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GrizaLeono GrizaLeono October 7, 2010 October 7, 2010 at 6:16:34 PM UTC link Permalink

Mi Esperantigis la anglalingvan mesaĝon de TRANG, kiu tuŝas la konatan lingvobaran problemon:
"Problem: How to give better support/help to new (and not so new) members?"
_________________________________________________________
Problemo: Kiel pli bone subteni/helpi novajn (kaj ne tiel novajn) anojn?
_________________________________________________________
La komunumo signife kreskis kaj unu el la aperantaj problemoj estas la lingva baro. Ni povas vidi, kiel ĝi estas problemo pri Esperanto. La problemo estas, ke ni ideale havu teamon da moderigantoj, kiuj povas kovri ĉiujn lingvojn, kiujn ni aldonis... sed tio nun ne estas la kazo.

Tamen, nomumi moderigantojn ne estas la plej urĝa farendaĵo laŭ mi. Moderigado estas relativa granda parto da respondecoj. Ju pli granda la komunumo, des pli da respondecoj. Moderigantoj fakte devas havi profundan komprenon pri la projekto kaj tio necesigas tempon. Se vi sentas, ke vi tamen povus esti moderiganto, bonvolu sendi al mi privatan mesaĝon.

Mi volus unue sugesti ion alian. Mi ne scias, kiel utila ĝi estos, sed mi pensas, ke ĝi meritas provon.

1) Mi sendos privatan mesaĝon al iuj kaj diros al ili, ke, se ili havas iun problemon aŭ demandon rilatan al la projekto, ili ne hezitu starigi demandon al mi. Mi provos helpi ilin tiom, kiom mi povas.
2) En mia profilpriskribo mi aldonos ligilon al ilia "kontribua" paĝo tiel, ke mi povas simple iri al mia profilo kaj klaki sur la ligilojn por kontroli iliajn lastajn frazojn, rimarkojn, ktp.
3) Mi petos ilin aldoni, en sia profilpriskribo, ligilon al mia profilpaĝo, por indiki, ke ili havas iun, kiu helpos ilin. Jen ekzemplo, kiel via profilo povus aspekti, jen mia: http://tatoeba.org/user/profile/TRANG
4) Mi petas ilin trovi aliajn personojn kaj fari la saman aferon, kiun mi faras por ili.

Kompreneble ni povintus havi tion kiel rubrikon anstataŭ uzi la profilpriskribon, tamen nun ni ne havas tempon por novaj rubrikoj, tial ni simple uzu tion, kio uzeblas...

Mi ne estas la sola, kiu volus havi laŭeble plej multajn homojn sentantajn sin NE izolataj, kiam ili aliĝas al Tatoeba. Sed neeblas, ke nur malmultaj homoj pritraktas centojn da homoj. Havi uzant-uzantosubtenan sistemon estas, mi pensas, la plej bona metodo por dividi la laboron kaj pritrakti la lingvobarilan problemon. Ankaŭ, havi tian informon (tio estas: kiu helpas kiun) helpos identigi tiujn, kiuj estas iom izolataj kaj kiuj bezonas pli da atento.

Estas verŝajne multaj, kiuj starigas al si iujn demandojn (Kiel mi povas scii, kiu estas la originala frazo? Kiel mi povas forigi mian frazon? Ĉu mi povas redakti mian komenton? Ĉu mi povas forigi mian konton? Kion mi faru, se mi rimarkas cimon?), sed la respondoj estas aŭ skribitaj nenie ajn, aŭ ne skribitaj en ilia lingvo. Eble iuj rezignis uzi Tatoeba-n pro tre malgravaj aferoj. Se ili scius, ke ili havas iun, je kiu ili povas kalkuli por starigi tiujn demandojn, ili verŝajne sentus sin multe pli komfortaj en la projekto kaj pli engaĝiĝus.

Ĉiuokaze, tio estas nur mia sugesto. Se iu havas pli bonan ideon, kiu NE necesigas kodadon de novaj rubrikoj, bonvolu sugesti.

PS: Se iu volas traduki ĉi tiun mesaĝon en aliajn lingvojn, tiel, ke neanglaparolantoj povu kompreni ĝin, ek!

