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Wall (5372 threads)
3 hours ago
I believe our website is quite hard to understand and very confusing for new users. I believe that the lack of usability in Tatoeba is a major problem because if we don’t do anything about it:
1) our community will keep being "small" because most news members won’t stick around, except the most motivated/tech-savvy of them.
2) our community will lack diversity and openness because it will keep being centered around power-users
I think some of the reasons Tatoeba lacks usability include:
1) we never had any UX designer to help us out
2) we didn’t cared that much
3) when we actually cared, we designed by committee, which is very wrong (look up "ux design by committee" on a search engine if want to know why, e.g. https://www.justinmind.com/blog...-by-committee/ )
In order to tentatively address this problem, I’ve performed a first usability test on Tatoeba. If you’re not familiar with usability tests, you can read the introduction of this article https://www.experienceux.co.uk/...ility-testing/
With the permission of the tested user, I am publishing a raw report of the test on the wiki: https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...show/ux-test-1
By publishing this report, my intention is NOT to ask for solutions to the problems shown by the test, because this would be doing design by committee again. Instead, my intention is to:
1) "prove" how terrible our usability level is, if anyone still had doubts
2) bring the topic of usability that I’ve seldom seen on the Wall
3) encourage you to do more usability tests (it’s fun!) and send them to team@tatoeba.org, or publish them on the wiki if the user is okay with that
4) discuss about ways to avoid design by committee and improve our designing process for existing and future things
Some further reading I’d like to share (French) http://www.maiwann.net/blog/des...n-collaborait/
1) our community will keep being "small" because most news members won’t stick around, except the most motivated/tech-savvy of them.
2) our community will lack diversity and openness because it will keep being centered around power-users
I think some of the reasons Tatoeba lacks usability include:
1) we never had any UX designer to help us out
2) we didn’t cared that much
3) when we actually cared, we designed by committee, which is very wrong (look up "ux design by committee" on a search engine if want to know why, e.g. https://www.justinmind.com/blog...-by-committee/ )
In order to tentatively address this problem, I’ve performed a first usability test on Tatoeba. If you’re not familiar with usability tests, you can read the introduction of this article https://www.experienceux.co.uk/...ility-testing/
With the permission of the tested user, I am publishing a raw report of the test on the wiki: https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...show/ux-test-1
By publishing this report, my intention is NOT to ask for solutions to the problems shown by the test, because this would be doing design by committee again. Instead, my intention is to:
1) "prove" how terrible our usability level is, if anyone still had doubts
2) bring the topic of usability that I’ve seldom seen on the Wall
3) encourage you to do more usability tests (it’s fun!) and send them to team@tatoeba.org, or publish them on the wiki if the user is okay with that
4) discuss about ways to avoid design by committee and improve our designing process for existing and future things
Some further reading I’d like to share (French) http://www.maiwann.net/blog/des...n-collaborait/
3 hours ago
This is damning, and explains why it's hard to get new users even by trying to promote the site, especially in languages with very small numbers of speakers or mostly-older speaker communities.
You seem to be an expert on UX design? I'm not a developer, but we ought to defer to whoever is knowledgable in this area. User experience and accessibility should be the most important things for any site, especially one like this.
You seem to be an expert on UX design? I'm not a developer, but we ought to defer to whoever is knowledgable in this area. User experience and accessibility should be the most important things for any site, especially one like this.
3 hours ago
Thank you shekitten, I appreciate your compassion!
I’m no UX design expert. I’m a developer and I contribute code on Tatoeba. I just happen to become more and more aware of UX problems these days.
I’m no UX design expert. I’m a developer and I contribute code on Tatoeba. I just happen to become more and more aware of UX problems these days.
yesterday - yesterday
The asterisk notation used in searches has become less useful, in my opinion. When searching for "bir daha *mak" from Turkish to English, I get results like:
Bir daha orada yaşamak istemiyor.
Onu bir daha hiç yapmak istemiyorum.
If I had wanted an intervening word, I would have searched for "bir daha * *mak"! But that's not what I want. I want specifically results, if any, like:
...bir daha almak...
