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sharptoothed
4 days ago
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Thanuir
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ondo
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cblanken
15 days ago
[eng]Hello, from now I'm going to ask other contributors before giving to someone the status "corpus maintener" status.
So let's start now.
I plan to give it to Alexmarcelo, as he's contributing for now more than 8 months, he has also contributed in audio, seems to have never been involved in "violent" discussion, nor to have purposely violate rules
So if anyone is against this, I let you it there, and in 5 days if I get no major reason to not grant him this status I will do it.Feel free to tell if you support him too.
[fra]
À partir de maintenant je compte demander l'avis des contributeurs avant d'octroyer à un utilisateur le statut de "mainteneur du corpus".
Commençons donc cela avec Alexmarcelo, il est avec nous depuis plus de 8 mois, et à toujours eu à ma connaissance une attitude irréprochable, n'a jamais délibérément enfreint les règles, ni été impliqués dans des discussions houleuses.
Si quelqu'un cependant veut s'y opposer, il peut le faire ici, et si dans 5 jours je n'ai reçu aucune raison valable de ne pas le faire, alors je changerai son statut. Évidemment si vous soutenez le fait qu'il devienne mainteneur du corpus, vous pouvez aussi le dire.
Alexmarcelo has my support.
>seems to have never been involved in "violent" discussion, nor to have purposely violate rules
Now if you ask me (I know you don't), then I have reservations on : Swift, Zifre, arcticmonkey, Vortarulo, JimBreen, CK and Demetrius, who have shown agressivity towards every challenge to their apartheid conception of English supremacy.
They are not worthy of the role.
I wish there were more Alexmarcelos, who is talented, dedicated, helpful and humble.
And I fortgot Scott, who not only is also an English supremacist, but also a saboteur and, along with CK, wants not only to impose their linguistic views, but also their ridiculous local (and loose) moral standards to the universe, such as their "not for safe search" and "XXX" tags.
Here is an anthology:
http://tatoeba.org/epo/sentences/show/1183763
http://tatoeba.org/epo/sentences/show/1336936
http://tatoeba.org/epo/sentences/show/328035
http://tatoeba.org/epo/sentences/show/402576
http://tatoeba.org/epo/sentences/show/1871
I think that people who don't understand the relativity of social standards should in no way interfere in, let alone administer, international communities, that are, by definition, diverse.
Reading this wall comment reminded me of why I decided to stop contributing to Tatoeba.
I can't understand that comments like this are tolerated and allowed to remain on the wall. According to sacredceltic, half of Tatoeba's Corpus Maintainers are involved in some kind of English supremacist conspiracy.
The term "English supremacist" is highly insulting. It implies membership in a racist movement (look up supremacism). There should be a clear policy to prohibit this kind of comment.
Now, to explain my departure.
I was finding it increasingly difficult to keep on contributing to a project where a single lunatic is allowed to have such influence. Sacredceltic has again and again insulted other users, implied that they were part of conspiracies, that they had agendas, that they weren't native speakers of their own language, added tags that were clearly inappropriate etc. He also treats his own way of speaking the French language as the one and only correct way of speaking, not understanding that there are other regionalisms, dialects, and that sometimes it's possible that sentences that he would find unnatural still be correct French in other parts of the world or even for other users from different social classes, backgrounds, etc. This kind of behavior should have gotten him banned or at least severely warned.
There's yet again another discussion right now (http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/1238047) where sacredceltic is accusing rene1596 and U2FS of not being real natives, but rather saboteurs, etc. and all sorts of other mad ramblings.
While this doesn't really affect most languages on Tatoeba, it makes it difficult to keep on contributing to the English and especially French languages for any length of time. It's impossible to avoid at some point getting into an argument with sacredceltic. These arguments are always the same and end up becoming very bitter with sacredceltic escalating quickly to personal insults. Even native speakers of English are not immune. (take this sentence as an example http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentence...1978#comments)
One other thing that I must mention is that sacredceltic's behavior is intimidating. Few users are willing to argue with him, probably because they know that he will argue forever, never answer the voice of reason and that the discussion will become extremely bitter. I have tried to argue with sacredceltic and I have only succeeded in wasting my time.
