menu
Tatoeba
language
Register Log in
language English
menu
Tatoeba

chevron_right Register

chevron_right Log in

Browse

chevron_right Show random sentence

chevron_right Browse by language

chevron_right Browse by list

chevron_right Browse by tag

chevron_right Browse audio

Community

chevron_right Wall

chevron_right List of all members

chevron_right Languages of members

chevron_right Native speakers

search
clear
{{language.name}} No language found.
swap_horiz
{{language.name}} No language found.
search

Lists

License

CC BY 2.0 FR

Logs

This sentence was initially added as a translation of sentence #326709"Did you possibly not notice until just now?" "Er, well ... it was just so beyond my imagination that ...".

"Apa sampai sekarang kau tidak menyadarinya?" "Ah tidak, bukan begitu maksudku... begini, aku sama sekali tidak terbayang kalau..."

added by Bilmanda, November 19, 2015

Sentence #4712615

warning
Your sentence was not added because the following already exists.
Sentence #{{vm.sentence.id}} — belongs to {{vm.sentence.user.username}} Sentence #{{vm.sentence.id}}
{{vm.sentence.furigana.info_message}} {{vm.sentence.text}}
star This sentence belongs to a native speaker.
warning This sentence is not reliable.
content_copy Copy sentence volume_up Play audio Play audio recorded by {{vm.getAudioAuthor(vm.sentence)}} volume_off No audio for this sentence. Click to learn how to contribute. info Go to sentence page
subdirectory_arrow_right
warning
{{transcription.info_message}}
Translations
Unlink this translation link Make into direct translation chevron_right
{{translation.furigana.info_message}} {{translation.text}} Existing sentence #{{translation.id}} has been added as a translation.
edit Edit this translation
warning This sentence is not reliable.
content_copy Copy sentence volume_up Play audio Play audio recorded by {{vm.getAudioAuthor(translation)}} volume_off No audio for this sentence. Click to learn how to contribute. info Go to sentence page
subdirectory_arrow_right
warning
{{transcription.info_message}}
Translations of translations
Unlink this translation link Make into direct translation chevron_right
{{translation.furigana.info_message}} {{translation.text}} Existing sentence #{{translation.id}} has been added as a translation.
edit Edit this translation
warning This sentence is not reliable.
content_copy Copy sentence volume_up Play audio Play audio recorded by {{vm.getAudioAuthor(translation)}} volume_off No audio for this sentence. Click to learn how to contribute. info Go to sentence page
subdirectory_arrow_right
warning
{{transcription.info_message}}
{{vm.expandableIcon}} {{vm.sentence.expandLabel}} Fewer translations

Comments

tommy_san tommy_san November 19, 2015 November 19, 2015 at 11:28:24 PM UTC link Permalink

所有者のいない文は訳さない方がいいですよ。この英語の文とか、大分怪しくないですか?

Bilmanda Bilmanda November 20, 2015 November 20, 2015 at 9:59:23 PM UTC link Permalink

英語の文は怪しいのですか。わたしはそれをあまり知りません。でも、たとえその分が削除されたら、インドネシア語の翻訳は自然に聞こえると思いますから、それで大丈夫ではないですか。

日本語の文を訳しましたので、英語の文も訳そうと思いました。

tommy_san tommy_san November 20, 2015 November 20, 2015 at 11:26:06 PM UTC link Permalink

ぼくも英語はそんなに得意ではないのではっきりは分かりませんが、この that で言いさすのって自然なんでしょうか? ここでたまたま咳き込んだとかならあり得るでしょうけど、例文としてここで止める必然性はないような気がします。ぼくの勘違いだったらごめんなさい。(ちなみに日本語の方はれっきとした一つの完結した発言です。)

これはそれほど悪くない文だったかもしれませんが、不自然な文や間違った英語の文を訳した場合、少なくとも次の2つの問題があります。
①インドネシア語の分かる英語学習者が模範的ではない英語を学習してしまうこと
これが一番大きな問題です。良くない文も、たくさん訳がつけばつくほど、学習者の目に触れる可能性が高くなってしまいます。ですから我々一人一人が、できるだけ良い文だけを訳すように心がけるべきなのです。
②英語の分かるインドネシア語学習者が、インドネシア語の文を信用していいかどうか分からないこと
本来だったら、不自然な文には不自然な訳を、文法的に正しくない文には文法的に正しくない訳をつけなければ忠実とはいえません。Tatoebaにはあえておかしく訳された文もあります(そのことの是非はここでは問いません)。ですから原文がまともではないとき、学習者は訳をまともな文と信用していいかどうか分からなくなってしまいます。

英語・インドネシア語の例で説明しましたが、もちろんどの言語にもあてはまることです。日本語に関しても同じです。日本語は英語以上に不自然な文がたくさんあります。例えば会話文のように見えるのに書き言葉の文体で書かれているものなど、忠実に訳しても自然な訳にしても誰かの迷惑になります。

ネイティブが所有/チェックしている文がたくさんありますので、そちらから優先的に訳していくことをお勧めします。録音のある文から訳すのも一つの手でしょう。もしぼくを信用してくださるなら、ぼくのプロフィールにあるOKリストをご活用ください。もちろんぼく自身の文もあります。

なおここに書いたのはぼくだけが言っていることではなく、コミュニティ全体の総意だと認識しています。以前掲示板でも話題になったことがありました。
https://tatoeba.org/jpn/wall/show_message/16603

Bilmanda Bilmanda November 21, 2015, edited November 21, 2015 November 21, 2015 at 2:24:05 AM UTC, edited November 21, 2015 at 4:44:45 AM UTC link Permalink

Please allow me to use English. I think I can speak more conveniently this way.

