, I clicked on your link (sorry for not answering in French, my French is quite rusty and it takes much more time to write, for me) and saw that it's perfectly evident that "à l'emporter" is Swiss French. Practically all of the hits are from Switzerland or appear in sentences connected to Lausanne or other Swiss cities.
And I particularly liked the first hit to a forum, where members cited various sources on the Helvetism:
http://forum.wordreference.com/...71226&langid=3

French is a language spoken with various regional variations, it's good to mark these regional variants with a tag ("Swiss French" in this case). I'll remove the @change tag.

sacredceltic sacredceltic January 27, 2013 January 27, 2013 at 12:57:20 AM UTC link Permalink

@Vortarulo : vous êtes très mal informé.

Je n'ai jamais affirmé êtres natif Belge francophone. Je suis français, natif de France, de parents natifs de France, de grands-parents également natifs de France et tous Francophones depuis plusieurs générations.
Je ne sais pas sur quelle base vous pouvez affirmer que je prétends être natif francophone belge...

Et je ne sais pas non plus ce qui autorise un Gestionnaire du Corpus à classer ainsi les francophones, surtout quand il ne parle pas français...

Car Vortarulo, vous ne parlez pas un traître mot de français, et vous êtes en train de défendre des affirmations concernant le français pour lequel vous n'avez AUCUNE COMPÉTENCE...

FeuDRenais est russophone, et il le reconnaît aujourd'hui dans son profil, après s'être longtemps fait passer pour un francophone suisse.

Bref, un russophone et un allemand qui ne connaît goutte au français veulent enseigner au monde ce qu'est le français de Suisse. Merveilleux !

Donc, soit vous fournissez des sources d'AUTORITÉ (et non des ragots de forums, alimentés par des analphabètes !), soit vous corrigez cette phrase !

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais January 27, 2013 January 27, 2013 at 1:17:35 AM UTC link Permalink

français de France: http://umihformation.fr/permis-...a-emporter.php
français de Suisse: http://www.geneve.ch/legislatio...rsg_i2_24.html

Vortarulo Vortarulo January 27, 2013 January 27, 2013 at 1:21:05 AM UTC link Permalink

Pardon, c'est mon erreur. D'accord. So your native variant is the French of France. It's still funny how you make such a great fuss about me making a wrong assumption, but still continue to make much bigger assumption about other persons.

And true, I do not have competence in French (although my passive French suffices here), but I can READ and deduct logically. I couldn't judge FeuDRenais' "nativeness", but I can judge well the evidence he gives and the evidence you give. Which is easy, because you don't care to give any evidence to support your claim.
It's completely normal not to be overly familiar with ALL the variation of a language as large and wide-spread as French. I don't know all different traits of Standard Swiss German (Schweizerhochdeutsch), so if someone tells me AND can prove that it's a Swiss variant, I stand corrected and learned something new. Swiss Germans (though perhaps not ALL of them) say "parkieren" instead of "parken". Swiss Francophones (though perhaps not ALL of them) say "à l'emporter" instead of "à emporter". That's what I conclude and one doesn't need to be a competent speaker or a native to come to this conclusion.

You saw the sources, Sacredceltic. Not the forum itself, but the sources those people gave. You didn't give any sources, so far you merely attack people ad hominem.

Wasn't it you who always claims to be so much in favor of equal rights for languages? How comes you have this noble attitude on the one side, but actively oppress local variants (and we're not speaking of written dialectal pronunciation here)?

Be it as it may. I'd still like to see the opinion of a native speaker of Swiss French, here. Or several.

Vortarulo Vortarulo January 27, 2013 January 27, 2013 at 1:27:24 AM UTC link Permalink

But FeuDRenais, didn't you know the legislation of Geneve was written by Russian immigrants? ;D

SCNR

sacredceltic sacredceltic January 27, 2013 January 27, 2013 at 9:40:39 AM UTC link Permalink

>How comes you have this noble attitude on the one side, but actively oppress local variants (and we're not speaking of written dialectal pronunciation here)

This is utter bullshit !

I am a proponent of dialectal version and everybody can see that I created hundreds of them. I carefully note down each dialectal phrase I run into, wether from Belgium, Switzerland, Canada or any other area of the world and systematically creates sentences on Tatoeba with them that I check with local natives.
The question is certainly not that.
FeuDRenais is, by definition, suspect when he asserts something about dialectal versions :
1) he is not a native (according to his own main profile, now...)
2) He has a track record of running several different profiles under which he claimed various nationalities and nativeness.
3) He was caught red-handed in the past, asserting that a mistake he made was a dialectal version in order to save his ass. He does it regularly.

