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lbdx lbdx 20 days ago, edited 20 days ago June 20, 2020 at 9:48 AM, edited June 20, 2020 at 9:49 AM link Permalink

A new version of tatominer ( https://tatominer.imfast.io ) is available.

The identification of words often searched but little covered by Tatoeba has been improved. You can now also access sentences containing popular words that are hardly translated into the target language of your choice.

I hope that this tool will be useful for those of you who would like to expand the vocabulary available on Tatoeba. 20 languages (and thus 380 language pairs) are already supported. Feel free to ask me to add a language you are interested in.

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AlanF_US AlanF_US 20 days ago, edited 20 days ago June 20, 2020 at 5:33 PM, edited June 20, 2020 at 5:37 PM link Permalink

I like the language drop-down. It makes the list of phrases easier to work with.

I thought I had added sentences for all the English phrases with fewer than two occurrences, but when I went back to the list, I saw the terms in bold, which I hadn't seen before. I'm not sure why.

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lbdx lbdx 20 days ago June 20, 2020 at 6:15 PM link Permalink

It's normal.

Following feedback from users who regretted the use of exact matches during searches, I finally decided to drop this constraint in the languages for which I had a stemmer.

As you have noticed, this greatly changes the results.

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AlanF_US AlanF_US 20 days ago June 20, 2020 at 7:31 PM link Permalink

What I'm saying is that first I went through the first two pages of the list, namely the words with 0 occurrences, then the words with 1 occurrence. But when I went back to the first page, I saw items listed in bold, with 0 occurrences, that I hadn't seen just 10 minutes before, when I was on that page. I don't see how stemming would cause that change in results unless stem-matches were first excluded, then included, during the same run, and I don't see why you would do that.

Another thing: your "occurrences" values seem not to change until a new batch of words is downloaded (which might happen weekly or so). But when I add a sentence for a phrase, I'd like to see the number of occurrences go up by one. This would help me keep track of where I am, and it would also give me a feeling of accomplishment. Although I realize it would be considerably harder to implement, it would be nice if clicking on a phrase would take me to a place (perhaps not on Tatoeba) where I could add a sentence, after which the occurrences of each word in my sentence would be stored in a Tatominer-local database. Then, whenever the "occurrences" value was queried for a word, it would be calculated as the sum of (a) whatever it was when you did the last download and (b) the number of times it occurred within the sentences that people added from inside your app since the last download.

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lbdx lbdx 19 days ago June 21, 2020 at 7:55 AM link Permalink

Thank you for your interest in Tatominer. Originally the goal of this project was to build a script that analyzes Tatoeba's search log to extract useful information for the community. The script is working quite well now (in the languages I know anyway), and could potentially be used for all languages supported by Tatoeba.

The site I put online is only intended to share these results. It simply consists of static pages that I update once a week from the weekly exports. The new features you propose would be very useful but unfortunately, synchronizing the data of the two sites while Tatoeba doesn't offer an API at the moment is much too difficult for me.

The functionality you ask for is very similar to what https://tatoeba.org/eng/vocabulary/add_sentences offers. I think that the word lists I generate could advantageously replace those currently online. A similar page for words that need translations could even be added. If developers are interested in working on these features, I would be happy to help them implement my script.

TRANG TRANG May 28, 2020 at 9:33 PM May 28, 2020 at 9:33 PM link Permalink

**Transition towards the new design**

I will need people to test the dev website for the transition towards the new sentence design.

https://dev.tatoeba.org/

On the dev website, the new design should now be enabled for everyone by default. For those who didn't have it enabled yet, you should see an announcement message about it.

There are two new things compared to the main website:
1) The expanded sentence menu will appear above the sentence ID and username (instead of hiding it).
2) There's an option to increase the number of translations visible by default. This option replaces "Display a link to expand/collapse translations" because on the new design, the expand/collapse link will always be there.

You will still be able to switch back to the old design if something in the new design is blocking you from doing the things you used to do. But this option won't be there forever. You are encouraged to try using the new design as much as possible and report any blocking issues so that can fix them.

Thank you for testing!

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CK CK May 28, 2020 at 9:43 PM May 28, 2020 at 9:43 PM link Permalink

It seems to take a long time for the sentences to be displayed.
I could see the comments for a long time before I could see the sentence and it's translations.

https://dev.tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/1434

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CK CK May 28, 2020 at 11:14 PM, edited May 29, 2020 at 1:31 AM May 28, 2020 at 11:14 PM, edited May 29, 2020 at 1:31 AM link Permalink

I also wonder why it's necessary to hide translations at all on a sentence's page.

