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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 3 days ago April 15, 2021 at 5:28:42 PM UTC link Permalink

In https://www.manythings.org/anki/ber-eng.zip the language is original Berber or Kabyle or Chelhi or any other variant? What is the difference between these variants compared to Romance Languages?

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shekitten shekitten 3 days ago April 15, 2021 at 10:28:45 PM UTC link Permalink

I'm not 100% sure I understand, but I think a big difference is that there is no state entity pushing a Standard Romance language, whereas both Morocco and Algeria are pushing notions of a Standard Berber. A lot of the time it's things like this that end up deciding what gets treated as a language, what gets treated as a language family, etc..

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 12:11:50 PM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 12:13:38 PM UTC link Permalink

shekitten
The Kabardian sentences this Qazzaza or Igider is adding to Tatoeba seem to be all taken from this Wikipedia article.

https://kbd.wikipedia.org/wiki/...8B%D0%BD%D0%B4

Now you can have an idea about the true identity of the person who's posting these messages. Maybe he confuses the Amazigh Kabyle dialect with Kabardian, hhhh. Anyways, all I can tell that he's as Kabardian as a whale is a panda. Besides, are there really Kabardians who don't speak Russian ;-)

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shekitten shekitten 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 12:36:49 PM UTC link Permalink

That's really weird that someone would show up, add a bunch of sentences copied and pasted from other websites for languages that are entirely unrelated to Berber, and start discoursing about Berber. It's certainly very suspicious. There have got to be other, better, more constructive ways of engaging in political activism; this site might need political sentences (I think it does), but it doesn't need this level of pettiness. What can the mods do about this?

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 12:41:15 PM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 12:41:22 PM UTC link Permalink

Berber has many sentences but many English sentences has multiple translations given in Berber in https://www.manythings.org/anki/ber-eng.zip. This is a useful resource but there has to be a single variety in one language in https://www.manythings.org/anki as this is used in Machine Translation. If the heading given as Berber is for Standardized Berber, there has to be only one translation for one sentence.

QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 12:37:05 PM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 12:37:19 PM UTC link Permalink

That is an article in Kabardian Wikipedia.

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:21:47 PM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 1:23:09 PM UTC link Permalink

OK, Qezzaza... Why don't you try to write me in Russian? Please don't tell me that they don't teach you Russian in Kabardia... Or perhaps translate some random sentences from English into your mother tongue, Kabardian :-) Tatoeba also has tons of super simple English sentences like these that you might try to translate into Kabardian instead of copy-pasting probably super complex sentences from Wikipedia. Check out this like for a start:

https://tatoeba.org/eng/tags/sh...s_with_tag/199

Neɣ ahat weɛṛent fell-ak ;-) D tamaziɣt kan ay fessusen fell-ak?

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:25:58 PM UTC link Permalink

I never said that I am from Kabardia.

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:36:31 PM UTC link Permalink

The lies go on and on and on, Igider :-) Then where does this sudden interest in the Amazigh language come from? Hey... by the way... If you're not Kabardian, then why are you contributing sentences in Caucasian languages that are all copied from external and copyrighted websites?

(Tessewhamed-iyi a Igider) ;-)

These are random sentences:

Асхьаб Ӏокхийтар соалоза тӀара.
https://bit.ly/2QbadOj

ЯпэремкӀэ ЯпэремкӀэ абдзэх лъэпкъыр щыпсоуэ а шӀыпӀэм.
https://bit.ly/2OSn7js

Лакку мазрал цӀанасса тагьарданияту тамансса чивчуну бур.
https://bit.ly/3x9B2mP

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:40:07 PM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 1:52:15 PM UTC link Permalink

I saw Berber has more than 100000 sentences which is a milestone but each sentence in English has multiple translations in Berber with no indication as to which translation is which variety.

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:41:58 PM UTC link Permalink

Should that be a reason for Tatoeba to delete Berber? And please answer my question:

If Kabardian isn't your mother tongue, then what is your mother tongue?

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:46:04 PM UTC link Permalink

I am not saying to delete Berber but when Berber gets a new ISO 639-3 code there should be some changes made for adding Berber Language added and before that there should be an indication in Berber category in Tatoeba as to which sentence is which variety.

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:52:34 PM UTC link Permalink

OK. Tanemmirt ɣef yisumren-a.

Amastan Amastan 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:38:08 PM UTC link Permalink

Qzzaza?
What's your mother tongue?

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:41:43 PM UTC link Permalink

I know English but I am not saying English is my Mother Tongue.

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:43:11 PM UTC link Permalink

What's your language?
D acu-tt tutlayt-nnek?

Or are you simply a troll or a sock puppet made by Igider?

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:46:27 PM UTC link Permalink

I speak English.

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:54:16 PM UTC link Permalink

You speak English? As if I couldn't see it :-) (Ẓriɣ aya, ulayɣer ma tennid-iyi-d)

You're being too suspicious and dodgy to be given any serious consideration. You simply appear out of nowhere, claim that English is your strongest language yet you don't even capitalize the word "English" that you spell "english." Your claim in your profile that you have some knowledge in a variety of Caucasian languages and all you do is copy-paste sentences from COPYRIGHTED SOURCES. Then all of a sudden, you're interested in the Amazigh language and start asking questions about why it has this or that... You strangely remind me of a group of people who kind of did the same thing a couple of years ago.

