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brauchinet brauchinet 16 days ago March 21, 2020 at 4:02 PM link permalink

Minor bug:
Sentence #8281856 is misclassified as Spanish by the search engine.
It shouldn't appear in this search: https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...rom=spa&to=und

It also appears in the same search for Portuguese, though:
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...rom=por&to=und

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TRANG TRANG 16 days ago March 21, 2020 at 5:25 PM link permalink

I created an issue on GitHub: https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2226

Pandaa Pandaa 15 days ago March 21, 2020 at 6:39 PM link permalink

Gondolom meg lett változtatva a zászló, de valamiért benn maradt a spanyol mondatok között is.
Egy zászló oda-vissza állítást megér a portugál és spanyol közt, hátha akkor már törlődik a spanyol mondatok közül.

because_maybe because_maybe 21 days ago March 16, 2020 at 12:47 PM link permalink

Hi,

I just searched "chiamassero" for example sentences, and all the sentences showing the verb "chiamare" (vocabulary form) showed up.

In my personal language learning I need a thing like this: you give it a specific form like "chiamassero" or "chiameremmo", and that thing spits out "chiamare".

How is it done within tatoeba? For which languages do you have this features?

Thanks :)

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AlanF_US AlanF_US 21 days ago, edited 21 days ago March 16, 2020 at 1:27 PM, edited March 16, 2020 at 1:32 PM link permalink

For many languages, including Italian, our search engine (Manticore) has a feature called stemming. That means that it strips common endings from both the search words and the sentences against which it is looking for a match (unless you request an exact match by putting an equals sign before a search word). That's the behavior you saw when you searched for "chiamassero" and found sentences with "chiamare" (among other words, like "chiamarono"). The list of languages for which our search engine provides stemming can be found (see item 2) on this wiki page:

https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...w/text-search#

You can get that link by clicking the "Help" link above the search bar.

Tatoeba doesn't have a facility for returning the dictionary form of an inflected word, but Wiktionary does. Simply type "chiamassero" into the search field, and you'll get this page:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chiamassero#Italian

with the text "third-person plural imperfect subjunctive of chiamare".

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because_maybe because_maybe 21 days ago March 16, 2020 at 1:40 PM link permalink

I've searched in tatoeba's source code for stemming, and I've found it uses snowball if I read the source right. My understanding is that "chiamassero" and "chiamare" and "chiameremmo" are all stemmed to "chiam". However, what I'd really want is for them to be stemmed to "chiamare", so my platform could look it up in a dictionary directly.

An example of what really does exactly what I want is mecab. I give it a sentence, and it gives me back a list of words I can directly look up in a dictionary in their dictionary form.

Can I just look at the closest match in a dictionary for the stemmed form, for most languages, and get the correct word?

It is my understanding that wiktionary's feature is based on manual contributions and is not algorithmic. Do you happen to know how extensive it is (for en.wiktionary)?

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AlanF_US AlanF_US 21 days ago March 16, 2020 at 5:50 PM link permalink

> I've searched in tatoeba's source code for stemming, and I've found it uses snowball if I read the source right.

Well, Tatoeba uses Manticore, and Manticore uses Snowball, so basically yes.

> My understanding is that "chiamassero" and "chiamare" and "chiameremmo" are all stemmed to "chiam". However, what I'd really want is for them to be stemmed to "chiamare", so my platform could look it up in a dictionary directly.

That's not stemming, but I can see how that would be a useful transformation.

> Can I just look at the closest match in a dictionary for the stemmed form, for most languages, and get the correct word?

You would need to write an algorithm to define "closest match" to match your needs. For instance, you could define things so that you always added "are" to the stemmed form, then looked for a match, and if that didn't work, you could add "ere", and so on. I don't imagine this being implemented within Tatoeba, but you could do it in software on your side.

> It is my understanding that wiktionary's feature is based on manual contributions and is not algorithmic.

Yes, although I'm sure that people use algorithms to help them produce the manual contributions.

> Do you happen to know how extensive it is (for en.wiktionary)?

Well, for Russian, based on my experience, I estimate that for about 95% of relatively common inflected forms, someone has added a link to the dictionary form. Where that is not the case, it is often possible to find a link by looking at pages with similar words.

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because_maybe because_maybe 20 days ago March 16, 2020 at 7:10 PM link permalink

> That's not stemming, but I can see how that would be a useful transformation.

As it's probably abundantly clear by now, I have no background in linguistics :P Sorry for the terminology barrier.

> You would need to write an algorithm to define "closest match" to match your needs. For instance, you could define things so that you always added "are" to the stemmed form, then looked for a match, and if that didn't work, you could add "ere", and so on. I don't imagine this being implemented within Tatoeba, but you could do it in software on your side.

Do you happen to know where I should be looking, or what the right term would be, to find a library or an API to do this in my place? I'm currently learning Japanese by myself because I've been blessed by mecab, and that's what does all the heavy lifting in my platform :) but when I'm done with Japanese, I'd like to learn another language, possibly german, swedish or icelandic, not sure yet. I don't know what to search for - I just know it's something similar to what mecab does for japanese.

Lastly, an unrelated question. I see you're an admin so this goes right to the best person to answer it :)

I've tried translating a bunch of sentences to Italian; however, after asking a Italian friend whether they sounded OK or not - since I'm a bit of a shut in and use almost only English online - and some sounded a bit unnatural.

