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Cabo Cabo February 11, 2021, edited February 11, 2021 February 11, 2021 at 7:37:35 PM UTC, edited February 11, 2021 at 7:48:15 PM UTC link Permalink

Why do we lose potential active users day by day?
Why do we need to tell a new member almost every time that we make sentences and not words, the sentences begins with capital letters (in particular languages) and every sentence has an ending sign?
I can create a new profile less than 10 seconds, then I get no further information about anything.
There's no automatic inner mail saying me 'start reading the quick start guide',but if I'm the chosen one I read the whole quick start guide and use my precious time to understand every single point of it before I start anything. (I'm not the chosen one, here it is when I learned a new thing: https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...omment-1240337 )
Sadly, it's rare. People don't like reading much.
The new members learn the things in the hard way, because they start contribute, on first day they write eg. 100 sentences. They get a dozen of comments, "here is an error", "your translation isn't correct", "it's not a sentence" or even "grammatically correct, but...".
- What do you think they do in the next day when they see all of this?
- Oh, they all will correct the sentences and say thanks.
You guessed ̶r̶i̶g̶h̶t̶. May they correct them, but many of them disappear in the following three days.

I know it's a lot of work, but an interactive guide would make things run smoothly.

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DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez February 11, 2021 February 11, 2021 at 11:54:52 PM UTC link Permalink

I agree with this idea of being more beginner-friendly, at least in terms of showing them the ropes so they get the idea of what we're looking for, so that we're able to retain more users and not discourage a lot of them, and avoid too much damage (mass imports) being done before the user stops.

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CK CK February 12, 2021, edited February 12, 2021 February 12, 2021 at 12:09:08 AM UTC, edited February 12, 2021 at 12:13:22 AM UTC link Permalink

Perhaps, putting links to the Quick Start Guide and the Rules and Guidelines in the top navigation menu under "Contribute" would help beginners notice that we have such pages. Those links would likely be more useful than the current "Improve Sentences" and "Discuss Sentences" links if it were felt that this would put too many items in the menu.

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Thanuir Thanuir February 12, 2021 February 12, 2021 at 10:44:32 AM UTC link Permalink

People don't generally read instructions, so I doubt this would be of great help. Maybe it would help a little.

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AlanF_US AlanF_US February 12, 2021 February 12, 2021 at 9:21:24 PM UTC link Permalink

We used to have links to the various forms of help at the top of the page. Trang changed things so that they were only at the bottom. I believe she had the same reasoning as Thanuir. Perhaps she also wanted us to be more consistent with other sites, where I think it's more common these days for the help to be at the bottom and not the top. On this point, I personally think we have plenty to gain and little to lose by adding a single menu link to a list of help links (Quick Start Guide, wiki, FAQ, etc.). I don't think we need to remove existing links to do that, and in specific, I would be against removing either the "Improve Sentences" or the "Discuss Sentences" link.

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CK CK February 12, 2021, edited February 13, 2021 February 12, 2021 at 11:25:35 PM UTC, edited February 13, 2021 at 4:33:40 AM UTC link Permalink

My thought was that beginners to the site register, then see the "contribute" menu, then see "translate sentences" or "add sentences," and then start contributing. It can be a long time before they even see the link to the Quick Start Guide and perhaps even longer before they notice the Rules and Guidelines. Putting these links near the "add sentences" link would likely help.

Cabo Cabo February 13, 2021, edited February 13, 2021 February 13, 2021 at 8:56:09 AM UTC, edited February 13, 2021 at 9:00:56 AM UTC link Permalink

https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/sh...#message_36542
"Maybe it would help a little."
If there's a chance that helps, I think it's worth to relocate them.
Even better if you put all these (highlighted) links (or firstly just the Quick Start Guide) in a pop-up for newcomers, and put the pop-up's exit sign (simple (small) X without background color) on the left-up corner. (With this solution you probably force them to click to the Quick Start Guide.)

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Thanuir Thanuir February 15, 2021 February 15, 2021 at 8:02:38 AM UTC link Permalink

On the other hand, every annoying pop-up is something that might drive away a user in frustration. So there is a price to pay.

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Cabo Cabo February 15, 2021 February 15, 2021 at 9:54:39 AM UTC link Permalink

On every newspaper site if isn't their own commercial then a "allow cookies" pop-ups always emerge, but people tolerate them to reach information (or disinformation, what has a good title).
I think this website provides more than to drive away you immediately after registration.

And even if that drives away newcomers, what's better, a newcomer who causes you work, what's otherwise could've been avoided or a newcomer who does nothing?

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Thanuir Thanuir February 15, 2021 February 15, 2021 at 10:58:39 AM UTC link Permalink

I might want to be more explicit in that I don't oppose your idea; just notifying that it also has a price (in addition to developer time). Most things are a mix of good and bad, one should see both and weight them.

I don't have particular opinion about what should or should not be done here.

Thanuir Thanuir February 12, 2021 February 12, 2021 at 10:49:57 AM UTC link Permalink

An idea: When first adding or translating a sentence, add a small dialogue box telling:

1. Did you remember capitalization?
2. Did you remember punctuation?
3. If the contribution is a single word only: "Please add sentences rather than single words."

Or something along those lines.
Now, the problem is that number one is not relevant for nearly all languages and number two is also not relevant for some older languages (and maybe some moderns ones, too, who knows), which did not necessarily have any kind of standardized punctuation. So either there would have to be a parenthetical note, (if relevant for your language), or we would have to figure out for all languages whether the notices would be relevant or not.

And this also requires developer time, which is a limited resource and subject to priorization. Maybe, Cabo, you could go ahead and implement this?