If you're an actual user and contributor of this website, one should at least expect you to be honest and not so "mysterious" about your linguistic identity. If no Caucasian language is your language and English is neither your mother tongue nor your strongest language (language names are capitalized in English), and if you don't contribute sentences of your own making, then what are you doing here?

@Pfirsichbaeumchen - Maybe you could persuade this guy to answer these question.

QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:28:31 PM UTC link Permalink

eng
The architect made a mistake.
ber
Amasgad-nni iga lɣelḍa.
ber
Iga umasgad-nni lɣelḍa.

Here also there are two Berber translations and Tatoeba requires ISO 639-3 for accepting a language which Berber does not have. It would be better to add an indication of which variety each Berber Translation is.

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DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 3:16:49 PM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 3:17:16 PM UTC link Permalink

What's the issue with having multiple possible translations? T̶h̶e̶r̶e̶'̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶r̶u̶l̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ if multiple translations are possible, they should ideally be added. I could contribute a translation in Latin American Spanish and another user could give a translation in European Spanish for the same sentence. They're both considered Spanish, and pretty much mutually understandable. It's better for machine translators to have multiple examples so they understand that there's diversity in language, and the more data they intake the more they'll be able to differentiate the styles.

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 4:59:37 PM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 4:59:46 PM UTC link Permalink

The differences could be for even basic Grammar words.

QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:48:18 PM UTC link Permalink

By the way many Circassians which is an ethnic category which includes Kabardians live outside of Russia.

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:56:11 PM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 1:56:27 PM UTC link Permalink

So now you're a Circassian who lives outside of Russia? Where exactly? Jordan? Palestine? Turkey? The US? Canada? I know that... but I think that the admins of this website would rather be more interested in you than in those Circassians that live in Australia.

You're being too suspicious and dodgy to be given any serious consideration. You simply appear out of nowhere, claim that English is your strongest language yet you don't even capitalize the word "English" that you spell "english." Your claim in your profile that you have some knowledge in a variety of Caucasian languages and all you do is copy-paste sentences from COPYRIGHTED SOURCES. Then all of a sudden, you're interested in the Amazigh language and start asking questions about why it has this or that... You strangely remind me of a group of people who kind of did the same thing a couple of years ago.

If you're an actual user and contributor of this website, one should at least expect you to be honest and not so "mysterious" about your linguistic identity. If no Caucasian language is your language and English is neither your mother tongue nor your strongest language (language names are capitalized in English), and if you don't contribute sentences of your own making, then what are you doing here?

@Pfirsichbaeumchen - Maybe you could persuade this guy to answer these question.

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:59:58 PM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 2:21:25 PM UTC link Permalink

English is my strongest language and out of all the Languages I know, I know English the best.

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:03:38 PM UTC link Permalink

Did you grow up speaking English?

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:05:01 PM UTC link Permalink

I grew up speaking English.

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:13:05 PM UTC link Permalink

You grew up speaking English, huh? I hate to disappoint you but you don't sound at all like someone who grew up speaking English. Growing up speaking English implies that you grew up speaking it at home and usually, those who grow up speaking English since they were toddlers or kids at home, speak and write English far, far, far better than you. Unless you spent the first six years of your life in total isolation from any humans and human language, your English, as I see it here in these messages, is far, far, far away from sounding like the English of a person whose first language is English. Your English doesn't even look like the English of a person who attended primary school in English, unless, of course, you grew up in an English-speaking country where you never went to school.

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:14:59 PM UTC link Permalink

That is a spelling mistake while typing a lot here and English is my strongest
language.

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:18:35 PM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 2:21:37 PM UTC link Permalink

I'm afraid, my friend, that your English is far, far away from being the type of natural English that even an English-language educated Chinese born and raised in Singapore or Malaysia would speak.

Read that again:
"English is my strongest language and out of all Languages I know, I know English the best."

A person who grew up speaking English and did his primary education in English would never say something like "out of all languages I know." This is an error among many others that you've made here.

Dayen, cikkeɣ fuken-ak :-)

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:22:46 PM UTC link Permalink

Singapore and Malaysia also have slang forms of English.

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:25:23 PM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 2:25:44 PM UTC link Permalink

We're not here to discuss the English spoken in Singapore and Malaysia. We're talking about whether you're telling the truth or not, whether you're an actual contributor to this website or simply a troll :-) Wet nneḥ [Give up already!]

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:27:05 PM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 2:28:21 PM UTC link Permalink

English is the strongest language that I know.

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:31:27 PM UTC link Permalink

Did you do your primary education in English?

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:32:57 PM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 2:33:22 PM UTC link Permalink

Yes, I did my primary education in English

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:36:03 PM UTC link Permalink

Was that in an English-speaking country?

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:47:02 PM UTC link Permalink

Yes.

Amastan Amastan 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:50:42 PM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 2:06:24 PM UTC link Permalink

Qezzaza:

You're being too suspicious and dodgy to be given any serious consideration. You simply appear out of nowhere, claim that English is your strongest language yet you don't even capitalize the word "English" that you spell "english." Your claim in your profile that you have some knowledge in a variety of Caucasian languages and all you do is copy-paste sentences from COPYRIGHTED SOURCES. Then all of a sudden, you're interested in the Amazigh language and start asking questions about why it has this or that... You strangely remind me of a group of people who kind of did the same thing a couple of years ago.