All the data is downloaded anyway, so why not just show it by default.

The plain html page for the above sentence was 643 KB when I downloaded it to check.
This doesn't count the external files, but many if not all, will likely be cached on the user's device.,

I can understand why it might be desirable for pages of sentences like what you get when you browse by language or do a search, since some people doing searches may not be so interested in seeing all the translations.


Experimenting ...

For comparison, in the old layout, when downloaded, the plain html file was 1.1 MB. I assume that the extra filesize has a lot to do with all the lists that are part of the page's code. I have a lot of lists, plus all collaborative lists add even more.

In the new layout's page, I changed every occurence of " to " and the file size went down to 469 KB (72% of the original). Perhaps the code will work as well with this, perhaps not.

I also wonder whether you could cut out some of the data that is being sent to perhaps speed things up and to require less bandwidth for those who don't have unlimited bandwidth internet plans.

Here is one of a lot of sentences on that page.

{"id":499788,"text":"Estoy enamorado de ti.","lang":"spa","correctness":0,"script":null,"transcriptions":[],"audios":[],"lang_name":"Spanish","dir":"ltr","lang_tag":"es"},

Is this necessary?
"lang_tag":"es"

Also, couldn't the following be generated easily enough from the "lang":"spa" part.
"lang_name":"Spanish"

All it would take is a 2-field external Javascript file and a bit of code. I can send you an example if you need one. The Javascript file would likely get cached, so there would be less being loaded each time from tatoeba.org.

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TRANG TRANG May 29, 2020 at 2:31 PM May 29, 2020 at 2:31 PM link Permalink

Overloading a page with information is usually not a good design. If there were thousands of translations, I'm not sure why you would need them all to displayed at once. At some point you have to set a limit and I can understand that 5 translations might be too low for some people, but there has to be a limit.

The fact that we retrieve all translations isn't on purpose, it is just that we never spent time optimizing this part of the code.

Next to that, there are performance issues when it comes to rendering a page that has more and more content. Unfortunately, the new design is reaching this limit much sooner than the old design.

There is a lot of optimization to do. There's no doubt about that.

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deniko deniko May 29, 2020 at 2:37 PM May 29, 2020 at 2:37 PM link Permalink

> but there has to be a limit.

There's no limit now and it doesn't seem to cause any issues.

Also, I believe it would be a good idea to add the "auto-expand" as an option. The default can be displaying 5 sentences, as now, but I would love to be able to see all translations at once without having to click on each single sentence to see more translations.

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TRANG TRANG May 29, 2020 at 2:45 PM May 29, 2020 at 2:45 PM link Permalink

> The default can be displaying 5 sentences

Are you aware that you have the option to increase to 50 translations?

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deniko deniko May 29, 2020 at 2:47 PM May 29, 2020 at 2:47 PM link Permalink

> Are you aware that you have the option to increase to 50 translations?

I am, but why not make it infinity? This will not really affect the speed the page is loaded because, as CK had noted, you do load all the translations anyway.

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TRANG TRANG May 29, 2020 at 2:48 PM May 29, 2020 at 2:48 PM link Permalink

The fact that we retrieve all translations isn't on purpose, it is just that we never spent time optimizing this part of the code.

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deniko deniko May 29, 2020 at 2:53 PM, edited May 29, 2020 at 2:54 PM May 29, 2020 at 2:53 PM, edited May 29, 2020 at 2:54 PM link Permalink

So you're saying once you optimise the code it will get even worse? Not only will we have to click Show 1000 more translations, but it will also take much longer to display them? Repeat 20 times for each sentence displayed in the search results.

rumpelstilzchen rumpelstilzchen May 29, 2020 at 4:51 PM May 29, 2020 at 4:51 PM link Permalink

> There's no limit now and it doesn't seem to cause any issues.

There are already some issues even with the old design:
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2041
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1737

Yorwba Yorwba May 29, 2020 at 2:59 PM May 29, 2020 at 2:59 PM link Permalink

Note that the data is gzip-compressed during transfer, so the page isn't quite as bloated as it seems at first glance. According to the Firefox developer tools, the one you linked above requires 1.72 MB (compressed to 1.22 MB during transfer) but only 62.87 KB get downloaded again when I reload the page and everything else is cached. The bare HTML is 62.45 KB compressed and 585.19 KB uncompressed.

It's probably still possible to reduce the size substantially, but that would require focusing on the parts that don't compress well instead of those that repeat a lot.

