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Sentence #8135701

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Comments

amrir amrir date unknown date unknown link Permalink

بخصوص راية الماك "MAK" التي لا تمثل هوية قاطني سكان شمال إيفريقيا .. هذه الراية و هذا العلم الدخيل الذي لا يمت بصلة لا من قريب و لا من بعيد للثقافة الأمازيغية .. فأنا كامازيغي أب عن جد أقول لهذه الحركة الإنفصالية الخبيثة و كل من يمثلها و كل من يقف وراء المدعو "فرحات مهني" و اذنابه .. انهم لا يمثلون لا الشعب و لا الثقافة الأمازيغية .. العلم الامازيغي معروف و مشهود له و باعتاراف جميع المتمزغين بجميع اطيافهم و من واحة سيوة بمصر الى جزر الكناري . راية واحدة و ثقافة واحدة .. https://www.google.com/search?q...9w8hIBM:&vet=1 .. أدعو القائمين و المسؤولين عن هذا هذا الموقع إلى حضر استخدام هذا العلم و كل من يمثله .. و تحية إلى كل الامازيغ الأحرار و لا للإنفصاليين و لحركة "MAK" الخبيثة و المقيتة.

belkacem77 belkacem77 August 27, 2019 August 27, 2019 at 2:50:37 PM UTC link Permalink

your sentence is a lie.
@Trang @CK such sentences should no be on Tatoeba.

Ferhat Mehenni is a political leader who is fighting for democracy in Algeria.

TRANG TRANG August 27, 2019 August 27, 2019 at 3:28:40 PM UTC link Permalink

Please understand that CK and myself are not the main people in charge of such issues.

You should send an email to community-admins@tatoeba.org instead.

You can also mention @TatoebaAdmins or send a private message to TatoebaAdmins, but this is still a bit experimental.

https://tatoeba.org/eng/user/profile/TatoebaAdmins

----

Aside of that, I would like to highlight some paragraphs in our Terms of Use (they are in French, but you can understand French).

https://tatoeba.org/eng/terms_of_use#section-5-1

De surcroît, le contenu de notre site ne vaut pas l’avis d’un professionnel, notamment dans le cadre de phrases sur des sujets médicaux, juridiques, historiques, etc.

Selon vos sensibilités personnelles, les phrases peuvent présenter des contenus perçus comme offensants, mal intentionnés, erronés, problématiques. Dans de tels cas, nous vous encourageons à faire preuve de sens critique et d’une prise de recul.

https://tatoeba.org/eng/terms_o...-1#section-8-1

Il n’est cependant pas interdit de contribuer une phrase injurieuse sur notre Site Internet, car la réalité des langues se compose aussi de registres populaires, argotiques et vulgaires. Nous nous réservons le droit d’autoriser ou de supprimer des phrases de ces registres selon le jugement que nous portons sur l’intentionnalité. Nous pouvons en effet supprimer, sans préavis ni obligation de justification, les phrases qui nous paraissent porteuses d’intentions malveillantes. En cela, notre volonté n’est pas de censurer, mais bien de préserver la sérénité du projet.

soliloquist soliloquist August 27, 2019 August 27, 2019 at 7:23:09 PM UTC link Permalink

If this sentence is going to be removed, the moderation must be conducted fairly and equally. The Kabyle team is adding supremacist and more offensive sentences insulting all members of a race, nation or religion. (#8111650 , #8114964 , #8135176 and many more)

On the other hand, they're also adding theatrical sentences flattering Israel or Jews to gain sympathy from the Westerners for their cause.

belkacem77 belkacem77 August 27, 2019 August 27, 2019 at 8:05:17 PM UTC link Permalink

@soliloquist,
I agree with you. Tatoeba should stay a peacefull place.

You have to know that Ferhat Mehenni is for kabyle people what Mustafa Kemal Atatürk is for turkish people. Imagine replacing Ferhat Mehenni with Mustafa Kemal Atatürk or Recep Tayyip Erdoğan. How could you feel?

@Igider and @Amastan should consider their sentences and their translations.

Taotoeba is not an arena for racism and Xenophobia.

soliloquist soliloquist August 28, 2019 August 28, 2019 at 3:00:23 PM UTC link Permalink

Thanks for warning your team member. You can keep your sentences about Atatürk and Erdoğan if you like. I'm not in favor of sentence censoring, but I might tag such sentences without informing.

Amastan Amastan August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 11:03:41 AM UTC link Permalink

Ferhat Mehenni is for MAK people (the followers of his separatist group) what Atatürk is for the Turks. Please, followers of MAK, talk in the name of your separatist group, not in the name of the Kabyles. I and dozens of members of the Berber-speaking members are Kabyles.

