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Wall (5456 threads)

CK
CK
2010-06-16 14:40
I compiled a list of tags that I have found.
http://a4esl.com/temporary/tatoeba/#tags
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Pharamp
2010-06-23 11:44
BTW: I added "death" and "Socrates" tags :)
Can we add "to-be-checked" tag too?
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blay_paul
2010-06-23 11:48
> Can we add "to-be-checked" tag too?

Could do. I suggest "to check" (it's shorter ;-). There might already be one though. The tag system is still rather unstable. (No official list of tags available yet).
Pharamp
2010-06-23 19:32
"Marcel Schwob" and "Lucretius" tags added too.
cburgmer
2010-06-16 20:03
Thanks. Already though about pestering our fellow developers with such a function :)
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sysko
2010-06-16 20:04
thanks CK, in my side I will integrate it ASAP in tatoeba (as told in blog's post) :)
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CK
CK
2010-06-17 01:22
I assume that you will probably be doing "tag cloud" with the more popular tags being larger than the less popular ones. That's fairly standard on websites nowadays.

However, you may want to also consider a manually-maintained list similar to what I started, since this gives people a slightly "structured" idea on what kinds of tags might be appropriate and useful. Feel free to grab what I started and put it somewhere on Tatoeba.org. I can then delete it off of my website.
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sysko
2010-06-17 09:33
I planned basically to do both, a pages dedicated to tags, structured by category as the main module, and a tag cloud as a annex module
by the way we will also add the possibility to have a description associated to a tag (it might be usefull for some obscure tags/ grammar point tags)
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xtofu80
2010-06-17 17:09
Two questions about tags:
Shall we tag idioms with "set_phrase"?
Is there a tag for TVV series, movie title, etc?
CK's page only has "book_title".
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Demetrius
2010-06-18 12:19
I’ve used «TV-series title».

But you can make up any tags you want. I can’t even remember all the tags I’ve added. :) Today I’ve tagged some Belarusian sentences as «aphorism», «simple sentence», «complex sentence», «impersonal sentence», «indefinite-personal sentence», «ellipsis», «nominative sentence», «direct address», «subjunctive mood», «imperative mood», «complex verbal predicate», «past tense», «future tense», «present tense», «prediction», «astonishment». Some of these have only two or three sentences, though. ;o

I don’t clearly understand what is PG. Should the sentence 404597 be tagged PG?
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blay_paul
2010-06-18 12:25
> I don’t clearly understand what is PG.
> Should the sentence 404597 be tagged PG?

Possibly. Or PG-13. PG is "Parental Guidance advised" (which means that pre-teenagers can watch, but there may be some content you wouldn't want them to see). PG-13 is a little stronger warning.

In any case just having 'pornsite' mentioned in a sentence isn't something that (in my personal view) would be damaging to a typical 13 year old. So I wouldn't give it a higher rating than PG-13.
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Scott
2010-06-23 16:01
PG could mean Project Gutenberg (not in this instance I guess)
Dorenda
2010-06-18 12:06
I've already seen "TV-series title" being used.

CK, why are "non-sentence", "book-title", "pg", "impolite", and "xxx" under the heading "For Moderators"?
blay_paul
2010-06-23 09:54
Using the delete tag?

Please state why you think the sentence should be deleted in a comment. Even if it's obvious, it lets me know how long it has been in the list and gives other users the chance to see what is happening.
Scott
2010-06-23 04:47
Quick question: How do you search by tags?

Also, you should make the wall searchable.
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blay_paul
2010-06-23 05:42
> Quick question: How do you search by tags?

Replace [tagword] with whatever you want to search for and use the following url.

http://tatoeba.org/eng/tags/sho..._tag/[tagword]
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Scott
2010-06-23 05:47
thank you
sysko
2010-04-29 23:58
I've just added 115 audios for French sentences will you find them? :p
spoiler
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/338642
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sysko
2010-06-23 01:58
added 800 French audios , 400 Chinese audios
I had forgotten to say I've also added some days ago 100 Dutch audios thanks to ramses from spanishonly.com

so before 1300 audios => now 2800 :)
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Scott
2010-06-23 02:29
Bravo!
Dorenda
2010-04-30 20:03
Nice. :)
There's just one strange thing, I don't hear the end of the sentence. I only hear "Ses travaux perdureront pendant des s..."
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sysko
2010-04-30 21:13
Maybe it's because the end of "siècle" is a bit voiceless in French

what about this one ?
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/9964
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Dorenda
2010-04-30 21:34
That one I can hear completely.

