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Wall (5244 threads)

Leolaaziano
2 days ago
Dear all,

I am to raise an issue on GitHub. This message is to publish my intention:


Dear Administrator,

Greetings!

I am a user of Tatoeba. I enjoy the website and look forward to contributing to it. I believe that the idea behind the website is to connect more people in the world.

Recently, I have noticed that the language flag for Uyghur language is ![this](https://tatoeba.org/img/flags/uig.png?1549009988 ), which seemed truly terrifying to me. This symbol was the proposed flag for 'East Turkestan', which was a terrorist proto-state that not a country on Earth had ever recognised. It is NOT the flag of Xinjiang Province where most of the Uyghur people lived, nor a globally recognisable flag for the nation/language. This would have the same implication from using the flag of ISIS for the Arabic language.

I am afraid that using this symbol would hurt the feeling of many Chinese people, as well as Uyghur people who always wish peace on their homeland.

Therefore, I strongly advice you to change the flag, and if possible, to flags like ![this](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wi...yghurche.png ). It has more natural meanings and, more importantly, not biased.

Very Sincerely,

Leo
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TRANG
2 days ago
I'm back-referencing to the GitHub issue: https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1789

I'll have to ask for a little bit of patience as we are still working on fixing regressions from our code migration.

But Uyghur is not the only language in this situation. We also need to solve the flag issue for Kabyle, Tachawit and possibly other languages. Hopefully we can tackle this topic in March.
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sacredceltic
2 days ago
Magnifique exemple de génuflexion face à la pression de la RPC !
La définition chinoise de “terroriste” est : non approuvé par le Parti communiste chinois et la race Han, seule digne de commander les autres ethnies inférieures (selon leur définition, c’est à dire juste plus numériquement faible...) du territoire de la RPC.
C’est comme ça qu’ils ont interné toute la jeunesse ouïgour dans des camps de rééducation, comme ils font avec les Tibétains, quand ils ne frappent pas leurs moines à coups de crosse dans les lamasseries...
Le peuple ouïgour, comme le peuple tibétain, fait preuve d’un courage exemplaire face à une dictature sanguinaire, qui n’a rien à envier au nazisme. Il mérite le drapeau de son choix, pas celui imposé par son impitoyable oppresseur.
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Leolaaziano
2 days ago - yesterday
One could easily check from [Policy paper: Proscribed terrorist groups or organisations](https://assets.publishing.servi...oscription.pdf ), page 18.

It states clearly that **'East Turkistan' is a Terrorist Organisation**. This public policy paper is a public document by UK government, available on gov.uk.

> TIP has been banned by the UN and is also sanctioned by the USA under the Terrorist Exclusion list.

I am not exaggerating at all. They are friends of ISIS, they kill innocent people in Xinjiang, while most of the victims were Uyghurs.

I believe it is an 'authentic' voice of English-speaking countries as well as many other sovereigns in the world.
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Impersonator
yesterday
> It states clearly that **'East Turkistan' is a Terrorist Organisation**.

Actually, it doesn't. It says "East Turkestan Islamic Party" is a terrorist organisation. East Turkestan Islamic Party ≠ East Turkistan. In this name, 'East Turkestan' used as **an adjective**.

An adjective is *not* the same thing as the main noun it represents:

* Lisbon Oceanarium ≠ Lisbon
* East Turkestan Islamic Party ≠ East Turkestan

The adjective and the main noun refer to **different things**:

* Lisbon Oceanarium is for fish, Lisbon is not,
* East Turkestan Islamic Party is terroristic, East Turkestan is not.

shekitten
23 hours ago
Jes ja, kaj simile uzas la vorton ĉiuj registaroj. Laŭ mi oni eĉ ne uzu la vorton 'terorismo' en seriozaj diskutoj, ĉar ĝi nur ekzistas por silentigi subprematajn popolojn.
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Leolaaziano
2 days ago - 2 days ago
And, I shall tell you that I am with peaceful Uyghur people. I am learning Uzbek and Uyghur, and I am doing so to become a closer friend of them. I respect human rights, but not a racist.
porfiriy
yesterday
I am neither Uyghur nor Chinese but I have spent considerable time in the Uyghur homeland and am a speaker of Uyghur.