@AlanF_US @Pfirsichbauemchen

Besides, I'd like to seize the opportunity to remind the admins that the flag used to represent the Kabyle variant of Berber is the flag of the separatist group. So I urge you to please follow @Cueyayotl's recommendation of avoiding any colors or symbols that could cause controversy in the representation of Berber variants. This issue is still ongoing simply because it hasn't been resolved. So please apply Cueyayotl's recommendation to solve this problem once and for all.

@LinaTamazight @Warwari @MessDjaaf

Amastan Amastan August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 11:05:44 AM UTC link Permalink

@soliloquist

There are many sentences posted about Ferhat Mehenni, who is a public figure, that report absolute and true facts about him. They are not there to "demonize" him. The sentences report what he does and says even if some sensitivities are tickled by that.

Amastan Amastan August 29, 2019, edited August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 11:47:02 AM UTC, edited August 29, 2019 at 12:21:42 PM UTC link Permalink

@Pfirsichbaeumchen

OK. Let's leave the issue of "antagonization" aside and solve a more important issue:

We need to solve the flag issue. I, as a person of Kabyle origin, together with many fellow Berber-language contributors, refuse that our variant be represented with the flag of the separatist group that calls itself MAK and is led by Ferhat Mehenni. We are Algerian, ask any Algerian you want, any Kabyle you want and they WILL confirm you that this flag belongs and is exclusively used by the supporters of the MAK separatist group together with its sympathizers. This flag is unambiguous *THE* symbol, *THE* unmistakable sign, the *THE* unquestionable logo of the separatist group and not of the Kabyles (the 7 million people who live or hail from Kabylie, in northeastern Algeria).

Please have a look at these videos where only Ferhat Mehenni and Kabyles affiliated to the MAK separatist group use this flag:

Video 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSxJ9YqornY

Video 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-CW-nrxpOc

Video 3 (most important one because it's directly related to the flag itself in minute 6:30):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te5i5EPH7QU

"Où on en est avec le travail de votre gouvernement sur le choix d'un drapeau kabyle ?"
"What's the progress of your government's work on the choice of a Kabyle flag?"

And the question anyone would ask here: If a marginal separatist group creates a flag for a region for which it claims independence, why should it be considered by parties that are not part of this separatist group to duly and rightfully represent this region?

I could even send you screenshots of the private messages sent to me by some of the Kabyle-speaking contributors that are against the use of this flag. But because they don't want to "anger" the "leaders" of the so-called "team", they refrained from posting their thoughts in public.

There absolutely is a real issue here and it can't be silenced. I don't at all think that it's ethical for Tatoeba to silence it.

@AlanF_US
@cueyayotl
@soliloquist
@BakirHamou
@MisterBrown
@Warwari
@LinaTamazight
@Ubezwi
@Ricardo14
@Sammer

Pfirsichbaeumchen Pfirsichbaeumchen August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 11:56:23 AM UTC link Permalink

There's an article with some information concerning the flag here, for all of those addressed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabylie_flag.

Amastan Amastan August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 12:00:25 PM UTC link Permalink

@Trang

I would like to remind you that you told us, in late 2018, when this flag issue was first raised, that Mr @Cueyayotl was appointed as Tatoeba's member who should arbitrate to solve this issue. Cueyayotl eventually ruled and recommended that it would be better if Tatoeba avoided any political colors or symbols that maybe cause a controversy on the website. This is why no colorful flags whatsoever were chosen for Shawi and Tuareg. However, and despite Mr Cueyayotl's neutral and wise opinion, the MAK flag still continues to represent the Kabyle variant of the Berber language.

This is why I would like to remind you of this issue once again so that a final solution be reached to everyone's satisfaction.

I and a couple of my fellow Berber-language contributors were suspended, in November 2018, for insisting on the solving of this issue on the Wall, however, I would like to remind you all, dear Admins, that:

1- Suspending us from the website wouldn't be an ethical and fair solution.
2- Silencing this issue on the Wall wouldn't be an ethical and fair solution either.
3- Maintaining the status quo wouldn't be a correct solution either. After all, Tatoeba is there to, as we all say it, promote peace, but also, spread correct and scientific knowledge. However, the representation of a Berber-language variant with a marginalized separatist group's flag has created tensions on the website and it also promotes misinformation by suggesting that all the 7 million Kabyles ARE or FEEL represented by a minuscule separatist group.




belkacem77 belkacem77 August 29, 2019, edited August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 12:32:08 PM UTC, edited August 29, 2019 at 1:04:24 PM UTC link Permalink

I remember everyone that not all us in kabylia are independantists, but none can use such words to attack people with lies.

There are nice words to describe people with whom you don't share ideas with but not lying about him.

I posted 4 sentences by replacing Ferhet Mehenni with another person just to show how could a sentence offense someone.

There are many objective resources for those who want know more about that personnality and his ideas, that not necessary are ours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferhat_Mehenni

Amastan Amastan August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 12:40:41 PM UTC link Permalink

@Pfirsichbaeumchen

The rules concerning writing controversial sentences are unambiguous. I suggest that we focus on the flag issue so that all would be solved once and for all.

soliloquist soliloquist August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 12:59:09 PM UTC link Permalink

> This issue is still ongoing simply because it hasn't been resolved. So please apply Cueyayotl's recommendation to solve this problem once and for all.