This means that few users are willing to publicly call out sacredceltic when he says unreasonable things or proposes erroneous corrections. Quite simply, even if they know that what sacredceltic said is wrong or unacceptable, few users are willing to comment or point it out because they know that this would lead them to become embroiled in a long and acrimonious discussion. This stifles the quality of discussion and disrupts the normal functioning of Tatoeba.
It also means that sacredceltic's comments often remain there, unanswered, leading new users or visitors to believe that he may be right. It also leads users to believe that personal insults, etc. are accepted behavior on this website and that's possibly scaring away many potential contributors. I also suspect that at this point the admins themselves are scared of directly confronting sacredceltic, and they rarely do so (or at least they're scared of wasting their time!).
I know that right now, Tatoeba is run by only one person, twenty year old Sysko, who is working hard in China and still manages to do a lot to keep Tatoeba up and running. I commend him for his courage and dedication to the project. I don't think that it would be reasonable to ask sysko to do more than he already does or to micromanage user behavior. That's a task that should probably be delegated to other moderators or corpus maintainers, helped by a policy on user behavior. But whoever does it, I think that something should be done to curb disruptive behavior.
Sorry for the long comment, but I decided to write this because I think that someone needs to point out publicly how disruptive sacredceltic is to this community.
The actual reason for your stopping your contribution is your bitterness at having stood corrected by 2 native french speakers and it is here http://tatoeba.org/fre/sentence...comment-138461 for everyone to see.
Bitterness at being wrong is bad counsel...I don't know who is more lunatic of he who wants to write a proper sentence in his native language or the one who stubbornly insists that natives are wrong although he is inept at the language...
As for being aware of and acknowledging dialects and various variants of language, I am on the front, since I live in a country that has several different dialects of French, several of Dutch and even of German. I actually often create dialectal sentences on Tatoeba myself ( see "Belgian French" tag).
Your own dialect has nothing to do with Canadian French, which I also know very well. Yours is just a veil that you use to mask your ignorance.
You are a native English speaker who is posing as a native bilingual, but we know it's wrong and that any Canadian french native speaker would not write "il est un étudiant"...It's basic French that children learn very early...
As for corpus maintainers, it is a fact that a number of them, anglophiles, and for some of them openly esperantophobes, have openly expressed themselves on this very wall in the past against the use of other languages than English on the wall. I call it supremacism because that is what it is.
Funnily enough, there are also other silent corpus maintainers who I never had a problem with.
Of course, you would love to rule French alone on Tatoeba, because that would be such a thrill for a Canadian English, often so bitter of not having been able to deport and wipe out all Acadians.
I won't let this happen in silence.
"often so bitter of not having been able to deport and wipe out all Acadians."
I agree with Scott on this, that sentences is totally unacceptable and you would have been the first to violently react if one was to say something like this. That's part of the message that I will delete from now. whatever it's one among a massive neutral text.
Then erase the "lunatic". That was an unprovoked ad hominem attack.
pas de problème, si Scott veut bien refaire comme tu as fait, le même message sans le lunatique, on va pouvoir avancer dans le débat.
Je veux bien, mais comment j'efface le message?
Ce n'est pas le plus pratique j'avoue, mais tu peux faire comme Sacredceltic, reposter ton message, et lui même remettra sa version edulcorée, et on pourra reprendre, et si vous deux me le permettez je supprimerai cette embranchement de la discussion.
Actually, you can delete it, here's the short version:
Something should be done to curb disruptive behavior. Disruptive users can degrade the quality of Tatoeba in subtle ways and aggressive or intimidating behavior should not be tolerated.
That's a task that should probably be delegated to designated corpus maintainers, helped by a policy on user behavior. This policy should be written and agreed upon by the majority of the community.
I should also add that I identified sacredceltic as a disruptive user in the original message and linked to the following sentences.
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/1238047
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/881978
It should go without saying that all disputes can and should be settled in a spirit of cooperation, without special rools and regulations, but apparently that's not allways the case. Je regrette beaucoup.
>>Funnily enough, there are also other silent corpus maintainers who I never had a problem with.
It's not too hard to get along with someone who is silent...
