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jordi jordi July 10, 2010 July 10, 2010 at 4:28:05 AM UTC link Permalink

I wonder about the code of the project.
Being hosted by the FSF makes me think it is opensource but can't find the code anywhere.

I would like to suggest to host the code in a service like github or gitorious. I have seen previously other projects getting a developer community thanks of that.

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sysko sysko July 11, 2010 July 11, 2010 at 9:18:19 PM UTC link Permalink

http://www.assembla.com/code/ta...bversion/nodes the source code is here, under AGPL v3, for the "why don't you use github which is more "famous among developpers" I will simply answer "historical reason" at the beginning the project was made as a somewhat "one guy" (Trang) project and she didn't know so much about coding, what people use, free software etc. and now all the tickets etc. are on assembla and it's difficult to move

but don't worry, for some technical limitation, we plan to rebuild the website in python/django and then the project will be host on github, so we will wait this time to migrate to something more "standard" and easy to find for developpers who wants to help us.

CK CK July 10, 2010, edited October 26, 2019 July 10, 2010 at 4:35:24 AM UTC, edited October 26, 2019 at 3:59:57 AM UTC link Permalink

[not needed - removed by CK]

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Pharamp Pharamp July 10, 2010 July 10, 2010 at 11:53:58 AM UTC link Permalink

Where's Pharamp???

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Scott Scott July 10, 2010 July 10, 2010 at 3:43:26 PM UTC link Permalink

I think that it takes a few days for new sentences to be searchable. Searching for =Pharamp doesn't yield any results.

MUIRIEL MUIRIEL July 10, 2010 July 10, 2010 at 10:26:13 AM UTC link Permalink

That aren't all names that are on Tatoeba ;).

jordi jordi July 10, 2010 July 10, 2010 at 5:02:40 AM UTC link Permalink

I wonder if Spanish should be broken down in more specific languages.
In fact it is a difficult problem, maybe 85% of sentences may be the same for all the Spanish speaking countries but 15% may not be.

For instance, I came across "Is this a computer?"

Spanish from Spain would say: "¿Es esto un ordenador?"
Almost everywhere else would say: "¿Es esto una computadora?"

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL July 10, 2010 July 10, 2010 at 10:40:37 AM UTC link Permalink

I think separating Spanish into different languages wouldn't be a good solution. Think about the 85% of the sentences that are identic. You would then have to add them several times with different flags.
I think this problem should be solved with tags (like "Spain only").

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Pharamp Pharamp July 10, 2010 July 10, 2010 at 11:52:22 AM UTC link Permalink

Yes, tags exist for this purpose too^^
Now their features are quite basic and the ability to tag sentence is restricted to trusted_users, but in a few weeks/months I think it will be extended to everyone!

So, when this will happen, Jordi, feel free to tag every Spanish sentence with a regional tag :)

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sysko sysko July 11, 2010 July 11, 2010 at 9:14:41 PM UTC link Permalink

yep for English we already have "british" flag, so for some "regional" difference, tags will help make the difference, maybe after we will see to make something more specific than tags, but I think in a first time it's a good way to make the difference

MUIRIEL MUIRIEL July 10, 2010 July 10, 2010 at 10:43:00 AM UTC link Permalink

btw, there is a similar problem with Portuguese.

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL July 10, 2010 July 10, 2010 at 10:46:01 AM UTC link Permalink

ok, thinking about it, I think that this problem exists more or less in nearly all languages.
French from France vs French from Quebec
American English vs British English
German in Germany, in Austria, in Switzerland
and so on...

brauliobezerra brauliobezerra July 10, 2010 July 10, 2010 at 12:27:38 PM UTC link Permalink

I've thought about it sometimes, and my conclusion is that, since the governments of all Portuguese speaking countries are always making efforts to unificate at least the grammar and the orthography, we should put all of them under a single flag. This works well on Wikipedia, IMHO.

blay_paul blay_paul July 9, 2010 July 9, 2010 at 2:16:35 PM UTC link Permalink

Near duplicates - example case.

In accordance with earlier debate on this forum I have been removing near duplicate sentences from those exported to WWWJDIC instead of deleting them. However it was never, IMO, clear exactly when (if ever) deleting near duplicates from Tatoeba is recommended.

Here is one example:

http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/196748
べティは彼女を殺した。
Betty killed her.

http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/196749
べティは彼を殺した。
Betty killed him.

The only difference is whether 'her' or 'him' was the victim of Betty's crime of passion. Is it OK to delete one from Tatoeba or not?

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CK CK July 9, 2010, edited October 26, 2019 July 9, 2010 at 3:03:55 PM UTC, edited October 26, 2019 at 3:56:15 AM UTC link Permalink

[not needed - removed by CK]

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Demetrius Demetrius July 9, 2010 July 9, 2010 at 3:28:46 PM UTC link Permalink

Not all 'My name"'s are translated identically.



Bel. (Rus., Ukr.) make clear distinction between imia (first name) and proz'višča (last name).

Other languages may have other unexpected things (like changing gender), so the more the better.