...bir daha yapmak...
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...rom=tur&to=eng
Bir daha orada yaşamak istemiyor.
Onu bir daha hiç yapmak istemiyorum.
If I had wanted an intervening word, I would have searched for "bir daha * *mak"! But that's not what I want. I want specifically results, if any, like:
...bir daha almak...
...bir daha yapmak...
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...rom=tur&to=eng
yesterday - yesterday
You can achieve what you want by using the proximity search operator, ~. The following search:
"bir daha *mak"~1
will search for the phrase "bir daha" separated from a word ending with "mak" by up to, but not including, 1 word. (In other words, there must be 0 words separating them.) See this link:
https://docs.manticoresearch.co...ry_syntax.html
I also updated our wiki page:
https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...ow/text-search
"bir daha *mak"~1
will search for the phrase "bir daha" separated from a word ending with "mak" by up to, but not including, 1 word. (In other words, there must be 0 words separating them.) See this link:
https://docs.manticoresearch.co...ry_syntax.html
I also updated our wiki page:
https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...ow/text-search
yesterday
Wow. I guess this is a new feature. Thanks.
yesterday
You're welcome. You could also do this search:
bir NEAR/1 daha NEAR/1 *mak
I'm not sure it makes sense to describe the NEAR operator on the wiki page, but you can find a description here:
https://docs.manticoresearch.co...ry_syntax.html
bir NEAR/1 daha NEAR/1 *mak
I'm not sure it makes sense to describe the NEAR operator on the wiki page, but you can find a description here:
https://docs.manticoresearch.co...ry_syntax.html
23 hours ago
It's pretty unintuitive, no? A more regexp-like notation would have been better. Like...
"bir daha *mak" (no intervening words)
Matches: "bir daha yapmak"
"bir* daha *mak" (no intervening words)
Matches: "biraz daha çalışmak"
"bir daha *{2} *mak" (up to two intervening words)
Matches:
"bir daha yapmak"
"bir daha araba kullanmak"
"bir daha yeni araba kullanmak"
"bir daha *{1} *m[a|e]k" (up to one intervening word and matching *mak or *mek)
Matches:
"bir daha yapmak"
"bir daha söylemek"
"bir daha araba kullanmak"
"bir daha araba sürmek"
"bir daha *mak" (no intervening words)
Matches: "bir daha yapmak"
"bir* daha *mak" (no intervening words)
Matches: "biraz daha çalışmak"
"bir daha *{2} *mak" (up to two intervening words)
Matches:
"bir daha yapmak"
"bir daha araba kullanmak"
"bir daha yeni araba kullanmak"
"bir daha *{1} *m[a|e]k" (up to one intervening word and matching *mak or *mek)
Matches:
"bir daha yapmak"
"bir daha söylemek"
"bir daha araba kullanmak"
"bir daha araba sürmek"
4 hours ago
That syntax would work fine for me, since I'm familiar with regular expressions, but perhaps the Sphinx/Manticore team decided it would be difficult for people who weren't. Or perhaps they had other constraints.
yesterday
** Stats - 2019-06-15 - Native Speaker Sentence Counts **
http://tatoeba.byethost3.com/stats-190615.html
You can click the number to translate the native-language contributions of each member.
http://tatoeba.byethost3.com/stats-190615.html
You can click the number to translate the native-language contributions of each member.
13 hours ago - 13 hours ago
** Translating and Studying Sentences by Tatoeba Project Native Speakers **
http://tatoeba.byethost3.com/nativespeakers/
I spent a little time today creating a tool to help you study or translate sentences by native speakers.
Translating sentences by native speakers into your own native language helps us get bilingual pairs with both sentences written by native speakers.
The sentences counts are based on the exported data from yesterday with the native speaker information coming from my list of native speakers.
http://tatoeba.byethost3.com/nativespeakers/
I spent a little time today creating a tool to help you study or translate sentences by native speakers.
Translating sentences by native speakers into your own native language helps us get bilingual pairs with both sentences written by native speakers.
The sentences counts are based on the exported data from yesterday with the native speaker information coming from my list of native speakers.
