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Worth a bump !

added by sacredceltic, August 24, 2015

linked by deniko, 10 days ago

linked by soliloquist, 10 days ago

linked by soliloquist, 10 days ago

#9818613

linked by Ricardo14, 2 days ago

#9818613

unlinked by Tepan, yesterday

Worth a bump!

edited by Tepan, yesterday

Worth a bump !

edited by sacredceltic, yesterday

Worth a bump !

deleted by Tepan, yesterday

unlinked by Tepan, yesterday

unlinked by Tepan, yesterday

unlinked by Tepan, yesterday

Sentence #4470815

There is no sentence with id 4470815

Comments

MarijnKp MarijnKp 12 days ago February 21, 2021 at 7:06:41 PM UTC link Permalink

Without the space before the exclamation mark.

sacredceltic sacredceltic 12 days ago February 21, 2021 at 9:26:19 PM UTC link Permalink

No

DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez 12 days ago, edited 11 days ago February 21, 2021 at 10:36:05 PM UTC, edited February 22, 2021 at 8:05:38 AM UTC link Permalink

https://english.stackexchange.c...is%20a%20dash.

"Is it ever correct to have a space before a question or exclamation mark?"

"In English, it is always an error. There should be no space between a sentence and its ending punctuation, whether that's a period, a question mark, or an exclamation mark. There should also be no space before a colon, semicolon, or comma. The only ending punctuation mark that sometimes needs to be preceded by a space is a dash.

I see this error most often with people who never really learned to type."

MarijnKp MarijnKp 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 6:16:24 AM UTC link Permalink

@sacredceltic
At least tell me why you think you're right. I see that you've got many English sentences with space at the end before an exclamation or question mark and as far as I know, it's wrong.

Tepan Tepan 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 8:01:08 AM UTC link Permalink

https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...how/guidelines

Use correct capitalization and punctuation.
Sentences should be written in the normal way that an educated native speaker would write them.

-> Please remove the space before the exclamation mark.

sacredceltic sacredceltic 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 9:19:57 AM UTC link Permalink

>as far as I know, it's wrong.

please define "wrong"

sacredceltic sacredceltic 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 9:24:43 AM UTC link Permalink

>Use correct capitalization and punctuation.

define correct.
Charles Dickens thought it was correct. I own original editions from him and the spaces were there. As well as in the first Grimm's brothers German Grammar. Grimm Brothers are considered the founders of modern German...

I had this debate here about 100 times. I showed evidence each time and I won.

The absence of spaces dates back to the time of typewriters, because stingy bosses didn't want to pay for spaces and later on because early computers were limited in memory. It made English more difficult to read.
Nowadays, typewriters are obsolete and computer memories are infinite.
Back to sense !

helloroto helloroto 11 days ago, edited 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 9:51:21 AM UTC, edited February 22, 2021 at 10:00:16 AM UTC link Permalink

The rules say

>Sentences should be written in the normal way that an educated native speaker would write them.

not

>Sentences should be written in the normal way that an educated native speaker from the 1800s would have written them.

The rules also say

>Do not intentionally add bad or confusing sentences in order to make a point.

Which is obviously what this is if you've had the argument 100 times with native speakers none of whom use a space before an exclamation mark.

Also, if this supposed to be bump as one writes it on an internet forum "this thread/post is worth a bump!" then the archaic argument holds even less because Dickens would never have written that.
https://books.google.com/ngrams...20bump%3B%2Cc0

Tepan Tepan 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 10:08:58 AM UTC link Permalink

https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/2680278

Tepan Tepan 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 10:16:37 AM UTC link Permalink

There are already many sentences with a space before "?" or "!" here on Tatoeba:
https://tatoeba.org/eng/tags/sh...with_tag/11726

It would be great if we could correct that before we get massively trolled by copycats.

sacredceltic sacredceltic 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 10:30:04 AM UTC link Permalink

These are not duplicates. It’s an alternate punctuation. It’s actually used in English at present in different regions of the world. (Mauritius, parts of India,...) English has no higher authority to define punctuation and English was offered as a gift to the world by British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, so the the world may use it as they wish.

sacredceltic sacredceltic 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 10:48:04 AM UTC link Permalink

@helloroto

It’s nothing to do with making a point. These spaces before double-points disappeared in recent times, at the scale of language history ( modern English or German date back to early 20th century when typewriters didn’t even exist) and for reasons that were bad and that are now completely obsolete. Their absence actually impairs readability and I could produce thousands of live examples on television where people actually misread sentences as assertions when they are questions or forget to use the right tone to express an exclamation. This is caused by the absence of space which helps to pre-analyse the proper tone to employ, or -even better- a sign at the start of the sentence as do the Spaniards (¡they’re the cleverest on this !)
If your argument is that Tatoeba should reflect the language as it shows itself nowadays and as it is written by contemporary educated natives, then it should also include emoticons and various texting abbreviations. I challenge you to define language this way !
If Dickens and the Grimm brothers didn’t use - and even define - modern English or German, then noone knows what the modern versions of these languages are.

morbrorper morbrorper 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 10:48:18 AM UTC link Permalink

Alternate punctuation does not work well with Tatoeba, since even slight variations in the types of white space used (breaking or non-breaking) are effectively treated as distinct sentences, that all have to be treated individually when it comes to linking translations.

sacredceltic sacredceltic 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 10:52:06 AM UTC link Permalink

@morborper

And so what ? What is this pathological obsession with having a single version of each sentence on Tatoeba ? Is the Cloud lacking space or what ?