Regarding sentence that end with "that" being suspected as unnatural. I think that it's natural. Because the style of the sentence matched with the one in Indonesian. This kind of sentence, which end with "that" is also exist in Indonesian, translated as "kalau", which means "that/if".

As a sentence example, I agree that it may not proper for a sentence to be ended this way. However, if it is intended as a dialogue, and put inside quotation mark, then I have no objection to it.

Regarding problems that arise from translating unowned sentences. I think that it's almost impossible for non-native to tell whether a sentence is natural or not, without doubt. As you already mentioned in the linked discussion, it's because there are some unobvious error which only appeal to a native. Some kind of it are wording, word position, etc. We (non-native) also cannot tell whether a dialogue/sentence uses old-fashioned or improper word. There is also different nuance between word, which is often happen in Japanese. The one who can tackle them are the natives of the language.

Actually, I've ever told about this by CK before. He even gave me the link of your list. And some time later, I decide to only translate sentences tagged by OK or owned by native. The reason why I translate this sentence from the first time is because I've translated the other one which is in Japanese. I usually just link it, but since I felt that there are some differences, I decided to make its own translation. As a side note, when I translate a sentence I'd verify it first, but in case of linking, I don't. As long as it match the meaning with the Indonesian translation, I will surely link it.

Also,
I don't think that telling user not to translate unowned sentence will solve this problem, since ignorant user would just ignore it and translate it. They believe in their knowledge, that they have the capacity to tell whether a sentence is good/natural or not.

Hiding the sentence while users still have the access to it is just like adding one layer to what I said above. It's not going to solve anything.

So, here is my best suggestion. Now we have the feature to indicate our language proficiency level. So why don't we just limit the access to the unowned sentences, so that only those who have native level of proficiency can view it. Non-native user can never have the access to the sentences, unless they are on native level. The 'adoption' feature can also get the benefit from this. The only problem I can think of is that there may be some user who over-confident with their proficiency of a language. To deal with it, those who have native level of proficiency should be watched or at least verified. You can do this by checking his/her translations/sentences. After you convinced that he/she is a real native, mark that user as 'verified native'. On the contrary, if his/her translations/sentences are not good enough for a native, then forcibly decrease his/her language proficiency level, so that he/she cannot view the unowned sentence or pretend as a native. It may or may not solve the whole problems, but I think it will solve most of them.

tommy_san tommy_san November 21, 2015 November 21, 2015 at 3:29:10 AM UTC link Permalink

@Bilmanda
I basically agree with you, though I think you should ideally check each sentence before making links.
Since it concerns the whole community, you should post your suggestion on the Wall.

Bilmanda Bilmanda November 21, 2015, edited November 21, 2015 November 21, 2015 at 4:31:41 AM UTC, edited November 21, 2015 at 5:27:09 AM UTC link Permalink

>...I think you should ideally check each sentence before making links.
I do check it but it just limited to the meaning of the sentence. After a sentence is translated, I tend to link any sentence that match with it, whether they are OK/owned by native or not. The reason being that I don't want to go back to a sentence just to wait for a certain translation to be verified by native/tagged OK. To me linking sentences is difficult task, so I don't want to miss the chance where it feels easier to do, when the related sentence of a sentence is matching, without the need of searching it.

> Since it concerns the whole community, you should post your suggestion on the Wall.
I am sorry, I think I am not taking the chance to post it on the wall. I am not into that wide discussion thing. Hopefully someone else can do it.

tommy_san tommy_san November 21, 2015 November 21, 2015 at 9:37:42 AM UTC link Permalink

One problem is that once an orphan sentences has been translated into Indonesian, I get more reluctant to edit it, because I don't know whether it'll match the Indonesian after the change.

tommy_san tommy_san November 21, 2015 November 21, 2015 at 10:32:16 AM UTC link Permalink

That's true. It's not that important for me personally, but I still doubt that linking orphan sentences is a good practice, especially when you're not sure enough about their quality.

Bilmanda Bilmanda November 21, 2015, edited November 21, 2015 November 21, 2015 at 12:20:50 PM UTC, edited November 21, 2015 at 12:32:32 PM UTC link Permalink

> I get more reluctant to edit it, because I don't know whether it'll match the Indonesian after the change.
I think that is depend on the change you make. One of the example is #195478. It was originally written as an obvious literal translation, "またほかの時にそれをしましょう。" and linked to #32652. Even though it was a literal translation, the meaning between the two sentences still match. But a user change it to "もう一回…" which has changed the meaning significantly.

In case that the sentence (#195478) has been linked to many other sentences (since before the change was made), such change obviously will make it mismatch with the linked sentences. As another user noted on the sentence page, it should be changed to "また今度" not "もう一回". The one to blame is the one who edit it in the first place. As a result, it was unlinked from #32652, when actually it won't be happen if it was edited according to the original meaning.

In case that there is a sentence that is completely incorrect (or have many mistakes), so it need significant changes but it has many linked sentences, I think it's better to 1. edit it so that it match with the linked sentences (at least one of them), or 2. delete it so that it won't be a mismatch translation and add the correct version of that sentence, then link it to the correct translation. (the second is like the way Horus delete duplicate sentences and link it accordingly)

That's what I can think of when I were in that kind of situation (maybe later in the future).