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mramosch mramosch April 25, 2020 at 10:37 AM, edited April 26, 2020 at 8:27 AM April 25, 2020 at 10:37 AM, edited April 26, 2020 at 8:27 AM link Permalink

I do experience some unexpected UI behavior which I am not quite sure of whether it is device related, some kind of bug in the browser or even a Tatoeba site issue.

On an iPad/Safari if I tap on a ‚latest message‘ link on the wall page the window gets scrolled automatically to the position of the message and the address in the top address bar changes automatically e.g. from->to

https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/index#
https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/index#!#message_34998

However, if I now scroll back to the top of the wall page, either manually or automated by hitting the status bar on the top edge of the iPad, and tap the same message link again, it thinks that I am already there (because the address in the address bar matches the address in the link) and doesn’t refresh and scroll to the right position anymore.

I would expect that the link always jumps to the right position. By the way, this is the same story in the Chrome Browser, so I think we can rule out the Browser to be the culprit.

Just a small hiccup but inconvenient nevertheless...

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TRANG TRANG April 26, 2020 at 7:29 PM April 26, 2020 at 7:29 PM link Permalink

Guybrush reported your issue on GitHub: https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2297

mramosch mramosch April 26, 2020 at 9:23 AM, edited April 26, 2020 at 9:46 AM April 26, 2020 at 9:23 AM, edited April 26, 2020 at 9:46 AM link Permalink

I have seen this here

https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/5298668

1. There are two translations for ‘Lingua Franca Nova’ with two different scripts.

What is the recommendation for languages that have different scripts? Write 2 sentences, tag them somehow, write one...?

2. And in the same record we see two translations for Russian, that seem to put the “in the morning” in two different places. In German you can put it in three positions without having to change stress or intonation in the sentence at all (and without actually creating any additional nuance) and all of them are used with the same frequency in everyday conversation.

Does it make sense to write translations for all three of them? In German - because of the case system - the positioning of words is pretty generous, so this would lead to an amount of translations for some sentences...

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Thanuir Thanuir April 26, 2020 at 5:43 PM April 26, 2020 at 5:43 PM link Permalink

Jos mahdollisia käännöksiä on monta, niistä kaikki voi lisätä. Tätä tapahtuu paljon myös suomen tapauksessa. Luulisi saman pätevän eri aakkostojen suhteen, mutta tästä en tiedä varmasti.

gillux gillux April 26, 2020 at 6:45 PM April 26, 2020 at 6:45 PM link Permalink

For languages that can be written in multiple scripts, like LFN, Tatoeba can automatically converts the script so that contributors can contribute in any script and don’t need to add both. We have this for Uzbek, and it looks like this functionality should be added for LFN too.

This issue is on our issue tracker https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1958

pastelite pastelite April 24, 2020 at 3:07 PM April 24, 2020 at 3:07 PM link Permalink

I have a question

In some language, "younger sister" and "older sister" are using two different word.

what should i do with a sentence like "this is my sister", should i use younger one, older one, or just ignore it.

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sabretou sabretou April 24, 2020 at 3:33 PM April 24, 2020 at 3:33 PM link Permalink

For Marathi we have a standard word for 'sister', and a more affectionate word for 'older sister'. When translating those sentences, I add both of those translations because I think the English 'sister' is a valid translation for when in Marathi we use the word for older sister.

maaster maaster April 24, 2020 at 4:09 PM April 24, 2020 at 4:09 PM link Permalink

In Hungarian we also have two different words for "sister", i.e.: "húg" - younger sister, "nővér" - older/elder sister. Sometimes I use both (in two different sentences) and sometimes just one of them. It's on you.
(We've a general word for sister (lánytestvér = "girl sibling") but we don't really use that.)

Thanuir Thanuir April 24, 2020 at 6:08 PM April 24, 2020 at 6:08 PM link Permalink

Kuten yllä sanottiin: Voit lisätä kumman tahansa käännöksen tai molemmat.

Suosittelen joko vuorottelemaan tai lisäämään molemmat, niin että molemmista tulee esimerkkejä tietokantaan.

gillux gillux April 25, 2020 at 11:21 AM April 25, 2020 at 11:21 AM link Permalink

If the original sentence doesn’t give any hints, create two translations: one talking about an older sister, the other about a younger sister.

Eremon Eremon April 21, 2020 at 9:01 PM April 21, 2020 at 9:01 PM link Permalink

Hello everybody!