This is a sticky situation that has many layers and will most certainly leave no-one satisfied. It is *extremely* difficult to approach this issue without any bias, and I include myself in that judgement. Just wanted to get that out there.

The current flag for the Uyghur language is the flag of the First East Turkestan Republic - more detail here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...stan_Republic. I personally believe (NB, with my own personal biases in mind) that the original poster's conflation of the use of this flag with the principles of ISIS is wildly exaggerated. The ETR was founded in the wake of the political chaos that ensued when the governor of the region was assassinated and replaced by an incompetent official. It was formed in the wake of a populist rebellion that was highly motivated by the feeling that aggressive Sinicization policies were a threat to local Muslim identity.

To conflate today's ISIS with the ETR would be an anachronistic retconning of modern principles to the 1930s. Was there religious violence in the ETR, the imposition of Sharia law? Absolutely. But this violence truly is not very distinct when compared to other violent conflicts that were going all over in China at the time - the 1930s were pure chaos. The ETR may be better understood as simply one part of the political, cultural, and military boil that the whole area of China was undergoing.

Moreover, the logic really doesn't hold. The violence or moral indignation that a symbol may elicit in others really doesn't necessarily justify the removal of the symbol. After all, aren't their plenty of people who are morally outraged at the millions of people who died of starvation in the Great Leap Forward or were murdered in the Cultural Revolution, under the very flag that is used to represent Mandarin today? Aren't their plenty of righteously indignant Taiwanese Mandarin speakers who have claim to outrage at the PRC's flag representing Mandarin? This reasoning I'm putting forward here is deliberately flawed - an example of how outrage doesn't necessarily justify a removal.

The modern-day East Turkestan Islamic Movement is indeed a terrorist organization that uses a blue flag with the cresent and moon as well as the shahada written across the top. The first observation to make is that this flag is absolutely not the flag being used on Tatoeba. They draw from the same symbolism, but they are different. The co-opting of a symbol by a despised, despicable group does not necessarily delegitmize the symbol. After all, the ISIS flag has the shada - but so does the flag of Saudi Arabia and Iran. Should we kindly ask Saudi and Iranian embassies to remove their flag because of their offensive symbolism? Should Tatoeba change its current symbol for Persian? Going down this route really blurs the line between "evil terrorists" and "Muslims in general."

It is worth noting that the Uyghur flag, currently used by Tatoeba, has been adopted by the completely peaceful, non-terrorist Uyghur diaspora as a symbol of ethnic pride (see https://uyghuramerican.org/site...lm-Brown.jpg). Its often seen at protests in the West and in Turkey against the treatment of Uyghurs in Xinjiang, which has been quite bad of late (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09...on-camp.html). That being said, the flag is legitimately a *cultural*, if not political symbol of a large number of Uyghurs in the diaspora. Why the diaspora? The flag is illegal in Xinjiang. If you have one and display it, you will get in trouble, pronto. Basically, the answer to the question "does this flag legimately represent the linguistic community as far as Tatoeba is concerned" can't be answered because most Uyghurs on the planet could not even give a frank answer.

As others have pointed out, this situation is also difficult because of the use of the Tibetan flag for the Tibetan language on this site. The exact same principles apply to Tibet as to Xinjiang - an ethnic group with aspirations to nationhood that indeed was a separate nation at the time of the ETR, which eventually became a part of the PRC. The Tibetan flag is also banned in China and displaying it will get a Tibetan detained. It is used extensively in the Tibetan diaspora community and is the flag of the Tibetan government-in-exile in Dharamsala. I believe that most Chinese are less offended by the Tibetan flag because there is no "global Islamic terrorism" narrative that the Tibetans can be shoved into, and because there is this alternative Richard Gere-esque "peaceful, serene Buddhists" narrative that is easy to buy into for both Chinese and Westerners alike. As an interesting side note, there as an armed Tibetan rebellion in 1959 in which 2000 Chinese died, so if the original poster is offended by the questionable connections between the Uyghur flag and ISIS then he should be equally offended by the Tibetan flag as well.

