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Wall (5,984 threads)


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wallebot wallebot 26 days ago August 28, 2020 at 8:13:18 PM UTC link Permalink

Hi, Tatoebist!!

This a litle offtopic, but is interesting in the language are.

Artificial Inteligence give many interesting steps.

Very litle ago, to write correct text was very dificult or imposible for computers.

But GPT-3 can write human stile text at very high level. Is really incredible.

HEre you have a video. Speak in Spanish but text is in english
Enjoy it!

I hope like yours.

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 25 days ago August 29, 2020 at 9:04:20 PM UTC link Permalink

That's very interesting, thanks a lot for sharing!

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wallebot wallebot 24 days ago August 31, 2020 at 1:19:59 PM UTC link Permalink

Gracias por hacermelo saber. dudaba si estaba un poco fuera de lugar.
You are welcome.

gillux gillux August 24, 2020 August 24, 2020 at 4:42:53 PM UTC link Permalink

I’d like to start a discussion about how the Wall could be improved: (I preferred to use Github for text formatting.) Feel free to answer here or over there.

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Guybrush88 Guybrush88 August 24, 2020, edited August 24, 2020 August 24, 2020 at 6:19:49 PM UTC, edited August 24, 2020 at 6:20:21 PM UTC link Permalink

for now, the improvement I'd like to see the most for the Wall is this one:

Without a proper search, it may become very long and annoying to search for information that has been already posted. From time to time, I'd like to search for some information, and, when I remember that it might have been already posted, it can be a quite long search to perform. This can be very helpful also for new users, in my opinion, since they would search for information in an easier way, if they have some doubts on how Tatoeba works.

Thanuir Thanuir 30 days ago August 25, 2020 at 6:52:21 AM UTC link Permalink

Pidän itse keskustelupalstoista, mutta ne ovat poissa muodista ja toimivat harvoin hyvin. Harvat yhteisöt ovat riittävän eläväisiä, jotta keskustelun määrä pitäisi palstan elossa ja aktiivisena. Toisaalta keskustelupalstaa ei välttämättä ole sidottu tiettyyn yhtiöön. Saako keskustelupalstan tukemaan monia kieliä?

Monet yhteisöt ovat siirtyneet käyttämään Facebookia tai Discordia (jonka voi myös sillata irkkiin). Facebook on eettisesti epäilyttävä ja rohkaisee vahvasti oikeiden nimien käyttöön. Discord on yksityinen yhtiö, jonka käyttäjäkunta lienee pääosin länsimaista. Facebook ja Discord molemmat tukevat kohtuullista kielivalikoimaa.

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mccarras mccarras 30 days ago, edited 30 days ago August 25, 2020 at 12:06:44 PM UTC, edited August 25, 2020 at 12:07:52 PM UTC link Permalink

I'm involved in a very active Discord community, and I have to say that I really like the features it offers for real-time and asynchronous communication. Starting a Discord server is not difficult, but of course it's another interface for everyone to learn. I still have trouble remembering how to use some of the features (e.g., easily switching to a private message history). Searching for text within messages is simple-just type in the search term (without quotes even) and you're given a list of messages with all of those terms. Click on the message in that list to jump to the section of the channel that has that discussion. Very handy.

Like Facebook, they also collect a lot of data on users. They do not as of this point use ads as part of the interface, but sell aggregated data. User can maintain anonymity easily.

@Thanuir, even though the server I'm on is US-based, there are many members from around the world. The time differences show up but it doesn't preclude participation from people in all parts of Europe, the Middle East, and Australia at least.

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 27 days ago August 27, 2020 at 11:02:47 PM UTC link Permalink

@gillux @mccarras Do you think we can set up an extra official channel for Tatoeba on Discord to have a clear idea of what we need/want for the Wall?

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mccarras mccarras 27 days ago August 28, 2020 at 1:59:56 AM UTC link Permalink

@Ricardo14, I like the idea of trying to work out what's needed for a wall, but taking it off the wall means that people who don't want to use Discord won't be in the discussion.

That said, it's easy enough to start a server on Discord. I'm happy to lend my server if people would want to chat there; I only use it for scientific collaborations. Slack might also be a good idea. I find that interface much easier.

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CK CK 27 days ago, edited 27 days ago August 28, 2020 at 2:09:08 AM UTC, edited August 28, 2020 at 2:10:41 AM UTC link Permalink

I think a simple "no frills" forum built on CakePHP and integrated into, so usernames are the same, would be better than moving offsite and would likely be better than the Wall.