That said, is it OK if I contribute anyway - to the sentences I feel more confident I know a good translation - or is it counterproductive for the project to have translation which are bad?

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TRANG TRANG 20 days ago March 16, 2020 at 8:53 PM link permalink

> However, what I'd really want is for them to be stemmed to "chiamare", so
> my platform could look it up in a dictionary directly.

It seems what you want is lemmatization.

> Do you happen to know where I should be looking, or what the right term
> would be, to find a library or an API to do this in my place?

I would google things like "lemmatizer" or "NLP libraries" (NLP meaning "natural language processing").

> That said, is it OK if I contribute anyway - to the sentences I feel more
> confident I know a good translation - or is it counterproductive for the
> project to have translation which are bad?

Everyone will inevitably create bad translations at some point. It becomes counterproductive when the proportion of bad translations that you contribute becomes too much. It is difficult to really quantify it because it's not a fixed threshold.

My advice is that you contribute as much as you want but always try your best for every translation you submit. If you have doubts about the quality and accuracy of your translation, then don't add it just yet. Take a bit more time to figure out what could be wrong, what could be improved.

If you are confident of your translation but it turns out to be a bad translation, then it's okay. We are not asking people to be perfect. You did your best, you are human, you can make mistakes. You "just" have to learn from your mistakes (and of course fix them).

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because_maybe because_maybe 20 days ago March 16, 2020 at 10:09 PM link permalink

> My advice is that you contribute as much as you want but always try your best for every translation you submit. If you have doubts about the quality and accuracy of your translation, then don't add it just yet. Take a bit more time to figure out what could be wrong, what could be improved.

That's definitely the base case. I wonder if I could ask for help from some Italian on tatoeba to see if my translations are good or not? If 19 out of 20 sound like what a native Italian would write or say, I can be confident in translating a few hundred more. :)

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AlanF_US AlanF_US 20 days ago, edited 20 days ago March 16, 2020 at 10:45 PM, edited March 16, 2020 at 10:51 PM link permalink

Please take a look at this page:

https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...ow/non-native#

Yes, if you find an Italian speaker who is willing to check your sentences, that's great. Just make sure they can handle the volume of sentences that you write without getting overwhelmed.

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because_maybe because_maybe 20 days ago March 16, 2020 at 10:52 PM link permalink

Yep, that makes sense to me. But I am native. I've lived all my life in Italy, I'm still living in Italy, and I only plan on translating from English to Italian.

I still would like to validate that I'm writing natural sounding sentences, because you could make the argument that since most of the media I consume is not in Italian that makes me "rusty" in a way.

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AlanF_US AlanF_US 20 days ago March 17, 2020 at 12:42 AM link permalink

I see. That sounds good to me.

TRANG TRANG 19 days ago March 17, 2020 at 6:53 PM link permalink

> I wonder if I could ask for help from some Italian on tatoeba to see if my
> translations are good or not?

Our main Italian contributor is Guybush88 and I'm pretty sure he will be proofreading your translations as you add more of them. You can contact him via private message otherwise, if you want to make sure he notices your contributions :)

https://tatoeba.org/eng/user/profile/Guybrush88

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because_maybe because_maybe 19 days ago March 17, 2020 at 7:19 PM link permalink

Thanks a lot! I was trying to think of a way to ask who to ask without being impolite, but I'll surely send him a message then :)

because_maybe because_maybe 18 days ago March 19, 2020 at 3:05 PM link permalink

I'm not getting a reply - can I assume he's going to take a look at them anyway in his regular work on the website and tell me if the quality's not great?

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Guybrush88 Guybrush88 18 days ago March 19, 2020 at 3:11 PM link permalink

Sorry for my late reply, I've been busy elsewhere these days, I took a look at some of your sentences and they seem perfect to me. When I'll have a bit more time, I'll reply in a better way to your pm

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because_maybe because_maybe 18 days ago March 19, 2020 at 3:22 PM link permalink

Oh, no worries! No hurry at all - I didn't want to bother you; take your time with the reply :)

deniko deniko 21 days ago March 16, 2020 at 9:37 AM link permalink

Will the new design for the sentences eventually replace the old design for everyone, or will the old design be kept as an option, as it is now?

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gillux gillux 21 days ago March 16, 2020 at 11:04 AM link permalink

There will be a period of transition, but sooner or later we will get rid of the old design entirely.

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deniko deniko 21 days ago, edited 21 days ago March 16, 2020 at 11:06 AM, edited March 16, 2020 at 11:07 AM link permalink

Thanks for replying. Sad news, I guess.

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gillux gillux 21 days ago March 16, 2020 at 11:27 AM link permalink

Are you being melancholic?

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deniko deniko 21 days ago March 16, 2020 at 11:31 AM link permalink

You can put it like this, if you wish. The new design is terrible and clumsy to use. I'd hate to have it, but, obviously, we won't have a choice, which I accept.

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Aiji Aiji 21 days ago March 16, 2020 at 12:29 PM link permalink

Well, you could explain what is terrible and clumsy to use, and we could see how things can be improved, as a first step :)

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deniko deniko 21 days ago, edited 21 days ago March 16, 2020 at 2:06 PM, edited March 16, 2020 at 4:10 PM link permalink

1. By default, some translations are hidden in the new design and I need to click "Show N more translations" every time in my search results:

https://i.imgur.com/YyBRn8s.png

It is very annoying and very counterproductive. I do understand why someone might have this preference, but can we make it optional? Create another checkbox - "Expand all the translations". By default, if the user doesn't bother to change it, the sentences will be displayed as they're displayed now, but some of us can make it more comfortable for us.