>>As for corpus maintainers, it is a fact that a number of them, anglophiles, and for some of them openly esperantophobes, have openly expressed themselves on this very wall in the past against the use of other languages than English on the wall.
If that ever was the case I doubt that anybody opposes the fact that "All languages are equal on Tatoeba" anymore.
>>often so bitter of not having been able to deport and wipe out all Acadians.
That's an example of something that's not acceptable to say.
>It's not too hard to get along with someone who is silent...
Silent in this debate. But we exchange a lot, have no problems with each other and respect each other and each other's work very much.
Yes! Nobody opposes the use of other languages on the wall anymore and no corpus maintainers dares to insult Esperanto anymore...thanks in part to me!
...
facepalm.jpg
Yes Demetrius, you were among the first ones writing nasty comments and sentences to try to ridicule Esperanto with your friends. They're still there to see...before you delete them out of shame!
facepalm.jpg
The actual reason for your stopping your contribution is your bitterness at having stood corrected by 2 native french speakers and it is here http://tatoeba.org/fre/sentence...comment-138461 for everyone to see.
Bitterness at being wrong is bad counsel...I don't know who is more lunatic of he who wants to write a proper sentence in his native language or the one who stubbornly insists that natives are wrong although he is inept at the language...
As for being aware of and acknowledging dialects and various variants of language, I am on the front, since I live in a country that has several different dialects of French, several of Dutch and even of German. I actually often create dialectal sentences on Tatoeba myself ( see "Belgian French" tag).
Your own dialect has nothing to do with Canadian French, which I also know very well. Yours is just a veil that you use to mask your ignorance.
You are a native English speaker who is posing as a native bilingual, but we know it's wrong and that any Canadian french native speaker would not write "il est un étudiant"...It's basic French that children learn very early...
As for corpus maintainers, it is a fact that a number of them, anglophiles, and for some of them openly esperantophobes, have openly expressed themselves on this very wall in the past against the use of other languages than English on the wall. I call it supremacism because that is what it is.
Funnily enough, there are also other silent corpus maintainers who I never had a problem with.
Of course, you would love to rule French alone on Tatoeba, because that would be such a thrill for a Canadian English.
I won't let this happen in silence.
Great to have Alex as a maintainer.
I'm sorry you stopped contributing, Scott. I find it quite easy to ignore whatshisname's ranting, and even have a chuckle when he includes you, me, CK et al. among the elect "English supremacists".
I don't have a lot of time to spend on Tatoeba matters, and have to concentrate on the Japanese indices mostly. I think Sysko is doing a great job. がんばって.
@sacredceltic
I guess you know how much I appreciate your work for tatoeba. But after your last statements I want to give you a small advice. Maybe it will be helpful, if you ask yourself one question concerning your above named colleagues: "Is it possible that they really all are ill-minded characters?”
I didn't say that they are "Ill minded". But some of them definitely are.
When I arrived in this community, it was dominated by what we call in French "La pensée unique" and whoever dared to challenge the English domination status quo was instantly pilloried.
You don't need to be I'll-minded to conform to the status quo. Many Chinese who want tibetan Buddhist monks to die are well-minded. They actually think that they are nasty retards...
The worst criminals are actually people with good intentions...
I don't mind my status being taken away. I don't have much time to dedicate to Tatoeba anyway. :)
Alex has my support too.
Count me in!
Alex would be a great corpus maintener!
I've no reservations.
That's a definite yes!
I'm for Alexmarcelo.
In my limited experience and from looking at his contributions, he seems to have a clear understanding of the structure of corpus and there is every reason to believe he will benefit the project.
Obrigado a todos pela confiança!
Alex has my full support. He will make an excellent corpus maintainer!
Alexmarcelo has my support.
He has my support too.
He has my support too, of course!
I support Alex by the way!
Perfect :)
Is there a way to see the sentences I added via "Add sentence"? That is, sentences which are not translations of other sentences, but "new" sentences.
I usually just translate, but I added a few new sentences days ago and don't remember them...
Do you mean this http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/of_user/Vortarulo ? It will show you all the sentences that you have added.