AlanF_US AlanF_US May 28, 2020 at 11:09 PM May 28, 2020 at 11:09 PM link Permalink

Several issues, which I reported on GitHub yesterday:

https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2350

and today:

https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2352
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2353
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2354

Some of them affect the production site as well as the dev site.

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TRANG TRANG May 29, 2020 at 2:32 PM May 29, 2020 at 2:32 PM link Permalink

The issue about the vocabulary count is independent from the new design.

For the other issues I will reply in the comments over there.

deniko deniko May 29, 2020 at 9:10 AM May 29, 2020 at 9:10 AM link Permalink

Could you please leave the old sentence design as an option?

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TRANG TRANG May 29, 2020 at 2:15 PM May 29, 2020 at 2:15 PM link Permalink

Not forever. Keeping it has maintenance cost.

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deniko deniko May 29, 2020 at 2:33 PM May 29, 2020 at 2:33 PM link Permalink

Do you have any date in mind when you actually get rid of the old design in favour of the new one? A rough estimate.

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TRANG TRANG May 29, 2020 at 2:40 PM May 29, 2020 at 2:40 PM link Permalink

I only know for sure that it won't happen before July.

Perhaps it will have to wait until Kodoeba is over because organizing this event is going to drain a lot of time and energy from the dev team. But I don't really know yet.

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deniko deniko May 29, 2020 at 2:42 PM May 29, 2020 at 2:42 PM link Permalink

I see.

To avoid the problem of having the maintenance cost, maybe it would be a good idea to get rid of the new design and to stay with the old one?

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TRANG TRANG May 29, 2020 at 2:47 PM May 29, 2020 at 2:47 PM link Permalink

Then you'd have to elaborate why you think it's a good idea.

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deniko deniko May 29, 2020 at 2:51 PM May 29, 2020 at 2:51 PM link Permalink

Because the new design has literally zero advantages.

It has many disadvantages though. It's bulky, ugly and it doesn't let you see more than 50 translations at once, unless you click the "Show 200 more translations".

So if the choice is between something not perfect, but functional, and something not perfect but low functioning, I guess it makes sense to choose the first option.

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TRANG TRANG May 29, 2020 at 4:33 PM May 29, 2020 at 4:33 PM link Permalink

I can list several features and bugs that are solved in the new design but are still an issue in the old one.

https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2051
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1933
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1911
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1874
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1783
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1709
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1678
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1614
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1599
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1528
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1332
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/536
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/161

Saying that the new design brings zero advantages is a bit unfair. Perhaps for you, it has zero advantages and I cannot argue against that.

But overall, the problem is that the old design was tailored for desktop usage and people are now increasingly using mobile devices. We have to adapt to this shift, somehow.

I know very well that some users (you included) have built years of habits on top of the old UI and it makes it much harder to transition. If we had all the money and brains in the world, then our approach would be different. We would have several teams of developers, each working on a different UI that is optimized for a different device and even for different types of users. We don't have that.

At the moment we can only maintain one UI and rather than sticking forever to a desktop-oriented UI, the decision was to try and build a UI that finds a middle ground between desktop and mobile usage.

In terms of statistics, as far as I can tell, there's a majority of users who are currently fine with the new design:
- 263 users have the option "use_new_design" set to true
- 110 users have the option "use_new_design" set to false

I'm not saying the new design is great, but it is still preferred over the old design by many people. Your arguments for getting rid of it are strongly personal. From my perspective, it still doesn't look like a good idea to get rid of it.

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deniko deniko May 29, 2020 at 4:52 PM, edited May 29, 2020 at 4:53 PM May 29, 2020 at 4:52 PM, edited May 29, 2020 at 4:53 PM link Permalink

> I know very well that some users (you included) have built years of habits on top of the old UI

That's not only habits. Tatoeba became kind of second hobby to me, and part of the experience that I enjoy is comparing all the different translations to all different languages. Not seeing all those translations unless you click on every single link in the search result is quite less enjoyable.

I do agree it's a personal and very subjective opinion, and I probably get too emotional about one of my favourite hobbies slipping away from me.

I do agree you don't have to accommodate for me. I just expected this feature (being able to display all translations) to be liked by many people, but this might not be true.

I don't mind changing my habits and getting used to the new design, but one of the new features is literally a big step back from my point of view.

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Aiji Aiji May 30, 2020 at 2:38 AM May 30, 2020 at 2:38 AM link Permalink

> I do agree you don't have to accommodate for me. I just expected this feature (being able to display all translations) to be liked by many people, but this might not be true.