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 7, 2010 October 7, 2010 at 2:09:23 PM UTC link Permalink

Y aura-t-il une possibilité d'enregistrer soi-même les audios associées aux phrases ?

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sysko sysko October 7, 2010 October 7, 2010 at 3:02:35 PM UTC link Permalink

C'est officieusement déjà possible.
Si tu es intéressé, je peux t'expliquer ici la procédure

Tu m'envoies un mail ou un message privé en me précisant les phrases que tu veux enregistrer (par exemple "mes phrases françaises", comme ça tu es sûr de la qualité de celles-ci)
comme ça je pourrai générer une liste que je te renverrai ensuite par email/ftp/pigeon voyageur etc.

ensuite il faut télécharger le kit shtooka et suivre les instructions ici
http://shtooka.net/soft/shtooka_recorder/fr/
je conseil de choisir qu'une sortie au format flac des audios, comme cela on a une taille minimal sans perte de qualité, et on pourra généré à partir de ces fichiers les versions ogg/mp3 etc.

une fois fini, tu peux compresser le dossier et nous l'envoyer par email/ftp/etc. et ensuite je m'occuperai de la conversion/intégration dans tatoeba

voilà, un jour on fera une jolie page de documentation expliquant le tout. Si tu as des questions, n'hésite pas.

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sysko sysko October 7, 2010 October 7, 2010 at 3:06:56 PM UTC link Permalink

d'ailleurs on me souffle dans l'oreillette que ce mois-ci avec un peu de chance le département esperanto de Standford pourrait enregistrer des audios.

boracasli boracasli October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 at 6:32:05 PM UTC link Permalink

Goodbye Tatoeba, have good time.

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 at 6:39:24 PM UTC link Permalink

Huh?

You can't be serious, boracasli. Are you leaving us?

Demetrius Demetrius October 7, 2010 October 7, 2010 at 8:47:36 AM UTC link Permalink

Hope you will come back! :)


Will you show us your programs when they're ready?

Dejo Dejo October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 at 8:11:44 PM UTC link Permalink

Esperanto 25000 nun Kafopaŭzo:)

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Leono Leono October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 at 8:13:54 PM UTC link Permalink

Germana lingvo, ni iras postĉase al vi!

MUIRIEL MUIRIEL October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 at 8:55:12 PM UTC link Permalink

Vi estas grandiozaj - gratulon kaj dankon al esperantistojn :) !

TRANG TRANG October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 at 2:48:43 AM UTC link Permalink

Problem: How to give better support/help to new (and not so new) members?

The community has been growing quite significantly and one of the emerging problems is the language barrier. We can see how it is a problem with Esperanto. The thing is, we should ideally have a team of moderators who can cover all the languages we have added... but it is currently not the case.

However, nominating moderators is not the most urgent thing to do in my opinion. Being moderator is quite a bit of responsibilities. The bigger the community, the more responsibilities. Moderators really need to have a deep understanding of the project and it takes time. If you feel you could be a moderator though, please send me a private message.

I'd like to suggest something else first. I don't know how useful it will be, but I think it's worth trying.

1) I'm going to send a private message to some people and tell them that if they have any problem or question related to the project, they should not hesitate to ask me. I will try to help them as much as I can.
2) In my profile description, I'm going to add a link to their "contributions" page so that I can simply go to my profile and click the links to check their latest sentences, comments, etc.
3) I'm going to ask them to add, in their profile description, a link to my profile page, to indicate that they have someone to help them. To give you an example of how your profile could look like, here's mine: http://tatoeba.org/user/profile/TRANG
4) I'm going to ask them to find other people and do the same thing I'm doing for them.

Of course we could have it as a feature instead of using the profile description, but right now we don't have time for new features so we'll just use whatever we can use...

I'm not the only one who would like as many people as possible NOT to feel isolated when they join Tatoeba. But it's impossible for just a few people to take care of hundreds of people. Having a user-to-user support system is, I think, the best way to distribute the work and handle the language barrier problem. Also, having that kind of information (i.e. who is helping who) will help identifying people who are a bit isolated and who need more attention.

