clear
{{language.name}} No language found.
swap_horiz
{{language.name}} No language found.
search

Wall (5091 threads)

keyboard_arrow_left 1234567...510
CK
CK
11 hours ago - 10 hours ago
Kabyle has passed French and Portuguese and is now 4th on the list that shows the "Number of sentences with audio by language".

See the right side of this page.

https://tatoeba.org/eng/audio/index/kab
hide replies
Grendayzer
10 hours ago
Llah ibarek, xemsa f ɛinin lḥessadin. Mazal ṣṣut-is ad yebbeɛzeq.
Meksems
6 hours ago
That makes me happy. 😀
Nice job.
Thanks to everyone who's contributing.
SAmiri
6 hours ago
Well, good new, we are working to be the first in both audio and total sentences.
Igider
2 hours ago
It sounds good, glad to see and hear that!
Congratutations for all of you!
alemfarid
an hour ago
I'm very Happy. waw
Sifaks
an hour ago
Congratulation to all of you and keep the good work!
Your contributions are very valuable, especially for those like me who need to improve their pronunciation. :)
Almonds812
3 days ago
In the russian dictionary app why isnt there a flashcards place like all the other apps
hide replies
AlanF_US
yesterday
It's not clear which apps you're talking about. Could you please explain?
TRANG
21 hours ago
Please be aware that we are not in charge of other apps that use our data. We are not the developers of any Russian dictionary app. For your question you need to contact the developers of this app.
CK
CK
yesterday
** Updated **

Tatoeba.org Native Speakers with Native Language Sentences

http://bit.ly/nativespeakers

We now have 5,419,834 native-speaker sentences by 5,004 identified native speakers.
125 languages have identified native speakers.
MessDjaaf
6 days ago
Today, I'm going to open a discussion that can be interesting for both linguists and ordinary people who love languages. The discussion will focus on the lexical affinities observed between the different languages of the world. The question that arises is: are these words part of the common vocabulary that refers to a common language of humanity, or are they just loan words resulted from migrations and invasions / colonisation?

EXAMPLES :

- Berber (tagarfa) – Arabic (غراب) – English (crow) – French (corbeau) – Japanese (カラス)
Notice now the roots of the above words written in simplified phonetic alphabet:
/GRF – ƔRB – KRW – KRB - KRS/

- Arabic (أرض) – Hebrew (אָרֶץ) – English (earth) – German (erde)
Roots : /ARḌ – ARŢ – ERṮ - ERD/

- Berber (aberkan) – English (black)
Roots: /BRK – BLK/
“an” is the mark (suffix) of an adjective in Kabyle.

- Berber (it) – English (it) – German (es)
Roots: /T – T – S/
Notice the resemblance between these sentences: “ečč-it” – “eat it” – “iβ es”.

- Berber-Touareg (awatay) – Kichwa (wata), which means “year”.
Roots: /WTY – WT/

- English (brother) – Persan (برادر) – Serbe (брате) – Ozbek (birodar)
Roots: BRḎR – BRDR – BRT – BRDR/

(...)

With in-depth research, one can discover many more examples within languages classified by linguists in different language families. Does not this demonstrate that, like man, all the languages of the world came from one mother-language (proto-language)?
hide replies
OsoHombre
6 days ago
Very interesting, indeed. Thank you for the examples. If you are doing research on that, this book could help you a lot:

Saul Levin - Semitic and Indo-European
https://books.google.dz/books/a...MC&redir_esc=y

I read it in 2000 and I found many more examples about words like this. I am sure that there is an updated version of the book. I really recommend it for you.

This website could also help you as far as English is concerned:
https://www.etymonline.com/

Some words just have interesting etymologies.
hide replies
MessDjaaf
5 days ago
Thank you for the links you suggested to me. I am eager to discover the treasure I am looking for.
cueyayotl
5 days ago - 5 days ago
I'm a big fan of the site The Tower of Babel, by Sergei Starostin, where he has a huge database of such potential cognates across language families, as a supporter of the Nostratic Hypothesis.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bi...?flags=eygtnnl

In fact he has that 'brother' from your example above can be reconstructed to *pVrV in Proto-Borean and to *berV in Proto-Nostratic (possibly meaning 'child' or 'to bear'). Just click on the + sign next to the language families to see how it could have diverged between the language families Proto-Borean would break into. It seems to have been *barar in Proto-Berber, and according to the book Language Planning and Policy in Africa by Richard B. Baldauf, Robert B. Kaplan, the Tamasheq word for 'son' IS 'barar'.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bi...31&root=config

I could get lost for hours on that site!
hide replies
Amastan
5 days ago
I have know this website since a long time. It sometimes helps me with Amazigh etymologies.