However, two of your main "disappointments" have been expressed by other people: "bulky" design and not all translations visible (cannot retrieve the exact GitHub ticket).
I would just like to mention that the new U.I. and its set of features will not be carved in stone forever. I think the new design will be more scalable and manageable, and once we get rid of old issues preventing this evolution, new features will keep on being added. With a little bit of luck, the feature(s) you find most enjoyable may find its way back into Tatoeba.

CK CK May 30, 2020 at 3:02 AM, edited May 30, 2020 at 3:15 AM May 30, 2020 at 3:02 AM, edited May 30, 2020 at 3:15 AM link Permalink

> - 263 users have the option "use_new_design" set to true
> - 110 users have the option "use_new_design" set to false

We have many more than 263+110 users.
We have at least 6,000 contributors with sentences in their native languages.


Does that mean 4.3% (263/6000) have the new design set to true, assuming we only have 6,000 users? Of course, we have more users than that.

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rumpelstilzchen rumpelstilzchen May 30, 2020 at 6:30 AM May 30, 2020 at 6:30 AM link Permalink

> Of course, we have more users than that.

But not all of them are really active. For example, since the beginning of this year 1544 distinct users (excluding spammers and suspended users) have logged in at least once.

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CK CK May 30, 2020 at 8:25 AM May 30, 2020 at 8:25 AM link Permalink

263 out of 1544 is still not a majority.

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rumpelstilzchen rumpelstilzchen May 30, 2020 at 12:21 PM May 30, 2020 at 12:21 PM link Permalink

Correct, but you can't compare these two numbers.

263 is the number of all users in the database who have set the setting "use_new_design" to "1" (= true), i.e. the changed it from the default value "0", false or "" [*]

1544 is the number of logged in users since 2020-01-01 disregarding of their user settings.

[*] Now why are there three different values for setting "use_new_design" to false?

The default value in the PHP code is "false".

When a new user registers, we don't save anything in the database for all settings and just fallback to the default values. (i.e. the settings column in the database is empty)

Whenever this user closes a banner we display to them, we store this action in the settings. But since we store all settings together in a JSON object, all other settings will be stored with their default values (case 1: "use_new_design":false)

Whenever the user visits their settings page, the checkbox for "use_new_design" is initialized with the empty string due to the default conversion from PHP false to the empty string.
If the user doesn't change that setting but some other one we get back the empty string but don't convert it back to PHP false and just save the empty string (case 2: "use_new_design":"")
If the user changes the setting we get back "1" (in the HTML code we use "1" for true and "0" for false) and save that in the database. And when the user later on changes the setting again, we now get back "0" and save that in the database (case 3: "use_new_design":"0")

Now the value Trang posted is the number of users who fall into case 3, i.e. users who have once switched to the new design and later on switched back to the old design (I'm one of these users because when I test something I always switch between both designs).

We don't really know whether the users which fall into the first two cases just don't care about the design (yet) or don't want to switch (yet).

There is another issue: The settings "use_new_design" only exists since October 2016. So users who registered before and never modified their settings as described above since then, won't have this setting stored in the database.
(There are 43358 users who don't have this setting, 847 of them logged in since 2020-01-01 and 459 of them contributed at least one sentence).

So we will see whether we get more complaints about the new design in the following weeks.

AntonKhorev AntonKhorev May 31, 2020 at 12:30 PM May 31, 2020 at 12:30 PM link Permalink

> But overall, the problem is that the old design was tailored for desktop usage and people are now increasingly using mobile devices. We have to adapt to this shift, somehow.

I had used tatoeba on a desktop only a few times. I mostly use it on a tablet. I prefer the old design.

The old design's disadvantages are small buttons.

The new design's disadvantage is *we'll show you translations to five random languages and bury the ones you want to see under 'show more' button*. But I guess this is now fixed by an option to show 50 translations instead, so you'll just have to scroll for longer because the sentences are bulkier.

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TRANG TRANG May 31, 2020 at 12:51 PM May 31, 2020 at 12:51 PM link Permalink

> we'll show you translations to five random languages

Translations are currently ordered alphabetically by language name.

> But I guess this is now fixed by an option to show 50 translations
> instead, so you'll just have to scroll for longer because the sentences
> are bulkier.

It's more like a workaround for the problem you mention. It does serve the purpose that some people will want to see more than 5 translations at once. It doesn't solve the problem that some users will have to look at the bottom of the list no matter what because the languages they are interested in happen to be last in the alphabetical order. To solve that problem, we have to allow the users to configure which languages they want to see in priority.