I am aware you can permanently limit yourself to just a bunch of languages in your profile, and this issue will become less important, but I'm going to do it because I enjoy being able to see all the translations.

EDIT: I'm also aware of this setting:

"Display a link to expand/collapse translations when there are too many translations"

But it seems to be working for the old format only. I guess if you make it work for the new and the old format, that would resolve this problem.

2. The second thing that bothers me A LOT are the words "Translations" and "Translations of Translations":

https://i.imgur.com/rZCd1yi.png

I understand why they are there - a lot of users, especially the non-regulars or the relatively new contributors are confused by the whole idea of "gray" links and report the indirect translations as wrong while they're not wrong, they're just translations of translations and they don't have to match the "original" exactly. But for more experienced folks who understand and embrace the concept of indirect translations those words are just a nuisance, completely unnecessary information in words that can be perfectly color-coded. Could we optionally remove those words, leaving them there by default?

3. A less important issue - the new format is just less compact than the old one. Compare (this is the same sentence with the same translations):

https://i.imgur.com/4yuO9YJ.png

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Aiji Aiji 20 days ago March 17, 2020 at 12:55 AM link permalink

Thank you for your always useful feedback. :)

Well, I don't think there is so many terrible things there!
1. This setting needs improvement. Notice that the new design isn't complete yet so functionalities may be behave incorrectly or be missing. Even after the new design implementation, that might still be the case and we hope we can count on people's feedback to correct and improve them. As gillux mentioned, there will be a transition period, but the old design will only disappear when we will be absolutely sure that nothing's gone missing in the new design.

2. That's your personal opinion, so there isn't much to say. I can't say two. The first one is that of course, we can discuss that point. The second is that I'm not sure for how long you've been using the new design, but maybe after a while, you'll get used to it and those words won't bother you anymore. Once you're used to the new design, they might get easily ignored by your brain.
You also mentioned color-coded sentences. That's is also currently under discussion.

3. Yeah, I've noticed that too. Now, we need more scrolling. Not a really impacting issue, but it has been reported.

I hope I could answer your points clearly.

As a final, more general, note, change is always a difficult thing, and we expect a lot of complaints from a lot of people. However, if people could start by "here what I like and dislike now" before the "this crap is terrible", that would be appreciated and we would be able to discuss with a better set of mind. Thanks.

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deniko deniko 20 days ago March 17, 2020 at 10:24 AM link permalink

Hi Aiji,

I really hope you're not part of the development team, or at least not a decision maker of what will be implemented or not.

Your smug, dismissive and passive-aggressive way of dealing with our concerns is not ideal.

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Aiji Aiji 20 days ago March 17, 2020 at 12:22 PM link permalink

Your active-aggressive way of expressing your concerns wasn't ideal either.

Now, I hope I could give you an overview of what was currently being discussed on GitHub (mainly) and that a part of your concerns were already discussed or will be, and if my answer seemed too aggressive, I apologize. My thanks for your feedback were sincere, as I think you're one of those who very often gives precious information regarding how we could improve things.

AntonKhorev AntonKhorev 21 days ago March 16, 2020 at 11:53 AM link permalink

How do I get specific languages to be above "show more"? Do I need now either to always click "show more" or to hide most of the languages completely?

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Aiji Aiji 21 days ago March 16, 2020 at 12:33 PM link permalink

You can deactivate this link in your settings: https://tatoeba.org/eng/user/settings

If you want it activated but would appreciate it to behave differently, please elaborate on what you would like to have and *why*.

From the same settings page, you can also choose a list of languages to only display sentences in those languages (all others will be hidden).

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AntonKhorev AntonKhorev 21 days ago March 16, 2020 at 3:52 PM link permalink

If I choose a list of languages, all other languages will be completely hidden. They won't be displayed if I click "show more". Here are my options if I don't hide languages completely:

Best option (not available) - show my preferred languages first; if there's a lot of translations, put everything else under "show more".

Worse (old design) - show everything; it's up to me to find sentences in my preferred languages among all others

Even worse (new design) - hide some translations no matter if they are in my preferred languages or not; I have to always click "show more" and then do everything I had to do in the previous option, so it's more work. Also, the list takes more space.

As noted above by deniko, it's impossible to disable "show more" in the new design. But even if it would have been possible, new design would still be worse for sentences with many translations.

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deniko deniko 21 days ago, edited 21 days ago March 16, 2020 at 4:15 PM, edited March 16, 2020 at 4:21 PM link permalink

> Best option (not available) - show my preferred languages first; if there's a lot of translations, put everything else under "show more".

That would actually be a cool solution. Thanks for this idea.

I would still prefer to be able to expand the sentences by default without clicking, but if you can actually list the languages that you want to be displayed first that would really be awesome. And would be cool if you can specify the order in which they're displayed.

For example, if I specify

eng,spa,fra,ita

In my profile, I would see the translations in those languages in that order, and only after those 4 languages I'd see all the other translations in their default (alphabetical, according to the language code) order.