@Amastan

https://i.ibb.co/HPzsJfH/kabyle.png

Cueyayotl isn't active. By his recommendation, if you're referring to the flag used on Ubuntu's Kabyle translation page whose owner is belkacem77, it might be a fair solution. If they're using it there, there's no reason why it isn't acceptable here. Apparently, it's embracing both separatists and non-separatists. Why adopting a 4-year-old controversial flag for a language, when there's already an older and more neutral alternative accepted by both parties? If the Kabyle team discovered Tatoeba before 2015, what flag would they use for their language?

belkacem77 belkacem77 August 29, 2019, edited August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 1:14:14 PM UTC, edited August 29, 2019 at 1:16:48 PM UTC link Permalink

@soliloquist

The issue here is about insults and lies not flags. For flags you can check theses links or make a search on Google:

Official berber flag adopted by all north afrcians berbers: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...erber_flag.svg

Official kabyle flag adopted by the kab government : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...lag-kabyle.svg

Now, how can we deal with sentences and semantics to avoid offensing people through Tatoeba.

Tatoeba must remain a peacefull place to share sentences and languages, it's not a political arena to attack people and or share hatred .

Again, please would you like reconsider all offensing sentence and update some rules on Tatoeba. If we don't, we can find later antisemite sentences, racial and sexual attakcs and so on.

Amastan Amastan August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 1:23:45 PM UTC link Permalink

@soliloquist

"If they're using it there, there's no reason why it isn't acceptable here."

Cueyayotl also recommended that we adopt this solution: Using the ISO-639-3 code on a white background (ie a white flag with an ISO code) such as the one adopted for the Shawi Berber variant (Tachawit):

https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...ne/indifferent



belkacem77 belkacem77 August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 1:27:58 PM UTC link Permalink


The issue here is the insulting, violent sentences and lies that should be removed not flags. If you would like talk about flags, you can start another feed.

Please stay with the subject to find a way and remove theses insulting sentences and lies.

Amastan Amastan August 29, 2019, edited August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 1:50:35 PM UTC, edited August 29, 2019 at 1:58:38 PM UTC link Permalink

@soliloquist

"Official kabyle flag adopted by the kab government : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...lag-kabyle.svg"

The flag mentioned by Belkacem77 is the flag of the MAK separatist group, a very marginal, small group led by Ferhat Mehenni. It's clear as day and no one, not even the separatists themselves would deny this. Belkacem77 himself claims that this flag belongs to the "kab" (in fact the MAK) government. There are 7 million Kabyles who are neither part of the MAK (official members of this group) nor supporters of it. Just have a look at the super-massive marches and demonstrations currently taking place in Kabylie (Algeria) where no MAK flag is to be seen anywhere:

Video 1 - August 16, 2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46iMVv-4uVA

How do you explain the total absence of this flag in the heart of Kabylie?

Video 2 - August 2, 2019:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWWDMTWjxRo


Video 3 - July 20, 2019:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvvtfb2xwpE

These are the Kabyles that the MAK separatist group refers to. Where is the separatist flag?

Video 4 - July 19, 2019: Millions of Kabyles march in Bejaia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6hHJe7mZVY

Where are the flags of the MAK separatist group?

Amastan Amastan August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 1:55:32 PM UTC link Permalink

@soliloquist

I have just had a word with the admins about the sentences and it's history.

We would like now to pass to another important topic, that of the flag. I think this is pretty much the only and last thorny and big issue that absolutely needs to be solved here on Tatoeba. After that, everyone could go about their business no matter who or what they are (separatists, racists, Muslims, Islamists, Algerian, computer super-geniuses, translators, teachers, poets, etc.).

belkacem77 belkacem77 August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 2:01:34 PM UTC link Permalink

And please, if you find an insulting or violent sentence in the Kabyle corpus, don't hesitate to contact @Amazigh_Bedar or any other active user on the Kabyle Copus.

Again, let's Totoeba be a peacefull place to share sentences and spread love but not hatred.

Thanks for deleeting violent sentences and lies.

Amastan Amastan August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 2:03:32 PM UTC link Permalink

@Tatoeba

I'm not at all intending to make this personal with Belkacem77 nor with any sympathizer or friend or a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a separatist. I don't care about the MAK separatist group since I'm not involved in politics. All we care about is that Tatoeba don't misrepresent my variant of the Berber language, Kabyle, with the flag of the MAK separatist group. This is not acceptable and this is factually false. As for personal problems, I'm done with them and as from now, I'm not even going to address Belkacem77 directly and would never mention his name except when I'm referring to his comments and messages. I'm done. I'm through. Tutto è finito. The end. Ciao. Finished. Farewell. Case closed. End of the story. Period. Full stop. Peace and love. Bye.




