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Wall (5415 threads)

CK
CK
24 days ago
Here is a list with the number of unowned sentences in each language.

http://tatoeba.byethost3.com/orphans_190622.html

More information is at the top of the page.
CK
CK
24 days ago
Here's an interesting way to search

"Tom Boston Monday French Canadian Australia October Jackson three thirteen thirty 2013"/4

The /4 in this query means that at least 4 of these words must be found.

https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...g&sort=created

Here is the same search with /3
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...g&sort=created

/2
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...g&sort=created

/1
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...g&sort=created

Even /5 gets one result
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...g&sort=created

Smoky
24 days ago
May I ask, what does "contributions" mean on profile page under stats?
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Guybrush88
24 days ago - 24 days ago
It shows a page that lists the history of the sentences you add and delete, and of what you link and unlink
DostKaplan
27 days ago - 27 days ago
To improve the speed in which the page is displayed, why not omit displaying the "More Search Criteria" on the right side of the page. I mean, don't even include the underlying code at all, not just hiding it. That way the page would be leaner and completely rendered faster. If someone wants more search options, let her click on a link, and then fetch the HTML from the server and stick it within a <div> as needed. I almost never use the "more search criteria" area. It seems like a waste to display that rather "thick" area every single time the results are displayed.
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CK
CK
27 days ago
> To improve the speed in which the page is displayed, ....

I'm not 100% sure, but most of the delay is likely with the database connection more than with the amount of code in the page.

> It seems like a waste to display that rather "thick" area every single time the results are displayed.

Also, I'm not 100% sure of this, but once tatoeba.org is converted over to being mobile-friendly, that whole area will likely collapse down to below the search results. That's how most websites would do it.
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DostKaplan
27 days ago
Has there been a recent site update? Like after I posted my wall message? The site seems more responsive now. In particular, the green search bar on top is appearing much faster. It used to appear a couple of seconds after the results on the page had been displayed.
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TRANG
25 days ago
The last update was on Sunday, June 16th. Which was before you posted these messages. Something must have changed on your side because nothing changed on Tatoeba's side, as far as I know.
CK
CK
27 days ago - 26 days ago
If you think it would be fun to translate English sentences with my most recently-added audio files, try this link.

https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...direction=desc

These aren't necessarily the most-recently contributed sentences, but are the sentences with the most-recently added audio.

[EDIT]

I've already added over 3,000 new audio files so far this week.
I added 4,420 last week.

If you are interested in always listening to the newest audio files of mine, bookmark that page. The sentences with the newest audio files are always at the top.
gillux
29 days ago
I believe our website is quite hard to understand and very confusing for new users. I believe that the lack of usability in Tatoeba is a major problem because if we don’t do anything about it:

1) our community will keep being "small" because most news members won’t stick around, except the most motivated/tech-savvy of them.
2) our community will lack diversity and openness because it will keep being centered around power-users

I think some of the reasons Tatoeba lacks usability include:

1) we never had any UX designer to help us out
2) we didn’t cared that much
3) when we actually cared, we designed by committee, which is very wrong (look up "ux design by committee" on a search engine if want to know why, e.g. https://www.justinmind.com/blog...-by-committee/ )

In order to tentatively address this problem, I’ve performed a first usability test on Tatoeba. If you’re not familiar with usability tests, you can read the introduction of this article https://www.experienceux.co.uk/...ility-testing/

With the permission of the tested user, I am publishing a raw report of the test on the wiki: https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...show/ux-test-1

By publishing this report, my intention is NOT to ask for solutions to the problems shown by the test, because this would be doing design by committee again. Instead, my intention is to:

1) "prove" how terrible our usability level is, if anyone still had doubts
2) bring the topic of usability that I’ve seldom seen on the Wall
3) encourage you to do more usability tests (it’s fun!) and send them to team@tatoeba.org, or publish them on the wiki if the user is okay with that
4) discuss about ways to avoid design by committee and improve our designing process for existing and future things

Some further reading I’d like to share (French) http://www.maiwann.net/blog/des...n-collaborait/
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shekitten
29 days ago
This is damning, and explains why it's hard to get new users even by trying to promote the site, especially in languages with very small numbers of speakers or mostly-older speaker communities.

You seem to be an expert on UX design? I'm not a developer, but we ought to defer to whoever is knowledgable in this area. User experience and accessibility should be the most important things for any site, especially one like this.
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gillux
29 days ago
Thank you shekitten, I appreciate your compassion!

I’m no UX design expert. I’m a developer and I contribute code on Tatoeba. I just happen to become more and more aware of UX problems these days.
Aiji
29 days ago
That is a good thing to start thinking about UX feedback :) Good job

About 4), A/B testing may help assess the (un)usefulness of some parts of the website. In particular, it might give hints on how the homepage could be more useful.
TRANG
28 days ago
Thank you (again) gillux, for performing this usability test. I remember we had one initiative to test the usability of Tatoeba: https://forms.gle/LEBfNEP4mNYGMavUA, but it was not as complete as the one you did here.