The existing solution of completely hiding all the other languages is just not satisfying at all, at least for me.

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marafon marafon 21 days ago March 16, 2020 at 6:18 PM link permalink

I agree with Denis and Anton. The new design is extremely frustrating.

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TRANG TRANG 20 days ago March 16, 2020 at 6:32 PM link permalink

Is it for the same reasons as them or do you have other reasons?

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marafon marafon 20 days ago March 16, 2020 at 6:36 PM link permalink

The reasons are the same. They described them very well and I have nothing to add so far.

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TRANG TRANG 20 days ago March 16, 2020 at 6:40 PM link permalink

Then please see my reply to deniko below.
https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/sh...#message_34492

I have the same questions for you as I have for deniko.

Most importantly the last question:
> Could you provide a scenario of your activities in Tatoeba that can make
> us understand "Okay, indeed, if the translations were not expanded by
> default, it would be annoying"?

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marafon marafon 20 days ago, edited 19 days ago March 17, 2020 at 6:03 PM, edited March 17, 2020 at 11:49 PM link permalink

When I see a sentence in a foreign language I know, first of all I look whether it has already been translated into Russian or not.
If yes, I proofread the existing Russian translation(s) (not only for translation accuracy but also for punctuation, spelling and grammar). Sometimes I add my own translation(s) as well.
If not, I add one or several Russian translations.
If I see that my newly added sentences can be linked to the existing translations in the other foreign languages I know, I do it right away or later from this page:
https://tatoeba.org/rus/activit...ces_of/marafon
Besides that, I check the indirect Russian translations and link them to the main sentence if they match.
I also check the indirect translations in the other languages. Sometimes it helps me find some linking errors like this one:
https://tatoeba.org/rus/sentenc...omment-1165179
Just looking at the indirect link here:
https://tatoeba.org/rus/sentences/show/5918489
helped me find this error.
I'm also interested in some languages that are not listed in my profile. For instance, I enjoy seeing the Ukrainian, Czech or Italian translations.

It's just one of my activities in Tatoeba. I'm not sure I described it well enough but I hope it helps you understand why I find the new design and particularly the button "Show more" so frustrating.

I used to love the random sentence on the main page. But not anymore.

p.s.
> Now it works super weird - I add
> 3 Ukrainian translations out of habit, only to realize 20 seconds later
> it already had Ukrainian translations, they were just hidden.

That was my experience, too.

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TRANG TRANG 19 days ago March 17, 2020 at 8:13 PM link permalink

I created the following issue on GitHub:
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2210

If you were able to increase the limit of translations that you can see, what would be your limit? Would it be higher than 50?

On a side note, your description actually brings up other fundamental issues in the overall design of Tatoeba. It's a problem with the way Tatoeba is structured and organized. But addressing that problem is a whole other story so I won't delve into the details here.

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marafon marafon 19 days ago March 17, 2020 at 8:19 PM link permalink

50 would be enough, I think.

marafon marafon 19 days ago, edited 19 days ago March 17, 2020 at 9:23 PM, edited March 18, 2020 at 2:07 AM link permalink

Btw, now I don't see the way to link the indirect translations to the main sentence. That's what I used to do all the time.

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TRANG TRANG 19 days ago March 17, 2020 at 9:30 PM link permalink

The linking feature has not been implemented yet in the new sentence design.

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marafon marafon 19 days ago March 17, 2020 at 9:46 PM link permalink

OK

PaulP PaulP 19 days ago March 18, 2020 at 11:26 AM link permalink

And also the feature of reviewing?

Here an example:

https://tatoeba.org/epo/sentences/show/8604386

This sentence has been corrected, so my review has to be changed from red to green. For doing this I need to switch back to the old design, no?

Sorry if that has been answered before. I didn’t see it.

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 19 days ago March 18, 2020 at 3:07 PM link permalink

That will be implemented later :)

TRANG TRANG 20 days ago March 16, 2020 at 6:29 PM link permalink

> Best option (not available) - show my preferred languages first;

A similar idea has been mentioned before:
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tato...ment-505311261

Additionally there has been some debate regarding the order in which translations should be displayed:
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tato...ment-577132284

> And would be cool if you can specify the order in which they're displayed.

That's also my opinion.

Based on the various discussions on GitHub, it became quite clear that we need to provide a better way for users to define the languages they want to see in Tatoeba and what is the priority of each language.

I'm still wondering however what is your use case for preferring to have all translations displayed by default. Do you confirm that it is because most of the time, the translations you are interested in are not displayed at the top? Or is there another reason?

Also, which of your activities does it affect the most? Is it slowing you down for translating sentences? For linking sentences? For proofreading? For something else?

Could you provide a scenario of your activities in Tatoeba that can make us understand "Okay, indeed, if the translations were not expanded by default, it would be annoying"? Right now I must say I can't imagine this scenario.

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Thanuir Thanuir 20 days ago March 17, 2020 at 5:53 AM link permalink

Joskus, yksinkertaisten lauseiden tapauksessa, löydän uusia kieliä joita voin linkittää. Esimerkiksi suomalais-ugrilaisten kielten numerot ovat hyvin samanlaisia, enkä tiennyt niistä kaikista ennen kuin selasin kielilistaa läpi sen lauseen kohdalla, joka listaa numerot ykkösestä kymmeneen.