Amastan Amastan August 29, 2019, edited August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 2:10:51 PM UTC, edited August 29, 2019 at 2:13:20 PM UTC link Permalink

@Tatoeba

I urge the admins of the website to find a solution once and for all regarding the language flag chosen to represent the Berber variant of Kabyle. In fact, Kabyle is the variant of the Berber language spoken by a good 7 million people both in Kabylie and in many other areas in Algeria and the Algerian diaspora in Europe and North America and, obviously, not all Berber-speakers who identify as Kabyle feel or want to be represented with the flag of a minuscule separatist and racist group called MAK. In fact, no sensible person would like to be represented by the marginal political separatist group of Ferhat Mehenni who, on June 6, 2018, called for the setting up of armed militia in Kabylie.

Please watch this video and read the related article on this page:
https://algeriepart.com/2018/06...armee-kabylie/

We have already put all this information forth last year and we need to find a final issue to this problem that's continuing to drag on generating a lot of tension and controversy on the pages of Tatoeba. Peace and love and lots of kisses to everyone.




TheBahi TheBahi August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 2:49:28 PM UTC link Permalink

I am new to this website, I wasn't expecting at all to see such a topic.
For me, as a Kabyle, it's obvious that we don't have any other flag except the Algerian one.
It is unacceptable to mark the kabyle variant with a separatist flagn, it's a shame.

Amastan Amastan August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 2:56:05 PM UTC link Permalink

@TheBahi

First of all, welcome to this website. Anṣuf yes-k a gma. I hope you'd enjoy working here. This type of argument is just uncommon on this website and we're just discussing it in an attempt to solve it once and for all. Please have a look at the arguments I have put forth and visit the Wikipedia article whose link has been posted by Admin Pfirsichbaeumchen to learn more about the MAK flag and have a confirmation once and for all that this flag is, in fact, the flag of the separatist group led by Ferhat Mehenni and is far from representing the 7 or more million people who call themselves Kabyle and speak the Kabyle variant of the Berber language.

belkacem77 belkacem77 August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 3:00:46 PM UTC link Permalink

The discussion is it about insulting and violent sentences and lies or about flag?

Amastan Amastan August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 3:02:41 PM UTC link Permalink

@TheBahi

I think that this is the thorniest issue on this website and once solved, everyone could enjoy working on their translation or learning projects and there wouldn't be any more arguments over this topic in the future. And since you're Kabyle, I'd also love that you express any idea you have regarding this issue. However, as you may know, one should do it in a respectful way and without attacking fellow members personally. I know that the issue is very sensitive and I understand the deep feelings that many of us harbor regarding the separatist group and its radical views, but I suggest that we address this issue and we express our refusal to have our variant represented by the separatist flag FORCEFULLY but with the utmost respect to everyone.



belkacem77 belkacem77 August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 3:10:19 PM UTC link Permalink

@Amastan
And someone from Spain would ask to delete the Catalan And Basque flags. Someone from France would ask to delete the Breton and Corsikan Flangs. Palestinians would ask to delete Israeli flag and so on...

Please, stay with the main discution and it would be better if you can be nice and don't insult people and lie about them by using Tatoeba.

Tatoeba is a linguistics tool not a political arena.

Amastan Amastan August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 3:15:44 PM UTC link Permalink

@TheBahi

Just for a reminder, since you're new here:

In 2018, the Kabyle variant of the Berber language was added to Tatoeba. However, in October, I myself (as a member and a corpus maintainer of Kabyle descent) raised the issue of the flag, finding it absolutely unusual that Kabyle would be represented by the flag of Ferhat Mehenni's separatist group that's far, far, far away from representing Kabyles.

For your information, many Kabylophones on Tatoeba expressed their rejection of the flag and sent me private messages about that.

Because of the huge controversy created by this flag, mainly due to the opposition of some Tatoeba users to have it replaced with another more neutral language flag, Trang (the owner of this website) referred the issue to Mr Cueyayotl (a linguist) who, in the end, ruled that, regarding Berber variants, it would be better if Tatoeba avoided representing them with political colors and symbols that could cause tension and controversy. As an alternative solution, Cueyayotl suggested that we represent the Berber-language variants with the ISO-639-3 codes of the respective dialects on a white background (ie a white flag containing the ISO code of the Berber dialect to be represented by the flag).


However, and despite the fact that Shawi (Tachawit) and Tuareg ended up being represented with such flags, the flag of the "Anavad" (Ferhat Mehenni's government-in-exile affiliated to the MAK separatist group) wasn't removed from this website and it wrongly continues to represent the Kabyle Amazigh variant. This is not only unacceptable but blatantly incorrect.