No, I actually meant all sentences that I have originally added, as in "invented myself". Usually I translate existing sentences, but I sometimes like to go back to see if someone has translated sentences that I added from scratch, so to speak.
marcelstockle just sent me a list and I'm going through them. It's exactly as I wanted it. So great. ^^
This is one of them: http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/1081209 :)
http://tatoeba.org/deu/wall/show_message/10983
I will PM them to you
That's great! Sounds like a really useful tool. Thanks already!
In the continuation of doing/solving as many things/problems as I can during my two weeks of vacation (think I'm crazy or not, I like doing this)
From now I will DELETE (not move in private message or so) any reference in comment or the wall to any user of this service that state about his nationality, his capability to speak a language , being native or not, his mental sanity or not
For this things, and that was the last time I say it, it's one things, private message to me.
If you suspect a user to not be native, to do harm to the corpus, to harass you by private message. you contact me by private message, And I will take care of contacting this user or any user I will judge good to contact, in order to make an impartial opinion and to take a decision, as wise as I can. about what to do.
If after this I judge it is necessary to warn or inform all the users, then I will post it MYSELF on the wall.
It applies from now and to all future message, I've no time to re-read previous comments etc.
As said before, that do apply to a very minority of user/message (actually it's more some couples of users) , so I think I can handle this.
of course I will say when I delete any message, so that it does not feel strange on the discussion.
[eng]Remember my offer last week? Well, I'm giving up on that because I have a much better offer:
I just finished an "all-purpose special query engine" for Tatoeba. Which in practice means that from today on I'm offering personalized queries.
What can of queries? Practically anything, except for words (like, sentences with "WordA"). For example, you may want to have all sentences in Spanish, longer than 20 characters, linked to less than 3 sentences, and from a certain user. Or maybe all original sentences (@Vortarulo: I can send you your original sentences), in Esperanto, Russian and German, untranslated to English, or translated to Spanish or Swahili. Or maybe you want translations for sentences in Esperanto, linked to more than 10 sentences, owned by al_ex_an_der or Dejo.
Pretty much everything.
The results are displayed in an html file with the sentences and links to them.
A couple examples:
Original sentences by me:
http://www.divshare.com/download/16618621-447
Sentences in Spanish linked to less than 2 sentences, untranslated to English, and linked to sentences linked to less than 2 sentences:
http://www.divshare.com/download/16618624-4f3
The results for any query are updated only every Saturday.
If anyone wants to make a specialized query, send me a private message describing your query, and I'll send it to you ASAP.
[eng] Proposal for good behaviour concerning tagging. in order to ease solve of "tagging" conflic, and to make them more usefull
1 - When someone add a tag, it would be better if one precise it in comment of the sentence, in order for the sentence owner to keep trace of it (and people who commented the sentence, especially if the tag is the result of a conflict in the comments)
So that it will be easier to react to tag if someone disagree, and for the tag owner, to be warned when someone comment on the sentence (especially to ask for removing the tag, like for @change flag etc.)
Moreover it will decrease the number of people thinking this or that user is doing some vendetta on his/her sentences
2 - Do the same for moderators or tags owner when they remove a tag, so that it add more transparency.
So that user can ask for the removal of any tag that has not been justified by the one who added it.
---------------------
Now concerning tag:
As Swift started it some moths ago (as requested by Trang) I will also try to start to remove all the useless tag ( I will keep a thread on the wall about it), in order to remove "troll tags", and tags which have already an equivalent.
And by so I will try to keep somewhere a list of troll tag that I don't want to see on Tatoeba
-------------------
If people disagree with this, or agree, or want to add something, feel free to do it. ( I have something to do, and then I will provide a French version of it, but if someone wants to do it, same for other languages, especially esperanto, german and spanish, it would be really appreciated)
I would really like to remove all the tags for sentence patterns. For example: SVO, -as, ます。, as ... as, 2nd Person, etc.
I don't think these tags are at all useful for most users. If certain users want to keep track of these thing for their own projects, they can use lists.
>"I would really like to remove all the tags for sentence >patterns."
I understand that they may be not very useful in the eyes of many, but I can assure you that they are of essential importance for others.
