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marafon
4 days ago
CK
5 days ago
sharptoothed
10 days ago
Cangarejo
10 days ago
Cangarejo
13 days ago
Thanuir
14 days ago
ondo
14 days ago
ddnktr
14 days ago
ondo
14 days ago
AlanF_US
18 days ago
[not needed anymore- removed by CK]
It's funny to see where my "bad behaviour" has been used... x)
J'ai une suggestion/question à faire concernant la sélection du texte des phrases :
Souvent, je veux pouvoir copier une phrase pour la coller dans mon navigateur afin de faire des recherches, et je n'ai pas trouvé une bonne méthode pour sélectionner l'ensemble de la phrase simplement. En essayant de zoner le texte avec mon curseur, je clique souvent accidentellement sur les icônes de flèches vertes/grises sur la gauche.
Y aurait-il un moyen pratique de le faire, et sinon, serait-il envisageable de rajouter un bouton à côté de chaque phrase (donc pas seulement celle en tête, mais les phrases liées également) qui sélectionnerait le texte ou ferait directement un "copier" du texte de la phrase ?
Comme toujours: afin de ne perdre rien, ça serait bien, après une éventuelle discussion avec d'autres membres, d'envoyer la version finale de la suggestion à team@tatoeba.fr :)
Do por plilarĝigi la debaton, mi demandas en esperanto: Kiu havas problemojn kun kopii frazojn el Tatoeba? Kia metodon vi uzas?
Dann, um die Debatte ausdehnen, frage ich auf Deutsch: Wer hat Probleme mit kopieren Sätze aus Tatoeba? Welche Methode wenden Sie an?
So, to widen the debate, I ask in English: Who has problems with copying sentences from Tatoeba? Which method do you use?
I agree that it can be a pain with Firefox (Opera is better) because the text you're selecting is a link. With Firefox you can get around the issue by holding in the "Alt" key while you select the text.
I don't like the idea of designing websites to fit browsers (as opposed to simply following standards) but given the prefalence of Firefox, it might be worth reconsidering this aspect of the interface.
(fr) J'utilise Chrome, et c'est le même problème.
(eo) Mi uzas Kromo, kaj estas la sama problemo.
(de) Ich nutze Chrome und es ist das gleiche Problem.
(en) I use Chrome, and it's the same pain.
I have some problems because I can edit every sentence, so it turns immediately in a "form mode". I have to click on the sentence, press ctrl A and carefully avoid to press enter or whatever re-send the sentence.
The best solution for me is a little coloured button for copying the whole text, as you said too.
[not needed anymore- removed by CK]
Yes, yes, but this doesn't happen frequently for me to copy something ^^
I never had a problem in Opera, but in browsers like Firefox this can be quite annoying, yes. If you want the whole sentence, dragging from the left margin should work.
Je suis d'accord. Je vais souvent copier des phrases pour les mettre en Google Translate -- afin de mieux comprendre les mots inconnus -- et toujours avec difficulté.
+1
Well I'm off for the day. I can report to our Esperanto group that we made 40,000.
Nia esperanto-grupo festos ĉivespere, ke ni atingis 40 mil frazojn:)
The site represents languages by national flags, instead of, say, using "for example" in each language's script...how bad is that?!
Actually, I was the one to raise the issue earlier.
This has been sort of "discussed", though not quite, since certain users didn't see that it could be the subject of debate. The problem is that, as a matter of course, people whose country is strongly and exclusively associated with a single "national" language don't understand such problems at all, but people living in countries such as India, which counts over 400 languages, understand it very well. In the world, there are more nations, from Switzerland to Togo, China or Mauritius, that are plurilingual than nations that are monolingual, but this seems to have escaped the attention of many.
I agree that flags are nationalist symbols that do not adequately represent languages.