I too, would like to encourage everyone to perform these tests with people around them. If we can gather a set of tests performed on a fairly diverse group, it would be a goldmine of information. And having this kind of info might attract some UX designers to help us out!

It's very clear that we do not have the skills to design awesome UI's, but we can do things that will make talented UX designers help us. And I believe that collecting usability tests is one of those things.

I actually tried once, to post a blue announcement saying that we need help in UI/UX design. And I got barely any response. Just one person responded if I remember, but they never actually got involved. It could be because it's hard to find a designer who would work for free. But I think it's also because we had nothing to show that they would be working in a healthy and engaging environment.

If anything, having those usability tests would show that we're not asking for a free ride. That we did our homework and that in general, we will be collaborative in doing whatever it takes to help them give us the best help they can.

I had never heard of the term "design by committee" before, but it certainly was one of our flaws. I think I identified this several years ago and the solution I found and started to implement was to focus on solving problems. This is why the guidelines for submitting issues have a paragraph that says "Focus on describing the problem".

Many features in Tatoeba were implemented on the basis of "I want this" or "it would be nice if". I can see now that this is the common trap that everyone who tries to develop an app/website for the first time falls into. I, myself, added features in Tatoeba just because I wanted them. Then when more people started to use Tatoeba, I added features because they wanted such features. And Tatoeba evolved in this dynamic. The focus was about fulfilling people's wishes, rather than trying to solve problems. For several years it never occurred to me that it's all about solving problems.

Then the engineer side of me kicked in, and I realized that trying to fulfill people's wishes is, in fact, trying to solve problems. But it's not an efficient way because you're not accessing the source information. Users will make feature requests because there is a problem, but they will express it by translating the problem into a solution, then translate their idea of a solution into words, then submit these words to us. When we decide to implement a feature request, we're actually (often subconsciously) first translating back their solution into the problem, and then we assess if the problem is indeed relevant for us, and then we assess if their solution is acceptable.

But we all know how things get lost in translations...

So that's my perspective on avoiding to design by committee: we have to focus on solving problems. Whenever someone asks to change something or to add something, we have to understand what's the problem. Then we have to ask ourselves if it's a problem that is relevant to Tatoeba. If it is, then we can start thinking about solutions. And the best solutions are solutions that don't bring back a problem we solved before and don't introduce new problems (not easy to find).

Along the way, we have to ask ourselves some of those existential questions, like what is our purpose, what is our mission, what do we value the most? While we probably all have a vague idea of the answers, this vague idea will not always be enough to help us decide and justify what problem to solve and what problem not to solve. We need to really think deeply about it.

All of this isn't going to magically transform Tatoeba into a beautifully usable tool, but at least it sets us in the right direction. From there, we "just" have to hope that we can find a great designer, or that a great designer finds us, or that one of us becomes a great designer.
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gillux
28 days ago
I think we can be a bit more proactive in finding UX designers. The French link I mentioned suggests contacting or meeting students or teachers of UX design to ask them if they want to make a project on Tatoeba, be it now or in the future, as part of their studies or on their free time. Students often have to complete some kind of project, which is never actually used. So it could be a good opportunity for them to work on something real, yet without the fear of making us loose money if they fail or anything like that.

I am not really in a situation where I can easily approach students or teachers, but I know that many of our contributors are language teachers or students, so maybe it could be easier for them if they work in a university or knows somebody who knows somebody…? In the meantime, I agree that gathering more data through user tests could be very useful.
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TRANG
27 days ago
I had skipped reading the French article but it was a very good read too (thanks for the reminder about it). While I'm not a designer, a lot of things in there echoed to me. It gave me a boost of confidence that we really can provide a nice playground for aspiring designers.

I'm unfortunately not in a situation where I can approach students/teachers either, but I can tell you it did cross my mind, a few years ago, to start a degree in UX design. It came from a discussion with my colleagues at work (I had just moved to Austria), and one of them was still in the middle of his Master's degree. We were talking about how, in Austria, you could study full time for a year (or maybe even two?) while still being an employee and getting paid (not 100% of your salary, but still). And in general, it's not too difficult to arrange things with your employer to study while working at the same time.

I definitely cannot make that happen now, but I can start thinking about it more seriously.

I also remember I looked for meetups about UX design and I remember finding a group in this Meetup app, that had a "designer breakfast". I don't know if there is still such a group, but I never went in the end because the usual "I don't have time" excuse and also because I'm really not a morning person :s

But yes, we can be more proactive, that's for sure. I hope this discussion inspires other members to take initiatives :)
CK
CK
29 days ago
For those of you studying English, perhaps you would like to try some of the "Listen and Repeat" videos on my YouTube channel.

https://www.youtube.com/InterestingThingsESL

Many of these use sentences from the Tatoeba Corpus that I have recorded.

The description of each video has a link to a list on tatoeba.org with the sentences in the video.