But it's not because of a voiceless end of "siècle" that I don't hear the end, cause if I download the file and play it in a seperate player, it's there.
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sysko
2010-04-30 22:30
Ok I will try to add a longer silence end to the audio
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sysko
2010-05-09 02:42
add 300 more in French, now more than 0.1 percent of sentences have an audio :)
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Pharamp
2010-05-09 09:48
great sysko! ^____^
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sysko
2010-05-14 23:56
added 300 new French sentences and 400 Chinese sentences
so now more than 1,100 audios
saeb
2010-04-30 00:21
sweet :) you guys are great !
xtofu80
2010-06-21 14:10
I am a bit annoyed by the linking functionality:
When I did not link sentences, I could translate sentences pretty quickly, but when I want to link my translation to all sentences which are equivalent, I have to:
click on my translated sentence=>new tab, click on all sentences I want to link, confirm the linking; close the tab for this sentence.
I feel that this is a considerable slowdown, though I am not sure how one could improve that. What do you think?
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TRANG
2010-06-22 08:27
Don't feel obliged to systematically link sentences. Just because you can doesn't mean you have to :P

The link/unlink features was introduced in order to fix certain groups of sentences, which were linked to each other while not having the same meaning. That's mostly what it's about right now.

We could have a checkbox so that you can translate from multiple sentences, but I don't feel it would be the appropriate solution.

There's no urge in having all sentences linked together. I'd even say it's better that you don't link them right away. You can link them later, or let someone else link them later. It would be a way to proofread your sentences.
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xtofu80
2010-06-22 19:57
Why I came to believe that immediate linking is important:
One of my personal reasons to contribute to tatoeba is to learn correct collocations of new vocabulary:
When I learn a new word in my foreign language Japanese, I look at and translate sentences which contain that word. By doing so, I learn how the word is used, useful phrases containing the word, etc.
One thing which regularly happens is that one English sentence has many Japanese translation variants which differ only in minute details such as particles, thus they are identical in meaning. Now if I get a list of sentences when I search for a word, I often get all of these translation variants. If I immediately link the German sentence to the English one, I see all of its translation variants and can also link most/all of them. Thus, I am not tempted to translate all of these variants individually.
blay_paul
2010-06-21 14:46
What I would most appreciate is the ability to link to sentences that are not displayed, at least for moderators. That's a problem I often come across.

It would also be nice if links being created / deleted were shown in the 'recent activity' log on the main page.
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sysko
2010-06-21 14:58
@blay_paul => see your private message for linking "far" sentences

for logs of links yep it's something we also need to do, tough I will personnally not thing it needs to be displayed in the 10 last recent activity, maybe a specific "recent link" ? because I don't think it's something useful for most of users
sysko
2010-06-21 14:18
in fact we can first drop the "confirm" popup ?
I was thinking about the following, though I don't know if it will render "nicely"

when translating, having checkbox which appear near each translations / indirection translation, and when you validate your translation it will link to all checked sentences ? maybe that can be a first solution tough not perfect
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Dorenda
2010-06-21 14:32
Something like that would be really nice. :) But then you'd have to display the other sentences while translating, and I thought you purposely chose not to display them so that it would always be clear what language you're translating from?

Oh, and when you drop the "confirm" popup for linking, please don't drop it for unlinking. :)
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sysko
2010-06-21 14:34
yep it's still an idea, if people like it, I will see with Trang how to have something which permit easy "multi linking" and make clear which language you're translating from
blay_paul
2010-06-20 19:20
Tidy up the public lists?

There are a lot of public lists that seem to have seen little or no use. If they were removed it would be easier to find the ones that are in use when selecting them.
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xtofu80
2010-06-21 14:06
Besides the point that most lists are not used, I think they are pretty unordered. E.g. request for checking by native speakers is a topic common to all languages, and thus such lists could be grouped.
(Or, if there was a more flexible advanced search, we could use one list for all languages and filter, or use tags and then filter, e.g.
I could search for all German sentences with the tag "to-be-checked", correct them, and then remove the tag.)
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sysko
2010-06-21 14:28
In fact for this I think (as implementing an advance search system is "wanted" but to be honest for the moment our servers are far too slow to run complex search queries, or at least it will take us time to figure how to do both efficient advance search in a acceptable time) I can do the following , having a "to-be-checked" tag, having it accessible trough a "all tags" pages, and on the paginated list of all sentences with this tag, a filter by language (in fact it's what I plan to do very soon, so feel free to say if you would prefer something else)
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xtofu80
2010-06-21 15:27
That would be a nice start. I often come across English sentences I find dubious, but since I am not a native speaker, I would rather tag them than change them myself. On the other hand, I have also seen some incorrect German sentences by nonnative speakers which I had to correct, so I guess this functionality would help all of us to increase the quality of the sentences.
CK
CK
2010-06-21 02:17
At least, it would be great if the [@moderators] lists were all moved to the top. Perhaps the others could be alphabetized by title.

Can moderators remove tags?