MessDjaaf should also read more about the Nostratic languages:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostratic_languages

I think that with its millions of example sentences, Tatoeba would some day help comparative linguists a lot in the field of establishing links between languages that are said to be close but had few studies carried out on them to demonstrate this.

Cueyayotl: I have always been curious to know how much Khanty and Mansi are close to Hungarian. If we could get Khanty and Mansi speakers to participate to this website, we could offer linguists much richer corpora to demonstrate beyond any doubt (to the most skeptical people) that Hungarian is close to these two languages spoken in Siberia :-)
MessDjaaf
5 days ago - 5 days ago
Indeed, the word "barar" still exists in Touareg with the meaning of "son". It sounds even like the Dutch word "broer", which also links to the Hebrew "bar" (son), etc.
soliloquist
5 days ago
As a linguist, what is your opinion on this Hungarian-Turkish pair? Is it just borrowed words?

#3506165
hide replies
Amastan
5 days ago
I wish we could have extensive corpora of the Khanty, Mansi, Hungarian and Turkic languages. Some Hungarians are particularly interested in a possible genetic connection between Hungarian and Turkic languages.

I am actively looking for Khanty and Mansi speakers who could join Tatoeba and contribute in their respective languages. Some Hungarians are helping me.
hide replies
cueyayotl
5 days ago
Some thousand sentences in each of the Uralic and Altaic languages would be a dream come true. Y-chromosome and mitochondrial migration maps all show a genetic connection between the two groups of people and evidence of a split somewhere in Mongolia or bordering Russia with the Uralic peoples heading west, and the Altaic peoples heading east (see: https://natgeoeducationblog.fil...aplogroups.png and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N-M231). Clearly the group spoke some form of language just before that split, which would be an ancestor of both the Uralic and Altaic language families.
cueyayotl
5 days ago
This one, sadly, is a borrowing. The Hungarian 'zseb' comes from Ottoman Turkish 'جیب' (cep), borrowed from Persian 'جیب' (jib), which in turn comes from the Arabic 'جَيْب' (jayb). The Arabic word was borrowed into Geez 'ገይብ' (gäyb), and the Persian word into Georgian 'ჯიბე' (ǯibe), Hindi: जेब (jeb), among others. The Ottoman Turkish borrowed word was in turn borrowed into Armenian 'ջեբ' (ǰeb), Bulgarian 'джоб' (džob), Greek 'τσέπη' (tsépi), Serbo-Croatian 'џеп' (džep), among others.
hide replies
soliloquist
5 days ago
Wow, looks like it's a highly contagious word. :-)

The sentences have more similarities, though.

"Zsebemben sok kicsi alma van."
"Cebimde çok küçük elma var."

hide replies
cueyayotl
5 days ago
Oops, I only saw the bottom Hungarian sentence!
All of the words of the Hungarian sentence: "Zsebemben sok kicsi alma van." are of Turkic origin (though borrowed from different Turkic languages), EXCEPT 'van', which The Tower of Babel claims to be from Proto-Nostratic *woɣlV > Proto-Altaic *ṑlu (which became 'var' in Turkish) and Proto-Uralic *wole- (which became 'van' in Hungarian).
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bi...42&root=config
It also gives *wVʕ/ɣl as a Proto-Afroasiatic descendant, which has become 'yella' in Kabyle.
It's quite possible that Turkish 'var', Hungarian 'van' and Kabyle 'yella' directly descended from the same word.
hide replies
soliloquist
4 days ago
That's really interesting. Thank you.
cueyayotl
4 days ago
Analyzing your other examples:
Crow: Yes. They may have all come from the same origin (Proto-Nostratic *KVrV > Proto-Indo-European *ḱorh₂wós, Proto-Afroasiatic *ɣVrVb-, Proto-Altaic *ki̯ăro).
Earth: Maybe. A couple linguists give Proto-Nostratic *ʔer-a (“earth, ground”) (Bomhard 2015) or *ʔarV̄ (“earth, land, place”) (Dolgopolsky) > Proto-Indo-European *h₁er- and Proto-Afro-Asiatic *ʔ[e]r-t͜ɬ'
Black: No relation. The English word comes from *bʰleg- (to burn or shine), and the Berber word may come from the color of something seen in nature (bark of tree, color of seed, etc.)
It: pure coincidence.
Year: pure coincidence.