ZegPhig ZegPhig 11 days ago, edited 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 10:57:39 AM UTC, edited February 22, 2021 at 11:05:15 AM UTC link Permalink

Multaj naturaj lingvoj havas regulojn. Tiuj reguloj ŝanĝas kun tempo. Reguloj povas arkaikiĝi. Kaj tio estas normala por naturaj lingvoj. Mi estas el rusio. Moderna literatura rusa lingvo formiĝis preskaŭ pro unu ĥomo. Tio estas Aleksandro Puŝkino. Sed multaj reguloj post lia morto ŝanĝis, malgraŭ lia genieco. Kaj se mi nun skribos ion kun malnova dismeto de interpunkciaj signoj, ajna portanto de mia lingvo diros al mi, ke mi erare skribas. La reguloj arkaikiĝas, ŝatas tio al ni aŭ ne. Kaj ni vivante en socio devas akcepti almenaŭ kelkajn ĝiajn regulojn. Kaj reguloj de lingvo estas unu el ĝi. Ni nepre devas akcepti ĝin. Se ĉiu ŝanĝus sian lingvon, tiam lingvo ne havus sencon, ja unu ne povus kompreni alian. Lingvo, kiun uzas neniu krome vi ne estas sensenca nur se vi volas amuziĝi. La nova reguloj en lingvo akceptas nur tiam, kiam plimulto de portantoj de lingvo pretas akcepti ĝin kaj ili volas tion. En reguloj de lingvoj laboras principon de plimelto. Kaj volas vi aŭ ne, sed vi bezonas konsenti kun tio. Vi bezonas konsenti kun reguloj, kiujn uzas plimulto.
Mi konsentis kun vi pri Esperanto, sed nur ĉar Zamenĥofo kun aliaj Esperantistoj en dudeka jarcento akceptis tian regulon.

Tepan Tepan 11 days ago, edited 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 10:58:58 AM UTC, edited February 22, 2021 at 11:00:21 AM UTC link Permalink

@admin @admins @tatoebadmins

> And so what ? What is this pathological obsession with having a single version of each sentence on Tatoeba ? Is the Cloud lacking space or what ?

I'm referring to his "pathological".

sacredceltic sacredceltic 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 11:06:48 AM UTC link Permalink

@ZegPhig
Sed pri la punktuado, la angla ne havas universalajn regulojn. la angla estas tre diversa kaj sia uzado ŝanĝas laŭ regionoj aŭ epokoj...

helloroto helloroto 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 11:13:15 AM UTC link Permalink

I think this is a pretty clear example of when to apply

>Use language that most native speakers consider correct. If 80% of native speakers think a particular usage is wrong, don't use it, even if some people say that it is correct.

from https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...how/non-native

sacredceltic sacredceltic 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 11:19:00 AM UTC link Permalink

@hellroto

In the case of English, this doesn’t work because what majority do you use ? Of Australians ? Indians ? USians ? Canadians ? Scotts ? Irish ? South-Africans ? Mauritians ?
They don’t have the same norms and some don’t even have norms at all although English is their official language.
Canada has a language Authority that regulates the usage of both English and French and it actually enforces rules that are not the “norm” in the UK or in the USA...

morbrorper morbrorper 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 11:19:04 AM UTC link Permalink

I wrote
> ... that all have to be treated individually when it comes to linking translations.

That is, in my opinion, a strong argument for limiting the number of near-duplicates.

For an example see these sentences:

#6026370
#8010496
#521386

Frankly, I cannot see the value in having three virtually identical versions of the same sentence, each having a different set of linked translations.

shekitten shekitten 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 11:27:36 AM UTC link Permalink

> In the case of English, this doesn’t work because what majority do you use ? Of Australians ? Indians ? USians ? Canadians ? Scotts ? Irish ? South-Africans ? Mauritians ?