A forum wouldn't have to have a full set of features, at least at first. We could have several categories for topics.

1. Questions about how to use
2. Discussions about possible improvements.
3. Announcements and progress reports.

I think the Tatoeba Project has outgrown the Wall for discussions. However, perhaps the Wall could be preserved for TRANG to make official announcements, similar to idea number 3 above.

Ricardo14 Ricardo14 27 days ago August 28, 2020 at 11:29:23 AM UTC link Permalink

I tried something similar with Telegram but didn't work too much. I'd like to give Discord a try :)

gillux gillux 29 days ago August 25, 2020 at 11:42:40 PM UTC link Permalink

I don’t think we are going to host a forum anywhere else than our own servers. Using an external host comes with privacy concerns and doesn’t allow any kind of integration with the existing website. And I’m not particularly excited about Discord because it’s proprietary software.

Aside from the technical questions, how do you think a Tatoeba forum could look like?

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Thanuir Thanuir 29 days ago August 26, 2020 at 6:53:21 AM UTC link Permalink

1. Keskustelupalstan toivoisin olevan kiinteä osa Tatoebaa. Sama käyttäjätili jos suinkin mahdollista ja mieluiten etäisesti samanoloinen ulkonäkö. Uskon, että tämä madaltaisi kynnystä osallistua keskusteluihin palstalla. En toki ole alan asiantuntija, joten saatanpa olla väärässäkin.

2. Monikielisyys on tärkeätä. Tällöin voisi myös olla syytä lisätä mahdollisuus korostaa haluamiaan kieliä.

3. Keskustelupalsta sopii riitelyyn ja pitkiin pohdintoihin. Kysymys-ja-vastaus -tyylinen alusta sopisi paremmin selkeisiin vastauksiin ja ongelmanratkaisuun. Toisaalta Github on jo olemassa.

4. Edellinen keskustelupalsta, jonka käyttöliittymästä pidin, taisi olla Vanilla-pohjainen.

5. Yksinkertainen ja suoraviivainen käyttöliittymä on tärkeämpää kuin laaja kirjo piirteitä. Muuten palstaa käyttää vain muutama, eikä se palvele tarkoitustaan.

mccarras mccarras 27 days ago August 27, 2020 at 9:35:54 PM UTC link Permalink

Most people use vulgarity occasionally; in some places it's the norm. Today's question revolves around milder vulgarity, specifically, the English word "hell" when used for emphasis.

To me, "What the hell" or similar meet the definition of vulgar:
lacking sophistication or good taste; unrefined.
making explicit and offensive reference to sex or bodily functions; coarse and rude.

I wouldn't say "What the hell" if I was in a conversation where I needed to be polite. That said, I regularly say the sentence that's implied by WTF.

I was looking back at all the English sentences with "hell" (454 results), and none of them have a vulgar tag.

Does this mean that the community doesn't feel "hell" is vulgar? Certainly, the English sentences that do have the vulgar tag use some of the more serious swear words. But hell is still a swear word, as far as I'm concerned. Should I tag all 454 vulgar? Seems like it would have been done already if it were needed. Who am I to decide?

Suggestions and input would be much appreciated! Thank you all.

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Luiaard Luiaard 27 days ago August 27, 2020 at 11:02:26 PM UTC link Permalink

Neither the OED nor Merriam-Webster marks it as vulgar. For comparison, they both do mark "What the fuck" as vulgar. I think we should follow their example.

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mccarras mccarras 27 days ago August 28, 2020 at 2:06:28 AM UTC link Permalink

Excellent; I'm feeling freer to express myself already. :)

maaster maaster August 23, 2020 August 23, 2020 at 12:23:01 PM UTC link Permalink

Pure statistic:
We almost have 400,000 English sentences with Tom.

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 27 days ago August 27, 2020 at 10:59:47 PM UTC link Permalink


Darezki Darezki 27 days ago August 27, 2020 at 9:34:41 PM UTC link Permalink

Amek akken ara d-nernu tadliwin-nneɣ ar unnar?

Cabo Cabo 30 days ago August 25, 2020 at 4:31:47 PM UTC link Permalink

Látom, egy-két nyelv itteni mondatgyűjteménye főként más nyelvekből történt fordítás eredménye, nem pedig egyénileg írt mondat.