If you're an actual user and contributor of this website, one should at least expect you to be honest and not be so "mysterious" about your linguistic identity. If no Caucasian language is your language and English is neither your mother tongue nor your strongest language (language names are capitalized in English), and if you don't contribute sentences of your own making, then what are you doing here?

@Pfirsichbaeumchen - Maybe you could persuade this guy to answer these question.

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:52:39 PM UTC link Permalink

Spelling mistake while typing.

QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:55:28 PM UTC link Permalink

I am not saying my identity for Personal Reasons and then also English is the strongest language I know as I don't know my Ancestral Language very well and I know English better than my Ancestral Language.

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:57:55 PM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 1:59:09 PM UTC link Permalink

Revealing the name of the country where you live wouldn't reveal "too much" about your personal identity, would it? Ur ttaggad :-) Unless, of course, you're a wanted fugitive and you're afraid the NSA find you :-p

You're being too suspicious and dodgy to be given any serious consideration. You simply appear out of nowhere, claim that English is your strongest language yet you don't even capitalize the word "English" that you spell "english." Your claim in your profile that you have some knowledge in a variety of Caucasian languages and all you do is copy-paste sentences from COPYRIGHTED SOURCES. Then all of a sudden, you're interested in the Amazigh language and start asking questions about why it has this or that... You strangely remind me of a group of people who kind of did the same thing a couple of years ago.

If you're an actual user and contributor of this website, one should at least expect you to be honest and not so "mysterious" about your linguistic identity. If no Caucasian language is your language and English is neither your mother tongue nor your strongest language (language names are capitalized in English), and if you don't contribute sentences of your own making, then what are you doing here?

@Pfirsichbaeumchen - Maybe you could persuade this guy to answer these question.

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:30:19 PM UTC link Permalink

NSA is not the only intelligence agency in the World.

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:33:05 PM UTC link Permalink

It was just a joke. Our topic isn't intelligence agencies :-) Our topic is you and how you were unable to explain us what you're doing here.

You're being too suspicious and dodgy to be given any serious consideration. You simply appear out of nowhere, claim that English is your strongest language yet you don't even capitalize the word "English" that you spell "english." Your claim in your profile that you have some knowledge in a variety of Caucasian languages and all you do is copy-paste sentences from COPYRIGHTED SOURCES. Then all of a sudden, you're interested in the Amazigh language and start asking questions about why it has this or that... You strangely remind me of a group of people who kind of did the same thing a couple of years ago.

If you're an actual user and contributor of this website, one should at least expect you to be honest and not so "mysterious" about your linguistic identity. If no Caucasian language is your language and English is neither your mother tongue nor your strongest language (language names are capitalized in English), and if you don't contribute sentences of your own making, then what are you doing here?

@Pfirsichbaeumchen - Maybe you could persuade this guy to answer these question.

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:34:22 PM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 2:34:31 PM UTC link Permalink

You are copy pasting this-

You're being too suspicious and dodgy to be given any serious consideration. You simply appear out of nowhere, claim that English is your strongest language yet you don't even capitalize the word "English" that you spell "english." Your claim in your profile that you have some knowledge in a variety of Caucasian languages and all you do is copy-paste sentences from COPYRIGHTED SOURCES. Then all of a sudden, you're interested in the Amazigh language and start asking questions about why it has this or that... You strangely remind me of a group of people who kind of did the same thing a couple of years ago.

If you're an actual user and contributor of this website, one should at least expect you to be honest and not so "mysterious" about your linguistic identity. If no Caucasian language is your language and English is neither your mother tongue nor your strongest language (language names are capitalized in English), and if you don't contribute sentences of your own making, then what are you doing here?

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:37:11 PM UTC link Permalink

The paragraph I've been copy-pasting isn't an example sentence for the Tatoeba corpus. It's just to warn the admins of your suspicious presence.

There you go again:

You're being too suspicious and dodgy to be given any serious consideration. You simply appear out of nowhere, claim that English is your strongest language yet you don't even capitalize the word "English" that you spell "english." Your claim in your profile that you have some knowledge in a variety of Caucasian languages and all you do is copy-paste sentences from COPYRIGHTED SOURCES. Then all of a sudden, you're interested in the Amazigh language and start asking questions about why it has this or that... You strangely remind me of a group of people who kind of did the same thing a couple of years ago.

If you're an actual user and contributor of this website, one should at least expect you to be honest and not so "mysterious" about your linguistic identity. If no Caucasian language is your language and English is neither your mother tongue nor your strongest language (language names are capitalized in English), and if you don't contribute sentences of your own making, then what are you doing here?

@Pfirsichbaeumchen - Maybe you could persuade this guy to answer these question.

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:38:41 PM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 2:41:30 PM UTC link Permalink

There is nothing suspicious about not revealing everything of a person.

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:47:38 PM UTC link Permalink

I should remind you (and remind myself as well as an old member of this website) that this is a Wall made for everyone to post their messages, inquiries, and other things they deem useful for the progress of the Tatoeba project. Therefore, I think that I've said enough and it's time for me to stop talking to you on this Wall. I'll leave it for the admins to do their job. Bye.