For the bulkiness part, you can read further explanations on the related GitHub ticket created by Alan:
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2354

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AlanF_US AlanF_US May 31, 2020 at 3:51 PM May 31, 2020 at 3:51 PM link Permalink

As you can see on that GitHub page, I was able to use code created by Trang, together with instructions by AndiPersti, to configure my Firefox/Windows setup to display Tatoeba in a custom compact mode, reducing whitespace and eliminating the "Translations" and "Translations of translations" captions. I'm satisfied with this approach, since I understand why Trang doesn't want to add an option for this mode to the standard user interface.

Trang, is there an issue ticket that tracks the feature that will allow users to configure the priority of the translations they see by language?

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TRANG TRANG May 31, 2020 at 5:49 PM May 31, 2020 at 5:49 PM link Permalink

> Trang, is there an issue ticket that tracks the feature that will allow
> users to configure the priority of the translations they see by language?

I created one just now:
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2364

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AlanF_US AlanF_US May 31, 2020 at 5:50 PM May 31, 2020 at 5:50 PM link Permalink

Thanks!

AlanF_US AlanF_US May 29, 2020 at 4:36 PM May 29, 2020 at 4:36 PM link Permalink

> Because the new design has literally zero advantages.

That's not true. For one thing, it makes the relationship between the sentence, the translations, and the translations of translations more clear. That's a big advantage, especially for people who are new to the site.

Especially since I am already familiar with the site, I do wish there was an option for a compact mode, as I mentioned in the issue ticket I wrote:

https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2354

Notice my approach:
(1) wrote an issue ticket
(2) included a screenshot
(3) was specific about what I wanted to change and what I could live with
(4) was polite

I figured that being specific and polite gave me a better chance to have my issue addressed. Also, I like the developer team and don't see a point in antagonizing them.

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deniko deniko May 29, 2020 at 4:54 PM May 29, 2020 at 4:54 PM link Permalink

Alan, if you consider yourself polite you're very wrong. You're constantly bullying other people here, you're a meanie and a bully.

CK CK May 30, 2020 at 2:55 AM May 30, 2020 at 2:55 AM link Permalink

I, too, would like to see the old design stay in place for a while.
I think it should definitely stay in place until the website has been converted over to mobile-friendly, which I think was the main purpose for changing this layout.

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TRANG TRANG May 30, 2020 at 3:55 PM May 30, 2020 at 3:55 PM link Permalink

Keeping both the old and new design has maintenance cost. For everything we do, we have to care about not breaking the old design as long as it's there. And among other things, it is difficult to move towards a mobile-friendly UI while knowing that there's still an ancient component which will easily break if we change the layout or change part of the CSS.

Ricardo14 Ricardo14 May 29, 2020 at 10:58 PM, edited May 29, 2020 at 11:01 PM May 29, 2020 at 10:58 PM, edited May 29, 2020 at 11:01 PM link Permalink

One of the buttons I'd like to see whenever a sentence is displayed is the "♥" (favorite) button.

Sometimes it occurs to me that a sentence is somehow important and so, I'd like to add it to my "personal gallery" (my favorites) instead of creating a list.

As for now, I have to click on the arrows to be able to favorite a sentence.

====

Perhaps in "Number of translations visible by default" there could be a way to display which sentences we'd like to see first (in which language, for example). It has been discussed before, thought.

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TRANG TRANG May 30, 2020 at 2:54 PM May 30, 2020 at 2:54 PM link Permalink

For the favorite button, you would have to use the feature to expand all menus. You would then see all buttons all the time.

The collapsed menu can only support 3 buttons and the (arbitrarily) chosen features were:
- translate
- edit
- list

If we display more, the username will sometimes be hidden for people who have long usernames. Unless you can justify that the favorite button is more often used than "translate", "edit" or "list", then it will have to remain in the hidden buttons.

The option to prioritize which language to display first in the list of translations has been discussed before, yes. I don't think it will be implemented before we switch to the new design though, it's not a very easy feature to implement.

alexmarcelo alexmarcelo May 30, 2020 at 2:09 PM, edited May 30, 2020 at 2:13 PM May 30, 2020 at 2:09 PM, edited May 30, 2020 at 2:13 PM link Permalink

How can I link two (distant) sentences together using the new sentence design? I can't find the chain icon that could be easily found in the old design.

And to be honest, I think this new design is not very practical for maintenance purposes. Editing a sentence and changing its flag should be easier (at least for admins and corpus maintainers), but these tasks seem to be much more complicated and time-consuming now than they used to be.

I do like the way things look in the new design, but IMHO it's very unpractical.