Today, as fellow member Belkacem77 (that I shall never address again directly) brings it forth, and the Wikipedia article whose link is post here above by Admin Pfirsichbaeumchen clearly states, this flag belongs to the "Anavad" (Ferhat Mehenni's government-in-exile affiliated to the MAK separatists) and, as a conclusion, it's completely preposterous that he be used to represent apolitical Kabyles who are on this website solely for the development of its content. If you are interested, I can provide you with much more information about this issue.





Amastan Amastan August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 3:22:11 PM UTC link Permalink

Belkacem77: "Tatoeba is a linguistics tool not a political arena."

This is one more reason why the MAK flag needs to go and be replaced with a neutral flag as per Cueyayotl's wise and sensible recommendation.

We should not reproduce the arguments of last year. However, if just any point discussed here is responded to with an old story unearthed from last years discussions, then here is my reply:

1- The Catalan language is represented with Catalonia's official flag. Not the flag of the separatists.

2- The Basque language is represented with the official flag of the Basque autonomous community that's also official in Spain.

The flag Mr Belkacem77 is defending is openly clear that it's the flag of the Anavad (the government-in-exile affiliated to the MAK separatists).








belkacem77 belkacem77 August 29, 2019, edited August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 4:00:47 PM UTC, edited August 29, 2019 at 4:02:24 PM UTC link Permalink

@Amastan

Thanks and here we are.

Before the Catalan and Basque communities were autonomous, they were fighting to get it. The Kabyle community is now struggling to be autonomous.

To discuss about politics, please join us on Facebook not on Tatoeba.

Please stay on the main subject. I remind you that Tatoeba has some rules for all communities about sentences, please would you like respect that rules to avoid insulting people?

If you voilate these rules, you will open the door for others to add racist sentences and lies as you are doing. Tatoeba is for linguistics things but not racism and hatred.

It would be nice to delete the sentences you added because you are opening the door to people to express their bad thoughts using our favorite tool. Tatoeba have to stay a place to learn good things not to spread evil.

soliloquist soliloquist August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 4:04:16 PM UTC link Permalink

@Amastan

I had a look at the videos you provided. The flag they were waving alongside the Algerian flag was the same flag that's on belkacem77's Ubuntu Kabyle translation page. Even Ferhat Mehenni was making a speech in front of it (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/e2zSyotm...resdefault.jpg ). It's probably the only flag accepted by both sides.

> Cueyayotl also recommended that we adopt this solution: Using the
> ISO-639-3 code on a white background (ie a white flag with an ISO code)
> such as the one adopted for the Shawi Berber variant (Tachawit):

https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/sh...#message_30141

Cueyayotl's third suggestion (the Berber flag + ISO code) seems to me the most fair and suitable solution. The white (blank) flag might be considered oppressive after all these arguments.

I would also like to draw everyone's attention to the fact that the issue here isn't about one people/nation oppressing another, but a divided people. Both parties are Kabyles.

belkacem77 belkacem77 August 29, 2019, edited August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 4:09:36 PM UTC, edited August 29, 2019 at 4:11:25 PM UTC link Permalink

@soliloquist


Please, would you like find a solution for the offensing sentences? I wonder why you are talking about flags!!!!


soliloquist soliloquist August 29, 2019, edited August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 4:14:13 PM UTC, edited August 29, 2019 at 4:15:43 PM UTC link Permalink

@belkacem77

> Please, would you like find a solution for the offensing sentences? I wonder why you are talking about flags!!!!

Because I believe that one is the reason (or result) of the other.

belkacem77 belkacem77 August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 4:17:55 PM UTC link Permalink

And you find normal that when a Palestinaian sees the Israeli flag on Tatoeba, he would add sentences insulting people from Israel?

Unbelievable.

Yagurten Yagurten August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 5:12:55 PM UTC link Permalink

Je viens juste d'atterrir sur ce riche échange que j'espère continuera dans le calme et le respect. Cependant j'aimerais également y apporter mon grain de sel si vous le permettez. Franchement et toute honnêteté, je trouve que ce soit anormal que l'on représente le kabyle qui nous appartient tous, malgré nos différences politiques ou idéologiques en tant que Kabyles ou Algériens en général, donc je disais qie c'est anormal que le kabyle soit symbolisé sur ce site avec le drapeau du MAK. Je suis moi-même Kabyle et j'aimerais que cela soit changé. Les vidéos postées ci-dessus montrent bien que les Kabyles ne sont pas synonymes du MAK. Je remercie tout le monde pour les clarifications et le respect. Ceci reste mon avis. Tanemmirt.

belkacem77 belkacem77 August 29, 2019, edited August 29, 2019 August 29, 2019 at 8:17:41 PM UTC, edited August 29, 2019 at 8:19:20 PM UTC link Permalink

For those cho can understand French, I suggest you an article to understand what Kabyle people is facing in Algeria, and how some are acting and reacting on the Web against everything about Kabyle language, culture and identity (note that we are facing racism everyday in real life):

https://www.lavantgarde-algerie...91K1e2ZlFiAfQA

Amastan Amastan August 30, 2019 August 30, 2019 at 8:36:06 AM UTC link Permalink

@Yagurten

Tamezwarut, tanemmirt ɣef uttekki-nnek deg uskasi-a. Ulac ccek dakken teẓrid dakken tamsalt-a ugar n useggas aya seg wasmi ay tella d acu kan, aql-aɣ nettnadi-as-d tifrat. Iban dakken nekkni aql-aɣ la nessawal s leqder ɣef temsalt-a acku, akken ay as-ttinin wayt zik deg Tmurt n Leqbayel, "awal ay t-iferrun d awal". S waya, tamsalt-a ad tefru kan s wawal ed ṣṣwab.

