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LicenseCC BY 2.0 FR
This sentence was initially added as a translation of sentence #1954266
added by sacredceltic, November 10, 2012
edited by Pfirsichbaeumchen, November 30, 2019
edited by Pfirsichbaeumchen, November 30, 2019
Duplicates of this sentence have been deleted:
Duplicate of #478907.
Je pense que vous avez supprimé l’espace. Ce n’est pas correct. Par ailleurs cette phrase m’appartient et je ne peux même plus l’éditer pour vérifier. Quel est ce nouveau règlement qui interdit la modification par le propriétaire ?!?
Et en plus cette phrase est en audio. Fusionner 2 phrases disposant d’une audio fait perdre une version audio...
The problem has been discussed before. Several times.
Although we tend to agree that if two sentences containing spaces are identical, we could replace it by the correct one, no consensus has been reached on what to do.
So I wonder why people who has nothing to do with the French corpus comes in and decide that their decision prevails on what French corpus maintainers, admins, and contributors have discussed...
I know you get frustrated by the, oh my god, several hundreds of near duplicates in the French corpus, but it's not yours to decide, so get the hell outta here
Bon mais ça ne répond pas à mon problème : je suis l’auteur et propriétaire de cette phrase qui avait une jolie forme avec son point d’exclamation à distance raisonnable du s final. Mais maintenant, depuis mon iPhone, je vois que mon œuvre est toute moche avec le point d’exclamation tout collé. C’est horrible, on dirait de l’anglais radin de machine à écrire ou d’ordinateur des années 70. Beurk !
Donc je souhaite remettre MA phrase en ordre mais je n’en ai pas le droit !!!!
Au passage, je fais remarquer que si les polices par défaut, employées par Tatoeba, respectaient toutes les langues, dont le français, en affichant correctement les espaces insécables, le problème n’existerait pas...
This is what it looks like to me: https://imgur.com/a/iHJ1bRJ.
I didn’t think that people would be offended, even so much as to tell me to get lost. Please do accept my sincerest apology. I will restore a full space to your sentence. I hope the matter will be all right then.
In the article https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/E...ins%C3%A9cable it says that according to the French typographical code one should use a narrow no-break space before semicolons, question marks, and exclamation marks, but a full no-break space before colons and between guillemets and the text that they enclose. Is that not correct?
If the picture above was what you were seeing after you changed MY space by a narrow non breakable space, it’s because you use a non-standard typeface on whatever your Browser is, that overrules Tatoeba’s default.
In reality, the DEFAULT typeface used by Tatoeba shows them as non existant and this was done on purpose to “americanise” the view of all sentences. I think CK managed to impose this as he imposes a lot of his HTML standards to eradicate whatever doesn’t look like what he favours, under the guise of being helpful to the community...
And I definitely do NOT authorise ANY Admin to alter my sentences, whether the are French sentences or in any other language, because there is also a hot debate on this in English but also in German (YES ! Modern German, as defined by the Grimms brothers, includes thin spaces before double dots ! as I proved in another thread, showing a picture of an original Grimm’s grammar and also a picture of an original edition of Dickens...YEAH !!!) and many other languages. The eradication of spaces is a recent phenomenon that followed the introduction of keyboards in typewriters then on early computers when typists were paid by the key. Since the introduction of word-processors that autotype spaces, these technologies and stingy typographical bad practices are now outdated so let’s switch back to former standards of readability !
Tatoeba does not do anything special to "americanise" the font used for displaying sentences. It requests that the browser use either Google's "Noto Sans" (which has a proper narrow no-break space) or alternatively use any other sans-serif font.
This means that the problem is with your iPhone not having a sans-serif font that can correctly display the narrow no-break space. Apparently only the serif "Times New Roman" supports it on Apple devices; at least that was the case in 2015: https://www.mobileread.com/foru...d.php?t=260898
Yes, it was what I saw after I changed it to a narrow non-breakable space. It is what a narrow non-breakable space looks like to me. I’m not sure why it looks different for you. I do not think I have a personal style installed. I checked on Google Chrome as well.
There were three versions of this sentence: one without a space, one with a normal space, one with a narrow non-breakable space in front of the exclamation mark. Since the French typographical code recommends a narrow non-breakable space in this case, I did not expect an argument, nor that it would look ugly for some. I again apologise, and I will just stay away from it in the future.