2019-04-05 03:01
2019-04-20 17:19
Great!
:)
:)
11 days ago
In the last 2 months we have added over 22,300 audio files.
https://tatoeba.org/eng/audio/index
Sentences with audio (total 577,944)
You can see which member's audio file lists have had changes recently with this search.
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...direction:desc
However, in some of the lists, editing has taken place and not additions of new audio files.
https://tatoeba.org/eng/audio/index
Sentences with audio (total 577,944)
You can see which member's audio file lists have had changes recently with this search.
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...direction:desc
However, in some of the lists, editing has taken place and not additions of new audio files.
3 days ago
Why when I leave a comment, it's doubled?
Or it's just my mouse malfunctioning?
Or it's just my mouse malfunctioning?
6 days ago
** Stats & Graphs **
Tatoeba Stats, Graphs & Charts have been updated:
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com/allstats/
Tatoeba Stats, Graphs & Charts have been updated:
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com/allstats/
6 days ago
Great. Thanks.
5 days ago
thanks
13 days ago - 13 days ago
ON PLACEHOLDER NAMES, once again
A problem with placeholder names is that people start treating them as placeholders:
#7947998 Tom becomes Loša
#7860419 Tom/Mary becomes Mikita/Tania
The tag localized:Belarus has been invented for such 'placeholder replacement', but the problem is, the tag belongs to sentences, not to translations. If a sentence has many links, it won't be clear which one was un-localised.
As seveleu_dubrovnik puts it in his profile:
> I translate neutral names, social structures,
> grade names etc as neutral ones in the destination
> language's socio-linguistic landscape.
> E.g. "Police" → «міліцыя» [militsiya — this and further
> comments in square brackets are by Impersonator],
> "Tom / Mary" → «Юрась [Juraś], Лёха [Locha],
> Анатоль [Anatol] / Настасся [Nastaśsia], Света [Śvieta],
> Паліна [Palina] »,
> "Tom got an A" → be «Васіль атрымаў дзясятку» [Vasil got 10] /
> ru «Вася получил пятёрку» [Vasia got 5].
> I see such a localization as the only viable long-term way
> to enforce language equilibrium in a systematically polyglossic
> environment and as the only way to produce *natural* single
> language corpus.
_______
This approach is not new. People have been turning Tom into Foma and Mary into Masha for quite some time.
They are etymologically related, but in practice Tom and Foma are a pair like Yury and George — no one would replace one with another in real texts (except perhaps when discussing mideaeval or earlier history: Foma Akvinskiy = Thomas Aquinas; but then, most sentences about Tom are not about Thomas Aquinas and would sound quite strange if you try to imagine them in such a context).
The examples of Tom becoming Foma, and Mary becoming Masha, are too numerous, just type Фома or Маша in the search:
https://tatoeba.org/rus/sentenc...rom=und&to=und
https://tatoeba.org/rus/sentenc...rom=und&to=und
A problem with placeholder names is that people start treating them as placeholders:
#7947998 Tom becomes Loša
#7860419 Tom/Mary becomes Mikita/Tania
The tag localized:Belarus has been invented for such 'placeholder replacement', but the problem is, the tag belongs to sentences, not to translations. If a sentence has many links, it won't be clear which one was un-localised.
As seveleu_dubrovnik puts it in his profile:
> I translate neutral names, social structures,
> grade names etc as neutral ones in the destination
> language's socio-linguistic landscape.
> E.g. "Police" → «міліцыя» [militsiya — this and further
> comments in square brackets are by Impersonator],
> "Tom / Mary" → «Юрась [Juraś], Лёха [Locha],
> Анатоль [Anatol] / Настасся [Nastaśsia], Света [Śvieta],
> Паліна [Palina] »,
> "Tom got an A" → be «Васіль атрымаў дзясятку» [Vasil got 10] /
> ru «Вася получил пятёрку» [Vasia got 5].
> I see such a localization as the only viable long-term way
> to enforce language equilibrium in a systematically polyglossic
> environment and as the only way to produce *natural* single
> language corpus.