Premièrement, merci pour ta participation dans ce débat. Comme tu le sais, cette question a commencé il y a plus d'un an, cependant nous sommes en train de chercher une solution pour la résoudre. Il est clair que nous sommes en train de débattre avec respect, car, comme le disent nos aïeux d'autrefois en Kabylie, "le différend ne se résoud qu'avec le dialogue". C'est pour cela que cette question ne peut être résolue que par le dialogue et la sagesse.


Amastan Amastan August 30, 2019 August 30, 2019 at 8:39:42 AM UTC link Permalink

"an article to understand what Kabyle people is facing in Algeria"

In my humble opinion, I think that Mr Belkacem77, and with all due respect, is contradicting himself. On the one hand, he states (please read the messages above) that he isn't doing politics here, but on the other hand, and by reading his reactions (such as his latest message on this page) it seems that he's acting like the spokesperson of the MAK group and the entirety of the 7 million Kabyles of whom I'm myself and countless Tatoeba members are. Is Mr Belkacem77 here genuinely to work on languages or is he here to further separatist ideas through the promotion of the separatist flag?

Amastan Amastan August 30, 2019 August 30, 2019 at 8:50:26 AM UTC link Permalink

Re: "Before the Catalan and Basque communities were autonomous, they were fighting to get it."

In my opinion, the MAK separatist group has no legitimacy to represent the 7 million Kabyles that are not members or activists or part or sympathizers of this group. Just look at the oceans of people marching in Kabylie without the MAK flag (please watch the videos whose links are posted above). The Catalan and Basque flags are, in contrast, officially recognized by Madrid. I would like to remind all of us here that Tatoeba should be a translation and languages website rather than a platform to further the political agendas of small separatist groups that are far from representing the people and the areas in the name of which they're talking.

I also think that this endless circle of "comment-reply", "comment-reply", "comment-reply" should also be avoided since, in my opinion, all the essential things about this issue have been said and it's now up to Tatoeba's admins to solve this problem through arbitration.

belkacem77 belkacem77 August 30, 2019 August 30, 2019 at 9:06:44 AM UTC link Permalink

We just asking Tatoeba to delete lies , insults and hatred from its corpus.

If sentences deal with history and politics, there many trusted resources on the web.

For those who want politics or religious proselitism, there are many forums and social networks to do that. Tatoeba's goal deals only with sentences and translations.

Amastan Amastan August 30, 2019 August 30, 2019 at 9:15:40 AM UTC link Permalink

Re: "delete lies , insults and hatred from its corpus"

Sure and who claims the opposite? Tatoeba is there to inform people, help people by teaching them languages and things they don't know. Yet, these things should be correct, based on real and correct facts. This is why, and in my humble opinion, the Kabyle variant of Berber should absolutely not be represented with the flag of a small separatist flag. Representing Kabylie with Ferhat Mehenni's flag is blatantly inaccurate. So as much as "lies, insults and hatred" should be deleted from the website, the wrong flag should also be corrected to a more correct one. I hope this makes sense.

Sammer Sammer August 30, 2019 August 30, 2019 at 11:39:58 AM UTC link Permalink

Hello ,
This flag is not recognized by all the Kabyle, it is instructed by a group of separatists who do not resent the Kabyles.
We ask the site managers to remove this flag.
cordially
Sammer

Sammer Sammer August 31, 2019 August 31, 2019 at 11:42:44 AM UTC link Permalink

Hello ,
My proposition :
The only solution is to remove the flag of the MAK is replaced by the Amazigh, the latter, it brings together and represents all Kabyles and other Amazigh components of North Africa.
Cordially,
Sammer

Sammer Sammer August 31, 2019 August 31, 2019 at 11:42:54 AM UTC link Permalink

Hello ,
My proposition :
The only solution is to remove the flag of the MAK is replaced by the Amazigh, the latter, it brings together and represents all Kabyles and other Amazigh components of North Africa.
Cordially,
Sammer

Sammer Sammer August 31, 2019 August 31, 2019 at 11:43:05 AM UTC link Permalink

Hello ,
My proposition :
The only solution is to remove the flag of the MAK is replaced by the Amazigh, the latter, it brings together and represents all Kabyles and other Amazigh components of North Africa.
Cordially,
Sammer

TheBahi TheBahi August 31, 2019 August 31, 2019 at 11:43:29 AM UTC link Permalink

Please have a look on this link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...ents_in_Europe

Why don't we see all these flags on the web and on Tatoeba?
A separatist groupe must remain a separatist groupe, and not forcing eneryone to join it or to agree with it.