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:50:48 PM UTC link Permalink

My suggestion is to indicate which sentences in Berber is of which variety of Berber.

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DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 3:18:44 PM UTC link Permalink

I don't know any type of Berber, but isn't it possible that the word order could be different and a different term used but they're both valid sentences from the same dialect?

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 4:44:40 PM UTC link Permalink

Varieties refer to the type and they could be from different dialects however different dialects have different words and the difference could be huge.

samir_t samir_t 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 5:55:48 PM UTC link Permalink

@DJ_Saidez
They are not even dialects of the same language, but quite different languages even grammatically. I do not deny that for example, Kabyle and the shawiya language geographically close, are a little close (and yet the Shawiya people in Algeria do not like to study the Kabyle imposed by the State as a Berber language), be sure that an " Algerian Berber "does not understand a Moroccan one at all, and even Moroccans in the north do not understand their compatriots in the south. All those who speak of the contrary, only make political speeches.

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Ooneykcall Ooneykcall 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 6:27:13 PM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 7:02:08 PM UTC link Permalink
warning

The content of this message goes against our rules and was therefore hidden. It is displayed only to admins and to the author of the message.

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samir_t samir_t 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 6:42:45 PM UTC link Permalink
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sacredceltic sacredceltic 9 hours ago April 18, 2021 at 9:34:31 PM UTC link Permalink
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Igider Igider 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 8:26:13 AM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 8:35:30 AM UTC link Permalink

Hi,

By the way, the Kabyle language is an official language under "ISO 639-2 Kab". It has its own grammatical, phonetic, spelling, syntactic and semiological rules. The Berber language is only a family of languages. It's like Latin languages, we cannot mix English and French and say that they are a single language under the pretext that they are of the same family, I mean Latin!

The Kabyle language is written only in Latin since the nineteenth century, but the so-called "Berber language" is written simultaneously in Arabic, Latin and Tifiniagh.

On the other hand, dictatorial regimes such as Algeria and Morocco have murdered "Berber" activists. And have done everything to erase their languages until today!

Those who defend a Berber language, are unicists, and are the allies of circumstances of dictatorial powers, they do not tolerate any other vision than theirs! Unfortunately, they follow the same path as the Arab basists. They promote the Muslim ideology and misrepresent their country with shameless lies.

In the end, history and science will judge!

Learn more : https://tatoeba.org/fra/user/profile/Igider

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shekitten shekitten 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 8:41:37 AM UTC link Permalink

As it stands Tatoeba has both, as it should, because it's not the job of a site like Tatoeba to tell someone that a language does not exist or to determine the boundaries of languages and dialects and families.

English is a Germanic language with a large number of Latin words, BTW, but it's not the point. If there were people seriously pushing for the idea of a unified Romance language, or a unified Germanic language, and if this ideology were popular, Tatoeba should accommodate this, while also not erasing existing languages.

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Igider Igider 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 8:49:36 AM UTC link Permalink

You are absolutely right, Shikitten. I agree!

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 11:21:17 AM UTC link Permalink

Northern Berber

Kabyle

Kabyle (Taqbaylit)
Atlas

Central Atlas Tamazight (Tamaziɣt)
Shilha (Tacelḥit)
Senhaja de Srair & Ghomara
Zenati

Riffian (Tmaziɣt)
Ayt Seghrouchen & Ayt Warayn
Shenwa
Shawiya
Other Zenati (Mzab-Wargla, East Zenati)
Western Berber

Zenaga (Tuḍḍungiyya)
Eastern Berber

Eastern Berber (Siwi, Nafusi, Sokna, Ghadamès, Awjila)
Tuareg

Tuareg (Tamasheq)

These are a list of varities in Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_languages.

QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 8:45:38 AM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 8:46:57 AM UTC link Permalink

https://www.manythings.org/anki/ has 131357 Berber sentences and are those including Kabyle and other sentences while there are 30136 Kabyle sentences? If the differences between the variants of Berber like Kabyle, Chelhi are too large, making a language translation model with Berber sentences might not be intelligible. There are 131357 sentences and what proportion are Kabyle and what proportion are other variants?

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Igider Igider 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 8:55:34 AM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 8:59:05 AM UTC link Permalink

You have well underlined the problem, Mr. QAzaqQA, because it is absurd to mix several languages to create another artificial one! That nobody speaks because it comes from a state laboratory and some opportunistic pseudo-linguists..

QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 8:51:50 AM UTC link Permalink

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_languages says "There is a cultural and political movement among speakers of the closely related varieties of Northern Berber to promote and unify them under a written standard language called Tamaziɣt (or Tamazight). The name Tamaziɣt is the current native name of the Berber language in the Moroccan Middle Atlas and Rif regions and the Libyan Zuwarah region. In other Berber-speaking areas, this name was lost. There is historical evidence from medieval Berber manuscripts that all indigenous North Africans from Libya to Morocco have at some point called their language Tamaziɣt.[5][6][7] The name Tamaziɣt is currently being used increasingly by educated Berbers to refer to the written Berber language, and even to Berber as a whole, including Tuareg.

