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Swift Swift May 4, 2010 May 4, 2010 at 11:21:43 PM UTC link Permalink

I've been wondering how best to make notes of genders when translating from languages such as English that don't always differentiate between the different genders.

So far I've just been using the comments, but was figure this might eventually go into metadata. There are several interesting ways to tackle that, but in case it might help me pick what to put in the comments and how to form it, has it been decided how issues like these will be tackled? Should I perhaps just be adding an extra sentence for each variation?

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blay_paul blay_paul May 4, 2010 May 4, 2010 at 11:30:11 PM UTC link Permalink

I think this is one of a number of things that are 'on the backburner'. I don't think there's likely to be much done about it for some time.

I wouldn't go the route of adding extra sentences as that would just produce needless duplication of content.

I think what we need is
* Meta-data that is not included as annotations, but in a separate field.
* A method of showing / hiding meta data associated with a sentence.
* A format for entering the metadata, and translations for them (at least the most common ones).

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Swift Swift May 5, 2010 May 5, 2010 at 10:11:29 PM UTC link Permalink

Extra sentences wouldn't actually be needless duplication. They're essentially equally valid (though partially identical) sentences that happen to translate to the same sentence in at least one language. The main reason I haven't created them is that I'm hoping for a much more elegant solution later on.

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blay_paul blay_paul May 5, 2010 May 5, 2010 at 10:53:28 PM UTC link Permalink

Look there are 151,909 Japanese sentences. Each could have a feminine and a masculine variant. Each could be plain form or (-masu) form, and many would also have one or more extra polite versions. That would take you up to over 600,000 sentences (and probably give Trang a heart attack). If that isn't needless duplication I don't know what you'd call it.

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Swift Swift May 6, 2010 May 6, 2010 at 12:01:10 AM UTC link Permalink

I'd call it unhelpful.

Genders in Japanese are simple in that they don't affect conjugation. In other languages they do.

Take for example the Icelandic phrases:
o Hann var keyptur/seldur/gefinn. Þeir voru keyptir/seldir/gefnir.
o Hún var keypt/seld/gefin. Þær voru keyptar/seldar/gefnar.
o Það var keypt/selt/gefið. Þau voru keypt/seld/gefin.
that translate to English as:
o {{ '{{' }}He, she, it} was, they were} bought/sold/given.
As you see they are highly irregular and therefore a student of the language would be well served with examples of each.

The only problem I see with adding all these sentences lies in storing their relationships to each other. Cluttering the search results or translations overview with multiple translations for every Finnish pronoun is just silly. Such translations wouldn't be unnecessary though they wouldn't ultimately be helpful, and why metadata would really come in handy.

As for proliferation of sentences, I'd imagine they'd give Trang great joy -- provided that they're useful, of course. That's the point of the project, after all.

At 500 sentences a week, I'll hit 600,000 in 23 years. :-)

The community at large has, however, contributed an average of 324 sentences a day since the end of the late march slump which would add that many sentences in a little over five years, bringing the total number to 974,851 sentences.

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saeb saeb May 7, 2010 May 7, 2010 at 5:15:40 AM UTC link Permalink

ugh...I've got the same issue in Arabic, sure other languages do have it to. What I did was keep adding different conjugations to different sentences until I felt like I covered them all, and if I did add another conjugation to the same base sentence, I make sure to use different synonyms and wordings to say the same idea.

Nonetheless, I do agree that some kind of metadata to indicate conjugation (or any other nuances) in the future would be nice.

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saeb saeb May 7, 2010 May 7, 2010 at 5:16:15 AM UTC link Permalink

*too

Demetrius Demetrius May 5, 2010 May 5, 2010 at 1:39:33 PM UTC link Permalink

As for the metadata... I believe all those metadata should be attached to the original sentence, not to the translated one. I.e., [M], [F] should be not in Finnish (like they currently are), but to the English sentence that has gender disctinction (he/she). And Finnish should go unmarked.