Of the groups you mentioned, which majority considers a space before a punctuation mark to be correct?

helloroto helloroto 11 days ago, edited 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 11:29:52 AM UTC, edited February 22, 2021 at 11:34:26 AM UTC link Permalink

@shekitten

That's what I was wondering. For the ones I'm less familiar with such as Indian and Mauritian, the first instances I found an exclamation mark didn't have a space.

https://www.indiatoday.in/educa...968-2016-02-22
http://www.mauritiustimes.com/m...-go-scot-free/

Moreover I have to swallow my pride with British English rules on quotes and punctuation within quotes to meet Tatoeba's standards, so I wouldn't consider this any different.

sacredceltic sacredceltic 11 days ago, edited 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 11:31:12 AM UTC, edited February 22, 2021 at 11:32:57 AM UTC link Permalink

@morbrorper

The example you show is a different issue : these spaces have a different nature (= they don’t have the same ISO-codes)
This is due to the mismanagement of French thin spaces by various sites (including Tatoeba) and computer providers.
The solution that I promote is simple : Tatoeba simple code should pre-analise the sentence before insertion and substitute the correct thin space when applicable, but it should also make it visible on its CSS on the different user devices and browsers, which was not always the case on Tatoeba.
When I realised I couldn’t see thin spaces in my sentences on my iPhone, I stopped using them and so do lots of French contributors because they legitimately want to see what they actually type.

shekitten shekitten 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 11:32:43 AM UTC link Permalink

@helloroto The India Times certainly doesn't. https://www.indiatimes.com/ I can't remember seeing anything that used such punctuation when I was there, either.

sacredceltic sacredceltic 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 11:36:42 AM UTC link Permalink

@ shekitten

Please dig into the former debates on this subject, multiple such examples were already provided, including ftom recent newspapers in India. I’m exhausted with having to defend this all the time.
English and typewrting rules are extremely diverse and it’s not because you’ve never seen something that it doesn’t exist. Maybe it’s just because you haven’t seen it all yet...

sacredceltic sacredceltic 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 11:40:22 AM UTC link Permalink

https://tatoeba.org/fra/sentences/show/1009993

sacredceltic sacredceltic 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 11:42:51 AM UTC link Permalink

https://tatoeba.org/fra/sentences/show/2024265

Tepan Tepan 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 11:54:14 AM UTC link Permalink

@admin @admins @tatoebadmins
Please block this troll.

helloroto helloroto 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 12:08:02 PM UTC link Permalink

Perhaps this sentence should just have the same tags as #4603399 so that we can all move on with our lives. Although it is perhaps noteworthy that the 'non-standard punctuation' tag is mostly just a collection of OP's sentences.

deniko deniko 11 days ago, edited 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 12:10:37 PM UTC, edited February 22, 2021 at 12:10:47 PM UTC link Permalink

I have this bookmarked from one of the previous discussions with sacredceltic on this topic, and there were plenty.

https://books.google.fr/books?i...ickens&f=false

Charles Dickens, or maybe his publishers, did seem to use a space before "!", "?" and ";". That practice seems to have grown out of style by now.

Tepan Tepan 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 3:03:17 PM UTC link Permalink

Don't get distracted by Charles Dickens. That is irrelevant to our guidelines:

"Use correct capitalization and punctuation.
Sentences should be written in the normal way that an educated native speaker would write them."

(Sorry for repeating myself.)

deniko deniko 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 3:04:27 PM UTC link Permalink

> Sentences should be written in the normal way that an educated native speaker would write them

I'm sure Charles Dickens was an educated native speaker though.

shekitten shekitten 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 3:21:30 PM UTC link Permalink

He also died in 1870.

sacredceltic sacredceltic 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 3:24:16 PM UTC link Permalink

@Cabo
“ correct it instead of resist everybody and make duplicates.”

I don’t think we should debate the space types applied in French in this thread here because it’s entirely a different issue.
French, unlike English, has precise typographical norms defined by higher language authorities.
The problem of French thin spaces is not MY problem. It’s a devices’, browsers’ and websites issue, because many don’t apply these norms correctly.
So I’m not the only French language contributor on Tatoeba who has created sentences with different types of spaces over time, devices and browsers. I never did it willingly. Sometimes I happened to have created 2 same translations with different spaces at different times without knowing it ( I’ve been translating for over 10 years now on Tatoeba and I own 130K€ sentences: it’s just impossible for me to remember that I already translated a sentence...)
There are thousands of these near-duplicates, from me and from numerous others. As I stated repeatedly, the solution lies in coding and automating the substitution.

Tepan Tepan 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 3:24:45 PM UTC link Permalink

@deniko
So you think that the guidelines refer to usages from past educated native speakers, too, even though the wording is *the normal way that an educated native speaker would write* and not *one of the countless ways that educated native speakers of the present or the past would have written them*?