For a real Kabyle, MAK is as dangerous as Israel, and should deal with it the same way as with Israel.

Regarding Ferhat Mehenni, The prophet of MAK followers, the only quality of this man is his smile and eloquence, but unfortunatly, the qualities of this ex singer are the strenghts of all the manipulators.

TRANG TRANG August 31, 2019, edited August 31, 2019 August 31, 2019 at 12:04:33 PM UTC, edited August 31, 2019 at 12:04:56 PM UTC link Permalink

Please stop debating the Kabyle flag on this comment. Spamming about it here isn't going to help.

If you have nothing new to say compared to what has already been said in previous comments, or in https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/sh...#message_30141 (or in many other threads on the Wall) then simply wait.

Pfirsichbaeumchen is working on figuring this out.

I have updated our wiki page to clarify the status on Kabyle:
https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...request#kabyle

belkacem77 belkacem77 August 31, 2019 August 31, 2019 at 5:08:24 PM UTC link Permalink

@Trang

Until now, I asked the Kabyle Contributor to don"t reply for these attacks as Amastan did.

We are living in Kabylia and this flag is a regional flag not a Flag of MAK, URK, UPK (by the way there are many movements in Kabylia and Amastan ignore it since he is not from Kabylia) as the Catalan, Basque and other regional flags arround the World.

Now, I will invite kabyle contribs to react.
Note that none of the people above contributed on the Kabyle sentences. They were recruited by Amastan as he was used to do.

On Facebook, he contacted some kab contributors and threatend them. I have screenShots from his discussions with some Kabyle contribs and told them that the Algerian police can arrest you if you continue working on that corpus.

I will inform Kabyle contribs and invite them on Tatoeba as Amastan did and I will share with you discussions made by Amastan with some Kabyle Contribs where he threatened them if they continue working on the Kabyle corpus.




Amastan Amastan August 31, 2019, edited September 2, 2019 August 31, 2019 at 5:15:47 PM UTC, edited September 2, 2019 at 8:20:24 AM UTC link Permalink

NOTE (message edited on September 2, 2019): This message is a reply to Belkacem77's previous message (before he edited it):


Belkacem77's message:
*****
Until now, I asked the Kabyle Contributor to don"t reply for these attacks as Amastan did.

We are living in Kabylia and this flag is a regional flag not a Flag of MAK, URK, UPK (by the way there are many movements in Kabylia and Amastan ignore it since he is not from Kabylia) as the Catalan, Basque and other regional flags arround the World.

Now, I will invite kabyle contribs to react.
Note that none of the people above contributed on the Kabyle sentences. They were recruited by Amastan as he was used to do.

On Facebook, he contacted some kab contributors and threatend them. I have screenShots from his discussions with some Kabyle contribs and told them that the Algerian police can arrest you if you continue working on that corpus.

I will inform Kabyle contribs and invite them on Tatoeba as Amastan did and I will share with you discussions made by Amastan with some Kabyle Contribs where he threatened them if they continue working on the Kabyle corpus.******



My reply:

I think that Belkacem77 is trying to make all this issue personal. I already have a legal issue with him (the threatening messages published by him and other MAK members on his Facebook page were screenshot by me and sent to a law firm in October 2018 so that we take the appropriate legal action against those people once all the elements are gathered by the relevant legal authorities [names, IP addresses and all the electronic evidence required to justify a lawsuit against those persons who often use Facebook anonymously - 4 persons are of the utmost interest: 2 live in Algeria, 1 in France and 1 in Canada]. You are already familiar with the subject when I sent you and all the other admins screenshots of some of the threatening messages I screenshot from their pages. However, I am perfectly aware that you have nothing to do with that and I'm just posting this as a reply to Belkacem77's crazy comments.

As for these "threats" and "intimidation" he's talking about, I am shocked to learn that, and I have no knowledge about it.

I'd love to remind the sympathizers of the separatist group that they should rather work for the development of languages instead of furthering their separatist group.


This is the proof that this flag is the flag of the MAK separatist group:

Video 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSxJ9YqornY

Video 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-CW-nrxpOc

Video 3 (most important one because it's directly related to the flag itself in minute 6:30):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te5i5EPH7QU

"Où on en est avec le travail de votre gouvernement sur le choix d'un drapeau kabyle ?"
"What's the progress of your government's work on the choice of a Kabyle flag?"

This is the proof that the 7 million Kabyles who are neither members of the MAK separatist group nor feel represented by this separatist group never carry this flag:

Video 1 - August 16, 2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46iMVv-4uVA

How do you explain the total absence of this flag in the heart of Kabylie?