Speaking on the metadata, I believe we also need a metadata for transcription, to fix it when it cannot be correcly generated automatically.

And also author and origin information for some sentences would be nice to have.

And a simple possibility to add IPA to sentences in any language would also be nice, though I'm not sure if this is really necessary.

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Swift Swift May 5, 2010 May 5, 2010 at 9:31:37 PM UTC link Permalink

I'm not quite sure what you mean by translated versus original sentences. Surely the idea is that they're equivalent. I do agree with you that the metadata should be associated with the more specific language.

It would be nice if one could define, for example, the genders of pronouns and contribute variations on these. That way, if one came across a Finnish sentence such as nº354807:
He väittivät, että hän tappoi hänet.
one could choose from the various Icelandic versions:
{Þeir, Þær, Þau} kváðu {hann, hana} hafa drepið {hann, hana}.
though implementing that could be a bit tricky.

I reckon it might be wiser to focus on improving the automatic generation algorithms and encourage people to report errors than adding comments on the readings.

As more people are able to record their voices than transcribe into IPA, these are probably largely unnecessary here on this project.

It might however be useful to get readings for symbols such as numbers. I tend to write these out rather than use numerals.

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Demetrius Demetrius May 6, 2010 May 6, 2010 at 1:10:00 PM UTC link Permalink

> Surely the idea is that they're equivalent.
Hmm... I thought that metadata is to be added by a translator to expain sentence that contains information that was lost or added during his translation, that’s why I’ve said about original sentence.
It shouldn’t be obvious from a sentence that it’s the original/a translation, of course.


> I reckon it might be wiser to focus on improving the automatic
> generation algorithms and encourage people to report errors than
> adding comments on the readings.
I do agree that improving algorithms is important. But there are situations when it’s impossible to generate transcription automatically because it requires complex grammar analysis or even understanding of the situation in which the sentence can be said.

Moreover, adding metadata for transcription will help to easily find problems with our current transcription algorithm. If people write this in comments, they’ll get lost. If a special field it designated for a transcription, these can be easily found by a DB search by those who improve the algorithm.


> As more people are able to record their voices than transcribe
> into IPA, these are probably largely unnecessary here on this project.
I’m not sure about this. Most people have at least some understanding of transcription and IPA because it is used at school.

The problem is with voice files is the high-quality required. As for me, it’s certainly easier for me to transcribe something than to to buy a microphone and learn how to use it.

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Swift Swift May 6, 2010 May 6, 2010 at 6:32:57 PM UTC link Permalink

OK, now I understand what you mean by "original" sentence. Personally I'm not quite sure where the information would best be stored. I've been sort of leaning towards only storing information about added information (i.e. more specific sentences). One of the problems with the information is that a sentence may be connected to several others and indicating what metadata refers to which "original" sentence might be difficult.

There are several solutions to this problem, but the ones I've been thinking may well be too complicated. Frankly, the current situation doesn't really bother me all that much.

While we're calling the solution different things, I completely agree with you on the transcription issue.

On the IPA, I'm not convinced of it's usefulness, but if you are, there certainly will be others who'd agree and benefit from it.

blay_paul blay_paul May 5, 2010 May 5, 2010 at 9:37:05 PM UTC link Permalink

> I'm not quite sure what you mean by translated
> versus original sentences. Surely the idea is that
> they're equivalent.

Yeah, that's the _theory_, but it often isn't the practice. To take one obvious example, if one of the sentences is a quote then the original source was only in _one_ of the languages - all the rest must be translations.

blay_paul blay_paul May 3, 2010 May 3, 2010 at 8:52:37 PM UTC link Permalink

Japanese index update

I've sent in an update to 716 records for the Japanese index data to the team@tatoeba.fr address - hope you can sneak them in. ;-)

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JimBreen JimBreen May 4, 2010 May 4, 2010 at 1:58:52 AM UTC link Permalink

I have been amending the indices in situ in a few places, so I hope we
don't overlap. Perhaps we need an RCS of some sort.