*the normal way* suggests that there should be only one way.
*would write* excludes dead people in this case. (Because it's not about "what would Jesus do" or "Confucius says".)

sacredceltic sacredceltic 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 3:34:40 PM UTC link Permalink

@shekitten

Dickens died in 1870 but was writing in modern English as you’re doing now. He actually contributed to founding it, being one of English most read and taught at schools author.
What is this new language that Dickens wouldn’t be a writer of ? Please define it precisely, while avoiding vague words such as “normal”, “contemporary “, “educated” . ...and taking all responsibilities for your definition’s consequences.

soliloquist soliloquist 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 3:39:02 PM UTC link Permalink

#9780059

DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez 11 days ago, edited 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 3:52:02 PM UTC, edited February 22, 2021 at 3:52:53 PM UTC link Permalink

>English was offered as a gift to the world by British Prime Minister Gordon Brown
Nice, validating imperialism and colonialism, definitely promoting cultural equality


>If your argument is that Tatoeba should reflect the language as it shows itself nowadays and as it is written by contemporary educated natives, then it should also include emoticons and various texting abbreviations.
That matches "native speakers", but not really "educated native speakers" in a non-casual setting. For example, native English speakers write with words such as "wanna" and "There's" (for plural words, ie "There's people that..."), but because they're not considered correct, they're frowned upon here. While it's arguable to start phasing them in, the space before punctuation doesn't count here, because as helloroto referenced:

Use language that most native speakers consider correct. If 80% of native speakers think a particular usage is wrong, don't use it, even if some people say that it is correct.

As far as I know, at least 80% of native speakers don't use spaces before punctuation. That alone should be reason to just change it and move on.


>Dickens died in 1870 but was writing in modern English as you’re doing now.
There's still differences between 19th century English and 21st century English. Languages evolve all the time. This is an example of that.


>I'm sure Charles Dickens was an educated native speaker though.
He sure was, but that doesn't mean his English is considered contemporary now.

deniko deniko 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 5:11:16 PM UTC link Permalink

> He sure was, but that doesn't mean his English is considered contemporary now.

There's no requirement to strictly stick to the contemporary English. We have sentences here that can be considered archaic, we have Bible quotes here - nobody speaks like that anymore.

Yes, this sentence in particular is funny because it combines archaic punctuation and modern slang, but it doesn't necessarily make it wrong. It's also a style.

DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 5:27:09 PM UTC link Permalink

@sacredceltic It's not up to you to single-handedly reform the English language to your standards. If you can get 80% of native speakers to support you, then for the purposes of Tatoeba that will be considered standard. Until then, stop constantly trying to pick a fight.

DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 5:29:41 PM UTC link Permalink

And besides, what does this sentence even mean?

helloroto helloroto 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 5:41:41 PM UTC link Permalink

>And besides, what does this sentence even mean?

I think it's like when someone posts on a forum, and someone else finds it low down on the list of posts, and either thinks it's important or relevant, so they might bring it up to the top of the list by replying 'Worth a bump!' to the post. Arguably it's not a complete sentence because it only has a predicate and no subject, but it does have an implied subject. '(This post is) worth a bump!'

https://www.lexico.com/definition/bump

DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 5:43:10 PM UTC link Permalink

Ok, thanks for clarifying
I've seen "bump" in this context a few times, but not this sentence

DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 6:45:27 PM UTC link Permalink

Ok, here

https://hinative.com/en-US/questions/18419545
https://hinative.com/en-US/questions/18419517

I asked natives what they thought, that way we have several perspectives
3 answers so far, one in favor, one against, and one somewhat neutral

helloroto helloroto 11 days ago, edited 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 6:59:22 PM UTC, edited February 22, 2021 at 8:29:17 PM UTC link Permalink

>Ignoring current grammar conventions, does adding a space before punctuation marks (ie. !, ?) make the sentence easier to read?

I don't think the question is relevant because if one were to start from scratch with English orthography, then it would look absolutely nothing like it does. English 'rules' come from convention, and this sentence goes against convention.

Anyway, this has been argued to death and now it has a reasonable tag that we can hope people programming avoid. I have submitted a similar sentence with normal punctuation #9794985

sacredceltic sacredceltic 11 days ago, edited 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 8:50:39 PM UTC, edited February 22, 2021 at 8:51:09 PM UTC link Permalink

@DJ-Saidez

“ And besides, what does this sentence even mean?”

So you pretend to be an advanced contributor of English language from the USA and you don’t even understand your own language ?!?
I’m just baffled !

sacredceltic sacredceltic 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 8:53:12 PM UTC link Permalink

“ I asked natives what they thought, that way we have several perspectives
3 answers so far, one in favor, one against, and one somewhat neutral”

3 answers from people as ignorant of your own language as you are ? What’s the point of such polls ?!?

Tepan Tepan 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 8:56:47 PM UTC link Permalink

@tatoebaadmins

> 3 answers from people as ignorant of your own language as you are ? What’s the point of such polls ?!?

DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 9:16:04 PM UTC link Permalink

>So you pretend to be an advanced contributor of English language from the USA and you don’t even understand your own language ?!?

English isn't my mother language, and I'm way younger than you are. However it's the best language I have. I'm an advanced Tatoeba contributor, and I'm working together with native speakers to make sure my sentences are fine. Emphasis on *working together*.