In 2001, Berber became a constitutional national language of Algeria, and in 2011 Berber became a constitutionally official language of Morocco. In 2016, Berber became a constitutionally official language of Algeria alongside Arabic."

This is based on which variant of Berber as there is no Wikipedia page for Standardized Berber.

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Igider Igider 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 9:08:02 AM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 9:32:39 AM UTC link Permalink

@QAzaqQA

When ideology mixes with science it gives this kind of nonsense! You have well defined the subject.

And dictatorial states such as Algeria and Morocco, falsely support this so-called "Berber" language in order to eradicate all Berber languages.

Imagine if the State of Israel created an "Israeli" language by mixing Hebrew, Yiddish, Judeo-Arabic and Judeo-Spanish... under the pretext of uniting all the Jews of the world!

But we know very well that Jews are not stupid!

עדות

:-)

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 9:33:59 AM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 9:37:44 AM UTC link Permalink

There is the page of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...roccan_Amazigh and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...lgerian_Berber but Algerian Berber is a Kabyle variant and it seems Moroccan Amazigh emphasizes on Shilha but if there are two Berber variants of Algeria and Morocco as two different national Languages which language is in a higher proportion in https://www.manythings.org/anki/? There are 382,849 Berber Sentences but which is what Berber sentence? Latin is an Ancient language and is there in Tatoeba but if French, Spanish and other Romance Language sentences were added to Latin, the Translation model made would be very strange.

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Igider Igider 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 9:52:14 AM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 10:27:51 AM UTC link Permalink

@QAzaqQA

Yes, everyone calls his Frankenstein beast "Berber language" but these "artificial languages" of the Moroccan state and the Algerian or Libyan state are not similar nor do they fit together!

That's what we call: "continuing in the bullshit!"

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 10:31:33 AM UTC link Permalink

https://www.manythings.org/anki/ has 131357 Berber sentences and says that they consulted native speakers of the languages but then how did they get native speakers for Berber language and had 131357 Berber sentences when there is no natural Berber Language.

QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 10:55:04 AM UTC link Permalink

Amastan contributes to Berber Language which is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...roccan_Amazigh
or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...lgerian_Berber but it seems Algerian Berber is a Kabyle variant and it seems Moroccan Amazigh emphasizes on Shilha. This is his page https://tatoeba.org/eng/user/profile/Amastan where he says all varieties are included but a little change from standard variant is still different and cannot be used by Machine Translation. So the sentences are https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...roccan_Amazigh or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...lgerian_Berber ?

QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 11:37:06 AM UTC link Permalink

You better watch your back! Ɛass iman-nnek! CC-BY 2.0 (France) Attribution: tatoeba.org #4121175 (Hybrid) & #7341613 (Amastan)
You better watch your back! Ɛass iman-nnem! CC-BY 2.0 (France) Attribution: tatoeba.org #4121175 (Hybrid) & #7341615 (Amastan)
You better watch your back! Ɛasset iman-nwen! CC-BY 2.0 (France) Attribution: tatoeba.org #4121175 (Hybrid) & #7341617 (Amastan)
You better watch your back! Ɛassemt iman-nwent! CC-BY 2.0 (France) Attribution: tatoeba.org #4121175 (Hybrid) & #7341618 (Amastan)
You better watch your back! Ɣas ɛass iman-nnek! CC-BY 2.0 (France) Attribution: tatoeba.org #4121175 (Hybrid) & #7341621 (Amastan)
You better watch your back! Ɣas ɛass iman-nnem! CC-BY 2.0 (France) Attribution: tatoeba.org #4121175 (Hybrid) & #7341622 (Amastan)
You better watch your back! Ɣas ɛasset iman-nwen! CC-BY 2.0 (France) Attribution: tatoeba.org #4121175 (Hybrid) & #7341623 (Amastan)
You better watch your back! Ɣas ɛassemt iman-nwent! CC-BY 2.0 (France) Attribution: tatoeba.org #4121175 (Hybrid) & #7341625 (Amastan)

This is one of Amastan Contribution present in https://www.manythings.org/anki/ which is a problem for Machine Translation as many translations just for one English Sentence.

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 12:50:51 PM UTC link Permalink

These have different end words which is a problem for Machine Translation.

shekitten shekitten 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 12:52:15 PM UTC link Permalink

What you say about Latin is true, and it's also true mostly by circumstance. Only a few hundred years ago it was far more common for speakers of Romance languages, and even non-Romance languages, to read and write in Latin. Go only a few more centuries back and it's considered unusual to write in the vulgar romance language of the people - something not entirely accepted by everyone, and which could have gone a different way.

If you compare Arabic, you have a situation where people continue to read and write in a moderately updated version of their classical language, while speaking vernaculars that are wildly divergent. Many news broadcasts continue to be in standard Arabic. Many TV shows broadcast to the whole Arab world feature multiple dialects alongside each other - these are basically treated as variants of the same language. Maybe it's moving toward a situation like with the Romance languages, or maybe it isn't. In Arab countries people will speak different dialects to each other and usually get along OK, even if they might modify their speech slightly to be more understandable.