_______
This approach is not new. People have been turning Tom into Foma and Mary into Masha for quite some time.
They are etymologically related, but in practice Tom and Foma are a pair like Yury and George — no one would replace one with another in real texts (except perhaps when discussing mideaeval or earlier history: Foma Akvinskiy = Thomas Aquinas; but then, most sentences about Tom are not about Thomas Aquinas and would sound quite strange if you try to imagine them in such a context).
The examples of Tom becoming Foma, and Mary becoming Masha, are too numerous, just type Фома or Маша in the search:
https://tatoeba.org/rus/sentenc...rom=und&to=und
https://tatoeba.org/rus/sentenc...rom=und&to=und
13 days ago
Are you suggesting a particular best practice, or avoiding a certain behaviour?
13 days ago
I don't have a solution for it, sorry
Maybe we should acknowledge that different translation types exist, and find some way to mark them in Tatoeba? Maybe we need different link types ('direct translation', 'adapted') or link tags?
Maybe we should acknowledge that different translation types exist, and find some way to mark them in Tatoeba? Maybe we need different link types ('direct translation', 'adapted') or link tags?
13 days ago
We had a discussion about that with @seveleu_dubrovnik here:
#7857041
And he came up with an idea to tag translations where he substitutes "placeholder names" with localized Belorussian names with "localized:Belarus", which seems like a sound idea to me.
An example:
#7947998
In general, I'm pretty uncomfortable with translating Tom as Лёша or any other random but local name.
However, I do understand that in certain context this can be a valid or even desirable translation.
#7857041
And he came up with an idea to tag translations where he substitutes "placeholder names" with localized Belorussian names with "localized:Belarus", which seems like a sound idea to me.
An example:
#7947998
In general, I'm pretty uncomfortable with translating Tom as Лёша or any other random but local name.
However, I do understand that in certain context this can be a valid or even desirable translation.
10 days ago
> Maybe we should acknowledge that different translation types exist, and find some way to mark them in Tatoeba? Maybe we need different link types
I agree with this. Some users are in favor of using links for translations only, but in a linguistic sense, the definition of link is not restricted to translations. Synonymous sentences are semantically linked, too. Sentences with similar patterns are also logically linked. What could be linked and what couldn't is a bit relative and vague.
I think it would be more comfortable having different types of links: one for translations, one for synonymous or closely-related sentences in the same language, and one for sentences with similar patterns (or localized sentences like #7947998 ) in the same language. I'm not sure how all these categories could be shown at the same time without creating a visual chaos though. Maybe some filtering/hiding options or a tree view with collapsing/expanding feature might be necessary.
Here is a rough image of the idea.
https://prnt.sc/ny3d99
I agree with this. Some users are in favor of using links for translations only, but in a linguistic sense, the definition of link is not restricted to translations. Synonymous sentences are semantically linked, too. Sentences with similar patterns are also logically linked. What could be linked and what couldn't is a bit relative and vague.
I think it would be more comfortable having different types of links: one for translations, one for synonymous or closely-related sentences in the same language, and one for sentences with similar patterns (or localized sentences like #7947998 ) in the same language. I'm not sure how all these categories could be shown at the same time without creating a visual chaos though. Maybe some filtering/hiding options or a tree view with collapsing/expanding feature might be necessary.
Here is a rough image of the idea.
https://prnt.sc/ny3d99
11 days ago
Hello,
I'm not sure some of the options in advanced search are working as intended. The one I have in mind is the "exclude sentences" one.
I wanted sentences in Swedish without translations in French (any type of link). I received the sentence 1433364, that is indirectly linked to the English 511978, itself (directly) linked to the French 1742035.
Is it a bug, or because that a third-order link (link of a link of a link)?
Thanks!
I'm not sure some of the options in advanced search are working as intended. The one I have in mind is the "exclude sentences" one.
I wanted sentences in Swedish without translations in French (any type of link). I received the sentence 1433364, that is indirectly linked to the English 511978, itself (directly) linked to the French 1742035.
Is it a bug, or because that a third-order link (link of a link of a link)?
Thanks!
11 days ago
It’s because it’s a third-order link.