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Wall (5460 threads)

monodioo
2010-06-22 06:38
Can I make folders of my sentences? Because I want to copy sentences from books or novels, will that be more fun?
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TRANG
2010-06-22 07:23
Concerning adding sentences from books or novels, this explains a little bit about copyright issues:
http://blog.tatoeba.org/2010/02...eba.html#rule8

I also have to edit that article to add a paragraph on licenses that are non CC-BY compatible. For instance, you cannot copy content from Wikipedia either, because their license is under CC-BY-SA, and SA means "Share Alike". This means if we take their content, we are forced to redistribute them under CC-BY-SA (and not just CC-BY).

The only books that you can safely copy from are books that are in the public domain.
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sysko
2010-06-22 08:40
in fact even public domain can be problematic, because for example some book from French dead authors are already in public domain in Canada but they're still not in France, due to a difference of "when does a book fall in public domain"
so in fact the only books that you can safely copy are those under CC-BY (yeah I know it's hard to find, but I'm not a law maker :( )
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Scott
2010-06-22 14:57
What about fair use? If you only cite a small part of a work it's usually ok in most circumstances. (I think).

I think that we should be able to use sentences from copyright free books. If not, what is the world coming to?
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sysko
2010-06-22 15:03
the problem come from the fact we create a derivative works from them (a translation / audio / also plan to make so automatic text analysis for machine learning with tatoeba data), not a simple "quote" for explaining (which is basically what French authorize for quoting)

so maybe it's possible, but I didn't find a law which clearly state that in French/European law, after all I'm not a jurist neither have read everything, so maybe I'm wrong, but we prefer to be safe rather than include some "maybe we can" content and after having problems (and in France it's "fashion" to make law suit about illegal use of copyrighted content)
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Scott
2010-06-22 15:21
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sysko
2010-06-22 15:31
ok thanks :) , I will wait my exams period to be finished before go deep into this.
sysko
2010-06-22 14:58
fair use is a notion which doesn't exist in French law
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Scott
2010-06-22 15:01
Ao you consider that this website is ruled by French law?
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sysko
2010-06-22 15:06
all current developpers are French, the server are hosted in France, so according to French law, Trang and me are responsible of the content in Tatoeba, not only contributors.
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blay_paul
2010-06-22 15:07
> all current developers are French,
> the server are hosted in France

One of those would be fairly easy to fix.
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Scott
2010-06-22 15:15
You want to kidnap the developers?
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sysko
2010-06-22 15:29
oh no I don't want to be kidnapped :(
Scott
2010-06-22 15:03
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr...ourte_citation

En France c'est le code de la propriété intellectuelle qui le détermine, et en particulier l'article L122-5. Les conditions de la loi française sont simplement (art L122-5 CPI) : « Lorsque l'œuvre a été divulguée, l'auteur ne peut interdire : […] 3º Sous réserve que soient indiqués clairement le nom de l'auteur et la source : a) Les analyses et courtes citations justifiées par le caractère critique, polémique, pédagogique, scientifique ou d'information de l'œuvre à laquelle elles sont incorporées ». Le droit de citation est gratuit et autorisé à tous.
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sysko
2010-06-22 15:04
as said under, we not only quote, we create derivative works from this quote
blay_paul
2010-06-22 06:52
You can create a list (or lists) to put your sentences in. However books and novels may be problematic because of copyright issues.
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monodioo
2010-06-22 07:24
I don't get the copyright thingy =( How about books in Project Gutenberg?
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Demetrius
2010-06-22 08:30
Books in Project Gutenberg should be OK, as far as I understand, since they are in public domain in most countries. :)

Books in Project Gutenberg Australia are probably not OK. ^^
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JimBreen
2010-06-23 03:07
Re: Books in Project Gutenberg Australia are probably not OK. ^^

Why is that? Books in Project Gutenberg Australia are in the public domain here. How does it differ from the situation in other countries?
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Scott
2010-06-23 04:43
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Au..._copyright_law

Prior to the U.S.-Australia Free Trade Agreement, Australia used a "plus 50" rule for determining when a work will enter the public domain. Put simply, a "work" (i.e. a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work) entered the public domain 50 years following the year of the creator's death, with exceptions. With the signing of the FTA in early 2005, copyright should now be understood as "plus 70"

The United States Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act (1998) defines an entirely different rule based on the year of first publication in the US: generally, anything published before 1923 is public domain. An interesting consequence of this for the Internet is that a work may be public domain in the US but not in Australia, or vice versa.
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JimBreen
2010-06-23 05:45
I am well aware of the copyright law here, and the changes that were made to it on the insistence of the US as a result of the "negotiations" for the so-called "Free Trade Agreement", but I am not aware that has much or anything to do with the works released by Project Gutenberg Australia.
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Scott
2010-06-23 05:52
Well, since project Gutenberg only publishes public domain works, it means that PG-Aus will publish books that may not be published by PG-USA since the laws are more restrictive there.