There are probably a lot of people who ask themselves certain questions (How do I know which is the original sentence? How do I delete my sentence? Can I edit my comment? Can I delete my account? What should I do if I notice a bug?), but the answers are either not written anywhere or not written in their language. Perhaps some people have given up using Tatoeba because of very small things. If they knew they had someone they can count to ask these questions, they will probably feel much more comfortable in the project and will be more involved.

Anyway, that's just my suggestion. If anyone has a better idea that does NOT involve coding new features, please suggest.

PS: If anyone wants to translate this message into other languages, so that non-English speakers can understand it, go ahead.

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Swift Swift October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 at 3:01:51 PM UTC link Permalink

Like xtofu, I like the idea of new-user support, but I'm similarly sceptical. Rather than add social web features that connect individuals, my experience has been that one much more often needs the attention of the general community.

I think that effective documentation can go a long way and was recently thinking that a few-minute run through the Tatoeba features would be a great idea. I was happy to see the recent documentation translation effort and hearing that Tatoeba might have a wiki for documentation soon. Alternatively, we could also set up documentation at Wikibooks. I'd be happy to volunteer for either of these if no-one beats me to it.

I think the Wall has long outgrown the functionality in it's role as the main centre of communication. I've often thought a way to see which comments in a conversation haven't been read and searching comments would be super useful.

For users who might prefer one-on-one communication we could appoint "ambassadors" in various languages and see if people contact them rather than post messages on the wall. If so, then we can look into some sort of a buddy-system.

The idea of a contact-list could still be useful. So far, however, I don't see this as a huge issue. The users who read the documentation don't need much support, and the ones that don't aren't going to contact anyone before their mistakes are caught. Clear and easily accessible documentation and simple means of communication are however in my opinion the most useful steps we could take in making life easier for new users.

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TRANG TRANG October 7, 2010 October 7, 2010 at 9:48:50 AM UTC link Permalink

I like the idea of having "ambassadors". It's pretty much what I wanted, but I guess I was thinking too far ahead... My suggestion was sort of having ambassadors helping out other users so that these other users would someday become ambassadors and help out other users, etc.

Anyway, having good and clear documentation will definitely solve a lot of things, but documenting is also a lot, lot, lot of work and even with documentation, we will still need people who can dedicate time to give support because most people won't read the documentation before they start contributing and some people won't understand certain things even if they are documented...

Whoever wants to volunteer to be an ambassador, let me know. I can add in the contact page and the help page something like this:

------------------

If you don't speak English or French very well, you can try to contact one of our ambassadors instead, and write in a language you are more comfortable with.

- Japanese: blay_paul, CK
- German: MUIRIEL, xtofu80
- Esperanto: Espi, antuno
- Polish: zipangu
- Russian: Demetrius
[etc...]

------------------

As for the Wikibook, I think it would be better to first have some tutorial videos that explain how Tatoeba works... We have a video that explains the idea, but nothing that actually shows how things work. Just very short videos (1 minute, or 2 at most) that newcomers can watch to learn how to use Tatoeba.

I can then add them on the "Help" page (http://tatoeba.org/help) which is also the first page people land in after they register (for those who registered after June or July...).

If someone can sum up the contributor's guide into a less than 2 minutes video, they would be my hero.

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Scott Scott October 7, 2010 October 7, 2010 at 4:11:00 PM UTC link Permalink

I also like the idea of a Wiki. It's usually a pretty efficient documentation method.

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 at 3:15:35 PM UTC link Permalink

> Rather than add social web features that connect individuals...


If Tatoeba ever becomes like Facebook, I think I'm going to cry. I won't leave, but I'll definitely cry... a few times.

Otherwise, I think the buddy system requires too much effort and would turn too many people away. There are too many intellectuals on Tatoeba, and intellectuals *hate* being held by the hand.

I do support effective documentation, though.

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Demetrius Demetrius October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 at 3:19:11 PM UTC link Permalink

<offtopic>
> If Tatoeba ever becomes like Facebook,
> I think I'm going to cry.