I'd like to suggest something: Tatoeba is now very comprehensive, and it boasts thousands of examples in lots of entries, but I've seen that many "orphan" sentences are not translated because they're either very complex, or very bookish. I think that Tatoeba should strive for perfection, that is, it should strive for quality over quantity.

If this is a resource intended for language learners of all stages, it should get rid of those "orphan" sentences altogether, and also, we should peruse sentences that are similar to others (that convey the exact same idea), and also we should get rid of sentences that contain inflamatory comments, and also sentences that are very lengthy.

It makes no sense to me to keep adding hundreds of sentences everyday, while there are thousands of other sentences that are still not translated. We should focus on those untranslated sentences before moving on to keep adding sentences. And the sentences that we should add, must fill a linguistic gap not yet found in this corpus. Yes, because this is a multilingual corpus, and we should see it that way, and treat it that way.

Anyways, tell me what do you think, that's just my opinion on this beautiful site.

Best regards, Eremon.

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Thanuir Thanuir April 22, 2020 at 6:53 AM April 22, 2020 at 6:53 AM link Permalink

Hei,

Aina pitää muistaa, että Tatoeba on vapaaehtoisprojekti. Yleensä on vahingollista yrittää kieltää ihmisiä tekemästä jotain. Sen sijaan kannattaa inspiroida heitä tuottamaan jotain hyödyllistä.

Erityisesti, korpus on jo valmiiksi aika valtava, eikä ainakaan minulla ole hyvää käsitystä siitä, mitä se jo sisältää ja mitä ei. Niinpä lisään ja käännän sellaisia lauseita, mitkä sattuvat kiinnostamaan juuri sillä hetkellä.

Ehdotan siis, että lisäät itse sellaista sisältöä mitä haluat ja annat muiden lisätä sellaista sisältöä, mitä he haluavat. Jos haluat rohkaista muita tiettyyn toimintaan, tarjoa heille työkaluja ja ohjeita siihen suuntaan. Inspiroi, älä rajoita.

...

Tässä pisimmät englanninkieliset lauseet ilman käännöstä:
https://tatoeba.org/spa/sentenc...rt_reverse=yes

Tässä pisimmät espanjankieliset ilman käännöstä:
https://tatoeba.org/spa/sentenc...rt_reverse=yes

Noiden kääntäminen olisi suuri palvelus Tatoeballe; se on usein haastavaa ja vie aikaa.

lbdx lbdx April 22, 2020 at 10:20 AM, edited April 22, 2020 at 10:30 AM April 22, 2020 at 10:20 AM, edited April 22, 2020 at 10:30 AM link Permalink

I agree with you on the need to help contributors participate more effectively in the development of Tatoeba. On the other hand, it seems important to me that everyone remains totally free to choose the sentences he translates.

> "We should focus on those untranslated sentences before moving on to keep adding sentences."
In my opinion, translators who would like to optimize their impact on the quality of the corpus should translate as a priority:
- sentences that have not yet been translated into their language but are already translated into many other languages. In addition to the direct translation, the translator then adds numerous indirect translations to the corpus at the same time.
- sentences that contain words that are highly searched for on Tatoeba but have not yet been translated.

> "And the sentences that we should add, must fill a linguistic gap not yet found in this corpus."
I'm currently trying to develop a tool that allows to identify words that are often searched on Tatoeba but not yet represented in the corpus: https://tatominer.imfast.io. Feel free to use it and to share some feedback.


The ideal would be to be able to identify the sentences that would most need to be translated and the words that would most need to be added directly from the site's interface. For example, on the https://tatoeba.org/eng/activit...late_sentences page, one could add to the sorting options "containing untranslated words first" and "popular sentences first".

I hope that among the developers who plan to participate in the code event, some, like me, will be interested in creating this kind of new features.

Aiji Aiji April 22, 2020 at 1:23 PM April 22, 2020 at 1:23 PM link Permalink

> If this is a resource intended for language learners of all stages

It is not. However, some people like to use it as such.

Other than that, what you present is a personal opinion and I wholeheartedly encourage you to pursue your vision. However, I encourage everybody to do the same, because I think we will reach better diversity that way compared to the situation where everybody does the same.

TRANG TRANG April 25, 2020 at 6:02 AM April 25, 2020 at 6:02 AM link Permalink

Hi Eremon,

> I've seen that many "orphan" sentences are not translated because they're
> either very complex, or very bookish

Do you have any concrete examples?