Currently, 3 new videos per week are being published.
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Etvreurey
29 days ago - 24 days ago
.
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mraz
28 days ago - 24 days ago
@Etvreurey

Azt írod:
>>> egyáltalán nem egy tanulási forma.

Ezt nem arra találták ki. >>

You cannot learn a language just by using Tatoeba.
It doesn't provide any structure for learning.

>> mint más idegen nyelv tanulására szánt oldalak.<<

Ezt nem arra találták ki. >>

You cannot learn a language just by using Tatoeba.
It doesn't provide any structure for learning.

>> Ma még nagyon távol áll attól is az oldal, hogy bárki csupán ennek a segítségével képes legyen megtanulni egy nyelvet alap szinten.

Ezt nem arra találták ki.

You cannot learn a language just by using Tatoeba.
It doesn't provide any structure for learning.

+++
Sajnon én sem értem, a fenti két mondaton kívül mi az 'írásod' mondandója,
mit szeretnél ill. mit vársz el.

Fordítóprogram // Mondatok 'megfelelő' fordításai. /anyanyelvi lektorálással/

Szóval?

Üdv.: mraz

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mraz
28 days ago - 24 days ago
Természetesen mindenből lehet tanulni ... : )

Nem a tanulás segítségére találták ki (elsődlegesen) ...

Azt írod:
>> ha azt akarja bárki is, hogy itt tanulás folyjon,<<

Ezt nem arra találták ki. >>

You cannot learn a language just by using Tatoeba.
It doesn't provide any structure for learning.

Mit jelent magyarul ' csak periféria marad.'?
Mit szeretnél?
Thanuir
28 days ago
En valitettavasti osaa unkaria, joten vastaan tietokonekäännetyn kirjoituksen pohjalta.

Jos hakee joukkoistettua sanakirjaa, niin eikö Wiktionary aja sen asian ihan pätevästi? Sieltä löytyy myös sanojen taivutuksia, käännöksiä ja synonyymejä.
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mraz
28 days ago - 24 days ago
@thanuir, igen

Az arról szól. (Wiktionary)

Ez itt másról szól. (Tatoeba) >>

You cannot learn a language just by using Tatoeba.
It doesn't provide any structure for learning.

Örülök. (és nagyon jó), hogy finnül írtál. : )
DostKaplan
2019-06-14 22:18 - 2019-06-14 22:19
The asterisk notation used in searches has become less useful, in my opinion. When searching for "bir daha *mak" from Turkish to English, I get results like:

Bir daha orada yaşamak istemiyor.
Onu bir daha hiç yapmak istemiyorum.

If I had wanted an intervening word, I would have searched for "bir daha * *mak"! But that's not what I want. I want specifically results, if any, like:

...bir daha almak...
...bir daha yapmak...

https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...rom=tur&to=eng
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AlanF_US
2019-06-15 12:43 - 2019-06-15 13:03
You can achieve what you want by using the proximity search operator, ~. The following search:

"bir daha *mak"~1

will search for the phrase "bir daha" separated from a word ending with "mak" by up to, but not including, 1 word. (In other words, there must be 0 words separating them.) See this link:

https://docs.manticoresearch.co...ry_syntax.html

I also updated our wiki page:

https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...ow/text-search
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DostKaplan
30 days ago
Wow. I guess this is a new feature. Thanks.
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AlanF_US
30 days ago
You're welcome. You could also do this search:

bir NEAR/1 daha NEAR/1 *mak

I'm not sure it makes sense to describe the NEAR operator on the wiki page, but you can find a description here:

https://docs.manticoresearch.co...ry_syntax.html
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DostKaplan
30 days ago
It's pretty unintuitive, no? A more regexp-like notation would have been better. Like...

"bir daha *mak" (no intervening words)
Matches: "bir daha yapmak"

"bir* daha *mak" (no intervening words)
Matches: "biraz daha çalışmak"

"bir daha *{2} *mak" (up to two intervening words)
Matches:
"bir daha yapmak"
"bir daha araba kullanmak"
"bir daha yeni araba kullanmak"

"bir daha *{1} *m[a|e]k" (up to one intervening word and matching *mak or *mek)
Matches:
"bir daha yapmak"
"bir daha söylemek"
"bir daha araba kullanmak"
"bir daha araba sürmek"
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AlanF_US
29 days ago
That syntax would work fine for me, since I'm familiar with regular expressions, but perhaps the Sphinx/Manticore team decided it would be difficult for people who weren't. Or perhaps they had other constraints.
Vodka444
2019-06-13 11:10
The content of this message goes against our rules and was therefore hidden. It is displayed only to admins and to the author of the message.
Killboy
2019-06-13 06:51
Why when I leave a comment, it's doubled?
Or it's just my mouse malfunctioning?
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raggione
2019-06-13 08:07
most likely - if you inadvertently click the mouse twice - happened to me
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Vodka444
2019-06-13 10:32
The content of this message goes against our rules and was therefore hidden. It is displayed only to admins and to the author of the message.