The question of languages and dialects is inherently a sociopolitical one. Standard Romance languages developed in the context of early nationalism, and their standardization often involved pushing out other dialects, as with the langues d'oïl. There are many opinions on this, and none of them are really appropriate for Tatoeba to decide or weigh in on. We're a corpus of example sentences. We're not a machine translation site, we're not really even a language learning site. We're not a site that feeds Clozemaster or whatever else. We're a corpus of example sentences translated into other languages. Part of this involves a Berber corpus, and it's up to the Berber corpus maintainers to decide what's appropriate for it, and if people don't find that corpus useful, they can feel free not to utilize it.

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:31:18 PM UTC link Permalink

Berber does not have an ISO 639-3 code which is required to accept a language in Tatoeba Project. The existing sentences labelled Berber has multiple varieties in it with no indication as to which variety is which sentence.

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shekitten shekitten 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 6:07:28 PM UTC link Permalink

The rule about ISO 639-3 codes was added later in Tatoeba's life, and there are a few languages that are grandfathered in. I believe Arabic is one of them (it would otherwise have to be MSA), as well as Toki Pona, and seemingly Berber as well.

QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 11:12:13 AM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 11:13:37 AM UTC link Permalink

List of the Tamazight dialects available on Tatoeba:

Taqbaylit - Kabyle
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc.../MessDjaaf/ber
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...BakirHamou/ber
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/of_user/Inal

Tarifit - Riffian
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...er/Amgaray/ber

Tamaziɣt n tlemmast n Meṛṛuk - Central Moroccan Berber
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...ahaMansoub/ber
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...Belarhzali/ber
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...medzakaria/ber

Tanfusit - Nafusi (Libya)
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...er/madghis/ber

Tumẓabt - Mozabite
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...er/Uyezjen/ber
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/of_user/rostom
http://bit.ly/2zZKvju

Tamaceɣt - Tuareg
http://bit.ly/2qStu6P

This is what is available in Tatoeba that I have found and these varieties do not have seperate labels. https://github.com/Tatoeba/tato...uest.md&title= is the site to go to if required to add these varieties in new labels in Tatoeba. Some of these varieties have more sentences than a few languages in Tatoeba.

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:29:11 PM UTC link Permalink

Qezzaza - Ответь на эти вопросы:

1- Почему вы копируете предложения из Википедии?

2- Вы лингвист, специализирующийся на берберском языке? Какие известные лингвисты берберского языка научно продемонстрировали, что берберского языка не существует?

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:34:05 PM UTC link Permalink

2- There are multiple sentences as translations in Berber with each variety different from each other in spellings with no indication as to which sentence is which variety in Berber and Berber does not have an ISO 639-3 code.

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:40:14 PM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 1:41:02 PM UTC link Permalink

So in your opinion, a language should have an ISO 639-3 code to exist, otherwise, it wouldn't exist, right? I guess that even the makers of the ISO 639-3 code wouldn't agree with that. Only a group of people well known on this website believe in that.

QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 1:34:41 PM UTC link Permalink

1- Wikipedia has many Kabardian sentences.

Amastan Amastan 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:03:12 PM UTC link Permalink

"Official language" a clear definition:

"An official language, also called state language, is a language given a special status in a particular country, state, or other jurisdiction. Typically a country's official language refers to the language used in government (judiciary, legislature, administration)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O...ministration).

If a language or dialect has an ISO 639-3 code, this doesn't make it an "official language." An official language is a language that has an "OFFICIAL LEGAL STATUS" within a state or a government. Tamazight is undeniably official in Algeria and Morocco. Deny it online or deny it by shouting from the roof tops wouldn't change this. It's a fact. Period.

This is what the 2020 Algerian constitution states about the Amazigh/Tamazight/Berber language:

ART 4
Tamazight shall also be a national and an official language.

THE STATE SHALL ENDEAVOUR TO PROMOTE AND DEVELOP IT IN ALL ITS LINGUISTIC VARIETIES THROUGHOUT THE NATIONAL TERRITORY.

An Algerian academy for the Tamazight language shall be established under the authority of the
President of the Republic.

It shall be supported by the work of the experts and assigned the task of providing the necessary requirements to develop the Tamazight language in order to integrate it as an official language in the future.

The modalities of implementing this Article shall be stipulated by an organic law

Source: https://constitutionnet.org/vl/...t-constitution


Therefore, Kabyle, as a variety of the Amazigh language, is part of this endeavor.


This is the translation of the Algerian constitution into Tamazight/Berber:
http://constitutionnet.org/site...s-tmazight.pdf

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:04:12 PM UTC link Permalink

I did not deny that.

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:14:20 PM UTC link Permalink

Tanemmirt :-) Yiwet n tikkelt nqeṣṣer deg Facebook... Ur ẓriɣ ara ma tecfid-as, yernu nniɣ-ak dakken yeɛjeb-iyi uqeṣṣer yid-k :-) Ihi ma teɣsed ad teẓred... Mazal ḥemmleɣ ad qeṣṣreɣ yid-k... :-D

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:25:36 PM UTC link Permalink

You should have added an indication as to which variety the Berber sentences you added are.