Samoin olen joskus linkittänyt satunnaisen latinankielisen lauseen, vaikka en suuremmin latinaa osaakaan, jos olen sattunut tietämään mitä se tarkoittaa.

Usein selatessani Tatoebaa luen lauseita kielillä, joita en osaa tarkasti, saadakseni tuntumaa niihin ja kenties oppiakseni jotain. Tämä kattaa monet romaaniset ja germaaniset kielet, suomalais-ugrilaiset kielet ja latinan. En osaa kääntää näistä tai edes lukea näitä itsenäisesti ja näiden näkemin on huomattavasti vähemmän tärkeää kuin niiden kielten, joita osaan jonkin verran.

deniko deniko 20 days ago March 17, 2020 at 10:09 AM link permalink

> Also, which of your activities does it affect the most? Is it slowing you down for translating sentences? For linking sentences? For proofreading? For something else?

Linking mostly, not proofreading.

When I link, just browse through Ukrainian sentence using the search feature to give me random sentences, and link them to all sentences they can be linked directly.

Also, when I stumble upon some interesting expression I really like searching for it here and check out translations to all languages I kind of understand, even those not listed in my profile just because I'm curious. I'd say that activity is very important for me.

Also, I used to enjoy having the random sentence on the main page. I don't know why, but I've always thought it to be a fascinating feature. I've stumbled upon some real gems there a few times, something I would have never found if I was trying to search for something. I would occasionally translate them. Now it works super weird - I add 3 Ukrainian translations out of habit, only to realize 20 seconds later it already had Ukrainian translations, they were just hidden. I turned on the random sentence because all this was very annoying.

So, in general, I understand why someone might prefer the new format, and I understand why you would prefer this to be the default format for the unregistered users and the default format for everyone else, but I kindly ask either to leave the old format for us, or at least add t those two features as optional features:

1. Expand them automatically, if my settings say so.
2. Remove the words "Translations" and "Translations of translations" as completely unnecessary and distracting (again, leave them there by default, but please allow us to get rid of them).

Everything else doesn't really bother me too much. Making the new format more compact or dense is nice, but not really a deal-breaker. Same about the feature mentioned by Anton - allow users to configure which translations to display first. That's a cool feature, I'd love to have it, but purely psychologically I feel like it's less important for me.

One thing to get a cool new feature - yeah, that's nice, but I understand why it's not there - another thing - taking a nicely functioning design and breaking it to something barely functional - that feels bad, like a giant step back.

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Thanuir Thanuir 20 days ago March 17, 2020 at 10:36 AM link permalink

Olen samaa mieltä kohdan 1 ja motivaation kanssa.

Kohta 2 olisi myös minulle parempi, mutta toisaalta ylimääräisten sanojen aiheuttama harmi on hyvin pientä, ja liika valinnaisuus käyttäjillä aiheuttaa kasvavaa työtaakkaa ohjelmoijille. Niinpä ehdotan, että vaikka tiiviimpi käyttöliittymä olisi mukavampi, ei ehdotus kaksi luultavasti ole pitemmässä juoksussa toteuttamisen arvoinen.

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deniko deniko 20 days ago March 17, 2020 at 10:49 AM link permalink

Thanks, Thanuir, you can be right about point 2, but I just feel they take space and they don't do anything useful for the experienced users. The direct and indirect links are already colorcoded by the color of the arrows (or > in the new design). It feels right to use words where they belong, for the important information - the sentences themselves - and icons and other mnemonics for technical information and actions.

All that feels consistent.

Now, using words to distinguish direct and indirect links just seems to be very inconsistent and it makes me uncomfortable. I will absolutely get used to the less compact design, but I just liked the consistency of everything else.

While this might be way less important for others, I still feel like it's something easy to implement and hopefully I won't be the only one who chooses to opt out from seeing the words "Translations" and "Translations of Translations".

I wonder whether I can join the development team just for this single task? I'm a software developer by profession, after all, although I do lack any web-development experience.

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TRANG TRANG 20 days ago March 17, 2020 at 12:28 PM link permalink

> I wonder whether I can join the development team just for this single
> task? I'm a software developer by profession, after all, although I do lack
> any web-development experience.

Tatoeba is open source. You (and anyone) can make a pull request on GitHub.

Please see our guide for people who want to contribute as developers:
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tato...as-a-developer

TRANG TRANG 20 days ago March 17, 2020 at 1:42 PM link permalink

You can by the way use the Stylish add-on to make some readjustment of the UI to better suit your personal needs.

https://userstyles.org/

You would need to know CSS, but hiding certain elements or making the UI more compact would be totally possible with Stylish.

You can find various styles that people already created for Tatoeba in the Stylish website, by searching "tatoeba":
https://userstyles.org/styles/b...eba&type=false

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deniko deniko 20 days ago, edited 20 days ago March 17, 2020 at 2:44 PM, edited March 17, 2020 at 2:48 PM link permalink

> You can by the way use the Stylish add-on to make some readjustment of the UI to better suit your personal needs.

Thanks, that actually sounds cool. CK also mentioned Stylish to me today, so I guess I'll give it a whirl.

TRANG TRANG 20 days ago March 17, 2020 at 12:24 PM link permalink

Just to be clear, I was not asking you those questions in defense for keeping the new design as it is. We will always try our best to provide the best possible user experience for everyone. But to do so, we need to understand how people use Tatoeba.