If so, then maybe all things for moderators could be made into short, easy to type tags. This would be faster than trying to add things to lists. - For example (maybe prefix with the @ mark): @delete, @fix, @unlink (maybe other user created links would work too if all were prefixed with @.
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sysko
2010-06-21 02:25
in fact @moderators list in our mind are now to be replace by equivalent tags (as you've said @delete / @fix)

because I've said previously (don't know if on the wall or IRC)

list in "our mind" dedicated to "personnal/subjective" purpose (a list for me review for a test/ sentences I find usefull for my own business etc.)

tags are of a "generci/objective" purpose , grammar point, quote, action requested from the community (check/delete/link) etc.


maybe it's because it's 2 am && because my English is not so good but I don't get the "(maybe other user created links would work too if all were prefixed with @. "

but yep moderators can remove any tags
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CK
CK
2010-06-21 02:36
Re: maybe other user created links would work too if all were prefixed with @.
In other words, tags aimed at the moderators, don't necessarily have to be pre-determined. Maybe users can think of other appropriate tags, for example:
@translation doesn't match the English
@so archaic that removal is suggested
etc.

The admins can just look for the @ to find things that need to be corrected.
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blay_paul
2010-06-21 10:16
We going to have tags to reply to users then? Maybe starting with ~

e.g.

> @so archaic that removal is suggested
~not going to happen, live with it

;-)
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CK
CK
2010-06-21 10:24
I would personally, just recommend removing tags from sentences that all the moderators agree don't need to be processed.
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sysko
2010-06-21 10:44
+1
sysko
2010-06-21 09:57
ok so if I understand

@-starting tags would be used for "action-requested" tags in general?
if so, yep it make sense to make the difference between "informative" tags and "action needed" tags and would ease the processing
Scott
2010-06-20 20:00
Good idea. Maybe lists could be ranked by popularity.
TRANG
2010-06-22 07:40
In the long term, people will be able to choose which public list they want to follow.
monodioo
2010-06-22 06:38
Can I make folders of my sentences? Because I want to copy sentences from books or novels, will that be more fun?
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TRANG
2010-06-22 07:23
Concerning adding sentences from books or novels, this explains a little bit about copyright issues:
http://blog.tatoeba.org/2010/02...eba.html#rule8

I also have to edit that article to add a paragraph on licenses that are non CC-BY compatible. For instance, you cannot copy content from Wikipedia either, because their license is under CC-BY-SA, and SA means "Share Alike". This means if we take their content, we are forced to redistribute them under CC-BY-SA (and not just CC-BY).

The only books that you can safely copy from are books that are in the public domain.
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sysko
2010-06-22 08:40
in fact even public domain can be problematic, because for example some book from French dead authors are already in public domain in Canada but they're still not in France, due to a difference of "when does a book fall in public domain"
so in fact the only books that you can safely copy are those under CC-BY (yeah I know it's hard to find, but I'm not a law maker :( )
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Scott
2010-06-22 14:57
What about fair use? If you only cite a small part of a work it's usually ok in most circumstances. (I think).

I think that we should be able to use sentences from copyright free books. If not, what is the world coming to?
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sysko
2010-06-22 15:03
the problem come from the fact we create a derivative works from them (a translation / audio / also plan to make so automatic text analysis for machine learning with tatoeba data), not a simple "quote" for explaining (which is basically what French authorize for quoting)

so maybe it's possible, but I didn't find a law which clearly state that in French/European law, after all I'm not a jurist neither have read everything, so maybe I'm wrong, but we prefer to be safe rather than include some "maybe we can" content and after having problems (and in France it's "fashion" to make law suit about illegal use of copyrighted content)
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Scott
2010-06-22 15:21
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sysko
2010-06-22 15:31
ok thanks :) , I will wait my exams period to be finished before go deep into this.
sysko
2010-06-22 14:58
fair use is a notion which doesn't exist in French law
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Scott
2010-06-22 15:01
Ao you consider that this website is ruled by French law?
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sysko
2010-06-22 15:06
all current developpers are French, the server are hosted in France, so according to French law, Trang and me are responsible of the content in Tatoeba, not only contributors.
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blay_paul
2010-06-22 15:07
> all current developers are French,
> the server are hosted in France

One of those would be fairly easy to fix.
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Scott
2010-06-22 15:15
You want to kidnap the developers?
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sysko
2010-06-22 15:29
oh no I don't want to be kidnapped :(
Scott
2010-06-22 15:03
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr...ourte_citation