For instance, the flag for the English language is the British flag, although, on one hand, a number of other languages are spoken in Great Britain, so it is kind of an insult to the speakers of these other languages, especially when they are indigenous and have predated English on the island, such as Welsh, and on the other hand there are far more English speakers outside of Great Britain than inside.
I understand, though, that flags are nifty visual helpers.
Alternative visual coding systems have been proposed, although there doesn't seem to be any standardisation within sight on the web.
In any case, I think the British flag is the worst possible option to represent the English language. It should be either the red cross of Saint George alone or some other kind of symbol.
I personally support international standards, so I think the 3-letter ISO-639-3 codes should be applied.
I personally feel that the British flag is fine for English, as is the Indian flag for Hindi. They might not be a 101% politically correct, but they are intuitive, aesthetically pleasing and what most people would expect. I don't think it is an insult to, say, Bengali that Hindi gets the Indian flag, because it is India's national language (though not the "official" language) and has the greatest number of native speakers. The same goes for China and Mandarin. Cantonese, which has its home in Hong Kong has the flag of Hong Kong which I think is most appropriate. Again, I think the idea should be to pick a flag or symbol that is representative and makes it immediately obvious to anyone which language is under discussion. The current system achieves this, and I would not like it to be substituted for some three-letter language codes, which would just look bad.
> the British flag is fine for English, as is the Indian flag for Hindi. They might not be a 101% politically correct, but they are intuitive, aesthetically pleasing and what most people would expect.
I seriously doubt a majority of indian citizens share your view. I can assure you a majority of Welshmen don't.
I remember there were riots in the 60s in India about Hindi being proposed as the sole official federal language. English was actually retained as an auxilliary federal language in India just for the purpose of avoiding Hindi to become too dominant and in order to quench the deadly riots..;which reminds us all that people are ready to die for a language...
As you probably know, actually, Hindi is an official language in 12 States (5 where it is exclusive) and Union territories of the Indian Union, out of 35, ans is spoken by 41% of the population of the Indian Union which hosts 29 languages with over a million speakers, and 14 over 10 million speakers...
The SIL Ethnologue lists 415 living languages for India http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li...akers_in_India
And we think we have problems in Belgium with 3 or in the EU with 30...
I don't think either of us are going to get anywhere in trying to guess what the majority of people want. I suggest playing it by ear. If many Tatoeba users write to Tatoeba complaining about the flag of India being used as a symbol for Hindi, we should consider a change then based on some sort of poll.
I don't think the debate is centred on Hindi and I don't think that polling a handful of users on Tatoeba will solve this issue, which spans the entire world wide web and its 2 billion users...
The fact remains that not only using flags is extremely politically incorrect, but flags are not even practical when dealing with more than a handful of languages...
Here is some ideas I had on how to improve the database :
1. Link should be commentable : I happen to translate Spanish-French and in some cases, a translation makes sense only within a given context. Here is an example : "¿Ustedes han comido?" can only be translated to French "Avez-vous mangé" when the Spanish sentence is from latin America. But tagging "¿Ustedes han comido?" with Latin America tag would not make sense as this is really frequent in Spain, it just doesn't have the same sense.
2. One should be able to request sentences. If someone would like to have a better grasp of certain expressions, say, English "to feel like pins and needles", they should be able to add that somewhere so that native speakers can help them by providing examples.
3. Although opposed to deleting one's message in a comment thread, I understand that people can be bored with being flooded by messages from a thread they no longer follow. There could be an option to prevent messages from being sent to your email.
4. Multiple comment threads. Imagine the situation where a comment has been made on a spelling mistake, and you would like to annotate something like "this expression is only used in the South of Belgium", your comment will probably be missed by potential readers.
These were my thoughts of the day :)
As always, you should write an e-mail (probably in French ^^) to team@tatoeba.fr
For what I know, proposals 2 and 3 are already in the queue (but please send them anyway) :)
Hey,
Some languages have the first letter in upper case, some don't, so it's all mixed up :
Armenian
Basque
Bengali
[...]
afrikaans
albanais
The languages with a capital letter aren't translated yet (English has capital letters) into French, Italian etc. the other ones are. For helping translating, read this FAQ:
http://tatoeba.org/ita/faq#translate-interface
:)
Hey,
let me introduce myself and ask youse a couple questions.