Users tend to go straight off saying "I would like things to be this way" or "Is is possible to implement this", but that is not helpful to us. We don't make changes just because someone prefers things to be a certain way.

Unless you are a trained UX/UI designer, you will not necessarily think of the best possible solution for a UI problem. You will suggest solutions based on your own habits and your own biases and the things you suggest may have a negative impacts on others without you realizing it.

The best thing you can do to help us provide you, and everyone, the best possible user experience, is to describe how you use Tatoeba, a little like you are telling a story. You can always provide a solution, but without the story behind it, it doesn't help us figure out the best course of action. That's what my questions were aimed to do: to extract this story.

Now more concretely, you shared this bit of story:

> I've stumbled upon some real gems there a few times, something
> I would have never found if I was trying to search for something.
> I would occasionally translate them. Now it works super weird - I add
> 3 Ukrainian translations out of habit, only to realize 20 seconds later
> it already had Ukrainian translations, they were just hidden.

So this is useful information to me. It is a lot more useful than hearing you say you want to be able to have all translations expanded by default.

It explains why you prefer to have the translations expanded and it also explains why you prefer to have a more compact design. And it helps me understand where precisely are the problems.

Now what I can say is that having the translations expanded by default isn't great if you have tons of translations. The more translations, the more effort for you to spot the existing Ukrainian translations.

For that specific problem that you described, a better solution, in my opinion, would be that whenever you select the translation language, it displays the existing translations in that language.

Having all translations expanded does solve that problem but it is not a solution that will scale in the long run. It works only because at the moment, most sentences don't have more than 10 translations.

But one day, if Tatoeba continues to grow (which I hope it will), we may have 100+ translations on the majority of the sentences, and displaying them all is not exactly usable. There's still time until we get to that point, which means if expanding all translations is the cheapest solution, we can still go for that solution. But that shouldn't stop us from trying to figure out better ones.

For instance we could make an option to allow users to choose how many translations are displayed by default. We chose 5 arbitrarily, but some people like you may need this limit to be higher, perhaps up to 20 or 50 even. We have a similar option for the number of sentences per page (we chose to have 10 by default, but users are able to increase it up to 100). I think that would be longer-term solution than keeping the "expand all translations" option.

CK CK 19 days ago March 18, 2020 at 4:05 AM link permalink

These have all been updated using last Saturday's exported data.

Bilingual Sentence Pairs
http://www.manythings.org/bilingual/

Tab-delimited Bilingual Sentence Pairs
http://www.manythings.org/anki/

Audio Sentence Player
http://www.manythings.org/sentences/audioplayer/


Thanks to everyone who has helped by translating sentences on List 907 into your own native languages.

About List 907
http://tatoeba.ueuo.com/about907.html

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Pandaa Pandaa 19 days ago March 18, 2020 at 7:06 AM link permalink

Why 907? What's its meaning?

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 19 days ago March 18, 2020 at 8:53 AM link permalink

It's the number of the list.

All the lists has an unique ID (just note the last part of them which you'll find some numbers). That list's ID is 907.

gillux gillux 21 days ago, edited 21 days ago March 16, 2020 at 11:18 AM, edited March 16, 2020 at 11:24 AM link permalink

What’s New on Tatoeba? - Your weekly recap #8


UPDATES

The highlight of this update is about the new design. What we call the "new design" is an ongoing project that aims to make Tatoeba usable on mobile, generally more attractive and to solve a number of bugs inherent to the current design. We thought this new design is getting mature enough to be used by a broader audience, and we’d like to gather more real-life feedback from our community. That’s why this update introduces a message over the random sentence block to more proactively suggest trying it out.

Over the last months, Trang has been working very hard on porting features from the old design to the new design, including the "Add a translation" and "Add to list" sentence buttons, and individual lists pages. Thanks to her for the implementation, to gillux and rumpelstilzchen for code reviewing, to everyone who have been testing and sending us feedback, and to Mozilla for financing us. Constructive feedback about the new design is very welcome.

Other than that:

• Every wall post now have a "Send message" button to easily send a private message to the poster. Thanks to Aiji for the suggestion and implementation.

• The default sort order of the "View all tags" page has been fixed. Thanks to CK for reporting the problem and gillux for fixing it.

• A bug that prevented guests from playing audio on indirect translations has been discovered and fixed by gillux.

• rumpelstilzchen and gillux did some cleanup in the code base. This maintenance work is invisible to users, but it always feels nice for current and future developers to work in a clean place, doesn’t it?


ON THE WALL

• CK started a discussion about translations in the same language as original, which turned into a debate about corpus diversity: https://tatoeba.org/fra/wall/show_message/34400

• Thanuir posted a proposal about reviewing sentences in a way that would allow regular members to better contribute to the proofreading effort: https://tatoeba.org/fra/wall/show_message/34378


CONTRIBUTIONS AND LANGUAGES

• 12,207 sentences have been contributed last week.

• A new language was added: Jewish Babylonian Aramaic. This brings the number of supported languages to 351! Thanks to shekitten for requesting the language and providing the flag, gillux for reviewing and Ricardo14 for coordinating.