One I've always found interesting is Proto-Boreal *mVnV (for 'man') and *kVnV (for 'woman')
hide replies
OsoHombre
3 days ago
*kVnV

Do you think 'queen' is related to this root?
hide replies
cueyayotl
3 days ago
I do. As I do of Arabic 'kannat', a woman who marries your wife's brother.
MessDjaaf
3 days ago
I don't believe too much in coincidence. For me, every lexical correspondence can be explained scientifically ... providing that we are objective enough so as not to avoid an explanation that contradicts the truth that our beliefs want to mask. ... to be developed later
hide replies
Amastan
3 days ago
Ignacio Reyes (who is worked on a Guanche [Canarian Berber] dictionary)

https://www.scribd.com/document...o-insuloamaziq

MessDjaaf: He is one of the most brilliant Amazigh-language etymologies. He once told me that when 2 lexical roots from 2 different languages have more than 1 consonant in common, it's very unlikely that this is a coincidence. However, you also need to be sure of the etymologies of the roots. For example, "tawwurt" (which is sometimes pronounced [tappurt] by the Kabyle women of some regions) obviously neither comes from French nor from Latin. This is a good example of a coincidence.
hide replies
MessDjaaf
yesterday - yesterday
That's the question I asked in my introduction. I said "are these words part of the common vocabulary that refers to a common language of humanity, or are they just loanwords resulted from migrations and invasions / colonisation? "

For the word "tawwurt", it comes from the verb "war" attested in Touareg with the meaning of "open", contrarily to the Kabyle verb "err" that means "shut". In Latin languages, the words "porte / porta" seem to be at the first view isolates - i.e. without verb form - which puts them normally in the list of loanwords.

I said NORMALLY, because a new question arises: how can so civilised Romans borrow the name of the door from people - Berbers - who were said to be mostly nomades and without advanced scriptual tradition?

In fact, the French & Italian "porte / porta", whose verb forms are "ouvrir / aprire", came from the Latin noun "apertum". The roots /VR/ & /PR/ of the French & Italian verbs explain the roots /WR/ & /R/ of the Touareg & Kabyle verbs. And the Latin word "apertum" explains the Northern Amazigh words "tawwurt, tabburt, taggurt, tappurt".

My conclusion is that this is NOT a mere coincidence, but rather a lexical loan case. And in this case, it is the Berber language that borrowed from Latin.
cueyayotl
3 days ago
Every lexical correspondence CAN be explained scientifically: languages have a large number of morphemes, and a limited number of phonemes, so certain combinations are inevitably going to match between languages. To help determine if a pair of words are truly cognates (come from the same origin), we MUST look at the languages they descended from, as well as sister languages and dialects. If, for example, you see a word in Arabic that looks like a word in Spanish (and has the same or similar meaning), but that word is absent in Latin, Proto-Italic or Proto-Indo-European, then the Spanish and Arabic words cannot be cognates, and the word was either borrowed into Spanish, or was coined after.