The fact is that FeuDRenais is a young man with an oversized ego that made him conclude he could PLAY with people, trying to impersonate nationalities to challenge his skills in Mandarin, French, English, Uyghur and what not.
But he regularly burns his fingers doing so.

The fact that the Canton de Genève describes the practice in this way in official Swiss-talk doesn't mean at all that the phrase exists as it is written here.
You'll have to find published reference of the sentence, sais this way, to convince me.

Vortarulo Vortarulo January 27, 2013 January 27, 2013 at 3:51:55 PM UTC link Permalink

Please calm down.

You're trying to find excuses for your behaviour. It's valid to ask for proof for the existence of words or short phrases (in a linguistic sense). Your claim has already been disproved, now you switch from the phrase level to the sentence level and ask for evidence that the whole SENTENCE exists as it stands.
This is not how Tatoeba works. Or dictionaries. Or languages. There is no need to show you a published reference of this sentence in exactly the way it's written.

I honestly don't care about your concerns. You're obviously not the right person to judge the grammaticality of a sentence in a different variety than you speak. But because neither am I, and your doubts about FeuDRenais are reasonable, I'll mention the sentence on the Wall, asking for speakers of Swiss French to judge if this could be said or not.

If you want to continue the discussion, please do so by using *substantial* comments, for a change. In other words, leave your insults, ad hominem attacks, swearwords at home, and learn to discuss and use evidence like an adult person.

sacredceltic sacredceltic January 27, 2013 January 27, 2013 at 5:37:34 PM UTC link Permalink

what "insults" and "swearwords", exactly ?

sacredceltic sacredceltic January 27, 2013 January 27, 2013 at 6:40:46 PM UTC link Permalink

> honestly don't care about your concerns. You're obviously not the right person to judge the grammaticality of a sentence in a different variety than you speak.

But Google is, and the only Google reference for ""pour ici ou à l'emporter"" in the whole world wide web is this sentence...https://www.google.com/search?q...=1920&bih=1105
Isn't that strange, since, according to its author, this sentence would be the standard way to order something to go in Switzerland ?

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais January 27, 2013 January 27, 2013 at 9:27:32 PM UTC link Permalink

Quelqu'un m'a fait une remarque assez pertinente, en disant que la phrase serait plus standard avec "sur place" au lieu de "pour ici". Après une recherche sur Google, il semble que c'est juste, comme "pour ici" est plutôt la version québécoise (donc, ceci est un mélange entre le Québec et la Suisse). Cependant, j'ai l'impression d'avoir entendu "pour ici" dans les cafés de Lausanne/Genève, et ai déjà écrit à une amie suisse pour voir ce qu'elle en pense.

S'il s'agit d'une faute, je mettrai "sur place" au lieu de "pour ici", mais quant à "l'emporter", il n'y a pas d'erreur.

sacredceltic sacredceltic January 27, 2013 January 27, 2013 at 9:50:35 PM UTC link Permalink

>donc, ceci est un mélange entre le Québec et la Suisse

Faire un mélange Suisse/Québécois quand on est russe, en français, est évidemment fort utile pour servir d'exemple de la langue française au reste du monde.
Mais bien sûr, avec un avocat allemand qui ne parle pas français et un autre polonais qui n'en parle pas davantage, ça devrait se défendre, évidemment !

Vous formez vraiment une fine équipe de pieds-nckelés !

sacredceltic sacredceltic January 27, 2013 January 27, 2013 at 9:51:22 PM UTC link Permalink

*nickelés

webmistusik webmistusik January 27, 2013 January 27, 2013 at 9:55:52 PM UTC link Permalink

En toute honnêteté, je pense que la phrase la plus courante en français standard et qu'on pourrait presque qualifier de locution serait : "C'est pour emporter ou consommer sur place ?" Ou en inversant les éléments. En phrase infinitive en tout cas, sans reprise de complément d'objet direct pronominal. :-|

Vortarulo Vortarulo January 27, 2013 January 27, 2013 at 10:09:10 PM UTC link Permalink

webmistusik:

Surely no one objects adding the "High French" variant or other variations of the sentence. There are also three different German variants. The version I always here in McDonald's is the "Zum Hieressen oder Mitnehmen?" one, but I wouldn't complain if they say it in another way in Austria or Switzerland or Munich. I've never been to a McDonald's there. And also, perhaps the phrase varies between McDonald's, BurgerKing and whatever other chains there are...