I'm French, an engineer in math & computer sciences, and a language lover as most of youse are.
I've seen in some comments that scripts had been designed to automatically remove and link cloned sentences, or trim extra spaces, and such on, but there was still work to be done. I'm a fellow Gentoo user and I might be able to help on that :)
Is there any plan to create an application that would read the data file and parse it ? If anyone is interested, we could sort of start something :)
Cheers,
Victor.
This is interesting. I wish I could have a chat with sysko when he's available. I don't mean to interfere with his work, as I know it can be irritating to have other people meddle with what you worked from A to Z, but maybe I could give him a hand on certain parts, ... I dunno :)
Yes, there are exciting times ahead. Sysko is pretty busy with having recently moved to China but occasionally drops in on IRC. Just to wet your appetite until we get an official announcement (maybe something on the blog -- hint, hint), I believe sysko plans on writing the new Tatoeba site in C++ with the CppCMS framework (available in the funroll-loops overlay).
(psst: you can easily find sysko on IRC when in China is late in the evening, so here around 15h-17h :D)
For getting more visibility, you should also write a PM to Trang or sysko, but me too I will notify them as soon as possible :)
The script now fuses duplicate sentences, and nothing more than this. Scripts for spaces and typography stuff are only planned for a distant future (because we don't have a lot of programmers here at the moment ^^'), so you are welcome to help in this (and any other) field! :D
In addition to Pharamp's comment, it's worth mentioning that if I'm not mistaken, the new tatoebadb has been completed so work will now move to developing the new interface. The code should live in an on-line repository and I'm sure sysko would be very happy with all the help he can get with coding and testing.
The new database is, by the way, designed specifically for Tatoeba and will be vastly more powerful than the current one. For one, it will allow for real time searches so duplicate sentences can be detected as they are being committed. :-)
Je suis choqué que certains utilisateurs utilisent des pseudonymes multiples sur Tatoeba pour leur servir de claque ou jouer des tours à d'autres utilisateurs.
Ce comportement est inacceptable sur un service collaboratif, qui devrait être ouvert et transparent.
Je propose que les utilisateurs multiples depuis la même adresse IP ou le même sous-domaine soient systématiquement bloqués et que tout utilisateur pris en flagrant délit d'utiliser ce type de tactique soit banni du service.
----------
I find schoking that some users use multiple pseudos on Tatoeba to serve as cheering pack or to play tricks to other users.
This is an unacceptable behaviour on such a collaborative service, which should be open and transparent.
I suggest multiple users from the same IP subdomain be systematically blocked and that any user being caught resorting to such tactics be banned from the service.
I know only of two users who have created and used additional accounts, boracasli and FeuDRenais, but don't think it was ever any doubt who they were. I didn't notice whether boracasli ever tried to hide his identity on his secondary accounts after his block, but there was hardly ever any doubt who was behind dimasadventures.
I do share your view that users should not resort to creating extra accounts with the intent of deceiving the community.
I can see no evidence that the user formally known as FeuDRenais tried to trick you or anyone else -- or even that you were confused as to the identity of the username. The contributor chose a pretty transparent username, referring to the set of sentences tracing the story of Dima that FeuDRenais has been contributing. He furthermore referred to previous discussions with you and others making his identity clear.
But, yes: users whose behaviour harms the community should (and have been) blocked. That behaviour isn't restricted to creating secondary usernames.
[not needed anymore- removed by CK]
>My first impression was that he just set up another account, so that he could keep his "Dima's Story"sentences grouped under another (descriptive) username. To me, this seems like a perfectly good reason to have 2 usernames.