Remember you learned BBC English. While the dialects of English aren't extremely distinct from each other, they do have their differences that outsiders can't catch that easily. And your sentence was lacking context.

> What’s the point of such polls ?!?
Umm, to ask natives. To see what a random sample from the English-speaking population thinks. Thought that was obvious.

sacredceltic sacredceltic 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 9:31:33 PM UTC link Permalink

“ English isn't my mother language”

So your profile is not only misleading but it’s actually a complete lie !

DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez 11 days ago, edited 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 9:57:31 PM UTC, edited February 22, 2021 at 10:00:27 PM UTC link Permalink

...😑

My Spanish is worse than my English, and several trusted natives told me to keep my English at 5 stars.

Also stop making every sentence exclamatory to mark a point  !

"English isn't my mother language...However it's the best language I have."
I go to school, think, and live my life in English, in an English-dominant country. I still make mistakes, as most natives do, and am always learning. If you actually read my profile, you'd see it says I don't claim to know everything. However you say that your opinion matters more than the majority of native speakers.

You switched rapidly to an ad hominem by making it about me, so I think it's only fair that I reciprocate that.
I think it's very egocentric of you to think that just because something is easier for you, that everyone else must do it too. Most of us grew up with the way it is now, and we don't have a problem with it. If you were to turn in a paper to a university professor with that sort of punctuation, you'd probably get marked for it, or at least draw their attention in a negative way.
On a similar point about languages evolving: in the past, I would've probably written "his/her" instead of "their" just now, but English has evolved to fit the times. The same happened with the punctuation marks. Yes, their origin might've had a greedy origin, but it's assimilated into English to the point that it's now standard. I'm sorry that you had a different experience learning English than 90% of English speakers, but you can't possibly think that yours is more valid than theirs to the point of overruling them.

MarijnKp MarijnKp 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 10:07:19 PM UTC link Permalink

C'mon, it's a bit childish to call it a complete lie.

Got the same situation as DJ_Saidez. Dutch and Gronings aren't my mother tongues. Icelandic is, a language I'm barely able to speak. By this, he's also just showing what his strongest language is, so first language would be a better name for it.

However, there's one thing I don't understand. I also see many of your sentences without a space before the exclamation or question mark. Wouldn't you agree that it just looks messy and that it's better to just stick to one. So, the most used way....
This would prevent so much future discussions and confusion

DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 10:17:02 PM UTC link Permalink

I'm sorry for contributing to this mess. I just get emotional sometimes.

I've made my points.

sacredceltic sacredceltic 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 11:30:11 PM UTC link Permalink

@cabo

No. Just stop harassing me...

sacredceltic sacredceltic 11 days ago, edited 11 days ago February 22, 2021 at 11:34:17 PM UTC, edited February 22, 2021 at 11:34:57 PM UTC link Permalink

@admin

I was once reprimanded for not using tags in English and now I see tags applied to my sentences in other languages. Does that apply only to my sentences or did the tags’ rules changed and I am not aware of it ?
You look elsewhere and punctuation rules might as well evolve, who knows ?

Tepan Tepan 10 days ago February 23, 2021 at 6:40:26 AM UTC link Permalink

@tatoebaadmins

> So your profile is not only misleading but it’s actually a complete lie !

> No. Just stop harassing me...

mramosch mramosch 3 days ago March 3, 2021 at 12:05:30 AM UTC link Permalink

Same ol’, same ol’ ...

... with everybody’s darling @psychedelic, who has read a book or two in a none-native language. Well ...

1. Despite your showing off of your Spanish skills I haven’t ever seen a Spanish sentence with ¡! or ¿? that had a space before the trailing ! or ? like your example above. You can’t just randomly impose your favorite rules upon any language to your personal liking just to prove a point, that‘s unprofessional.

And no, Germans just simply don’t do this either. 200 years have passed since the Grimm‘s and we don’t even speak like Göthe or Schiller anymore, just get over it!

2. You are beyond any doubt not nearly as fluent and “native’ in English as Miles is and many others here are, and still you keep on getting on everybody’s nerves for the better part of the last ten years. I can also be a bit of a PITA when it comes to certain discussions in relation to my none-native languages but you really take the cake, to the point where it’s getting annoying.

Phrases like

• ... or did the tags’ rules changed ...

from one of your insults above maybe should make you reconsider blowing your own trumpet so shamelessly. And even if it only was a typo, your dubious self-proclaimed reputation can’t afford such mistakes when pretending such a high level of knowledge and expertise. As the Germans say: “Man soll nicht mit Steinen werfen, wenn man im Glashaus sitzt.”