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blay_paul blay_paul May 4, 2010 May 4, 2010 at 3:43:28 AM UTC link Permalink

If there was a 'last changed' date field (to the nearest day) the SQL on the update could be made to avoid changing entries last changed past a certain day.

The risk of overlap isn't going to be huge though, so anything too complicated or tricky to implement may actually reduce work efficiency.

nickyeow nickyeow May 3, 2010 May 3, 2010 at 11:27:52 AM UTC link Permalink

I'm planning to add some Cantonese sentences. This might be a stupid question, but should I include the jyutping in the sentences?

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Demetrius Demetrius May 3, 2010 May 3, 2010 at 11:50:00 AM UTC link Permalink

As far as I can see, currently transcription isn't generated for Cantonese (eg. sent. No. 382502). But it's generated for Mandarin and Shanghainese, so I believe it'll be implemented in the future.

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sysko sysko May 3, 2010 May 3, 2010 at 2:55:40 PM UTC link Permalink

Yep you're right Demetrius, it will be added soon, adso as a beta support for jiutping, but if you know a good free software for Cantonese romanization, tell us :)

@nickyeow thanks to contribute (also) in Cantonese :)

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Demetrius Demetrius May 3, 2010 May 3, 2010 at 3:53:42 PM UTC link Permalink

I don't know any of these, unfortunately.

The only Cantonese wordlist with transcriptions I’ve seen is here: http://e-guidedog.sourceforge.net/cantonese.php , but it is inaccurate according to its creators.

Demetrius Demetrius May 3, 2010 May 3, 2010 at 11:45:31 AM UTC link Permalink

No, you shouldn’t. All transcription is generated automatically. Maybe it isn't generated for Cantonese (I don't know), but it should be generated in future.
But if you're inclined to, you can add transcription in comments. :)

It's good we'll have Cantonese sentences! :)

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cburgmer cburgmer May 3, 2010 May 3, 2010 at 11:50:23 AM UTC link Permalink

Btw, is Jyutping really employed more often than Yale? In all books I read and the course I attended Cantonese Yale was used.

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nickyeow nickyeow May 3, 2010 May 3, 2010 at 12:26:35 PM UTC link Permalink

In Hong Kong we usually use Jyutping, but you can also see Yale employed in some dictionaries.

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cburgmer cburgmer May 3, 2010 May 3, 2010 at 8:07:36 PM UTC link Permalink

At HKUST they teach Yale :)

nickyeow nickyeow May 3, 2010 May 3, 2010 at 12:27:14 PM UTC link Permalink

Thanks for your answer! :)

blay_paul blay_paul May 2, 2010 May 2, 2010 at 11:08:16 AM UTC link Permalink

Member status

I think it would be a good idea to be able to tell who has 'trusted user' status and who has 'admin access'. I suggest:

* Icon next to name in comments posted and next to posts on the wall.
* Full title given in the user's profile "%s is a Trusted-User" or something. Could make Trusted-User link to an explanation of what that means and how you get it.

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TRANG TRANG May 2, 2010 May 2, 2010 at 2:03:26 PM UTC link Permalink

There is a way to tell, but it's not obvious. From the "Members" section, if you re-organize by status, you can easily see who are the current trusted users:
http://tatoeba.org/eng/users/al.../direction:asc

But I agree it would be nice to be able to tell, right from the comments, what is the status of a user.

blay_paul blay_paul April 30, 2010 April 30, 2010 at 9:42:31 PM UTC link Permalink

I've read the latest Tatoeba Blog, but I'm going to comment here because I think more people read it. :-)

*******
I'm not 100% convinced by the 'adoption' approach, but I think it could work with a few adjustments. Here's one idea:

I think people (not the owners) should be able to issue an official 'call for action'. That call would only be able to be closed by the person who made it, or by a 'super user' (e.g. Trang, Sysko, etc.)

How it could work:

* User sees a sentence that is linked to a sentence that it is not a good translation of. User cannot unlink it because both sentences are owned.