Video 2 - August 2, 2019:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWWDMTWjxRo


Video 3 - July 20, 2019:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvvtfb2xwpE

These are the Kabyles that the MAK separatist group refers to. Where is the separatist flag?

Video 4 - July 19, 2019: Millions of Kabyles march in Bejaia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6hHJe7mZVY

Where are the flags of the MAK separatist group?

CONCLUSIONS:

1- The MAK flag isn't official.
2- The MAK flag doesn't represent all Kabyles.
Which implies:
3- It is an error to use the MAK flag as the symbol of the Kabyle variant of the Berber language.

belkacem77 belkacem77 August 31, 2019 August 31, 2019 at 5:18:34 PM UTC link Permalink

@Trang

We are also seeing the possibility to find a solution legally according to the Amercian Law. A lawyer will contact Taotoeba'a owners to see if the Kabyle flag violates American Law or any law governing the visual identities of languages ​​on the Web.

Amastan Amastan August 31, 2019 August 31, 2019 at 5:20:31 PM UTC link Permalink

@Trang

I'm shocked to see how far this political group is ready to go and sue Tatoeba, a simple website made to help people and this.... for political reasons... Just to defend the MAK's project.

Amastan Amastan August 31, 2019 August 31, 2019 at 5:21:47 PM UTC link Permalink

@Trang

No need to suspend me. I'm stopping writing on this page right now.

Menad Menad August 31, 2019 August 31, 2019 at 5:32:20 PM UTC link Permalink

I would first like to say that, this has no sens such attacks, hate and propaganda, we are here to discuss language, not politics, but since they always talk about it, I would like for myself ( I don't talk on behalf of everyone) ensure that this flag is just a flag, and beside that it's a regional one as it exists so many regional flags everywhere in the world, it doesn't belong to any movement. I wish if we were talking language instead of this non-sense.

Sifaks Sifaks August 31, 2019 August 31, 2019 at 6:28:10 PM UTC link Permalink

Hello @Trang

European Parliament. Interview with Ferhat Mehenni.
https://kabylia.wordpress.com/2...an-parliament/

If the Kabyle flag has not its place on Tatoeba, then a bunch of other should be removed as well. Otherwise it is not fair at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U...s_Organization

Facebook, Google, Wordpress, and... actually all the platform on the web have nothing against the Kabyle flag. They know better. They won't be intimidated by a single contributor, whatever his contributions!

Tatoeba has a responsibility in that matter.
Defamation on Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation

TRANG TRANG August 31, 2019 August 31, 2019 at 6:52:02 PM UTC link Permalink

I will be ignoring every message I receive from this thread and every email or private message I receive regarding the Kabyle flag, except if they come from Pfirsichbaeumchen.

As I've written above, Pfirsichbaeumchen is working on figuring this out.

If that wasn't clear: I am not Pfirsichbaeumchen.

If you think this is the only problem that requires my attention in Tatoeba, then please have a look at the current 285 other issues that are documented in our issue tracker:
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues

If you think the Kabyle flag issue is more important than all of these 285 issues, then please take a moment and think of how selfish that is...

idirsadouni idirsadouni August 31, 2019 August 31, 2019 at 10:47:34 PM UTC link Permalink

Hello, I'm from Kabylia and I confirm that this flag is a regional Flag of our region and doesn't belong to any movement.

BakirHamou BakirHamou September 11, 2019 September 11, 2019 at 4:29:07 PM UTC link Permalink

Ferhat Mhenni ne me représente pas comme il ne représenta pas les centaines de milliers kabyles qui mabnifeste chaque vendredi dans les grandes villes de Kabylie.

BakirHamou BakirHamou September 11, 2019, edited September 11, 2019 September 11, 2019 at 4:29:22 PM UTC, edited September 11, 2019 at 4:30:10 PM UTC link Permalink

Ferhat Mhenni ne me représente pas comme il ne représenta pas les centaines de milliers kabyles qui manifeste chaque vendredi dans les grandes villes de Kabylie.

TRANG TRANG September 22, 2019 September 22, 2019 at 10:35:38 PM UTC link Permalink

Just for reference, in case someone stumbles upon these comments, the discussion regarding the flag is taking place on the Wall:

https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/sh...#message_32663

Anyone who wishes to express their opinion on the flag topic should use the Wall.

Any new comments here should be about the sentence itself, nothing else.

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Sentence text

License: CC BY 2.0 FR

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This sentence is original and was not derived from translation.

To those who don't know him, Ferhat Mehenni is a sweet and charming man, but to the Kabyles who truly know him, he's a radical separatist, a racist, an Islamophobe and a hatemonger.

added by Amastan, August 27, 2019

license chosen by Amastan, August 27, 2019

To those who don't know him, Mennad Bakir is a sweet and charming man.

edited by TatoebaAdmins, August 29, 2019