• Some of our members helped translating the website (crediting using Transifex usernames):
• In Swedish: ajje
• In Norwegian: vikvaering
• In Kirundi: dorée
• In French: Rockaround, RyckRichards, gillux and sacredceltic
• In Spanish: arh
• In Gronings: MarijnKp
• In Portuguese: RyckRichards
• In Russian: fjay69 and sharptoothed
• In Turkish: Gulo_Luscus
• In German: Pfirsichbäumchen
• In Breton: Iriep
• In Esperanto: PaulP
• In Finnish: Silja and Thanuir
• In Italian: Guybrush88
• In Dutch: 58karel and michel.smts2
• In Interligua: shekitten
• In Hungarian: Wydy99
• In Marathi: sabretou
• In Japanese: small_snow

Thank you very much everybody! You too can help us translate the website to your language by joining us on Transifex: https://www.transifex.com/tatoe...ite/dashboard/ and check this article on the wiki https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...ce-translation

If you’re especially happy with something, don’t hesitate to personally thank people who participated in this update. Most of us are working in the shadow but we are always glad to hear your feedback.

-------------

Fun fact: if we compress the history of the universe (from the big bang to now) into one year, the History as we know it spans for less than 30 seconds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Calendar

Last week recap: https://tatoeba.org/fra/wall/show_message/34374
See this recap on the blog: https://blog.tatoeba.org/2020/0...ecap-8_16.html

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 20 days ago, edited 20 days ago March 17, 2020 at 4:21 AM, edited March 17, 2020 at 10:21 AM link permalink

As a side note, I'd like to *thank everyone* who joined us on Transifex and everyone who have been translating Tatoeba UI already!

Aiji Aiji 20 days ago March 17, 2020 at 6:59 AM link permalink

Thanks for the recap !

Some interesting info in there :)

CK CK 20 days ago March 17, 2020 at 2:04 AM link permalink

* A Suggested Improvement to the Advanced Search **

Currently, "has audio" has 3 options--any, no, yes

I think it would be useful to add another option to show sentences with audio first (if any), followed by those that don't.

Do other members think this might be a good idea?

If so, I'll add this as a GitHub issue.


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Aiji Aiji 20 days ago March 17, 2020 at 4:23 AM link permalink

I think you already opened a ticket https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1014

More generally, this reasoning can be applied to other yes / no options as well.

Thanuir Thanuir 20 days ago March 17, 2020 at 5:58 AM link permalink

Tämä olisi hyödyllistä (myös kaikkien muiden laatuehtojen tapauksessa).

Hybrid Hybrid 22 days ago, edited 22 days ago March 15, 2020 at 5:18 PM, edited March 15, 2020 at 5:30 PM link permalink

Hi,

In the new design, could we get an option to add a tag? This tag would not disappear after adding the sentence, so I could add many sentences with the same tag.

Thank you,
Hybrid

Also, it would be even better if we could have a checkbox on the right when looking at our list of sentences (https://tatoeba.org/eng/activit...es_of/Hybrid). This checkbox could be used to add tags to many sentences, or to move many of them to a list. There should also be a "select all" button at the top. Gmail has this feature.

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TRANG TRANG 21 days ago March 15, 2020 at 9:13 PM link permalink

Could you give examples tags that you want to apply on a sentence upon creation and tags you want to apply from the page listing your sentences?

The request to be able to tag more easily isn't new but it helps to have a more concrete idea of what you are using tags for.

Some related GitHub issues:
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1962
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1923

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Hybrid Hybrid 21 days ago March 15, 2020 at 10:23 PM link permalink

Thank you for replying. For example, I want to add tags like: "by VOAnews", "by Arthur Conan Doyle", "by NASA" or "by Lucy Maud Montgomery". These are the tags I want to add in both cases. Right now it takes longer to tag sentences from VOAnews than to add them, so I've stopped tagging them.

Thank you,
Hybrid

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Aiji Aiji 21 days ago March 16, 2020 at 4:07 AM link permalink

As a side note, you could use a list to keep track of sentences you want to tag later, when a more convenient way will be available. The roles of tags and lists are quite different but it's easier to add sentences to list for now. Once a new way of adding tags will be implemented, you could massively tag your list and delete it.

gillux gillux 21 days ago March 16, 2020 at 11:33 AM link permalink

What if we had a page similar to the current "add sentences to a list" but for tags? I mean a page that allows you to choose one or more tags, and then create as many sentences as you want. The sentences created from that page would automatically be tagged upon creation.

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 21 days ago March 16, 2020 at 11:56 AM link permalink

It would help a loooot!

Hybrid Hybrid 20 days ago March 17, 2020 at 12:14 AM link permalink

Hi gillux,

That's very similar to what I proposed. It would help.