Soliloquist, I see you made a good faith effort to get in touch with the Uyghur American Organization and the Uyghur Congress regarding the flag, motivated by the idea to get more Uyghurs into the picture. I can tell you before you even respond that two things will happen: first, both these organizations will answer affirmatively that the flag represents their community. As I said, the symbol has been adopted by the diaspora and many people in these organizations are people who deliberately fled China to escape perspecution. Second, Chinese users will not accept their answers as in China these organizations are depicted as US puppet/shadow organizations that are hell bent on the destruction of the PRC.

Okay, enough of that. I hope this information helps and contextualizes things. I believe I'm being accurate when I say that Tatoeba ultimately does not care about politics and only wants the flags to be representative of the linguistic community. What I add here is that when it comes to the Uyghurs, you can't separate politics from representativeness. There is a community of diaspora Uyghurs who will say this flag is theirs, and a much, much larger community of Uyghurs in China who have no say on the matter.

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soliloquist
16 hours ago
Thank you very much, porfiriy. You've summed it up nicely.
driini
yesterday
Using my lists. When I delete a sentence from a list: the number of sentences in this list is set to "0" (overview of my lists).
Only the number, the other sentences are still in the list.
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soliloquist
yesterday - 16 hours ago
Yes. Removing sentences from lists resets their numbers on 'All public lists' page. But they're still shown correctly on the lists' own pages.

Edit: It's fixed now.
cojiluc
2 days ago - 2 days ago
Is there an statistics on the percentage of English words of a widely used English dictionary (such as the Concise Oxford English Dictionary) covered by the sentences given in Tatoeba?
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CK
CK
2 days ago - 2 days ago
A more useful set of words to compare with would be the NGSL.
http://www.newgeneralservicelist.org/

See http://www.manythings.org/sentences/words/ for links to the Tatoeba Corpus. (Not updated recently, though.)

Or with graded reader level word lists.
http://study.aitech.ac.jp/tatoeba/ogte/

Here's something I put together that gives both NGSL and COCA rankings for a random selection of words with links to tatoeba.org.
http://study.aitech.ac.jp/tatoe.../families.html

This is similar, but a larger selection of words and only NGSL rankings.
http://study.aitech.ac.jp/tatoeba/random/
Ricardo14
4 days ago
In https://tatoeba.org/deu/tags/view_all/cebuano there's a string untranslated into German

http://prntscr.com/mmc1pr

It displays "Tags containing"
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Thanuir
4 days ago
I believe transifex https://www.transifex.com/tatoeba/tatoeba_website/ is the correct place to translate it, but I have never used it.
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Ricardo14
3 days ago
Yes, you're right. However, only native speakers can translate and German is not my native language :/
Pfirsichbaeumchen
3 days ago
Tatoeba steht jetzt wieder zu hundert Prozent in Deutsch zur Verfügung. (Tatoeba is once again one hundred percent available in German. Tatoeba denove estas disponebla centprocente en la germana lingvo.) 😊
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Ricardo14
3 days ago
Awesome!!!!
soliloquist
12 days ago
I have problems adding Ottoman Turkish sentences written in Latin script. The punctuation order gets corrupted and it looks weird. The system only works properly when using Arabic script with Ottoman Turkish.

Some languages are written in more than one script. Like Azerbaijani (Latin, Arabic and Cyrillic), Kurdish (Latin and Arabic) or Serbian (Latin and Cyrillic).

I guess there are Serbian sentences written in both Latin and Cyrillic scripts on Tatoeba. It isn't a problem when the script direction is same as in Serbian, but if the direction is different, it becomes difficult to use the script other than the 'default' one.