3. You are not even consistent in your own native language, where rules of punctuation and spacing are - so you say - mandatory. When looking up your Tatoeba contributions there are French sentences (with ‘!’ or ‘?’) with and without separating spaces, so, what’s it gonna be? You can’t have it both ways. At least there still were about a year ago after one of your mentioned 100 times you were polluting a thread with your unhealthy stubbornness. But frankly I don’t bother dealing with your BS superiority complex-ridden behavior anymore. Why just don’t you call it a day and delight us with your absence ...

And please don’t bother to waste your time running riot with elaborate drivel, I won’t read it, I promise, not even a short one ;-)



sacredceltic sacredceltic 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 8:54:36 AM UTC link Permalink

@mramosch

Obviously you can't read properly and read this thread completely superficially.
Among other misreadings, you missed the reasons why there are different types of spaces in French sentences, which I explained, and NO, they're not missing (unless by accident), but they're sometimes smaller, depending on which device they were created and at what time.
And you also misread my profile, because I'm NOT pretending to be fluent in any language but French. it is clear to see on my profile, unlike on yours.
But the fluency in one language has nothing to do with knowing about language history and its typographic rules. And I certainly know much more than you do on this subject. You're just stuck in your immediate certitudes.
And you also misread my remark about Spanish typography.
Rules evolve, all the time, and they will continue to do so, especially when old rules are inefficient and were created for ridiculous and obsolete reasons.

helloroto helloroto 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 9:14:26 AM UTC link Permalink

>Rules evolve, all the time, and they will continue to do so

I think you just showed why basing your argument on an author from 200 years ago is baseless... If you look at modern reprints of old works (including Dickens), you'll see that they do not have spaces before exclamation/question marks.

sacredceltic sacredceltic 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 10:31:29 AM UTC, edited March 3, 2021 at 2:57:10 PM UTC link Permalink

@helloroto

Precisely, it's proof that practices evolve, and they might continue to do so, since they're not carved into stone.

And again, 200 years ago was when modern English or German were invented. You're still speaking the same language.

sacredceltic sacredceltic 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 2:59:13 PM UTC link Permalink

Hey Tepan, so you removed your non-English tag ;-)
A pity, I agree, but that’s how cruel things are on Tatoeba 🤷‍♂️

sacredceltic sacredceltic 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 3:01:21 PM UTC link Permalink

By the way, I also dispute the remaining tag, even in English 😳
Because « non-standard » implies there is some kind of standard that is not respected. Could you please provide its ISO reference ?
Thanks

Tepan Tepan 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 3:02:56 PM UTC link Permalink

It's "non-standard punctuation" now. And it is a pity, indeed. I agree. But I don't expect you to understand that.

sacredceltic sacredceltic 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 3:04:55 PM UTC link Permalink

But according to what “standard” is the question...

helloroto helloroto 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 3:21:23 PM UTC link Permalink

>But according to what “standard” is the question...

Standard: 'A form of language that is widely accepted as the usual form.'*

And the people who 'widely accept' no space before an exclamation mark is basically every English speaker alive today except you (and possibly other native French speakers who can also speak English).

If you're looking for a style guide for English then here are a few you might like to consult:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsstyle...on#punctuation
https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites...ish_dgt_en.pdf
https://www.ox.ac.uk/sites/file...le%20Guide.pdf

The one from the European Commission is aimed towards non-native speakers like you and specifically mentions punctuation spacing in English: 'punctuation marks in English are always – apart from dashes (see 2.16) and ellipsis points (see 2.3) – closed up to the preceding word, letter or number'.

I should note that whilst the above style guides are mainly British oriented (I couldn't find any American ones available for free online), the rules about question/exclamation mark spacing are universal.

*definition 2.2 from https://www.lexico.com/definition/standard

sacredceltic sacredceltic 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 3:22:38 PM UTC link Permalink

If you’re unable to provide an international standard reference, then you acknowledge there is no such international standard...
Consequently, which NATIONAL standard (because THOSE do exist, as in Canada, which I mentioned earlier...) should apply to English language on Tatoeba.
Please do tell me, I’m extatic.

sacredceltic sacredceltic 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 3:28:57 PM UTC link Permalink

@helloroto

Then you admit it’s not defined by a “standard”, but by “guides”. Do you have any idea of how many of these contradictory local guides do exist across the world ?
Citing the brexited-EU guide as a reference for punctuation in English almost made me die with laughter. Thank you for that 👍

@Tepan

Could you please change your tag to “unidentified style-guide punctuation”, because according to Helloroto, it’s nothing to do with a standard but with EU-guide..

helloroto helloroto 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 3:30:07 PM UTC link Permalink

>If you’re unable to provide an international standard reference, then you acknowledge there is no such international standard...

'Standard' <> ISO standard

>Consequently, which NATIONAL standard (because THOSE do exist, as in Canada, which I mentioned earlier...) should apply to English language on Tatoeba.
Please do tell me, I’m extatic.

All dialects are acceptable on Tatoeba as far as I'm aware. I use British spelling here on Tatoeba, but contribute with American standards on quotation marks as per the rules.