We must be careful of this: I personally worked for a Korean company that seeks to prove that Homo Sapiens Sapiens evolved on Korean land, and that all of humanity descends from an ancient Korean civilization (that somehow has eluded all the words archaeologists and historians, and grows in size every year they do a presentation on it), and one of their tools is linguistic evidence that other languages descended from 'Ancient Korean', by doing what? By finding words that sound similar and have similar meaning; they did this with Sumerian, Ancient Greek, Latin and Sanskrit. But all they came up with are precisely coincidences: words that had no equivalent in Proto-Indo-European or other Indo-European languages... and as for Sumerian, all of their entries were incorrect Sumerian words, or words that had other meanings than they claimed. It IS a shame, because there are a lot of reconstructed Proto-Nostratic words that evolved similarly between all of Ancient Greek, Latin, Sanskrit, and Old/Middle/Modern Korean.
Impersonator
3 days ago
> I don't believe too much in coincidence.

Etymology is not about ’belief’. The probability of coincidences is quite high.

There is a common Birthday Paradox: if there are 25 people in the room, they have >50% chances that two of them will have same birthday. It seems strange, but actually coincidences are mathematically common. Same for words: random coincidences are very probable. It’s not belief, you can scientifically calculate the number. (It will depend on the number of sounds in two languages and things like that, but it’s very probable)

That’s why research in etymology doesn’t just look at word similarity. It looks at systematic sound changes (we can’t just substitute sounds, we need find other instances of these sounds substituted), known word history (when this word was first attested?), morphological features (is this word combined of local word-parts, or does it look foreign?)
hide replies
deniko
2 days ago
> if there are 25 people in the room, they have >50% chances that two of them will have same birthday.

Yep, I like this one too. The probability actually reaches 50% with 23 persons, and in a group of 70 people the chance of at least two of them sharing a birthday is 99.9%

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem
CK
CK
2 days ago - 12 hours ago
[message removed by CK since it no longer applies]
hide replies
belkacem77
2 days ago
Nice
alemfarid
2 days ago
thanks for the information
belkacem77
2 days ago - 2 days ago
I'm looking to extract direct and indirect translations of Kabyle <-> Hebrew, Kabyle <-> English and Kabyle <->French. Does someone know if the links file http://downloads.tatoeba.org/exports/links.tar.bz2 contains direct and indirect links or only direct links (direct translations)

Thanks.
____________________
hide replies
AlanF_US
2 days ago
It contains direct links only.
hide replies
belkacem77
2 days ago
Thanks AlanF_US.
I have to write a script then.
hide replies
AlanF_US
2 days ago
Many indirect links will be incorrect translations, so it may not make sense for you to use them.
hide replies
belkacem77
2 days ago - 2 days ago
Yes I know the phenomena of cascading translation effect .the idea is to extract these indirect translations and expose them to people to work on them.

I'm also going to suggest a feature to Tatoeba developpers community about these indirect translations. It's easy to work on them within a special view.
cueyayotl
7 days ago
ASIDE FROM KABYLE - does anyone have any issue with any other of our language icons? User sabretou has mentioned to me that 2 Indian languages, Bodo and Maithili should have their language icons changed as well – perhaps to an Indian flag with ISO 639-3 code on the side. We don't have any active Bodo or Maithili users now, so I will make the call to change their icons, unless someone here has a rational objection.

Any other suggestions for changes of language icons (flags)?
hide replies
sabretou
7 days ago
The icons for Amharic and Hawaiian look a little squashed at present, so I've created updated versions:

https://image.ibb.co/frYBjU/amharic.jpg
https://image.ibb.co/kR7qB9/hawaiian.jpg

The icon for Guarani was assymetrical, so I've centred it: https://image.ibb.co/nuCRJp/guarani.jpg

Also, keeping with the updates to Latin and Ancient Greek, I think the icon for Sanskrit could be beautified as well. I don't have any ideas on how to proceed with that, however.

The icons for Malayalam, Mohawk and Tamil *may* need to be changed, as I suspect they may not be properly representative. Separately, the icon of Telugu could perhaps be beautified. I have been waiting for active native speakers of these languages to discuss this with them.
hide replies
cueyayotl
6 days ago
Ah, you're right; I'll take your versions of Guarani and Amharic, but I think that the Hawaiian flag is actually 1:2 proportion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Hawaii), but it definitely looks like it needs to be changed.
None of our active users ever complained about Malayalam, Mohawk, or Tamil, but definitely, if you can show us precisely why they should be changed, we will change them.
As for flag beautification, let us know if you have any ideas – I've beautified a few myself, and I'm sure many of our flags could use a touch-up.
hide replies
sabretou
6 days ago - 6 days ago
Malayalam: I have a suspicion that the flag represents the seal of Travancore, as opposed to the state of Kerala. They're very similar, so it's hard to tell.