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Cabo Cabo February 12, 2021, edited February 12, 2021 February 12, 2021 at 11:54:07 AM UTC, edited February 12, 2021 at 12:03:38 PM UTC link Permalink

"An idea: When first adding or translating a sentence, add a small dialogue box telling:

1. Did you remember capitalization?
2. Did you remember punctuation?
3. If the contribution is a single word only: "Please add sentences rather than single words."

Or something along those lines."
Informations in small portions isn't a bad idea at all.

"Maybe, Cabo, you could go ahead and implement this?"
I'm not a developer, so, these are only ideas.

Now, just a minute ago I moved my cursor over your message's time stamp and just a second later I got more information about it.
If I move my cursor over a flag, it says me "Turkish" or "English", "Indian"... what if the developers add further informations there? "Hungarian - please start with a capital letter and use the following punctuations . ! ? ?! !? ..."

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AlanF_US AlanF_US February 12, 2021 February 12, 2021 at 9:06:24 PM UTC link Permalink

We already have a banner that we display to new users that says:

:::
Welcome to Tatoeba!

To start things off, we encourage you to go to your profile and let us know which languages you speak or are interested in.
:::

It should take no programming effort, just a change to the text, to add an extra line or two:

:::
Make sure that you add sentences, not just words, and that they have the correct punctuation and capitalization. Please read the Quick Start Guide here.
:::

where "Quick Start Guide" would be a link.

I wrote this up as an issue:

https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2624

soliloquist soliloquist February 12, 2021 February 12, 2021 at 1:33:23 PM UTC link Permalink

> but many of them disappear in the following three days.

I agree. I usually try not to write many pedantic comments under new members' sentences to avoid intimidating them.

Another underlying reason of this impermanence, I believe, is the lack of a reward mechanism and gamification which may cause monotony. But of course, it can be argued that they have drawbacks, too. See the discussion on GitHub.

https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2481

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Cabo Cabo February 12, 2021 February 12, 2021 at 5:27:57 PM UTC link Permalink

I think we already have a "badge" system, called stats and graphs.

I quit Tatoeba more than once.
I don't care that I'm the last or the first in anything on those lists, but I can't tell you exactly why I'm still here, I just assume because I do what I want.
On one of my older profile I started translating English sentences, CK noticed and sent me a mail that "here is a list of English sentences translated in xy languages, here is one with audio recordings..." and I did translate many of them and I defined my work valuable by translating as many sentences I can do, but slowly I realised that's not what I want.

Ricardo14 Ricardo14 February 13, 2021 February 13, 2021 at 9:45:44 AM UTC link Permalink

It has been discussed on GitHub

https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2112
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2169
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2279

humilulo humilulo February 15, 2021, edited February 15, 2021 February 15, 2021 at 7:39:14 PM UTC, edited February 15, 2021 at 7:52:15 PM UTC link Permalink

as a new user, i wasted about 15 minutes looking for the Quick Start Guide. i just found it. as frustrated as i am, i clearly understand that *many* people get to where i was and cannot figure anything out and cannot even find the Quick Start Guide to even begin to understand the site.

I looked in all the menus at the top of the site, and i was unable to find any help section whatsoever. I was able to figure out how to add a sentence. but for the life of me, i was not able to figure out how to add a translation to my sentence. I still have not figured it out yet. You ask why users quit. It is because this site is frustrating and very hard to figure out. Tatoeba absolutely needs a quick start guide in the navigation of the website!

Now that i found the Quick Start Guide at the BOTTOM of the webpages, i will be able to read it and probably figure out how to add a second language to my profile or however i can get a few languages added so that i can add translations. But this site is very hard to navigate because everything needs to be in the navigation menus, not at the bottom of a page. honestly, the user-friendliness of the site is very lacking. but this does not mean it's a bad site. i trust i will like the site a lot once i figure out how to use it, with all it's odd idiosyncrasies.

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AlanF_US AlanF_US February 15, 2021, edited February 15, 2021 February 15, 2021 at 10:20:27 PM UTC, edited February 15, 2021 at 10:24:16 PM UTC link Permalink

Thanks for your feedback, humilulo, and for your willingness to give the site a try. It's useful to hear that you expected help links in the navigation menus, not (just) at the bottom of the page. I always thought other users would feel that way.

I submitted the change that I mentioned earlier in the thread, namely modifying the welcome banner to contain a link to the Quick Start Guide. It also tells the user that the QSG is at the bottom of every page on the website. Hopefully, that will help people avoid wasting time looking for it in the future. We can (and undoubtedly will) take more intensive steps to make the site experience better for new users, but this was a quick and easy change to make.

gillux gillux February 16, 2021 February 16, 2021 at 6:09:02 PM UTC link Permalink

humilulo, thank you for bearing with us and welcome to Tatoeba!

neurogeek neurogeek February 21, 2021 February 21, 2021 at 2:43:53 PM UTC link Permalink

New user here. Tatoeba came to my attention because I am using a langue learning tool, Linguno, that links here. I simply clicked around and tried to add a few things.

A user manual would be helpful. I am possibly interested in helping to create one.

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AlanF_US AlanF_US February 21, 2021 February 21, 2021 at 2:50:46 PM UTC link Permalink

neurogeek, welcome to our site! We would be glad to have you contribute to our help documentation, or even just to tell us what you find nonintuitive (which you can do in a private message to gillux). Have you already read the help documents listed at the bottom of the page?

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neurogeek neurogeek February 22, 2021 February 22, 2021 at 6:13:19 PM UTC link Permalink

I didn't notice the help documents! Thanks for pointing them out.