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:30:38 PM UTC link Permalink

You're being too suspicious and dodgy to be given any serious consideration. You simply appear out of nowhere, claim that English is your strongest language yet you don't even capitalize the word "English" that you spell "english." Your claim in your profile that you have some knowledge in a variety of Caucasian languages and all you do is copy-paste sentences from COPYRIGHTED SOURCES. Then all of a sudden, you're interested in the Amazigh language and start asking questions about why it has this or that... You strangely remind me of a group of people who kind of did the same thing a couple of years ago.

If you're an actual user and contributor of this website, one should at least expect you to be honest and not so "mysterious" about your linguistic identity. If no Caucasian language is your language and English is neither your mother tongue nor your strongest language (language names are capitalized in English), and if you don't contribute sentences of your own making, then what are you doing here?

@Pfirsichbaeumchen - Maybe you could persuade this guy to answer these question.

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:32:34 PM UTC link Permalink

There is nothing suspicious of asking of adding an indication as to which variety the Berber sentences you added are.

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:33:55 PM UTC link Permalink

Wanna know what the suspicious thing is?

It's your sock puppet theater :-)

You're being too suspicious and dodgy to be given any serious consideration. You simply appear out of nowhere, claim that English is your strongest language yet you don't even capitalize the word "English" that you spell "english." Your claim in your profile that you have some knowledge in a variety of Caucasian languages and all you do is copy-paste sentences from COPYRIGHTED SOURCES. Then all of a sudden, you're interested in the Amazigh language and start asking questions about why it has this or that... You strangely remind me of a group of people who kind of did the same thing a couple of years ago.

If you're an actual user and contributor of this website, one should at least expect you to be honest and not so "mysterious" about your linguistic identity. If no Caucasian language is your language and English is neither your mother tongue nor your strongest language (language names are capitalized in English), and if you don't contribute sentences of your own making, then what are you doing here?

@Pfirsichbaeumchen - Maybe you could persuade this guy to answer these question.

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:36:44 PM UTC link Permalink

You are claiming that there is a sock puppet theater.

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 2:37:37 PM UTC link Permalink

It's for the admins to determine that ;-)

sacredceltic sacredceltic 9 hours ago April 18, 2021 at 9:38:20 PM UTC link Permalink
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Objectivesea Objectivesea 9 hours ago April 18, 2021 at 10:09:50 PM UTC link Permalink
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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 10:43:05 AM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 11:01:58 AM UTC link Permalink

@Amastan you contribute to Berber Language which is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...roccan_Amazigh
or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...lgerian_Berber but it seems Algerian Berber is a Kabyle variant and it seems Moroccan Amazigh emphasizes on Shilha. So the sentences are https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...roccan_Amazigh or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...lgerian_Berber ?

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Amastan Amastan 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 12:04:49 PM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 12:07:46 PM UTC link Permalink

@Qazzaza (or Igider ;-))

Thanks for your questions.

This is what the 2020 Algerian constitution states about the Amazigh/Tamazight/Berber language:

ART 4
Tamazight shall also be a national and an official language.

THE STATE SHALL ENDEAVOUR TO PROMOTE AND DEVELOP IT IN ALL ITS LINGUISTIC VARIETIES THROUGHOUT THE NATIONAL TERRITORY.

An Algerian academy for the Tamazight language shall be established under the authority of the
President of the Republic.

It shall be supported by the work of the experts and assigned the task of providing the necessary requirements to develop the Tamazight language in order to integrate it as an official language in the future.

The modalities of implementing this Article shall be stipulated by an organic law

Source: https://constitutionnet.org/vl/...t-constitution


The Amazigh language still doesn't have an ISO-639-3 code but the Algerian authorities are already working on requesting it. For more information, please contact the High Commission for Amazighity (the Algerian higher authority in charge with the Amazigh/Berber language):
https://www.hcamazighite.dz/fr/contact

You can also find an Amazigh version of many Algerian government websites online (ministries, directorates, higher institutions, agencies, etc.).

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QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 12:34:08 PM UTC link Permalink

Why are different varieties of Berber added as Berber with each having different spellings if there is supposed to be Standardized Berber in Tatoeba?

Amastan Amastan 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 12:15:25 PM UTC link Permalink

Kudos for your sock puppet theater, Igider ;-)

Pfirsichbaeumchen Pfirsichbaeumchen 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago April 16, 2021 at 6:15:27 PM UTC, edited April 16, 2021 at 6:28:13 PM UTC link Permalink

This discussion, which is obviously becoming far too long and personal and irrelevant for other users, is now closed. You may continue privately or somewhere else, but I would recommend focussing your energy on something constructive, such as adding sentences that will be fun to learn.

• Some languages that were added before the implementation of the rule that an ISO 639-3 code is required are exceptions that will remain as they are. We have been clear about this, and this is not up for discussion.

• Sentences can have multiple translations in the same language. (It's a good idea not to overdo it mindlessly.)

• It is not our concern how we can accommodate other projects. We are our own project: Tatoeba. We need not place restrictions upon ourselves because other projects would find that useful.

• Much has been said about various languages spoken in Northwest Africa. It has been quite enough.

Some relevant rules:

• Do not add sentences from copy-righted sources.

• Behave like mature adults.

• Do not submit sentences that will antagonize contributors or readers.