My iPhone is the same iPhone as anybody else . That means that all Apple customers (errr...that’s a big chunk of the smartphone and tablets...) can’t see non breakable spaces on Tatoeba although they can see them on other websites. Thus the problem is with Tatoeba and the typefaces options it retained in its CSS...
Isn’t Tatoeba designed to be used from any device ?
Could you point me to some other website that uses narrow no-break spaces and displays them correctly on your iPhone? I'll have a look at their CSS and try to figure out what Tatoeba should do differently.
The thin and normal non breakable spaces are even colored so as to be clearly visible.
Thank you for the test case. The only platform-specific parts I noticed were a few Linux fonts. For comparison, here's what that example text looks like on my Linux device which has those fonts installed https://i.imgur.com/CT8KsVL.png and on my Android device which does not https://i.imgur.com/7jllPix.png
I'm assuming your iPhone doesn't have any Linux-specific fonts, so my current best guess is that using a font with serifs for the body text makes all the difference. Does the narrow no-break space in the (sans-serif) headline show up for you? A screenshot would help figure out where the difference is.
Yes they all show on my iPhone the way as on your devices. I can’t see differences...
The narrow in the headline looks thiner than on yours. Almost invisible, indeed
But the other blue ones look larger. Just fine. Like the one separating the digits in 10000...
So you’re certainly right : the serif makes the difference...
Up to you now !
And please never let a guy from the US define CSS standards for the rest of the world anymore...
Almost 90% of US websites I see in their French versions are wrongly internationalised. Internationalisation is a non-issue in most of the USA.
Europeans are much more aware of these issues.
And please let me know when the site is updated appropriately. I will test it...
The narrow non-break space inserted by @Pfirsichbaeumchen was actually displaying for me on my very standard iPhone... it's just that the iPhone's narrow spaces end up looking *really* narrow.
See this example text I've just added to the bottom of my Tatoeba profile, as it is shown on my iPhone: https://i.imgur.com/JEh7Uh0.png
You can see that the spacing of the narrow non-break space is about half of the spacing of the regular space character, which by itself should be correct.
However, there is also some space present when no space character is used. I suspect what's happening is that the iPhone is applying kerning, making the difference between narrow non-break space and no space less obvious.
If and only if I can actually SEE thin non breakable spaces on Tatoeba sentences from any of my devices and browsers, I will first drink a glass of Champagne to celebrate the solution to a decade-long annoying issue, and subsequently start to systematically use them if I can, although it’s very difficult, with current iOS to produce these non breakable spaces since there are no such keys combinations available in the keyboard layouts. But that’s an APPLE misdeed. APPLE is also terrible with internationalisation ( and still refuses to offer an esperanto keyboard)
I will also then authorise the application of a mass procedure to update all my sentences (French and non French) to replace normal spaces in front of !?...
I’m available to test the procedure.
En effet, ces espaces sont beaucoup trop fins pour être visibles et donc lisibles, ce qui est l’objet de leur existence. Par conséquent une telle présentation n’est pas acceptable. C’est pourquoi il convient de trouver, pour les appareils APPLE et singulièrement iOS, un moyen de les agrandir en appliquant les éléments de CSS qui conviennent. C’est ce que je réclame à cor et à cris depuis des années, sans trouver d’écho.
Yorwba semble être le 1er à être sur la bonne piste, je croise les doigts et j’attends de voir...
Mais donc le problème des doublons est complètement lié à la résolution de ce problème d’affichage.
I have created a GitHub issue regarding the font issue and added some explanations as well:
Please if you need to carry on the discussion on this topic, use the GitHub thread instead. Let's keep the comments here for the sentence itself.
Yes Apple is terrible with internationalization. I never contribute any sentence having a punctuation needing space when I'm on a Mac (Apple is evil, shhhh)
@Pfirsichbaeumchen my words were quite rough,I apologize to you, I was in a bad mood. However what you linked about spacing is far from being correct. First of all, there is no such thing as "French typographical code" except what some people try to force on others (a little bit like on Tatoeba :) ). In the edition world, for example, there are certainly recommendations that people follow but if spaces were printed with a slightly different spacing, in many cases, nobody would care. It would be your editing style.
Now for the "French" part of the thing, that is ridiculous as I wrote SO many times on these website. See for example http://bdl.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/bdl/...dl.asp?id=2039
So now, imagine that people that don't know things about German come to your corpus, and leave comments on many sentences having good punctuation, adding @change on each one of them, or that they modify sentences directly without asking confirmation to the author or to you... I don't know about you, but I might slightly overreact if I'm not in the good mood.