CK CK July 9, 2010, edited October 26, 2019 July 9, 2010 at 3:24:43 PM UTC, edited October 26, 2019 at 3:56:05 AM UTC link Permalink

[not needed - removed by CK]

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sysko sysko July 9, 2010 July 9, 2010 at 3:26:45 PM UTC link Permalink

no sentence "Betty is a serial killer" ?

sysko sysko July 9, 2010 July 9, 2010 at 2:26:02 PM UTC link Permalink

http://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/sho...7#message_1237

so no, we do not delete for 2 reasons:
1 - some language learner (me at least) like to have a sentence in a target language, and to see how it changes depending of tense etc.
2 - we will use them for natural language processing

moreover I think contributors will by themselves limit the number of variation they add on a single sentence

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sysko sysko July 9, 2010 July 9, 2010 at 2:38:31 PM UTC link Permalink

but I agree that when sentences like these are found, it needs to be noted in comments with links to each other,and maybe add them a tag, in order to ease @blay_paul job to no integrate them in wwwjdic ?

CK CK July 7, 2010, edited October 26, 2019 July 7, 2010 at 5:09:02 PM UTC, edited October 26, 2019 at 3:57:03 AM UTC link Permalink

[not needed - removed by CK]

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blay_paul blay_paul July 7, 2010 July 7, 2010 at 5:48:09 PM UTC link Permalink

I don't think that's a job that can be rushed. A lot of them have translations in third languages or are phrases that it would be useful to keep in a longer sentence.

I expect that sooner or later we'll get a few more moderators and that should speed things up.

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Pharamp Pharamp July 7, 2010 July 7, 2010 at 7:48:37 PM UTC link Permalink

I'm currently working on it :) please check my comments.

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blay_paul blay_paul July 7, 2010 July 7, 2010 at 8:34:15 PM UTC link Permalink

I can't wait to see CK's reaction when he finds there's a moderator even less willing to delete examples than I am! ;-)

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CK CK July 8, 2010, edited October 26, 2019 July 8, 2010 at 1:45:46 AM UTC, edited October 26, 2019 at 3:56:55 AM UTC link Permalink

[not needed - removed by CK]

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blay_paul blay_paul July 8, 2010 July 8, 2010 at 7:15:56 AM UTC link Permalink

I should point out that, despite the joking tone of my post, that Pharamp being less willing to delete examples than me is another way of saying I'm more willing to delete examples than her.

As to the actual situation it was my rough estimate that, in the 2008-10-10 Tanaka Corpus examples I last worked on, around 1 in 30 of the English sentences was wrong. That's about 5,000 sentences.

Rushing through 130* 'delete tagged' sentences will not resolve that situation quickly. In the natural course of Tatoeba there are around 20-30 examples removed (from the Japanese-English pairs used by WWWJDIC) every week. So that makes it about 200 weeks, or about 4 years, until (theoretically) that situation will be resolved. It may be a depressing figure, but remember that it's taken eight years to get the data to this point.

* Probably actually around 70. Deleting sentences does not delete tags.

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CK CK July 8, 2010, edited October 26, 2019 July 8, 2010 at 8:19:18 AM UTC, edited October 26, 2019 at 3:56:43 AM UTC link Permalink

[not needed - removed by CK]

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blay_paul blay_paul July 8, 2010 July 8, 2010 at 9:19:55 AM UTC link Permalink

> which means that I felt that 5 out of 6 were a
> less than natural-sounding or would not be that
> useful for my students to learn.

Which just makes it more obvious that for your purposes the OK list (white listing) is a lot better than the removal of dubious entries (black listing).

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CK CK July 8, 2010, edited October 26, 2019 July 8, 2010 at 3:03:25 PM UTC, edited October 26, 2019 at 3:56:25 AM UTC link Permalink

[not needed - removed by CK]

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blay_paul blay_paul July 8, 2010 July 8, 2010 at 3:37:56 PM UTC link Permalink

You missed out 'American'.

Demetrius Demetrius July 9, 2010 July 9, 2010 at 12:33:35 PM UTC link Permalink

What is a 'useful' sentence? What is an 'everyday' sentence?

If you don't like old sentences, please start with deleting those tagged By-Shakespeare. They are certainly not modern.

Demetrius Demetrius July 8, 2010 July 8, 2010 at 9:20:40 AM UTC link Permalink

> 1. How many of the sentences on any one of these pages
> would you actually use yourself?

IMHO "using yourself" can't always be a criterion.

There are some Russian sentences I wouldn't actually say, but search engine proves someone does use them.

In fact, sometimes I even feel I would never say a sentence added by another contributor. And probably sentences that are OK for me would feel weird for someone else.

I believe we have just to wait until the 'voting' for the sentence is available.

saeb saeb July 8, 2010 July 8, 2010 at 6:32:35 AM UTC link Permalink

my sentiments exactly: http://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/sho...44#message_344

and it's a real hold up when I'm translating because I'll have to pick out 'translatable' sentences first...which takes a while

Pharamp Pharamp July 9, 2010 July 9, 2010 at 3:16:06 PM UTC link Permalink

AHHHHHHH yesterday i thought they were finished!!
but it's only a bug in the first page T__T

so

let's work

again and again

blay_paul blay_paul July 8, 2010 July 8, 2010 at 7:23:23 PM UTC link Permalink

WWWJDIC - Thursday update.

