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We cannot determine yet whether this sentence was initially derived from translation or not.

雉も鳴かずば打たれまい。

added by an unknown member, date unknown

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雉も鳴かずば撃たれまい。

edited by arnab, July 6, 2014

雉も鳴かずば打たれまい。

edited by arnab, September 12, 2014

Sentence #77064

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Comments

JimBreen JimBreen September 11, 2014 September 11, 2014 at 11:14:31 AM UTC link Permalink

Why the change from 打たれる to 撃たれる? They mean the same (according to 大辞林, etc.) and 打たれる is much more common.

tommy_san tommy_san September 11, 2014 September 11, 2014 at 11:55:12 AM UTC link Permalink

> They mean the same

「打」は広く一般に使う。「撃」は⑯に、「討」は⑰に使う。

⑯ア 弾丸を発射して目標物に当てる。射撃する。
イ 銃器を使って弾丸を発する。発射する。発砲する。
(『明鏡国語辞典』)

> 打たれる is much more common.

どこでお調べになりましたか? グーグルでは「撃」の方が多いようです。

https://www.google.com/search?n...72._jyLtvcGzBA
https://www.google.com/search?n...19.DAgvy506o3U


ぼくも「撃」を使います。でも辞書は広辞苑も日国も「打」を使っていますね。「打」が間違いとは言えないのは明らかですので、元に戻すべきでしょう。

JimBreen JimBreen September 11, 2014 September 11, 2014 at 12:08:03 PM UTC link Permalink

My frequency comparison is from the Google n-gram corpus (see: https://catalog.ldc.upenn.edu/LDC2009T08) The counts from there are:
打たれる 301276
撃たれる 85853
Another smaller corpus I work with has:
打たれる 12363
撃たれる 3565
I know that it's a matter of personal choice, but 打たれる was not wrong, and it's the only form of うたれる given in 広辞苑 and 大辞泉. The Kenkyusha 新和英大辞典第5版 only has it too.

tommy_san tommy_san September 11, 2014 September 11, 2014 at 12:20:32 PM UTC link Permalink

> 打たれる was not wrong

これは同意なのですが、

・その頻度調査は「心を打たれる」とか「滝に打たれる」も含まれていませんか? その場合は断然「打」の方が一般的でしょう。雉が撃たれたり乱射事件で撃たれたりするのは別問題です。

・辞書によって「うたれる」という見出しを挙げているものがあるようですが、この文は「うつ」+「れる」と分解するべきでしょう。研究社の和英でいうと、「うたれる」の意味ではなくて、「うつ」4の意味です。

JimBreen JimBreen September 11, 2014 September 11, 2014 at 12:37:24 PM UTC link Permalink

You are right - I should have been thinking of うつ and not うたれる. Sorry to have interjected unnecessarily.

tommy_san tommy_san September 11, 2014 September 11, 2014 at 1:01:31 PM UTC link Permalink

研究社新和英が挙げているような「打たれる」の例文をお探しでしたら、2つ追加しておきました。

[#3487062] トムなんか雷に打たれて死ねばいいのに。
[#3487064] 病気と闘いながら懸命に生きる子供たちの姿に心を打たれました。

arnab arnab September 12, 2014 September 12, 2014 at 5:04:50 PM UTC link Permalink

元に戻し、別訳をつけました。