Can't something be done about it?
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soliloquist
11 days ago
#7771502

I've noticed that the 'other language' flag is direction-neutral. It allows both left-to-right and right-to-left scripts. So I think it should be possible to implement this to other languages that can be written in multiple scripts.
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sharris123
10 days ago
Also, it would be really helpful if simplified and traditional Chinese could be somehow separated. A lot of otherwise simple sentences take me a while to translate because I have to change it to simplified chinese on google translate first. Just some kind of tag in advanced search, or a separate category?
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soliloquist
9 days ago
That's a different issue, but I agree. It would be useful. When studying a language that can be written in multiple scripts, one may need to view sentences written only in a particular script like Chinese sentences written in traditional Chinese or Berber sentences written in the Tifinagh script. Currently, it's not possible to separate/filter sentences in such a way.
CK
CK
9 days ago
What exactly does the "AB" icon do?
I thought it converted between the 2 and added in Pinyin.
TRANG
5 days ago
Actually we used to automatically generate the sentences in the other script for Chinese.
Like this sentence for instance: https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/7776103

If the sentence is in simplified, it would have the traditional version in grey. If it was in traditional, it would have the simplified version in great.

I don't think we've ever decide to remove this feature so it must have broken at some point...
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sharris123
5 days ago
Hm, when I look up sentences it appears for a couple but not for most. Like maybe one or two out of every ten sentences?
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TRANG
4 days ago
Yea I'm not sure what some have it and some not. But I know for sure that we used to have it on all Chinese sentences, automatically generated.
gillux
4 days ago
As you pointed out, the current implementation assumes that Ottoman Turkish is written right-to-left using Arabic script.

I had a look at the English Wikipedia article about the Ottoman Turkish language, and I am a bit confused because it says that this language switched to the Latin script as it evolved into modern Turkish. Can you elaborate about the contemporary use of Arabic vs. Latin to write Ottoman Turkish?

One way to quickly solve the display problem is to set the direction of Ottoman Turkish to "auto". Another, much more complex way is to implement multiple script support in and auto-convert between, but only if it's worth, that is to say there are actually native speakers using Latin and Arabic, we want to be able find sentences written in Arabic by the searching in Latin and vice-versa, the conversion can be partly or fully automated, etc.

As you found out, the direction of sentences of "unknown" language is set to automatic. That said, this is not a reason to set the language of your Ottoman Turkish sentences written in Latin script to "unknown", just because they look better. I strongly discourage you from doing this because then these sentences are excluded from the Ottoman Turkish corpus, they won't show up in searches and statistics, which is preventing contributors/learners of Ottoman Turkish from finding them. What's worse, since *only you* know their actual language, if for some reason you forget about them or stop contributing, these sentences will never be assigned to the correct language and will be definitely lost.
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soliloquist
4 days ago
>I had a look at the English Wikipedia article about the Ottoman Turkish language, and I am a bit confused because it says that this language switched to the Latin script as it evolved into modern Turkish. Can you elaborate about the contemporary use of Arabic vs. Latin to write Ottoman Turkish?

Thanks for your reply, gillux. Have you seen the GitHub issue? I tried to explain this there. Also, there are some other languages being affected from this issue.

https://github.com/Tatoeba/tato...ment-463754887

The Turkish language reform consists of a script reform and replacing of loanwords. They are different things. Allowing Ottoman Turkish sentences in the Latin script will increase contributions in the old language and its readability. Currently, almost all 'Ottoman Turkish' sentences on Tatoeba are simply transliterations of modern Turkish into the Arabic script. They're not wrong, but they don't truly reflect the old language. If one looked here to compare Ottoman Turkish and modern Turkish, they would assume that the only difference is the alphabet.


>One way to quickly solve the display problem is to set the direction of Ottoman Turkish to "auto".

This sounds good to me. If doing it would display sentences in both Arabic and Latin scripts correctly and wouldn't cause any unintended consequences, why not?


> I strongly discourage you from doing this because then these sentences are excluded from the Ottoman Turkish corpus, they won't show up in searches and statistics

I created only one pair set as 'unknown' for demonstration. I'm adding romanized Ottoman Turkish sentences to Turkish corpus for now. I will change them back to Ottoman Turkish once a solution is found.
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gillux
4 days ago
> Have you seen the GitHub issue?

Sorry, I didn’t. I commented there too.

> Allowing Ottoman Turkish sentences in the Latin script will increase contributions in the old language and its readability.