Magyarul is egy nagy hányada a mondatoknak ilyen, sőt, sokszor csak szó szerinti fordítások.
A magyar egy olyan nyelv, mely teli van egészen furcsa vagy ötletes kifejezésekkel és szólásokkal, de ezek nem jelennek meg a szó szerinti fordításokban.

Talán jobb lenne nem is elsődlegesen azt kérni a tagoktól, hogy saját nyelvükön írjanak mondatokat, hanem saját nyelvükön sajátokat. (értsd: nem fordítást)

Különben attól tartok, lesz, és marad is pár nyelv, melyeket itt sosem láthatunk majd sajátos pompájukban, csak angol mondatokra felhúzott típusmondatok formájában.

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Thanuir Thanuir 29 days ago August 26, 2020 at 6:44:30 AM UTC link Permalink

Molempi parempi.

Kannattaa toki kirjoittaa alkuperäisiä lauseita omalla kielellään; erityisesti kielikuvia ja englannista puuttuvia kielioppirakenteita sekä kyseiseen kieleen liittyvälle kulttuurille ominaisia lauseita. Näitä ei välttämättä tule käyttäneeksi tai vastaan kun kääntää.

Toisaalta ei lauseiden kääntämisessäkään mitään vikaa ole.

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Cabo Cabo 28 days ago August 27, 2020 at 8:06:04 AM UTC link Permalink

Érdemes lefordítani, amit lehet, és magában nem is probléma, csak mikor szó szerint megy a fordítás, akár olyanná alakítva ezzel a mondatot, hogy egy anyanyelvi beszélőnek fura, nem is hangzik túl jól, és sosem mondaná úgy.
Mikor fordítás történik, van, hogy a nyelvet amire fordítanak rá akarják venni, úgy viselkedjen, mint amiről fordítanak, mert hogy azzal adja csak úgy át igazán a másik nyelv mondatának mondanivalóját, és ez sem éppen jó.
Ha csak fordítások népesítik be a gyűjteményt, különbözik az attól, mintha alapból saját, kitalált mondatok lettek volna és azok kapnak fordítást egy másik nyelvre.

Ajánlani természetesen lehet, és ha ajánlhatok valamit, ez legyen az.
Legyen pártolva elsődlegesen az, hogy a tagok saját nyelvükön saját mondataikat fogalmazzák meg.

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Thanuir Thanuir 28 days ago August 27, 2020 at 8:12:34 AM UTC link Permalink

Olen samaa mieltä käännetyn kielen erikoisuudesta. Hakusana "translationese" vie pitkälle jos haluat tutustua aiheeseen tarkemmin.

Kuitenkin iso osa Tatoeban arvosta tulee nimenomaan siitä, että se sisältää lauseiden käännöksiä. Käännöksiä luodaan kun lauseita käännetään.

Vapaaehtoisprojektin hengessä kannustan kaikkia osallistumaan heille mieluisimmalla tavalla. Jos haluaa rohkaista muita samaan, on työkalujen ja ohjeiden tekeminen rakentavaa.

mccarras mccarras 29 days ago August 26, 2020 at 11:11:26 AM UTC link Permalink

What about just adding some explanation or link in the comments for a sentence for something that might be an idiom or otherwise hard to interpret? Not that it's your job to do that for your contribution, but it might spark an interesting discussion. I know I enjoyed trying to figure out what the Dutch "Rust roest" translated to. It wasn't even clear to me as a native English speaker when I looked at the Dutch sayings website (in Dutch), but after talking back and forth in the comments with a native Dutch speaker, we figured out a couple of good translations.

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Cabo Cabo 28 days ago August 27, 2020 at 8:20:21 AM UTC link Permalink

Tudom, nem lehet mindent lefordítani, de nem is az a fő mondanivalója annak, mit írtam, hogy vannak a nyelvben szólások, közmondások.
(Ezeknél persze, igen, jobb ha van segítség, de mi van azokkal, akik 1,5 csillagra értékelik angol tudásukat? Irhatok magyarul, nem biztos, hogy előrébb leszel azzal.)

Picit jobban kifejtettem a dolgot most Thanuir kommentje alatt.
A fordítandó és fordítás közti különbség, amit fel akartam hozni.