* User posts a comment with the 'Call for action' checkbox ticked. "Please unlink this sentence from sentence 123XXX00 as it is not a good translation."

* Owner of sentence is notified. Owner of sentence has a link to a list of all currently open 'calls for action' on his sentences. The super users (Trang, Sysko) also have a similar link that works for all users.

* If, after one week, the call for action is _not_ closed the the ownership of the sentence is revoked and the person who posted the request is notified.

* The person who posted the request can close it at any time, when he is satisfied with the explanation given by the owner or action taken.

* Super-users (Trang, Sysko, etc.) can deal with the request themselves, and can also close the action item even if the person who made it is not satisfied (person making request might not come back to Tatoeba, it might have been a trivial or frivolous request).

This would give a formal and more easily trackable way of handling corrections needed to owned sentences, given that the owner may be away or may otherwise lose track of the comments made on his sentences.

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TRANG TRANG May 1, 2010 May 1, 2010 at 1:09:13 AM UTC link Permalink

> I've read the latest Tatoeba Blog, but I'm going to comment here because I think more people read it.

Actually I haven't posted about it here yet because it wasn't really official yet ;) I was still discussing it with sysko, and actually reviewed certain things, but the overall idea remains the same.

For now, we are focusing correcting sentences themselves, not the way they are linked. Because there are many sentences in French that could be corrected, and quickly, if only we took the time to check them in an organized way.

The whole linkage problem is of course something we will have to deal with, but it is actually in what would be the "phase 2". Not something we will work on yet... If we can already provide a "sentences.csv" that is not filled with spelling/grammar mistakes, it will be a good step forward.

blay_paul blay_paul April 30, 2010 April 30, 2010 at 7:22:11 PM UTC link Permalink

When will the Tatoeba interface next be updated from the Launchpad translation data? I've noticed that some of the more obvious mistakes are still around although I corrected them in Launchpad some time ago.

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TRANG TRANG April 30, 2010 April 30, 2010 at 9:22:55 PM UTC link Permalink

Next time should be tomorrow, when we update Tatoeba for bug fixes and small changes.

But generally speaking, the interface translations can be updated any time... Since it's not entirely automated, it's not regular... You have to remind me to do it ^^'

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blay_paul blay_paul May 1, 2010 May 1, 2010 at 7:26:23 PM UTC link Permalink

I see the interface update has gone through. I think it looks a lot better now.

blay_paul blay_paul April 30, 2010 April 30, 2010 at 8:49:16 PM UTC link Permalink

Notes on Tatoeba interface translation.

* Launchpad is no longer showing the full path to the source code. It doesn't include the website any more.

* Translation item 15

\controllers\user_controller.php:258

The original English is incorrect. It should be "Error" not "Erreur"

* Translation item 505

The original English has some minor errors.

"We really want to thanks" -> "We really want to thank"

"us a much more complete data files" -> "us much more complete data files"

"wouldn't have a so much complete IPA" -> "wouldn't have an IPA so complete."

Also, possibly "IPA table" rather than just IPA? (Not sure)

CK CK April 29, 2010, edited October 25, 2019 April 29, 2010 at 11:09:18 AM UTC, edited October 25, 2019 at 8:07:54 AM UTC link Permalink

[not needed anymore- removed by CK]

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TRANG TRANG April 29, 2010 April 29, 2010 at 11:48:11 PM UTC link Permalink

So, this is the link that get passed on from good contributor to good contributor:
http://blog.tatoeba.org/2010/02...n-tatoeba.html
I really need to put it somewhere so that more people will be enclined to read it. Anyway, as Paul explained, you should not change a sentence if it is valid.

But you have to know that only 'trusted users' can link/link sentences at the moment. The 'sentence_annotations' page as well can only be accessed by trusted users. This is because these features require a deeper understanding of Tatoeba and are not dummy-safe.