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TRANG TRANG May 30, 2020 at 3:08 PM May 30, 2020 at 3:08 PM link Permalink

To link sentences, you would now have to make use of the mechanism to auto-detect duplicates.
1) You copy the text of the sentence you want to link.
2) You add it as a translation of your current sentence.

Editing a sentence requires the same steps as before:
1) Clicking the edit button.
2) Changing the text in the input.
3) Pressing enter or clicking save.

Changing the language requires only one more step:
1) Clicking the edit button (as opposed to clicking the flag).
2) Selecting the language.
3) Clicking the save button.

If any corpus maintainers has to fix languages so often that it is needed to eliminate the 3rd step, I'd like to know how frequently it happens and why it happens (because it really shouldn't happen often).

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alexmarcelo alexmarcelo May 30, 2020 at 3:13 PM May 30, 2020 at 3:13 PM link Permalink

Thanks, Trang. I guess I can live with that. ;-)

morbrorper morbrorper 20 days ago June 20, 2020 at 3:54 PM link Permalink

Will I have go back to manually copying sentences to link them, like when I was a humble contributor? I hope I've misunderstood, because that will decrease my productivity enormously. I'm afraid it will also lead to errors, since it is easy to get the language wrong, either manually or using the auto-detect feature, which isn't fail-safe.

The sentence-copy works a bit erratically for me (fat fingers, probably), and manual copy sometimes includes the language name or misses the terminating punctuation, so I have made a number of copy-paste mistakes in the past. It was such a relief to become an advanced contributor and to be able to use the icon for linking.

By the way, this is my first wall message, so let me say Hi to everybody!

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TRANG TRANG 20 days ago June 20, 2020 at 5:28 PM link Permalink

> Will I have go back to manually copying sentences to link them,
> like when I was a humble contributor?

No. The link button is there for advanced contributors. It's just hidden by default so you'd have first to "show more features" (last icon in the sentence menu).

> By the way, this is my first wall message, so let me say Hi to everybody!

Welcome to the Wall :)

Guybrush88 Guybrush88 20 days ago June 20, 2020 at 6:19 PM link Permalink

I just tried to add a random sentence from here: https://dev.tatoeba.org/ita/sentences/add but nothing is being added. The green loading bar goes on forever, but no sentence is actually being added

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TRANG TRANG 20 days ago June 20, 2020 at 9:07 PM link Permalink

Thanks for testing :) This should be fixed, please try again.

I should mentioned that for now, the transition to the new sentence design will remain on hold, so you won't be able to test what I mentioned in the original post.

The priority shifted to making the landing page responsive[1]. And next it will be the search page (for non-authenticated users).

With these two pages being responsive, we can conclude the project for which we received our second MOSS award[2]. Even though the whole website won't be responsive yet, these two pages account for the majority of our traffic, so it would be good enough.

The transition to the new sentence design as default will come after that.

---

[1] https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/show_message/35464
[2] https://blog.tatoeba.org/2019/0...oss-award.html

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Guybrush88 Guybrush88 19 days ago June 20, 2020 at 9:51 PM link Permalink

now it works properly. Thanks for the very quick fix and for the development plans' explanation

Blaha Blaha 21 days ago June 19, 2020 at 7:39 AM link Permalink

Kérdés a svéd anyanyelvűekhez és nyelvtanulókhoz:
(Question for Swedish-speaking people and Swedish learners)

Szeretném fejleszteni a tudásomat a svéd nyelvből, és az lenne a kérdésem:
Ismertek olyan applikációkat, szótárakat, ahol a szavak magyarázatai szintén svédül vannak és esetleg példamondatokat is tartalmaznak (és ha lehet, többnyire A2/B1 szinten megérthetőek a magyarázatok)?

Válaszokat előre is köszönöm!

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Thanuir Thanuir 21 days ago June 19, 2020 at 11:35 AM link Permalink

Jag brukar https://svenska.se/ .

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Blaha Blaha 20 days ago June 20, 2020 at 6:58 AM link Permalink

Köszönöm, kipróbáltam, nagyon hasznos volt a SO, még ha példamondatokban nem is bővelkedik.

jimkillock jimkillock 21 days ago, edited 21 days ago June 19, 2020 at 7:24 AM, edited June 19, 2020 at 7:25 AM link Permalink

Hi all, and especially Latinists: I have set up a website and project to promote use and creation of Open Latin content, inspired by the success of Tatoeba and other projects like Vicipaedia. It has a website here: https://openlatin.org and a twitter account: https://twitter.com/openlatin Please do let me know if you would like to help!