Then he shouldn't use different identities in same threads, which just confuses people who read the thread. It's like I would change face in a face to face discussion. I find such behaviour absolutely deceitful and despicable!
Just for the record, Demetrius did once (very briefly).
Regarding mine, I'll get rid of it in a few weeks, don't worry. And I don't intend to play pranks or fool anyone with it (though I admit, the possibilities are just so tempting!)
Oh, and I would never deny the messages I wrote using this account. Not in a 100 years.
In fact, if there's a way, I would love them to be exported to my standard account, so that they don't get lost when this one's dumped.
>But, yes: users whose behaviour harms the community should (and have been) blocked. That behaviour isn't restricted to creating secondary usernames.
Like menacing to "stab" people for instance? Or proclaiming they have "dirty hands"?
>I can see no evidence that the user formally known as FeuDRenais tried to trick you or anyone else
Yes, it's a trick anyway, because this way, he avoids holding messages in his message history that he doesn't want to take responsibility for.
This way, he "hides" part of his activity on this service and this tricks other users.
As such, it is despicable and shameful, as everything that can deceive people.
There are a lot of (personal) feelings here. I want to remind everyone to be fair respectful to everybody.
Please read the blog of Trang: http://blog.tatoeba.org/2010/09...espectful.html
If there's a need to go on a personal level please write a PM and not on the wall. Thanks!
>There are a lot of (personal) feelings here. I want to remind everyone to be fair respectful to everybody.
My message wasn't personal AT ALL. It is Swift who started to name names, not me...
I do not take responsibility for this outing.
I agree. Multi-User for destructive reasons would not be fair to the comunity. But if you ban users from the same IP, think about e.g. families where maybe many users share an IP or even the same computer. In the last case you even can not get this by using cookies.
>think about e.g. families where maybe many users share an IP or even the same computer
Well, then you would have to explain yourself to the admin and justify the situation. I doubt there are many cases of multiple Tatoeba addicts within families, given that we're less than 3000 users out of a world population of 7 billions..
I feel trust among contributors is essential and there is no trust now because a few individuals pervert the service. So measures must be taken and that comes with a cost. Trust is indeed costly.
In addition to being strongly against any kind of repression, I can see a lot of technical troubles.
First, "subdomains" have little to do here, we usually employ this term when it comes to dividing a domain name into distinct parts : qdii.machin.com, sacredceltic.machin.com are different subdomains of the main domain machin.com.
What come closest is IP address classes but once again, this is something that is far away from what I think you refer to. IP classes are a bunch of - for instance - thousands of IP addresses given to the provider (such as Orange, or AOL). Each of them is then dealt to the final consumers.
Now what you are saying imply that every user is given one unique IP address, but this is misleading. kroko pointed out that family could have many. I would like to extend that idea a bit : an enterprise could wrap all its workers' computer address into one unique external IP address. This can be done at larger scales too, such as land and countries (China if you hear me). This is called Net Address Translation and is just totally transparent to the website.
Some people might have more than one IP address too : I sometimes connect from work on my spare time, and my internet provider holds the right to change my IP address at any time.
These, in addition to IPv6 coming up in the next years, makes banning upon IP address irrelevant :)
and you obviously know a lot about it and rejoice at this, huh?
I know a lot about it simply because I'm an engineer in computer sciences.
Je ne m'en réjouis pas, ça m'est égal : je n'ai qu'un seul compte de toute façon.
Je trouve juste ça dommage de devoir imposer un système aussi drastique. Je me demande aussi quelle utilité il y a à avoir plusieurs comptes, même pour qqn qui veut foutre la merde : au pire, pour les mêmes raisons que celles que j'ai évoquées, tu recrées un compte avec une autre ip et voilà.
>Je ne m'en réjouis pas
yes, you did rejoice at it with your smiley. A smiley is suppoosed to be a way to show satisfaction, as far as I have been told...