> En phrase infinitive en tout cas, sans reprise de complément d'objet direct pronominal.

This is probably true for "France French", but are you sure about Swiss French? Portuguese dialects treat object pronouns differently, too. So this might go as well for French.

webmistusik webmistusik January 27, 2013 January 27, 2013 at 10:21:47 PM UTC link Permalink

@Vortarulo :
Pour une affiche ou un message-bandeau dans un fast-food, je pense qu'on trouvera : "À emporter ou consommer sur place".

Sinon, quoique connaissant assez bien la Romandie suisse, j'avoue n'avoir jamais trop fréquenté ses fast-foods et je ne saurai être affirmatif. Toutefois, je doute qu'une chaîne différencie ses messages standards entre pays francophones sur ce point précis.

Vortarulo Vortarulo January 27, 2013 January 27, 2013 at 10:33:58 PM UTC link Permalink

But some do indeed. However, I don't think that fast food chains tell their workers to say these sentences in EXACTLY this way. It's a fixed phrase by habit, but probably not by decree. It varies between people, so I can imagine it can vary between countries as well. McDonald's might train their personnel what to say to the customer, but not how to say it.
Besides, this is not really specified as a McDonald's sentence. Who knows what BurgerKing people say? I don't, I prefer McDonald's. ;)

sacredceltic sacredceltic January 27, 2013 January 27, 2013 at 10:42:26 PM UTC link Permalink

> I don't, I prefer McDonald's

Why am I not surprised ?...

I prefer correct sentences...

Vortarulo Vortarulo January 27, 2013 January 27, 2013 at 10:49:13 PM UTC link Permalink

Another surprise for you: me too!

Shishir Shishir January 28, 2013 January 28, 2013 at 12:09:21 AM UTC link Permalink

Qui a effacé l’étiquette de révision d'un natif et pourquoi ? On n'a pas encore eu de réponse d'un natif suisse francophone...

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais January 28, 2013 January 28, 2013 at 12:44:05 AM UTC link Permalink

Un CM a enlevé l'étiquette @change. Je mets maintenant @needs native check comme je trouve ça plus adapté. Malheureusement, ça peut s’avérer difficile de trouver quelqu'un de la Suisse romande ici.

Il y a des gens à qui je pourrais demander et qui sont de la région, mais on dirait qu'on ne me fait pas confiance ici, donc ça n'aiderait guère, je suppose. Le système actuel de confiance de Tatoeba me rend dingue parfois...

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais January 28, 2013 January 28, 2013 at 1:59:12 AM UTC link Permalink

Alors, j'ai reçu une réponse à ma question. Ceux qui me font confiance peuvent considérer ça comme un native check (j’enlève l'étiquette).

Voici ce que j'ai écrit :

Salut A,

J’espère que tout va bien. Si ça ne t’embête pas trop, j'ai une question concernant l'expression "sur place ou à emporter", ce qui se dit "sur place ou à l'emporter" ici en Suisse. Il semble qu'au Québec on dit également "pour ici" au lieu de "sur place" (l'influence américaine, peut-être). J'ai l'impression de l'avoir entendu aussi en Suisse, mais je me demande maintenant si ce n'était pas juste mon imagination. Pourrais-je te demander ton avis comme quelqu'un de la région ? Est-ce qu'on peut dire "C'est pour ici ou à l'emporter ?" ici en Suisse ?

Merci d'avance,

FdR

Et voici la réponse :

Salut FdR

Le sens et le même et dire "pour ici" n'est pas faux - perso, je trouve moins joli, mais c'est absolument correct. Seulement, en Suisse romande ou en France, on dira plus volontiers "sur place ou à l'emporter".

Bonne nuit

A

-----------

Alors, c'est bon pour moi (je me fiche de l'avis de SC, qui n'a contribué que des insultes à cette discussion). On peut continuer à discuter et mettre/enlever des étiquettes, mais la phrase est correcte pour moi et je laisse le reste aux autres.

sacredceltic sacredceltic January 28, 2013 January 28, 2013 at 6:39:20 AM UTC link Permalink

Et moi j'ai eu un courrier du Pape qui dit le contraire...