He-he. Intelligence agencies can use data from Tatoeba right now. ;)
</offtopic>

Demetrius Demetrius October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 at 2:40:15 PM UTC link Permalink

Actually, I don’t think I’ve understood how this is going to work. :o

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Pharamp Pharamp October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 at 2:40:58 PM UTC link Permalink

I quote.

sysko sysko October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 at 2:58:15 PM UTC link Permalink

+1

xtofu80 xtofu80 October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 at 8:49:47 AM UTC link Permalink

Hello Trang. In general, your idea to support new users is a nice idea. However, the "unofficial" system in which the more experienced user contacts the new user feels a bit awkward, especially with the "please link my profile in your profile" passage.
If we do the contact via private message, it seems like we want to "control" other users. It would therefore be good if this system was publically explained on the introductory pages. It doesn't need to be a feature which needs a big implementation effort, but it should be transparent both to the experienced and the new user.

In general, I feel that the communication components of tatoeba need to be brushed up. While the core system itself works pretty well, apart from commenting on a sentence there is hardly any good way to communicate. E.g. if a topic is discussed on the wall, but then new topics appear, the old topics simply vanish.

gracehero gracehero October 4, 2010 October 4, 2010 at 1:17:31 AM UTC link Permalink

It would be nice if I could jump the previous page after login.

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Demetrius Demetrius October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 at 2:45:57 PM UTC link Permalink

This works for me.


But note you should click on the «Login» link, not open the «Login» login link in the new page. Then the form appears without opening a new page, and you are taken back after login.

At least this works for me...

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 at 6:49:11 AM UTC link Permalink

Comment se débarrasse-t-on des étiquettes injustifiées quand on ne sait même pas qui les a apposées ? Celui qui a apposé une étiquette est-il destinataire des courriels de commentaires s'il n'est pas propriétaire de la phrase et n'y a pas au préalable associé de commentaire ?
Etant donné l'importance croissante attribuée à ces étiquettes, ne faudrait-il pas un minimum de fonctions permettant au propriétaire d'une phrase de savoir qui les appose ?
Par ailleurs, cette croissance de l'importance de étiquettes - en anglais - devient plus que jamais inaccessible à ceux qui ne sont pas anglophones...

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Demetrius Demetrius October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 at 1:10:37 PM UTC link Permalink

I totally agree. This is a problem indeed.

Ideally, tags should have much more functions than they have now: tag change history, metadata about tags, things like this.

But, since it’s too much work and we have too few programmers… :o I guess we have to wait for the new version of Tatoeba to appear (because, as far as I understand, sysko is reluctant to add too many features to the current version of Tatoeba, that will soon become obsolete). :(

Moderators can delete anyone’s tags, so you can write a comment, and probably someone will edit it. I suggest using a «@tagme» (or sth like this) tag to attract attention to sentences with wrong tags.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 at 2:32:04 PM UTC link Permalink

(en) So let me rephrase this: Only anglophone moderators can manage tags only in English and without leaving traces...
I'm thrilled!

(eo) Do lasu min alivortigi tion: Nur anglalingvanaj moderiguloj regas en la angla ekskluzive anglaetikedojn kaj sen poststrioj...
Mi estas entuziasma!

(fr) Donc je reformule cela; Seulement des modérateurs anglophones peuvent gérer, en anglais, des étiquettes exclusivement en anglais et sans laisser de traces...
Super !

Swift Swift October 5, 2010 October 5, 2010 at 5:13:25 PM UTC link Permalink

*** Sentence number inconsistency ***

This may be insignificant as it's hardly harmful and may well be solved with the new version of Tatoeba, but I figured I'd mention it anyway.

The list of the number of sentences in each language on the Tatoeba home page shows a different number to that given when listing the sentences. Take for example the Yiddish sentences which the list on
http://tatoeba.org/eng/home
gives as 12, but
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentence...ne/indifferent
shows as 11.

Some languages have similar inconsistancies (Danish is down by three, German by five and English by twenty) while others are fine (e.g. Swahili and Slovak).

MUIRIEL MUIRIEL September 30, 2010 September 30, 2010 at 10:32:53 PM UTC link Permalink

It seems that automatic mail alerts are not working again.