>Je me demande aussi quelle utilité il y a à avoir plusieurs comptes, même pour qqn qui veut foutre la merde
Well, I don't debate the reasons why people use such deviant behaviours as using multiple identities on websites such as this. But the fact is that a few do, and doing so, they breach the communities' trust.
>It's called ad hominem argument.
I beg your pardon?
Well, I've taken this bad habit to add smileys everywhere, it can be confusing sometimes. Really I put them to appease people.
My point was just to stress that this is not feasible. But anyway, the problem is not with the user having many accounts, but with the user himself really.
I mean, I don't mind anyone having more than one account as long as he behaves. I just can't find any reasons to do so :)
Conversely, I would mind someone with one account not behaving.
It's called ad hominem argument.
Ah, sorry, it's not even an argument...
I got your point. But imagine that even Taoeba-Fans often heard from friends about this site. So it's thinkable that they'll meet in real live and share the same Net. Moreover liguistic student who surf in the same University Net.
E.g. me and 'esocom' are somtimes sharing the same Net, cause he's my E-o teacher and sometime we do a Taoeba lesson in the classroom, were everyone brings it's own Netbook.
Please, don't ban me...!?
I see, you're encouraging affairs in the business, huh?
It might become a bit confused with affairs and multiple pseudos, though...
Anyway, using multiple pseudos in services like this, is shameful. I can think of no other word to describe it.
It's called argumentum ad hominem.
Sometimes I make mistakes (well, all the time). Other Hungarian contributors may translate the same sentence in the future. It was the second time, when I saw, they translated well. And my translation was crappy. But I do not think, they "can" comment to my sentence, when I translated for example from Japanese, and they will translate it from German/Slovak. They may do not know where was it misinterpreted. They can not advise a translation if they understand the German one, and I understand a Japanese. Result: New Hungarian sentence will be created, I mean duplicated (but their last one is the correct translation). Solution: When I saw, they made a second (Hungarian) version, linked from another language (German) than mine (Japanese), I would check my sentence if I feel I did something wrong in the past. But I can not check up on myself, if I do not receive a message: "New translation added on one of your sentences in Hungarian" or something like that. That was my complain. Hah, maybe there is nothing wrong with the system (tatoeba, contributions, translation links), it was my fault. Maybe I miss a system what is more fault-tolerant, I mean if I faulted, made mistake. Maybe I need a private "ban me" button. Sorry :D. But I really do not know how can I fight against my clumsy sentences.
If I understand you correctly, you're saying that you would like to get notices when there are translations to sentences (e.g. German) that are related to the one you've translated from (e.g. Japanese), so you can compare them.
Currently there is no such feature as contributors are simply trusted to be sufficiently proficient in the languages they are translating to and from. Adding safeguards to help users spot their mistakes could lower their guard and actually lower the quality of committed sentences.
I would suggest that if you find you're making mistakes, you should just reassess at what level you're confident with contributing at. If you're interested in challenging yourself, you could see if you can team up with a proficient user at a community such as http://lang-8.com to review your work before committing it to Tatoeba.
Possibly in the future when the new Tatoeba interface gets implemented, one could even imagine a service allowing users to contribute sentences that would be committed to the corpus via the planned API once another contributor has verified it as a natural sentence and an accurate translation. http://tatob-8.com, anyone?
Maybe you can ask some other Hungarian translators for help to chec your sentences. I do that with my translations. They would be all cross checked by some friends around the planet.
So I got a daily feedback on my translations, and I fail a lot. ;p
I wanted to put forward the following sentence as a translation challenge:
"I looked around and noticed that I was the only car on the road."
The key element that I am testing about this phrase is whether languages other than English can refer to one's car as oneself ("I", in this sentence).
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/584979
The sentence is number 584979. I linked another English sentence with the same meaning, but referring to the car as "mine" instead of "I".
In a lot of children's books you have anthropomorphic cars, as in the Disney Movie "The Love Bug". so it should be possible in any language and it will sound strange in all languages if you don't realize the context.