En France c'est le code de la propriété intellectuelle qui le détermine, et en particulier l'article L122-5. Les conditions de la loi française sont simplement (art L122-5 CPI) : « Lorsque l'œuvre a été divulguée, l'auteur ne peut interdire : […] 3º Sous réserve que soient indiqués clairement le nom de l'auteur et la source : a) Les analyses et courtes citations justifiées par le caractère critique, polémique, pédagogique, scientifique ou d'information de l'œuvre à laquelle elles sont incorporées ». Le droit de citation est gratuit et autorisé à tous.
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sysko
2010-06-22 15:04
as said under, we not only quote, we create derivative works from this quote
blay_paul
2010-06-22 06:52
You can create a list (or lists) to put your sentences in. However books and novels may be problematic because of copyright issues.
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monodioo
2010-06-22 07:24
I don't get the copyright thingy =( How about books in Project Gutenberg?
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Demetrius
2010-06-22 08:30
Books in Project Gutenberg should be OK, as far as I understand, since they are in public domain in most countries. :)

Books in Project Gutenberg Australia are probably not OK. ^^
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JimBreen
2010-06-23 03:07
Re: Books in Project Gutenberg Australia are probably not OK. ^^

Why is that? Books in Project Gutenberg Australia are in the public domain here. How does it differ from the situation in other countries?
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Scott
2010-06-23 04:43
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Au..._copyright_law

Prior to the U.S.-Australia Free Trade Agreement, Australia used a "plus 50" rule for determining when a work will enter the public domain. Put simply, a "work" (i.e. a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work) entered the public domain 50 years following the year of the creator's death, with exceptions. With the signing of the FTA in early 2005, copyright should now be understood as "plus 70"

The United States Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act (1998) defines an entirely different rule based on the year of first publication in the US: generally, anything published before 1923 is public domain. An interesting consequence of this for the Internet is that a work may be public domain in the US but not in Australia, or vice versa.
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JimBreen
2010-06-23 05:45
I am well aware of the copyright law here, and the changes that were made to it on the insistence of the US as a result of the "negotiations" for the so-called "Free Trade Agreement", but I am not aware that has much or anything to do with the works released by Project Gutenberg Australia.
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Scott
2010-06-23 05:52
Well, since project Gutenberg only publishes public domain works, it means that PG-Aus will publish books that may not be published by PG-USA since the laws are more restrictive there.

Now, Tatoeba is following French law according to Sysko. WP has this for France: The general rule is that the proprietary rights of the author last for seventy (70) years after his or her death (Art. L123-1), or for one hundred (100) years after the author's death if the author is declared to have died on active service (Mort pour la France) (Art. L123-10). The author is deemed to have died on 31 December of the year of death.

That means that there are probably books that are in the public domain in Australia but not in France.
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JimBreen
2010-06-23 06:05
No disagreement with any of that, but:
(a) I still can't understand Demetrius' special reference to Australia. The law here is not markedly different from other countries;
(b) I really doubt that if someone were to quote from a book released by PGA, (which usually means the author died before 1956), there would an action raised in a French court for a breach of copyright.
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blay_paul
2010-06-23 07:49
> (b) I really doubt that if someone were
> to quote from a book released by PGA,
> (which usually means the author died before
> 1956), there would an action raised in a
> French court for a breach of copyright.

My feeling is that, if you show good faith, this is a "it's better to beg forgiveness than ask permission" kind of thing.
Demetrius
2010-06-23 09:40
> (a) I still can't understand Demetrius'
> special reference to Australia. The law
> here is not markedly different from other
> countries;
It was just an example. And I've used it because I hapenned to know about Project Gutenberg Australia. ^^
Scott
2010-06-23 16:06
Yes I guess that the same problem would apply to Canada.

WP: According to s. 6 of the Act the copyright of a work lasts the life of the author plus 50 years from the end of the calendar year of death.
blay_paul
2010-06-19 10:15
TAGS: Quote, By-Foo, From-Foo

In the old style WWWJDIC tags you had things like [Quote, Romeo and Juliet, Shakespeare]. My suggestion for the current system is (up to) three tags.

Quote
By-Shakespeare
From-Romeo and Juliet

My reasoning is a) Clicking on 'Quote' will show all the quotes. b) Including 'By-' makes it clear that the author / speaker is being referred to, c) Including 'From-' makes it clear that the source (book, play, film, etc.) is being referred to.

I'd suggest that other related tags be brought into line with that system.

Comments and suggestions welcome.
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Scott
2010-06-21 03:10
I would skip the By- From- parts as it makes the process more tedious and is not essential, in my opinion.
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Demetrius
2010-06-21 09:36
By- part would allow the automatic processing of the tags.

Also, Non Caesar supra grammaticos has Caesar tag because it's related to Caesar, not because it's about him.
sysko
2010-06-21 02:33
I think it's a pretty good idea
Scott
2010-06-20 03:08
Search is broken.
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sysko
2010-06-20 10:52
repared (why does this happen during my sleep time ^^)
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Scott
2010-06-20 17:26
That's when the mice come out and get inside your computer :D.
blay_paul
2010-06-20 06:19
Where's the Sentence Annotation page disappeared to?