However, the rules on spacing are universal. One only has to glance at any publication from the countries you mentioned to see that's the case. Here are some Canadian question marks I found in a few seconds:
https://www.thestar.com/news/gt...d-poverty.html
https://montreal.ca/en/articles...pal-court-4631
https://nationalpost.com/news/w...erent-approach

sacredceltic sacredceltic 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 3:33:46 PM UTC link Permalink

@Hellrotto

> One only has to glance at any publication from the countries you mentioned to see that's the case

I already proved you wrong on this.

Tepan Tepan 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 3:39:39 PM UTC link Permalink

> Could you please change your tag to “unidentified style-guide punctuation”, because according to Helloroto, it’s nothing to do with a standard but with EU-guide..

I'm afraid, you'll have to ask an admin to help you.

DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 5:18:02 PM UTC, edited March 3, 2021 at 8:36:11 PM UTC link Permalink

I added the tag
I'll do with it what Tepan, or an admin, tells me to do with it

PaulP PaulP 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 7:22:33 PM UTC link Permalink

> The rules say

>Sentences should be written in the normal way that an educated native speaker would write them.

But the problem is that according to SacredCeltic the owners of the site don't have the right to make rules. See his comment under #479895

> Mais ces "règles" n'ont été édictées par aucune autorité reconnue. Je les conteste.

So no need discussing...

sacredceltic sacredceltic 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 7:27:49 PM UTC link Permalink

Indeed

Ooneykcall Ooneykcall 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 7:47:36 PM UTC link Permalink

A standard needn't be defined officially, in fact. Common usage is enough. This punctuation is nonstandard already because an overwhelming majority of competent English users would never write it like that naturally, only perhaps if they deliberaly wanted to make a point like cedrique does. That may not make it wrong, but it does make it nonstandard.

sacredceltic sacredceltic 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 7:58:45 PM UTC link Permalink

So according to you, Charles Dickens wasn’t competent in English ? Interesting point of view...

sacredceltic sacredceltic 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 8:00:12 PM UTC link Permalink

And please define “naturally”...

sacredceltic sacredceltic 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 8:12:01 PM UTC link Permalink

The fact is that the very history of punctuation in English proves that the majority rule doesn’t apply : a vast majority of English language writers used spaces before question marks before the advent of the typewriter, and then the majority was forced to switch...
The proof is in the pudding !

Ooneykcall Ooneykcall 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 8:13:30 PM UTC link Permalink

Modern English obviously, the way it is used currently. You know it's not exactly the same as it was 200 years ago duh. Putting a space before a punctuation mark is archaic, as a matter of fact/usage, hence ought to be tagged in some way to reflect that.

sacredceltic sacredceltic 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 8:37:13 PM UTC link Permalink

@Ooneykcall

If putting a space before a question mark in English is “archaic”, although it was normal practice to all grand-parents or grand-grand-parents of current native English contributors of Tatoeba, then you should request that English language on Tatoeba should be split in two different languages: pre-typewriter and post-typewriter and maybe even beyond-typewriter (which I am a happy contributor of 🤗)

helloroto helloroto 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 8:40:20 PM UTC, edited March 3, 2021 at 8:46:51 PM UTC link Permalink

It is interesting why the change happened, but it doesn't mean that anyone has or should switch back. I'm sure we all have gripes with the way English is written. As someone with learning difficulties, you can bet I do, but a corpus of sentences for learners to use is not a place to launch a protest. The sentences here should be a good representation of how a language is used, not how speakers of other languages think it should be used.

Ooneykcall Ooneykcall 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 8:54:12 PM UTC link Permalink

Yes language can change quickly in some aspects. This is the era of rapid change, where a 10-year-old laptop is positively ancient. Some aspects of language can in fact become outdated overnight, like spelling after a major reform. For a recent example, the German spelling reform of 1996. I don't see the need to change 'wieviel' to 'wie viel' given that it makes sense as a single lexical unit, which is reflected in many languages (Fr. combien, Rus. сколько, &c.), but it has been done and now the old single-word spelling is strongly outdated. The things that are not governed by official decrees take longer to change, still that may be as little as a few decades. No problem with that, as it is entirely natural.

Anyway I suppose adding appropriate tags is enough to inform users that such punctuation is not the usual practice currently.

sacredceltic sacredceltic 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 10:40:06 PM UTC link Permalink

@Ooneykcall

> Anyway I suppose adding appropriate tags is enough to inform users that such punctuation is not the usual practice currently.

I’m delighted you ultimately understood this.
I still can’t comprehend why my sentences should cause such a fuss...