Since last week there have been 35 records deleted and 20 new records.

blay_paul blay_paul July 8, 2010 July 8, 2010 at 11:25:11 AM UTC link Permalink

Re: DELETE THIS: It's correct elsewhere! -- The problem is worthy of being remember.

http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/43683

For future reference it is better _not_ to delete cases like these, but to change it to match the correct version and wait for the duplicate removal script to be run. Deleting it caused the WWWJDIC record to be lost from the export.

Also if you are unlinking English sentences that don't match the Japanese please note so in the comments as I have to fix the index data.

kolibet kolibet July 8, 2010 July 8, 2010 at 11:13:18 AM UTC link Permalink

bonjour - j'apprends le japonais depuis un an, et votre site est une mine de vocabulaire et d'expressions !
mais : récemment, quelque chose a changé - avant, je pouvais choisir un caractère, le copier, et aller chercher son sens dans un dictionnaire en ligne - maintenant, les phrases forment un bloc, dont je ne peux détacher aucun signe. c'est dommage ! est-ce que cela peut être modifié ?
merci en tous cas - ce projet est passionant - hélas, mes compétences sont trop limitées pour participer plus activement...

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sysko sysko July 8, 2010 July 8, 2010 at 11:21:48 AM UTC link Permalink

salut

oui, j'avoue que ce n'est pas pratique, je pense qu'on peut au moins mettre la partie "romanisation" du japonais pas en "bloc", comme cela tu pourras facilement copier/coller des caractères

sinon pour l'instant, la solution temporaire que je vais proposer n'est pas super pratique mais mieux que rien, tu peux cliquer sur la phrase japonaise, cela va t'amener sur la page de cette phrase
et ensuite sur la droite tu auras "historique/log" avec la phrase, et là tu pourras sélectionner comme si c'était du texte normal

sinon tu parles français, donc tu peux toujours ajouter des phrases françaises que tu aimerais savoir comment dire en japonais/autres langues, car maintenant on a ajouter un module pour rechercher par exemple "les phrases françaises pas traduite en japonais". Donc même si tu ne parles qu'une seule langue, tu peux nous aider :), et vu que les gens traduironts tes phrases, tu pourras améliorer ton niveau en langue étrangère en même temps :)

voila

blay_paul blay_paul July 8, 2010 July 8, 2010 at 6:55:13 AM UTC link Permalink

Feature request: Export lists from tags

You can export lists (with IDs) from lists, so how about adding the same ability from tags?

KeEichi KeEichi July 7, 2010 July 7, 2010 at 9:49:04 PM UTC link Permalink

Hi! Newbie here.

I'm wondering, with languages that have feminine and masculine forms (i.e. Arabic), how do you write sentences? Do you put two sentences, one for a masculine speaker, one for a feminine one? And then again, how about if you're talking to a male or female? Or do you post a comment on the Arabic sentence's page saying how you could say it depending on your gender or the listener's gender.

Just wondering what would be more convenient.

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blay_paul blay_paul July 7, 2010 July 7, 2010 at 10:03:07 PM UTC link Permalink

You can write two, or four(!), versions of the sentence if you want but it is not required. If your sentence is gender specific then please add the appropriate tag(s).

male (= spoken by male)
female (= spoken by female)
said to male
said to female

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KeEichi KeEichi July 7, 2010 July 7, 2010 at 10:12:33 PM UTC link Permalink

Aha! Thanks.

Tags seem to only show up on individual sentence pages, right? Like if I'm looking at an English sentence, the only way to know the difference between the different translations would be to click on each individual sentence?

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saeb saeb July 7, 2010 July 7, 2010 at 10:14:50 PM UTC link Permalink

try clicking on the tag ;)

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KeEichi KeEichi July 7, 2010 July 7, 2010 at 10:22:32 PM UTC link Permalink

Now I'm overwhelmed. ^_^
I meant when on an English sentence's page, for example, translated sentences with tags don't show the tag on that page.

It feels like click, back, click, back... to check sentences would be not so nice. Or maybe having the tags next to the translated sentences would be too much clutter on the page?

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saeb saeb July 7, 2010 July 7, 2010 at 11:06:39 PM UTC link Permalink

true, but I can't see how useful for a translated sentence to carry the tags of the original...tags that are linguistic in nature will not always be true for a translated sentence...

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KeEichi KeEichi July 7, 2010 July 7, 2010 at 11:10:55 PM UTC link Permalink

I didn't mean the translated sentences should carry the original's tags. I meant to have translated sentences' tags visible (maybe not all of them), rather than have to go to their respective pages. Maybe some tags could be turned into a small icon, like the male or female tags.

I think tags aren't available for all users now. Is it ok if I write them in the comments on the Arabic sentences' page?

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sysko sysko July 7, 2010 July 7, 2010 at 11:13:26 PM UTC link Permalink

welcome :)
yep sure you can write them in comments, I'm sure saeb will be glad to add them as real tag
in fact for the moment add tags is limitated to member with the status "trusted_user" as the tag feature is a recent feature and still not "complete" yet