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mccarras mccarras 28 days ago August 27, 2020 at 10:22:20 AM UTC link Permalink

Unfortunately, @Cabo, I'm still not getting the main point of your edited post (I think) because of Google Translate's severe translationese with it (and DeepL doesn't include Hungarian?), but I think you're saying:

(1)some languages have beautiful and unique sayings that aren't represented on here and wouldn't translate well anyway

(2) People should contribute in their own languages.

I think @Thanuir was basically saying (if I understand correctly) that you're right; sometimes things don't translate properly. But Thanuir is also saying that Tatoeba's value lies in translations, and that if people are interested in making recommendations for how to best use Tatoeba, they could write up some instructions for users.

Personally, I love learning about unique sayings in other languages and trying to figure out if they're understandable or correlate with English sayings. Finding out the nuances is great, and I think comments would be really useful for that.

For example, I found these great bowls at a store in the Netherlands that said "Nu komt de aap uit de mouw", which I was told by a Dutch pal translated to "Now the cat's out of the bag," which basically means "now we know the full story of what's going on". I gave one to my mentor, who has a parent from Belgium, and he said, "Oh, so this is what you think of me!" Apparently there's a nuance with the Dutch saying that has more to do with covering up/hiding something that I didn't get from my friend's casual explanation.

So my vote would be for putting up the cool sayings from your own language, trying to explain what they mean in the comments or linking to something that explains them (even a resourcein your own language), and waiting to see what the translations look like.

Also, I see some very gentle suggestions in some of the guidance for contributors that people contribute sentences in their native language or consider translating into their native language, but it's not what I would call a strong recommendation. I have a feeling if you could make the case for doing that in a reasonable way, it might be something that could be incorporated into the guidelines or a blog post. But I'm not sure of that! I think that's what Thanuir is implying, though.

mccarras mccarras August 23, 2020 August 23, 2020 at 5:08:31 PM UTC link Permalink

I'm learning a lot more about language learning in general, and I've gotten some great feedback from the community here. Here's a question for you: Would it be useful to write collections of sentences that go a bit deeper into the subjects I'm excited about (some of which are controversial and could stimulate discussion)? If so, is it necessary to use easier-to-understand language than the sentences below?

Video games can be lifesaving for people who have severe disabilities or suffer from uncontrollable symptoms.

She was shocked to learn that some video game developers targeted users who played excessively.

Token representation on yet another committee is not enough to repair generations of oppression.

People often believe that talking to a person in crisis about suicide might make them more likely to do it, but the opposite is true.

How about sentences that reflect ideas or subcultures that might be super-relevant for some but incomprehensible for others? Examples:

That weird song about the beans was definitely a tier 4 meme.

The celebrity was a victim of cancel culture.

He deleted his flame post because he was worried about being doxxed.

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Thanuir Thanuir August 23, 2020 August 23, 2020 at 5:34:15 PM UTC link Permalink

Sanoisin noita kaikkia lauseita hyviksi. Erikoissanasto on hyvästä; sitä ei ole läheskään tarpeeksi tietokannassa. Tatoebaa ei ole mitenkään erityisesti kohdistettu kielenoppijoille eikä myöskään aloitteleville sellaisille.

Lauseesi eivät vaikuta siltä, että loukkaisivat ihmisiä.

Jos lause sisältää erikoissanastoa, sen voi mainita kommenteissa (tai käyttää sopivaa tunnusta jos on siihen oikeudet).

pergpau pergpau 30 days ago, edited 30 days ago August 25, 2020 at 3:41:33 PM UTC, edited August 25, 2020 at 3:41:40 PM UTC link Permalink

Dude, these are the types of sentences we need. Way too much "Tom has a pen" right now.

sharptoothed sharptoothed 30 days ago August 25, 2020 at 1:11:15 PM UTC link Permalink

** Stats & Graphs **

Tatoeba Stats, Graphs & Charts have been updated:

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Guybrush88 Guybrush88 30 days ago August 25, 2020 at 1:27:15 PM UTC link Permalink


CK CK August 22, 2020 August 22, 2020 at 7:11:59 AM UTC link Permalink

** Stats - 2020-08-22 - Native Speakers with Contributions **

Find out who the native speakers are and get links to their sentences.

Lein Lein August 22, 2020 August 22, 2020 at 6:18:28 AM UTC link Permalink

"La imaginación está en constante seducción a la verdad,
En busca de la razón" -