If you are interested in becoming a trusted user, you can just ask me :)

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saeb saeb April 30, 2010 April 30, 2010 at 12:19:11 AM UTC link Permalink

this is the link that get passed on from a crazy cult member to another:
[tatoeba's bible]
I really need to put it as the site's background image.
But you have to know that only 'elite cult members' can perform rituals at the moment.
If you are interested in becoming one, just ask to be initiated :P
-------------------------------------------
btw, are slangy sentences allowed on tatoeba...u know gaming slang, 1337 speak, gang slang...
PS watch out for the lame battle b/w arabic n portuguese :P

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL April 30, 2010 April 30, 2010 at 1:20:43 PM UTC link Permalink

which battle 0:-)?

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Demetrius Demetrius April 30, 2010 April 30, 2010 at 2:33:00 PM UTC link Permalink

Who gets more sentences. :)

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL April 30, 2010 April 30, 2010 at 4:06:20 PM UTC link Permalink

Oh, Demetrius, I didn't know that you battle saeb ;).

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saeb saeb April 30, 2010 April 30, 2010 at 5:19:52 PM UTC link Permalink

oh, MUIRIEL, let's pretend that you don't keep on adding portuguese until it's one more than arabic xD....I'm smelling a conspiracy...Let me guess, Trang is in on this too right? You guys are so on!

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brauliobezerra brauliobezerra May 1, 2010 May 1, 2010 at 1:52:18 PM UTC link Permalink

You're lucky I'm full of homework in these weeks :P

But I guess Portuguese and Arabic will both lose to Dorenda.

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Dorenda Dorenda May 1, 2010 May 1, 2010 at 2:30:54 PM UTC link Permalink

Well, I still have over 600 sentences to go before I catch up with Portuguese, and even more for Arabic, so if work hard, there still is a chance for you to stay ahead of Dutch. :P

MUIRIEL MUIRIEL May 1, 2010 May 1, 2010 at 4:13:29 PM UTC link Permalink

Why so paranoiac, saeb ;)?

Great work, brauliobezerra =)!

Demetrius Demetrius April 30, 2010 April 30, 2010 at 5:44:14 PM UTC link Permalink

I don’t battle anymody. :) I guess I have no chances to make Russian higher than Dutch until Dorenda’s around. :)

Demetrius Demetrius April 30, 2010 April 30, 2010 at 6:07:31 PM UTC link Permalink

Hmm... It seems I can declare war on Esperanto! :)))

TRANG TRANG May 1, 2010 May 1, 2010 at 11:33:20 PM UTC link Permalink

> btw, are slangy sentences allowed on tatoeba...u know gaming slang, 1337 speak, gang slang...

They are allowed, but if you do add these kind of sentences, it would be useful if you put them in a list. Also we prefer to avoid sentences that are "not safe for kids" until we have a way to tag them and filter them out (so that people who may use our content for educational purpose can only go for the more "decent" type of content).


> PS watch out for the lame battle b/w arabic n portuguese :P

You guys make me laugh (in a good way :P) It's actually entertaining to watch x)

PS: I had nothing to with it. Muiriel decided to pick on you on her own!

blay_paul blay_paul April 29, 2010 April 29, 2010 at 4:10:17 PM UTC link Permalink

*Corrected typo*

This is the official method, AFAIK.

1. Do not change either the Japanese or the English (provided that both Japanese and English are valid sentences).

2. Add a new sentence, as a translation, of either the Japanese or English.*

* For practical reasons it is best to add a new English translation of the Japanese as the Japanese needs index information adding. Also it is preferable to add sentences in your native, not second, language.

3. After adding the new translation, unlink the old translation. You can do this by 'owning' either the sentence being translated (Japanese) or the incorrect old translation (English), refreshing the page, and then clicking the appropriate 'scissor icon'.

4. The 'meaning' field of the Japanese index data will need to be changed to the ID of the new sentence. You can do that from this page
http://tatoeba.org/sentence_annotations/
although it may be easier just to leave a note / PM for me or Jim to do so.

blay_paul blay_paul April 29, 2010 April 29, 2010 at 8:17:35 PM UTC link Permalink

Linkage.