We will try to identify tools that Latin and other languages might need, and longer term, perhaps well as develop other common content.

sharptoothed sharptoothed 24 days ago June 16, 2020 at 9:46 AM link Permalink

** Stats & Graphs **

Tatoeba Stats, Graphs & Charts have been updated:
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com/allstats/

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Guybrush88 Guybrush88 24 days ago June 16, 2020 at 10:07 AM link Permalink

thanks

jungnet jungnet 24 days ago June 16, 2020 at 7:09 AM link Permalink

"İstediğiniz dilde yazabilirsiniz. Tatoeba'da tüm diller eşittir." Muhteşem bir bakış açısı...

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Thanuir Thanuir 24 days ago June 16, 2020 at 7:20 AM link Permalink

Kyllä. Toivottavasti korkean profiilin käyttäjät alkavat kirjoittamaan äidinkielellään, niin väittämästä tulee vielä todempi.

Ricardo14 Ricardo14 25 days ago June 15, 2020 at 9:20 PM link Permalink

** Tatoeba UI Translation (Localization) Monthly Update °1 (May 15 - June15 )**

(Next one will be published between July 1st and 3rd)

Hi there, everyone! Glad to talk to you? It's been months since I've started to take care of localization (Translation of the User Interface). We could implement 2 new languages (Gronings and Kurdish) and start new projects.

As for now, thanks for **everyone** who is participating. Your efforts are helping all the community to have Tatoeba fully translated in one's native language and so, it brings us a better user experience (not to say that it may help language learners to "explore" Tatoeba using it in a language (s)he's learning).
====

UPDATES

As for now, we 92 project languages which 8 are fully translated for now* (cf https://www.transifex.com/tatoe...ite/dashboard/ )

The User Interface in Breton, Dutch, Finnish, (2 strings left for each one), Romanian and Spanish (3), and Kabyle (12) are nearly fully translated.


3 projects were implemented during this range:
- Turkmen (350 strings translated out 1,640)
- Uyghur (181 strings translated out 1,640);
- Oriya, Telugu, Minangkabau, Hunsrik, Cantonese, Zaza, Urdu and Swabian - (no strings translated yet)


You can help us to translate into these languages and/or in other languages listed in there or not. Just leave me a private message - https://tatoeba.org/eng/private...rite/Ricardo14 or email me - ricardo14@tatoeba.org

FAQ: https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...ranslation-faq




tommg tommg 28 days ago June 12, 2020 at 8:56 PM link Permalink

Hey guys!

A few days ago I released my language learning site using Tatoeba sentences to teach 6 languages. It is the successor of listeningpractice.org that I abandoned many years ago. It can be found at:

http://www.linguno.com

I am currently trying to figure out the best way to collect errors reported by the users and forward them to Tatoeba. It's still pretty early in the development process, there is still a lot of room for improvement, so please let me know if you have any suggestions (especially regarding the potential synergies between Tatoeba and Linguno).

P.S. I have talked to Trang about the site, and there are still some minor changes to be made in the Terms & Conditions regarding Tatoeba sentences. It is going take a few more days.

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jimkillock jimkillock 27 days ago, edited 27 days ago June 13, 2020 at 10:14 AM, edited June 13, 2020 at 11:22 AM link Permalink

Hi there,

I really like your site and think it is a great use of open content. Good luck with it. I will be using it myself and have signed up.

However, you are right about the terms and conditions. Copyright subsists in (most of) the sentences, and there is a licence applied to them, which requires attribution and the ability for the end user to reuse the content you are publishing.

Thus, the T&Cs do need to spell out the source for the material and the licence conditions. In my view this needs to be linked on a page whenever it is used, especially if the sources vary. The user needs to be able to find out who wrote it for you to comply with the "by" condition and to know how to reuse the content themselves to comply with the "sharealike" condition. If the user has to trawl several sites to work this out, then the licence isn't being complied with.

This is complied with very well on clozemaster.com where the user can, for each sentence, find their way back to Tatoeba. That's how I found Tatoeba; I suspect the same is true for at least some other more recent contributors.

I hope this is something you agree with and will do. Don't forget you are building on the works of thousands of volunteers, whose work you are asked to appreciate through the licence, and you will want to encourage others to continue to contribute so your own product can grow in the future.

Sorry if that comes off as off hand - I certainly don't mean to be as I really like what you have done – but I am a very committed producer of open content and do believe that it is important for people to respect and promote the open-ness of content through complying with the licences.

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tommg tommg 27 days ago June 13, 2020 at 11:58 AM link Permalink

It didn't come off as offhand at all. :-) I agree with everything you have said and I added a link to the Tatoeba page on the solution page of the conjugation and listening exercises.