Now, Tatoeba is following French law according to Sysko. WP has this for France: The general rule is that the proprietary rights of the author last for seventy (70) years after his or her death (Art. L123-1), or for one hundred (100) years after the author's death if the author is declared to have died on active service (Mort pour la France) (Art. L123-10). The author is deemed to have died on 31 December of the year of death.

That means that there are probably books that are in the public domain in Australia but not in France.
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JimBreen
2010-06-23 06:05
No disagreement with any of that, but:
(a) I still can't understand Demetrius' special reference to Australia. The law here is not markedly different from other countries;
(b) I really doubt that if someone were to quote from a book released by PGA, (which usually means the author died before 1956), there would an action raised in a French court for a breach of copyright.
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blay_paul
2010-06-23 07:49
> (b) I really doubt that if someone were
> to quote from a book released by PGA,
> (which usually means the author died before
> 1956), there would an action raised in a
> French court for a breach of copyright.

My feeling is that, if you show good faith, this is a "it's better to beg forgiveness than ask permission" kind of thing.
Demetrius
2010-06-23 09:40
> (a) I still can't understand Demetrius'
> special reference to Australia. The law
> here is not markedly different from other
> countries;
It was just an example. And I've used it because I hapenned to know about Project Gutenberg Australia. ^^
Scott
2010-06-23 16:06
Yes I guess that the same problem would apply to Canada.

WP: According to s. 6 of the Act the copyright of a work lasts the life of the author plus 50 years from the end of the calendar year of death.
blay_paul
2010-06-19 10:15
TAGS: Quote, By-Foo, From-Foo

In the old style WWWJDIC tags you had things like [Quote, Romeo and Juliet, Shakespeare]. My suggestion for the current system is (up to) three tags.

Quote
By-Shakespeare
From-Romeo and Juliet

My reasoning is a) Clicking on 'Quote' will show all the quotes. b) Including 'By-' makes it clear that the author / speaker is being referred to, c) Including 'From-' makes it clear that the source (book, play, film, etc.) is being referred to.

I'd suggest that other related tags be brought into line with that system.

Comments and suggestions welcome.
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Scott
2010-06-21 03:10
I would skip the By- From- parts as it makes the process more tedious and is not essential, in my opinion.
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Demetrius
2010-06-21 09:36
By- part would allow the automatic processing of the tags.

Also, Non Caesar supra grammaticos has Caesar tag because it's related to Caesar, not because it's about him.
sysko
2010-06-21 02:33
I think it's a pretty good idea
Scott
2010-06-20 03:08
Search is broken.
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sysko
2010-06-20 10:52
repared (why does this happen during my sleep time ^^)
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Scott
2010-06-20 17:26
That's when the mice come out and get inside your computer :D.
blay_paul
2010-06-20 06:19
Where's the Sentence Annotation page disappeared to?
MUIRIEL
2010-06-18 06:46
Someone who can speak
FRENCH AND JAPANESE AND ENGLISH
should please correct the list "English and French don't match".
There are now 70 non-matching English-Frech pairs (directly linked!). The problem is that in the majority of cases they also have a direct Japanese translation in common. So I guess that mostly at least one of the translations won't match with the Japanese neither.

Thank you in advance =) !
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JimBreen
2010-06-18 07:29
I have chipped away at that list a few times, but it takes work. For example, the first is: J'arrête de fumer./私は禁煙します。/I gave up smoking. As kurisutofu commented last month, the tenses are screwed up. The French is present, the English is past and the Japanese is present/future. The best fix is to change the French to "J'ai arrêté de fumer" and the Japanese to "私は禁煙しました", which makes them all past tense. However such wholesale modifications are discouraged, so I back off.

Perhaps we need a agreement that it is OK to bring disparate sentence groups into agreement on matters of tense, aspect, etc.?