OK, I'm seeing a lot of cases where two sentences should be linked (or unlinked) but both are owned. Could we allow linking/unlinking between sentences even if we aren't the owners? It's slowing things down, especially as you can't count on people staying in Tatoeba.

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TRANG TRANG April 29, 2010 April 29, 2010 at 11:29:22 PM UTC link Permalink

Yes, but before I give more power to trusted users, I want to display the "latest links" somewhere (in the same way there's a page where you can see the latest sentences added/edited/deleted).

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saeb saeb April 30, 2010 April 30, 2010 at 12:24:58 AM UTC link Permalink

but isn't that too much power? technically trusted users can then 'disappear' a sentence, right?

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blay_paul blay_paul April 30, 2010 April 30, 2010 at 12:36:05 AM UTC link Permalink

They don't actually go anywhere, and can still be found by a whole bunch of methods.

Some sentences need to disappear, anyway ;-)

See
http://tatoeba.org/jpn/sentences/show/383895

It's linked to
http://tatoeba.org/jpn/sentences/show/336221
(which should be deleted)

It isn't directly linked to
http://tatoeba.org/jpn/sentences/show/383894
(but it should be)

At the moment I can't link it to the sentence it should be linked to, nor can I unlink it from the sentence it should be unlinked from.

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saeb saeb April 30, 2010 April 30, 2010 at 12:44:38 AM UTC link Permalink

I can see that you need it :), but generally speaking, if it gets implemented for trusted users...well it'll be possible for s.o. to unlink a sentence and cause it to be 'left behind' without the consent of it's owner...which is pretty close to deleting a sentence imo.

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blay_paul blay_paul April 30, 2010 April 30, 2010 at 12:51:48 AM UTC link Permalink

Well, dude*, we're either trusted or we're not.

* Hopefully correct.

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saeb saeb April 30, 2010 April 30, 2010 at 12:58:26 AM UTC link Permalink

yet there isn't any real criteria for getting trusted or not mate*.

* Hopefully correct.

CK CK April 22, 2010, edited October 25, 2019 April 22, 2010 at 10:39:51 PM UTC, edited October 25, 2019 at 8:02:25 AM UTC link Permalink

[not needed anymore- removed by CK]

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CK CK April 29, 2010, edited October 25, 2019 April 29, 2010 at 2:56:15 AM UTC, edited October 25, 2019 at 8:02:34 AM UTC link Permalink

[not needed anymore- removed by CK]

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blay_paul blay_paul April 29, 2010 April 29, 2010 at 3:27:54 AM UTC link Permalink

Actually both those cases, kimi and boku, are notorious for being very often used by the opposite gender to that expected by textbooks.

JimBreen JimBreen April 23, 2010 April 23, 2010 at 7:34:29 AM UTC link Permalink

Those [M] and [F] refer to the Japanese.

I added them years ago at someone's suggestion as it seemed like a good idea at the time 8-)}. Ideally they should be part of metadata associated with the Japanese. It wouldn't break my heart if they were removed from the English sentences entirely.

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CK CK April 23, 2010, edited October 25, 2019 April 23, 2010 at 10:05:14 AM UTC, edited October 25, 2019 at 8:02:13 AM UTC link Permalink

[not needed anymore- removed by CK]

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JimBreen JimBreen April 24, 2010 April 24, 2010 at 12:42:23 AM UTC link Permalink

I'd forgotten they were originally on the Japanese sentences. All the more reason to remove them from the English ones.

I think moving them back to the Japanese is more than a global replacement. I think it would be better to remove them totally.

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blay_paul blay_paul April 24, 2010 April 24, 2010 at 3:49:22 AM UTC link Permalink

> I think moving them back to the Japanese is more than
> a global replacement. I think it would be better to
> remove them totally.

I suggest holding your horses on the second part, at
least until Tatoeba has a meta data handling system up.