-> @admin : please change tag to “not the usual punctuation practice currently” 🤗

Ooneykcall Ooneykcall 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 10:47:37 PM UTC link Permalink

'Nonstandard punctuation' is an appropriate tag since this punctuation is currently not standard i.e. not in any regular usage in any setting at this time. It's a concise informative tag, as such, a useful marker. I've had my sentences adorned with a tag like that when they went against the proscribed/accepted norm. Didn't bother me - that's the right way to do it. As long as it doesn't say 'wrong', since this isn't wrong per se, only outdated by perhaps a century.

sacredceltic sacredceltic 2 days ago March 3, 2021 at 11:30:21 PM UTC link Permalink

Hey you’re bettering with age, Ooneykcall ;-)
Wisdom is worth the learning !

Tepan Tepan yesterday March 4, 2021 at 3:56:24 PM UTC link Permalink

@tatoebaadmins (FYI)

Obviously, sacredceltic adds non-standard sentences (i.e. with non-standard punctuation) for the sake of making a point into the corpus. Cf.

http://bit.ly/tatoebaguidelines
* Sentences should be written in the normal way that an educated native speaker would write them.
* Do not intentionally add bad or confusing sentences in order to make a point.
* Behave like mature adults.

I'm removing the space before the exclamation mark now. I will regard an attempt to reinsert the space as an attempt to damage the corpus, in which case I will delete the sentence.

Regards
Tepan

Horus Horus yesterday March 4, 2021 at 4:02:05 PM UTC link Permalink

Duplicates of this sentence have been deleted:
x #9818613

DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez yesterday March 4, 2021 at 4:54:28 PM UTC link Permalink

Why not just add the tag and leave it at that, though?

ZegPhig ZegPhig yesterday March 4, 2021 at 5:04:33 PM UTC link Permalink

Mi konsentas kun @Ooneykcall kaj @DJ_Saidez.

Tepan Tepan yesterday March 4, 2021 at 5:18:05 PM UTC link Permalink

Thanks for your feedback. As an experienced Tatoeba user, I personally don't have a problem with labels and I'm with you here. But as a corpus maintainer, I do have to do something against violations of Tatoeba rules that are supposed to protect the Tatoeba corpus and the eyes of the innocent.

Feel free to PM me in case you want to talk further about Tatoeba and the corpus. Thank you!

Ooneykcall Ooneykcall yesterday, edited yesterday March 4, 2021 at 5:44:37 PM UTC, edited March 4, 2021 at 5:45:03 PM UTC link Permalink

> the eyes of the innocent

What does this mean?

Let us ponder: would adding German sentences using the pre-1996 spelling be forbidden, even though in this case there are still many living people who were originally taught to spell that way? Shall we say that an *educated* native speaker would have switched to die neue Rechtschreibung long ago and those who may still prefer die alte Rechtschreibung in personal habit are simply backwards? I couldn't agree with that.

However, I do, after all, think that adding original sentences that use conventions pretty much no one alive uses normally anymore is kind of unhelpful, though not so that it would necessitate a controversy. Adding sentences from books printed over a century before that did originally use now outdated language (wording, spelling, punctuation) seems perfectly fine to me, as that's part of the language corpus as well.

sacredceltic sacredceltic yesterday March 4, 2021 at 6:33:40 PM UTC link Permalink

@Tepan

You’re not authorised to modify my sentences without my consent

@admins

sacredceltic sacredceltic yesterday March 4, 2021 at 7:01:22 PM UTC link Permalink

@tatoebaadmins

Tepan just destroyed this sentence

mramosch mramosch yesterday March 4, 2021 at 7:03:05 PM UTC link Permalink

@Tepan

Aren’t you a CM for the German corpus.

Despite not really agreeing with @psychadelics views I think you are not authorized to delete sentences in any languages other than your native language, except on request by the owner itself. And if you are, frankly, you shouldn’t be...

If you don’t like the discussion, well, simply don’t chime in. But the reasons behind your decision seem more personal than rational.

If you have been so sure about your point of view, why haven’t you deleted the message in the first place.

You asked for @admins help and didn’t get it (yet) and suddenly you get brave.

I am not sure that’s the right way to go, are you?

sacredceltic sacredceltic yesterday March 4, 2021 at 7:11:48 PM UTC link Permalink

@mramosch

The new German Diktat !

mramosch mramosch yesterday March 4, 2021 at 7:24:33 PM UTC link Permalink

And you better stop being ridiculous, too!

Your arrogance and the way you treat people here is past it and beyond bearable, but still, you do have the same rights as anybody else on this platform...

... but that doesn’t make me a friend of yours or your ally either!

sacredceltic sacredceltic yesterday March 4, 2021 at 9:07:50 PM UTC link Permalink

« Ridiculous », really ?

And people who are totally ignorant of the history of typography and can assert blandly that the way their own grand-parents wrote is unacceptable and shocking to the point that they would cease their participation to linguistic projects aren’t ridiculous ?
Then I don’t know what the word means anymore.

Thanuir Thanuir 21 hours ago March 5, 2021 at 7:21:44 AM UTC link Permalink

I don't think this sentence should have been removed.