See: https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...ow/guidelines#

osaiwel11 osaiwel11 yesterday April 17, 2021 at 9:27:10 AM UTC link Permalink
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lbdx lbdx yesterday April 17, 2021 at 7:52:26 AM UTC link Permalink

** Tatominer **

Thanks to shekitten, GlossaMatik, Yorwba, AlanF_US, carlosalberto, Thanuir, ddnktr, bill, odexed, Ooneykcall, MarijnKp, aldar, Fateme, giefingl, Rwmpelstilzchen, GrizaLeono, maaster, Yemana, Ergulis, Rovo, danepo, Johannes_S, cojiluc, CK, Balamax, Cabo, small_snow, felix63 and GaryGaryGary for their contributions that helped move the project forward this week.

Check out the most searched words that lack sentences or translations in your language on https://tatominer.netlify.app.

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GlossaMatik GlossaMatik yesterday April 17, 2021 at 8:12:23 AM UTC link Permalink

You are welcome!

gillux gillux 7 days ago April 11, 2021 at 10:13:34 PM UTC link Permalink

Tatoeba now supports more than 400 languages!

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 7 days ago, edited 6 days ago April 11, 2021 at 11:29:06 PM UTC, edited April 12, 2021 at 7:15:04 PM UTC link Permalink

Amazing!

Alkrasnov Alkrasnov 6 days ago April 12, 2021 at 1:37:09 PM UTC link Permalink

What are the two new ones that appeared?

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gillux gillux 6 days ago April 12, 2021 at 1:38:34 PM UTC link Permalink

Kabardian and Sranan Tongo.

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Alkrasnov Alkrasnov 6 days ago April 12, 2021 at 1:39:08 PM UTC link Permalink

Amazing! Great job on that!

GlossaMatik GlossaMatik 4 days ago April 14, 2021 at 2:06:45 PM UTC link Permalink

Wow!Great!!

QAzaqQA QAzaqQA 3 days ago April 15, 2021 at 12:23:44 PM UTC link Permalink

I requested about 7 languages when there were 393 languages and Kabardian which was added after there were 399 languages in Tatoeba was also requested by me.

Thanuir Thanuir 3 days ago April 15, 2021 at 10:46:57 AM UTC link Permalink

It would be nice to have some slang usage of Gucci in the corpus, in addition to using the brand name properly.

https://www.urbandictionary.com...php?term=Gucci

sharptoothed sharptoothed 4 days ago April 14, 2021 at 7:45:27 AM UTC link Permalink

** Stats & Graphs **

Tatoeba Stats, Graphs & Charts have been updated:
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com/allstats/

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Guybrush88 Guybrush88 4 days ago April 14, 2021 at 12:45:39 PM UTC link Permalink

thanks

Ricardo14 Ricardo14 4 days ago April 14, 2021 at 4:16:33 PM UTC link Permalink

thank you!

endycj endycj 4 days ago April 14, 2021 at 7:56:17 AM UTC link Permalink

how did berber and kabyle get to be two of the top languages on here? Is there some organization of native speakers committed to promoting these on tatoeba?

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shekitten shekitten 4 days ago April 14, 2021 at 12:27:40 PM UTC link Permalink

There are some people very enthusiastic about these languages that use Tatoeba. That's how it works, and the only way it can work.

Akh2403 Akh2403 5 days ago April 13, 2021 at 11:50:00 PM UTC link Permalink

I like this website. It reinforces all the language learning that I have accumulated.

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Ivanovb Ivanovb 4 days ago April 14, 2021 at 11:27:00 AM UTC link Permalink

欢迎光临我们的网站

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Akh2403 Akh2403 4 days ago April 14, 2021 at 11:38:02 AM UTC link Permalink

谢谢你😅 😄😃😀🙂☺️😊

lbdx lbdx 8 days ago April 10, 2021 at 8:01:11 AM UTC link Permalink

** Tatominer **

Thanks to Guybrush88, MarijnKp, carlosalberto, AlanF_US, shekitten, Ooneykcall, Shishir, deyta, cojiluc, Ivanovb, Pfirsichbaeumchen, ddnktr, Adelpa, soliloquist, aldar and Muelisto for their contributions that helped move the project forward this week.

Check out the most searched words that lack sentences or translations in your language on https://tatominer.netlify.app.

deniko deniko 9 days ago April 9, 2021 at 8:15:10 AM UTC link Permalink

Not sure if it can be considered a bug, but the way tatoeba looks when you search for a long string looks a bit messy but also funny.

https://i.imgur.com/7QMBw2t.png

The search string was

="any advice to you"|"any advice for you"|"any advice to me"|"any advice for me"|"any advice to him"|"any advice for him"|"any advice to her"|"any advice for her"|"any advice to us"|"any advice for us"|"any advice to them"|"any advice for them"|"any advice to Tom"|"any advice for Tom"|"any advice to Mary"|"any advice for Mary"|"some advice to you"|"some advice for you"|"some advice to me"|"some advice for me"|"some advice to him"|"some advice for him"|"some advice to her"|"some advice for her"|"some advice to us"|"some advice for us"|"some advice to them"|"some advice for them"|"some advice to Tom"|"some advice for Tom"|"some advice to Mary"|"some advice for Mary"

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gillux gillux 9 days ago April 9, 2021 at 9:14:01 PM UTC link Permalink

This is definitely a bug, thank you for letting us know. I added it to our bugtracker: https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2685