As far as I can tell, there are only 650 orphan sentences that are not translated at all.
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...&sort_reverse=

There are in total over 190,000 orphan sentences, so the proportion of untranslated orphan sentences is quite low.
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...&sort_reverse=

Deleting orphan sentences that have a translation is not an easy choice. You'd have to make sure that there are other sentences that are translated to the same language(s) and cover *all* the vocabulary and the linguistic properties of the sentences that you choose to delete.

For instance you may have a complex/bookish sentence with the word "orphan", but if it's the *only* sentence that has a translation in Indonesian let's say, then deleting this orphan sentence will completely remove the chance for someone to find results when searching for "orphan" from English to Indonesian.

Generally speaking, it is good to remember that everyone has different needs. A sentence may be useless to you but very useful to someone else.

jegaevi jegaevi April 24, 2020 at 1:08 PM April 24, 2020 at 1:08 PM link Permalink

Hello everyone!

I got myself a new mic, so I'm able to record more audio for Hungarian sentences. If you want me to record a specific sentence you can add it to the following list:

https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...show/28326/und

You can add as many sentences as you'd like.

Have a good day!

(hun)

Heló mindenkinek!

Szereztem egy új mikrofont, szóval újra tudok hangvételeket készíteni magyar mondatokhoz. Ha szeretnétek, hogy egy bizony mondatot felvegyek, adjátok hozzá a következő listához:

https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...show/28326/und

Annyi mondatot adhattok hozzá, amennyit szeretnétek!

Szép napot!

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maaster maaster April 24, 2020 at 4:13 PM April 24, 2020 at 4:13 PM link Permalink

Nagyszerű!
Ami tetszik neked. (Ha lesz olyan, majd szólok. Köszi.)

belkacem77 belkacem77 April 22, 2020 at 5:38 PM April 22, 2020 at 5:38 PM link Permalink

@samir-t, @tiziri @Bedar

These sentences do not respect Kabyle Syntax and Grammar. The user does'nt answer.

https://tatoeba.org/kab/user/profile/Massi

How can we deal?


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Julien_PDC Julien_PDC April 23, 2020 at 6:02 AM April 23, 2020 at 6:02 AM link Permalink

His French sentences are also incorrect...

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belkacem77 belkacem77 April 23, 2020 at 10:20 AM April 23, 2020 at 10:20 AM link Permalink

Il est au courant puisqu'on a discuté hier. Il faut signaler les phrases pour l'aider à corriger. Pour ce qui est du kabyle, nous verrons comment faire avec les admins.

sharptoothed sharptoothed April 23, 2020 at 8:56 AM April 23, 2020 at 8:56 AM link Permalink

* Tatoeba Top 30 Languages For 14 Days *
New Tatoeba Top 30 Languages For 14 Days Interactive Graphs have been implemented:
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com.../index-14.html

sharptoothed sharptoothed April 21, 2020 at 7:02 PM, edited April 21, 2020 at 7:04 PM April 21, 2020 at 7:02 PM, edited April 21, 2020 at 7:04 PM link Permalink

* Tatoeba Top 30 Languages Interactive Graphs * have been updated:
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com/igraph/
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com/igraph/share.html

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 April 22, 2020 at 11:54 PM April 22, 2020 at 11:54 PM link Permalink

Thank you so really much :)

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sharptoothed sharptoothed April 23, 2020 at 8:54 AM April 23, 2020 at 8:54 AM link Permalink

You're welcome. :-)

sabretou sabretou April 15, 2020 at 2:32 PM, edited April 15, 2020 at 2:34 PM April 15, 2020 at 2:32 PM, edited April 15, 2020 at 2:34 PM link Permalink

Flag update proposals:

Hello! I'd like to present a few flag updates for the languages here, and I'd like your feedback on them!

There are 5 flags in all that I would like to change, and you can view them in this gallery: https://imgur.com/a/aN9g2MZ

== Gulf Arabic ==

This is a minor update to bring this flag in line with the other flags having similar language-code design. The only real change is the font of the language code.

== Arabic ==

The current Arabic flag has strong aliasing, which makes the edges of the font look very rough. I also thought that the shade of green used was too bright to properly contrast with the white text.

My proposed flag uses a darker shade of green for greater contrast and smoother text.

== Dutton World Speedwords ==

The current flag uses gradient colours of indeterminate origin. My updated flag uses a yellow-on-black design that is in line with the cover of Reginald J. G. Dutton's seminal book "Teach Yourself Dutton Speedwords".