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Swift Swift October 4, 2010 October 4, 2010 at 10:37:21 PM UTC link Permalink

I've not really noticed a drop in email notifications. I've been getting notifications all along. Might this be a problem with spam filters?

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sacredceltic sacredceltic October 4, 2010 October 4, 2010 at 11:25:37 PM UTC link Permalink

No it's not spam filters...

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gracehero gracehero October 5, 2010 October 5, 2010 at 2:06:11 AM UTC link Permalink

I guess it is not spam filter, nor gmail problem.
The new comment alert for per user works well, and from next it has no alert. It may be next comment (per user)events are catched not right.

gracehero gracehero October 5, 2010 October 5, 2010 at 2:08:41 AM UTC link Permalink

BTW, what is the mailer?

Pharamp Pharamp October 3, 2010 October 3, 2010 at 9:30:24 PM UTC link Permalink

I cannot manage to enter on my hotmail account since yesterday. Why? :(

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Scott Scott October 4, 2010 October 4, 2010 at 4:49:21 AM UTC link Permalink

It might have been hacked. Try the password recovery service.

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Pharamp Pharamp October 4, 2010 October 4, 2010 at 10:51:36 AM UTC link Permalink

Well, the problem is that the whole Hotmail doesn't work. It's not my account, I can't manage to load the site firstly... it's terrible :'(

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Shishir Shishir October 4, 2010 October 4, 2010 at 1:40:02 PM UTC link Permalink

:S It must be just in Italy, because here in Spain I can enter in my hotmail account without any problems...

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Pharamp Pharamp October 5, 2010 October 5, 2010 at 3:08:13 PM UTC link Permalink

I put the wrong url adress (Firefox put it automatically!!! :P) now it's working.
It seems that the redirect www.hotmail.it doesn't go anymore to the webmail.

sacredceltic sacredceltic October 4, 2010 October 4, 2010 at 12:37:31 PM UTC link Permalink

long live gmail!

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Pharamp Pharamp October 4, 2010 October 4, 2010 at 3:29:11 PM UTC link Permalink

our problems about notifications are made by gmail :P

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sacredceltic sacredceltic October 4, 2010 October 4, 2010 at 3:53:00 PM UTC link Permalink

well, at least, I never got stranded from my own account...

keklesurvivant keklesurvivant October 4, 2010 October 4, 2010 at 9:51:00 PM UTC link Permalink

I remember that Gmail is quite restricting when trying to use its servers to send mails in a PHP application in order to prevent from spamming, and thus requires specific settings to make it work correctly

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais September 30, 2010 September 30, 2010 at 11:21:27 PM UTC link Permalink

Something's really bad with Google lately... Anyone know a possible reason?

I find that my G-Mail has been lagging a lot over this past month, and now this is the second time that the alerts have gone astray.

MUIRIEL MUIRIEL October 5, 2010 October 5, 2010 at 11:24:12 AM UTC link Permalink

just for info: comments work well again for me (and I guess for the others who noticed the problem, too) since about 2 days.

sigfrido sigfrido October 3, 2010 October 3, 2010 at 6:13:06 PM UTC link Permalink

Kiu Esperantisto povas helpi al mi?
Jen mia problemo: Mi ne scias entajpi literojn kun supersignoj.
Kiel mi devas manipuli. Respondo bonvolu al mia privata retadreso: s.schlumberger@t-online.de
antcipe dankas sigfrido

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tsukimori tsukimori October 3, 2010 October 3, 2010 at 6:56:18 PM UTC link Permalink

Se vi uzas Windows 9x/ME/NT/2000/XP/Vista, bonvolu uzi "EK".
http://www.esperanto.mv.ru/Ek/

Se vi uzas Mac OS, vi povas uzi "U.S. Extended".
aŭ uzi
http://kleg.jp/mac/klavaro_Esp_Uni_J.zip
malkompaktigu ĉi tiun arkivon kaj delokigu dosierojn al Macintosh HD/Library/Keyboard Layouts/

tsukimori tsukimori October 3, 2010 October 3, 2010 at 7:01:25 PM UTC link Permalink


http://sites.google.com/site/es...yboard/home/pc
por PC/Mac