I see. Let me try to understand the situation. Can you tell me if the following is correct?
1. Ottoman Turkish is not a living language any more (there are no native speakers alive).
2. Native speakers of Ottoman Turkish used the Arabic script only.
3. Most of the people who understand Ottoman Turkish are native speakers of Turkish.
4. Native speakers of Turkish are unfamiliar with the Arabic script.

If that is correct, I believe it makes sense to convert Ottoman Turkish from Arabic to Latin, but not the other way around, because Latin not is no more than a reading aid for native speakers of Turkish. In other words, I think all Ottoman Turkish sentences should stay in Arabic only, while we only attach Latin as a transcription of them.

> I created only one pair set as 'unknown' for demonstration.

I see. Next time, please use https://dev.tatoeba.org/ instead for demonstration purposes.
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soliloquist
3 days ago
Yes, they're all correct, gillux. Even if there were some very old people using Ottoman Turkish as the primary language today, they, too, would use the Latin script to be understood.

I'm not asking Ottoman Turkish sentences to be converted to Latin anyway. If one wants to add sentences in the Arabic script, it's perfectly fine. I simply want users to be allowed using the Latin script, too. The Arabic script is consonantal. That makes it rather difficult to read and use unknown words and expressions comparing to the Latin script. Perhaps that's why almost all Ottoman Turkish sentences here are transliterations of modern Turkish.
Ricardo14
4 days ago
Is it possible to filter sentences according to their license? I mean, how can I find sentences under CC0?
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CK
CK
4 days ago
1. Download all the sentences.
http://downloads.tatoeba.org/ex...tences.tar.bz2
2. Download the sentence numbers with CC0 license.
https://downloads.tatoeba.org/e...es_CC0.tar.bz2
3. Grab all the sentences with these numbers from the sentences.csv file.

These are the counts from last week's exported data.
kab (7079 sentences)
eng (253 sentences)
fra (108 sentences)
ukr (94 sentences)
spa (12 sentences)
por (6 sentences)
rus (3 sentences)
pol (3 sentences)
deu (3 sentences)
CK
CK
4 days ago
** Audio Stats **

https://prnt.sc/mmgmtz

Compare stats from these 3 days.
2019-02-16
2018-02-08
2016-03-22
Thanuir
5 days ago
If I have marked a sentence and it has been since removed, the sentence is shown with mark as outdated; for example https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/7711907.

This is okay, but the problem is that such sentences are still visible in my collection of outdated markings. As the collection is a good place to check if one should change those ratings, it would be good for the ratings of removed sentences to not be there.

Deleted sentences could also be removed from the other lists of ratings, but this is not as important.
Aiji
8 days ago - 8 days ago
Advanced search:
English, display translations in French
Limit to sentences having French indirect translations.

Only English and French are displayed.

Link one French => All translations are now displayed.

Is it intended behavior?
(I do not think so, and that is quite a bother when doing some linking work)
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CK
CK
8 days ago
I couldn't duplicate the problem with these 2 searches.
Are these similar to what you were trying to do?

https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...io=&sort=words
Keyword: Australia
From: English
To: French
Show Translations In: French
Limit To: French
Link: Indirect

https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...io=&sort=words
Keyword: Australia
From: English
To: French
Show Translations In: French
Limit To: French
Link: Direct
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Aiji
7 days ago
Yes.
If I link one French sentence, then all translations will appear.
The problem will not happen if you restrict the langages to be displayed in your profile. That's usually how I do it, but this time I forgot so I faced this situation (maybe I, or somebody else, already mentioned it in the past).
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CK
CK
7 days ago
I understand what you mean now. The same thing happened before the update to the latest CakePHP, so it's not a change in the way the website works.
Pfirsichbaeumchen
9 days ago
Er hat Geburtstag, unser Ricardo (Ricardo14)! Herzlichen Glückwunsch zum Geburtstag!

Happy birthday, Ricardo! 😊
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marafon
9 days ago
Feliz aniversário, Ricardo!
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Ricardo14
8 days ago
Spasibo!!! :D
Ricardo14
8 days ago
Danke sehr! :D
Guybrush88
8 days ago
Happy birthday :)
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Ricardo14
8 days ago
Grazie mille! :D