== Old Spanish ==

This is a minor fix. I have only moved the flag to be left-aligned (as if on a flag pole), rather than centre-aligned. This brings it in line with the flag of Nepali and Old Norse, which are both also non-rectangular flags.

== Sanskrit ==

The present flag uses the Devanagari and Kannada letters of mismatched size. I cannot determine why the Kannada letter 'ka' is being used here, as Sanskrit is used far more frequently in other scripts. Besides, we seem to stick to using the Devanagari script for Sanskrit on Tatoeba anyway.

The new flag uses the Devanagari letter 'सं', which I chose over writing out the name of the language, as the latter option was a lot more illegible. The field colour of the flag has been updated to use the saffron colour found in the flag of India (which is the only country to recognise Sanskrit in an official capacity). The letter सं uses a shade of grey for contrast and aesthetic purposes.

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 April 21, 2020 at 11:41 AM April 21, 2020 at 11:41 AM link Permalink

Thanks a lot, sabretou!

As far anybody else opposed to these changes, I opened a ticket on GitHub - https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2292 - and I'm going to submit a PR soon :)

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sabretou sabretou April 21, 2020 at 12:04 PM April 21, 2020 at 12:04 PM link Permalink

I'm terribly sorry for this confusion, but I have since made updates to the flag proposals.

One of them in particular, for Arabic, had an incorrect spelling which was thankfully brought to my notice by Amastan.

I was going to make a Github issue soon, but thank you for saving me the work. :)

Could you please update the Github issue with the following flags?

https://imgur.com/a/zV2MnQp

Notes on the updated flag proposals:

== Gulf Arabic ==

No new changes.

== Arabic ==

Fixed spelling.

== Cayuga ==

The flag now uses the same colour as that of the Iroquois Confederacy flag, which is where we got the symbol from.

== Lower Sorbian ==

The symbol on the flag has been centred to be in view, in keeping with similar flags that use a symbol flag and a language code together.

== Dutton World Speedwords ==

No new changes.

== Scots and Scottish Gaelic ==

The Scottish flag has been compressed to be more obvious.

== Kamba ==

Fixed the language code font.

== Naga (Tangshang) ==

Switched to a neutral language code flag. The original flag belonged to a militant group named National Socialist Council of Nagaland, that designated as a terrorist organisation by India. It may not be in our best interest to use such a flag.

== Old Spanish ==

No new changes.

== Sanskrit ==

Used a better display font.

== Tahaggart Tamahaq ==

Fixed the language code font.

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 April 21, 2020 at 5:08 PM April 21, 2020 at 5:08 PM link Permalink

No problems :) I'm glad I could help somehow

Yorwba Yorwba April 21, 2020 at 8:45 PM April 21, 2020 at 8:45 PM link Permalink

> == Naga (Tangshang) ==

> Switched to a neutral language code flag. The original flag belonged to a
> militant group named National Socialist Council of Nagaland, that designated
> as a terrorist organisation by India. It may not be in our best interest to use such a flag.

In other such cases the procedure has been to get feedback from native speakers and make sure the flag used is one they can identify with. Did you try contacting Naga speakers to find out what they think about the change?

FWIW, there's an officially recognized Naga Self-Administered Zone in Myanmar, whose flag might be a less politically controversial choice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N...inistered_Zone

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sabretou sabretou April 21, 2020 at 10:51 PM, edited April 21, 2020 at 10:53 PM April 21, 2020 at 10:51 PM, edited April 21, 2020 at 10:53 PM link Permalink

We have two native speakers of Naga (Tangshang) on Tatoeba, but they were not contacted. I will do so to determine the best flag.

That said, black-on-white language code flags are intended to be temporary until a more representative flag can be determined or designed with the advice of native speakers.

geert56 geert56 April 21, 2020 at 9:07 PM April 21, 2020 at 9:07 PM link Permalink

What is the standard that Tatoeba follows in its language codes?
I suspect it is based on ISO-639-2 or -3. I found some strange codes,
like avk, cmn, gcf, hrx, kzj, lvs, prg, pes, pse, toki, yue, zsm.

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Yorwba Yorwba April 21, 2020 at 9:20 PM April 21, 2020 at 9:20 PM link Permalink

The language codes are ISO 639-3 (as documented e.g. on the downloads page: https://tatoeba.org/cmn/downloads ). The only exception in your list is "toki", because there's no ISO 639-3 code for Toki Pona.

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geert56 geert56 April 21, 2020 at 9:29 PM April 21, 2020 at 9:29 PM link Permalink

Thank you!