Mohawk: This flag represents an organisation, The Mohawk Warrior Society. It is possible that not all Mohawk contributors will accept this flag. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M...arrior_Society

Tamil: The last I checked, years ago, this was the flag of some informal international organisation promoting the Tamil language. It doesn't seem ideal, particularly given that (to my observation), Tamil flags typically involve red, black, and white.

Telugu: The present flag is plain, and the font is squashed. While we could create a non-squashed version of the flag, perhaps we can also wait for a native speaker to suggest any appropriate colours or symbols.

Like I said, each of these cases would have to be discussed with native speakers, as I don't think I'm entirely qualified to comment on these.
danepo
7 days ago - 5 days ago
It's difficult to distinguish between the two Norwegian Icons (NN and NB).
soliloquist
6 days ago - 6 days ago
I think the icon for Old Turkish is a bit low contrast. It's actually a stone inscription. I liked its authenticity, though, but its visibility isn't so good.

Here's a more visible alternative with the same script.

https://prnt.sc/l3r4vk

Please consider.

Edit: I've added another version of the first flag. This one has smaller letter spacing. It might look better when shrinked.

http://prntscr.com/l3u81e


This flag is also popular among the Old Turkish enthusiasts.

http://thefutureofeuropes.wikia...anate_flag.png

We don't exactly know how the real flag of Turkic Khaganate looked like, but we know that their totem was a wolf.

The reason behind turquoise background is that the word turquoise comes from Turk.
hide replies
sabretou
5 days ago - 5 days ago
I've resized the flags to match Tatoeba's format. Here's how they look:

1: https://image.ibb.co/es0Lyp/oldturkish1.jpg
2: https://image.ibb.co/mB3vW9/oldturkish2.jpg
3: https://image.ibb.co/i7PPPU/oldturkish3.jpg

I think 1 looks the clearest.
hide replies
OsoHombre
5 days ago
The third one isn't good. Just a small green splinter on a blue background. 1 and 2 are much better.

Aiji
5 days ago
I agree with you. And with OsoHombre.
soliloquist
5 days ago
Thank you very much. 1 is my first choice as well.
hide replies
cueyayotl
5 days ago
Well, I'm sad to see my language icon for Old Turkish go, but if that's what everyone wants, it'll have to be so.

So, I'll put it up for vote:
Keep Original or use No.1?
hide replies
sabretou
5 days ago
Use No.1, it's cleaner and has better contrast.
OsoHombre
5 days ago
cueyayotl

How are you going to let us know about your final decision regarding the Berber/Kabyle flag?

cueyayotl
6 days ago - 6 days ago
Latin and Ancient Greek:
User alexmarcelo suggested in a wall post some weeks ago that our language icons for Latin and Ancient Greek be changed, and it seems we did not finish voting for new icons (or to keep the old ones). I have compiled a list of potential icons for us to vote on (with no.1 being the originals)
https://user-images.githubuserc...3928243578.png

The original wall post is here: (https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/sh...message_29541)

Any new suggestions are of course welcome.
sharptoothed
7 days ago
** Stats & Graphs **

Tatoeba Stats, Graphs & Charts have been updated:
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com/allstats/
hide replies
Guybrush88
7 days ago
thank you :)
Aiji
6 days ago
Thank you for the stats
alemfarid
6 days ago
Thank you.
hide replies
sharptoothed
6 days ago
You're welcome. :-)
belkacem77
6 days ago
Sounds good for the kab corpus
AlanF_US
7 days ago
As Trang has said, the arguments over Berber and Kabyle have gotten so out of control that they are interfering with the ability of community members to talk about anything else. For the time being, if I see anyone other than an administrator bringing up the subject on the Wall, I will suspend their account. Their sentences will be preserved, but they will be unable to post additional sentences, or comments.
hide replies
OsoHombre
7 days ago
Whew! Thank you!
keyboard_arrow_left 1234567...510