Ricardo14 Ricardo14 27 days ago June 13, 2020 at 6:19 PM link Permalink

It's an amazing website! I've just registered in there.

When do you intend to implement more languages?

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tommg tommg 27 days ago June 13, 2020 at 7:18 PM link Permalink

Thank you. :-) Setting up a new language is quite a lot of work, so I don't think I'll get to it for a few more months. Right now, the priority is adding more stuff for the existing languages.

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 26 days ago June 14, 2020 at 11:33 AM link Permalink

Got it! :D

Sonotoki Sonotoki 30 days ago June 10, 2020 at 9:28 AM link Permalink

Всем привет! Ребята, можете объяснить как работает "Add vocabulary request"? Я как-то не смог понять сразу, чтобы потом переводить его соответственно во время перевода сайта Tatoeba

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Blaha Blaha 30 days ago, edited 30 days ago June 10, 2020 at 11:57 AM, edited June 10, 2020 at 12:16 PM link Permalink

@Sonotoki
Jelenleg a 'my vocabulary' szekció nem éppen megfelelően működik. Például hozzáadsz egy szót, és van mondjuk 4 belőle a korpuszon, azt fogja neked írni, hogy több mint ezer található.
------------------------------------
(Szerintem sok nyelvben nincs is értelme a 'vocabular request'-nek, mivel a felírt szavakat a keresés esetén két macskakarom ("") közé teszi, és csak úgy keres rá.
Magyar, vagy bármelyik nyelv, ami agglutináló, azaz ragozó nyelv esetében ennek nincs értelme, egyetlen egy főnévnek lehet akár tíz esete és egyetlen egy igének lehet több száz ragozott alakja; nem is számítva az olyan nyelvek mellékneveit, ahol a főnév nemétől függ a melléknév alakja...

Normálisan rendezett lista kéne a szavakról; példul egy adott melléknév esetén annak fokozott alakjait is meg lehessen találni.
Így viszont nem sok értelmét látom, nem sírnék, ha kivennék a projektből.)
-------------------------------------
Helyette viszont szívesen látnék egy ehhez nagyban hasonló dolgot, amikor szavakat lehetne megadni, amiket látni szeretnénk mondatokban.
Például lenne a főoldalon egy mező, ahol 24 óráig életbenben lenne minden ilyen kérés, és aki szeretne, adott szavakkal írhatna mondatokat. (olyan lenne, mintha tippeket adnánk) (eddig is ezt csináltuk ha nem volt ötletünk, láttunk egy mondatot, valami megtetszett benne, azzal írtunk egy másikat)
---------------------------------------
@Sonotoki
Ha valamelyik szóból, amit hozzáadtál, 10-nél kevesebb van a korpuszon (csak az a bizonyos szó, ragozott alakjait nem számolva), akkor be van válogatva az 'existing vocabulary request' csoportba, ahol lehet nézelődni, és plusz jelre rákattintva szavakat hozzáadni. A 'my vocabulary' szekció, nem átlátható, főleg ha sok szót írsz. Nem tudod rendezni őket, nem tudsz egyszerre százat feltölteni, se letörölni, és mint feljebb írtam, jelenleg hibás adatokat jelez.

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Sonotoki Sonotoki 30 days ago June 10, 2020 at 1:44 PM link Permalink

Hello @Blaha! Thank you for your answer! I got it somehow (Thanks for Google translate ^_^) Your answer is the feature request, rather than the simple answer, isn't it? )
That's good. I understand that if someone searches for the certain word (with mixing his conjugation, whatever), then system will return the sentence that contains that word, right? Hmm, then, basing that how it's works, I'll translate the "Add vocabulary request".
I know, you mentioned that this function isn't working well for now. It's obvious, because every language has its own grammar, conjugation way, and so on. I remember that I've tried to write Uzbek language conjugator, that was nightmare ^_^ (Still not finished)

CK CK 30 days ago June 10, 2020 at 4:26 AM link Permalink

** Stats - 2020-06-10 - Language Stats - Cumulative Sums and Percents **

http://tatoeba.ueuo.com/stats-2...ve-counts.html

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Blaha Blaha 30 days ago June 10, 2020 at 12:25 PM link Permalink

Ezaz angol! Hajrá!
Érjük el a 20%-ot, mert még túl kevés az ugyanolyan mondatok száma, hol ugyanazon két név felcserélésével, hol új nevekkel!
Hajrá Tom, hajrá Mary, hajrá Yanni, hajrá Skura!