Ricardo14 Ricardo14 25 days ago March 12, 2020 at 1:17 AM link permalink

Note to the UI translators:

New strings have been added on Transifex and are available to be translated.
In order to do so, please follow this link: https://www.transifex.com/tatoe...ite/dashboard/

In case you never translated the UI (user interface) and would like to help, please leave me a private message - https://tatoeba.org/eng/private...rite/Ricardo14

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 23 days ago, edited 23 days ago March 13, 2020 at 7:32 PM, edited March 14, 2020 at 4:26 PM link permalink

The following languages got the language "ready for use" status (got all the strings translated) as for today (March 13, 2020):

✔️ Breton
✔️ Dutch
✔️ Esperanto
✔️ German
✔️ Portuguese
✔️ Turkish

Update: The following languages got the "ready for use" status as for today (March 14, 2020):

✔️ Russian
✔️ Spanish

Source: https://www.transifex.com/tatoe...ite/dashboard/

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 22 days ago March 15, 2020 at 9:33 AM link permalink

Update (March 15, 2020 6:30 a.m. BRT (GMT -3))

The following language got the "ready for use status":

✔️ Finnish

:D

Ricardo14 Ricardo14 21 days ago March 16, 2020 at 1:00 PM link permalink

Update (March 16, 2020 10:00 a.m. BRT (GMT -3))

The following languages got the "ready for use status":

✔️ French
✔️ Italian

:D

PaulP PaulP 23 days ago March 14, 2020 at 3:17 PM link permalink

Ricardo, you are aware that UI translators automatically get a message from Transifex when sentences have been added, no?

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Thanuir Thanuir 23 days ago, edited 23 days ago March 14, 2020 at 3:42 PM, edited March 14, 2020 at 3:42 PM link permalink

Tämä lienee valinnaista, koska minä en saa viestejä sieltä. (En niitä kaipaakaan.)

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PaulP PaulP 23 days ago March 14, 2020 at 3:46 PM link permalink

Tio estas ebla. Tion mi ne sciis. Pardonu.

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TRANG TRANG 23 days ago March 14, 2020 at 4:04 PM link permalink

You have a point though. Anyone who is a translator on Transifex could make sure to have the proper notifications enabled in Transifex, if they want to be informed whenever new strings are uploaded.

There would then be no real need to make such announcements on the Wall.

ajje ajje 22 days ago March 14, 2020 at 9:24 PM link permalink

How come there is no support for spell-check in the "Add new sentences" field?

When I supply translations to the sentence (or writing this text), it is possible to have the spellchecker on but not when adding sentences. I think adding this feature would help tremendously with raising the standard of the contributions.

By the way, I use Firefox, don't know if that has anything to do with it.

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AlanF_US AlanF_US 22 days ago, edited 22 days ago March 14, 2020 at 11:22 PM, edited March 14, 2020 at 11:29 PM link permalink

Apparently, Firefox's spellchecker only executes for text fields that are more than one line long. This would explain the behavior you're seeing.

https://support.mozilla.org/en-...-spell-checker

I'm not sure whether it's feasible for us to make the "Add new sentences" field more than one line long. You could try using a spellchecker add-on rather than the default one that comes with Firefox. Or you could try using a different web browser. Or you could try both. Maybe those add-on tools don't limit spellchecking to fields that are more than one line long.

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ajje ajje 22 days ago March 14, 2020 at 11:35 PM link permalink

Yeah, I tried now with Safari and it works fine. I might actually switch to Safari as my Tatoeba browser since it detects the language automatically so there's less hassle when changing input language.

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AlanF_US AlanF_US 22 days ago March 15, 2020 at 12:21 AM link permalink

That's good.

soliloquist soliloquist 22 days ago March 15, 2020 at 12:21 PM link permalink

> How come there is no support for spell-check in the "Add new sentences" field?

I couldn't reproduce it. Both English and Turkish spellcheckers seem to work fine on Firefox 74.

https://streamable.com/7ov6p

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ajje ajje 22 days ago March 15, 2020 at 2:59 PM link permalink

Wow, you're right. For some reason the "Check Spelling" was deactivated by default.

Either way, I think I'll still stick to Safari. As I mentioned earlier it automatically detects the language so I don't have to manually switch back and forth between languages. Thank you for shedding light on this matter!

deniko deniko 24 days ago, edited 24 days ago March 13, 2020 at 5:16 PM, edited March 13, 2020 at 5:16 PM link permalink

I wonder whether this account has been hacked.

vikvaering

Their today's English sentences are very weird, nothing like they used to add in the past.

https://tatoeba.org/eng/activit..._of/vikvaering

They all call certain people fascists, if you google those people's names they seem to be related to Algeria/Kabyle, and this looks like an attempt to push some agenda and not to contribute to the tatoeba's corpus - like to associate certain people with the term "fascist" in the search engines.

A few people do something like that here, I believe, but this case seems to be isolated because the person has no connections with Algeria and that's why I believe the account has been hacked.

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deniko deniko 24 days ago March 13, 2020 at 5:19 PM link permalink

I forgot to tag @vikvaering just in case I'm wrong and they have really added those sentences themselves.

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vikvaering vikvaering 23 days ago March 13, 2020 at 7:21 PM link permalink

I added those sentences.

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shekitten shekitten 23 days ago March 14, 2020 at 10:51 AM link permalink

So, what was the intention? To make the word "fascist" positive?

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vikvaering vikvaering 23 days ago March 14, 2020 at 11:41 AM link permalink

Nope.

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Silja Silja 23 days ago March 14, 2020 at 12:18 PM link permalink

So, please then enlighten us and tell us what is your purpose.

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vikvaering vikvaering 23 days ago March 14, 2020 at 2:05 PM link permalink

I felt like it.

Aiji Aiji 23 days ago, edited 23 days ago March 14, 2020 at 2:12 PM, edited March 14, 2020 at 2:12 PM link permalink

My guess is that's just a mix of answering what happened there #8603765, and people being selfish pri... I mean, enjoying their freedom :) Nothing new under the sun, off we go.