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MUIRIEL
2010-06-18 16:56
I agree. In such cases when sentences nearly but not perfectly match, they shouldn't be unlinked if they can be corrected. I think the really important rule is to never change sentences if you're not sure that ALL the direct translations will match after the changement.
brauliobezerra
2010-06-17 17:01
Anyone, please add a Polish sentence :)
blay_paul
2010-06-12 10:17
MeCab 管理人

Could we get a volunteer to take charge of MeCab / MeCab dictionary improvements? There are some things that look like easy fixes (一晩中 ひとばんじゅう) and some things that are just weird glitches (ご覧 has no okurigana). I don't really have the time to look into it myself so I think another person is needed.
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JimBreen
2010-06-17 07:52
As I have commented, adding to MeCab's dictionary won't fix all these. You really have to fix it on a case-by-case basis. The WWWJDIC indices would help here, although not all sentences are indexed.
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blay_paul
2010-06-17 08:14
Yes, but _some_ of them should be fixable via dictionary. Looking at the list
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences_lists/show/113
I'd suspect that most of them could be.
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JimBreen
2010-06-17 08:29
Looking at the first one (アマゾン川は延々と北ブ流れている) I'd say it's a mistake by whoever programmed the MeCab interface in Tatoeba. アマゾン川 is handled correctly by MeCab:
アマゾン川 名詞,固有名詞,一般,*,*,*,アマゾン川,アマゾンガワ,アマゾンガワ

The second one (母にひと月に一度手紙を書きます) is the same. Mecab handles ひと月 OK, but Tatoeba ignores it.
ひと月 名詞,一般,*,*,*,*,ひと月,ヒトツキ,ヒトツキ

I think someone is not noticing the kanji at the end of the string returned.

Which dictionary is being used, BTW?
Demetrius
2010-06-15 10:56
Any trusted_user can link anyone’s sentences by simply changing the link structure. Shouldn’t there be some check?..
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TRANG
2010-06-15 13:10
Yes, there should. But it's also not a big issue because trusted users are trusted, and because I'm planning to let them link any sentence someday ^^

In the long run, we will let everyone link (but not anything of course), and in a way that is more coherent that how it's currently done.
cburgmer
2010-06-15 11:55
Movie titles

There's a short discussion on http://tatoeba.org/deu/sentences/show/347564 whether movie titles are to be considered sentences.

For me they are just normal vocabulary entries and can already be found in online dictionaries like HanDeDict (for Chinese-German) or I guess EDICT (Japanese-English).

I have to say I don't like the idea of collecting titles of movies/books that much as many translations are really non-literal. "Da Vinci Code" is "Sakrileg" in German. No connection at all.

I'd also argue that Wikipedia already has the link structure, so we don't really collect additional knowledge here.

Maybe somebody else has some good points on this.
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Demetrius
2010-06-15 12:10
OK. I suggest tagging these with the “non-sentence” tag.

But still, it’s not clear why can’t we think of them as of nominative sentences. Like an answer to the question “What have you read/seen this week?”
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cburgmer
2010-06-15 12:25
Another issue I have is that basically titles cannot be translated freely. This is opposite to what Tatoeba defines for most other entries.

Example "To Kill a Mockingbird". In German it was translated as "Wer die Nachtigall stört". A literal translation would be "Die Spottdrossel töten" (Mockingbirgs are confined to the North American continent, so it is changed to reflect a bird native to Middle Europe).

Now we rely on metadata to actually edit this sentence. While tags (the metadata) were introduced to provide extra information we would here need them to actually define the sentence. I'm not saying this can't be done, but I believe this is a very ugly situation.
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Demetrius
2010-06-15 12:30
Those setences were added before the advent of tags, and they didn’t cause much confusion.

You are free to add a literal translation of these, too.
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cburgmer
2010-06-15 13:06
That's not the point. Most people will translate sentences regardless of the tag which just provides additional but not "normative" value.
xtofu80
2010-06-15 15:40
I do remember stumbling upon a sentence which was a title or proverb, but literally translated into another language, which made no sense. Personally I would appreciate embedding these into a simple sentence such as "Yesterday I watched the movie "...", or "Have you read the novel "..."?" From the surrounding sentence, every reader can see that it is in fact a title of a book, etc. Proverbs should be tagged with an appropriate tag. I guess that would be a viable solution.
Demetrius
2010-06-15 12:05
Movie titles are somewhere in-between the full sentences and the vocabulary entries. «To Kill a Mockingbird» looks like a dictionary entry (though the capitalisation is different), while «For Whom the Bell Tolls» certainly doesn’t.

There are also newspaper headlines and blurbs that can’t be found in Wikipedia, though represent an important part of the language. See comments to the sentence http://tatoeba.org/sentences/show/328055#comments
blay_paul
2010-06-13 23:52
Soliciting donations?

Maybe a discreet paypal donation link would be a good idea. I mean, if you had more money to spare I'm sure there are things that could be done with it. (Providing database software to a certain highly active member, or something, for example. :-P
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TRANG
2010-06-14 23:03
Well, I could write a lot about this, but in short, the problem is not money, it's time ^^