Tags can be very useful but certainly have to be handled thoughtfully, to avoid an evolution into chaos. I’m sure we will easily agree that the number of (different) tags used shouldn’t grow unlimited. I’d like to make a rather simple first proposal to make it easier to overview the list of tags. If possible I’d prefer all quotation tags (all tags beginning with “by”) to be filtered away and presented in a separate list. What’s your opinion on that?
Etikedoj povas esti tre utilaj, sed certe oni traktu ilin kun pripenso, por eviti evoluon en kaoson. Mi estas certa, ke ni povos facile konsenti, ke la nombro de (diversaj) uzataj etikedoj ne kresku senlime. Mi deziras fari sufiĉe simplan unuan proponon, por plifaciligi superrigardon de la etikedo-listo. Se tio eblas, mi preferas, ke ĉiuj citaj etikedoj (ĉiuj etikedoj komencantaj per “by”) estu elfiltrataj kaj prezentataj en aparta listo. Kion vi opinias pri tio?
> If possible I’d prefer all quotation tags (all tags beginning with “by”) to be filtered away and presented in a separate list. What’s your opinion on that?
I think this is a great idea.
in the future, I will introduce meta information on sentences so that all these tags will become
meta:
key value
author : (Victor Hugo/Willian B. Yeats)
rather than the "one block" current tag system
1) Tags are visible to anyone, so they should convey universal information, useful to everybody.
Tags that are moral judgements, such as "XXX" and "not for safe search", as they are not even defined and cannot be, by any standards, have nothing to do on sentences either. I suggest they be removed once and for all.
People can always create private lists according to their own private moral or religious standards, which are none of other people's business, and certainly not mine.
2) Tags containing the character ":" do not work if you click on them from the sentence, in order to consult the corresponding list.
The character ":" should be replaced by something else...
“I’ m strongly convinced that names of contributors shouldn't appear inside the sentences.” Having had expressed my opinion in a recent comment, I had to learn, that this had already been done in several hundred cases.
If the aim is building a corpus this doesn't look like a serious approach and is apt to make the project ridiculous, at least in the eyes of scientists. We should discuss how to handle this issue.
Hmm I don't understand why should it matter if the character of the sentence is called Tom or Eldad (for example)if the sentence is still valid, natural and written without mistakes.
I see two problems here:
a) Someone might feel offended if someone else writes a sentence about him on Tatoeba.
b) Someone translating a sentence from another language might wonder what "borocasli" (for instance) means and decide not to translate it, because he thinks it's a word he happens not to know.
Other than that, I'm undecided and haven't made an opinion yet.
Does a contributor have the right to have a sentence about him removed or changed? I hope this is the case.
> Does a contributor have the right to have a sentence
> about him removed or changed? I hope this is the case.
Not really. :P
Search for "is slandering me": http://tatoeba.org/sentences/se...rom=und&to=und :)
More seriously, yes sure if one is offensed by a sentence targetting him, we will remove it.
>b) Someone translating a sentence from another language might wonder what "borocasli" (for instance) means and decide not to translate it, because he thinks it's a word he happens not to know.
I raised this problem multiple times about the translation of names in general, not only those of the contributors.
"Tom" might well be a washing powder brand in Latvian or an insult in Tadjik...
I sometimes come by sentences on Tatoeba, where names have not been translated, and I'm unable to determine what the name is (person/brand/place...?), owing to the ambiguity of the sentence.
I really don't think it makes much of a difference if the contributors names are shown or not in terms of validity. I think the appeal is that more people will contribute if they get some sort of recognition for what they have done. I think the adopt feature is a really nice tool for making sure that the sentences are correct.
>I think the adopt feature is a really nice tool for making sure that the sentences are correct.
Precisely! And that is what the founder, Trang, recommended!
To adopt a sentence is to stamp it and guarantee that somebody is responsible for it.
I strongly recommend contributors NOT TO TRANSLATE sentences that have no owner and that are not stamped "OK" by some REAL native. Because there's a big chance they're wrong. Not always, but often!
I agree. Do you think it would be reasonable to make it impossible to translate unadopted sentences? Or would that be too extreme?
At least with English, I think a significant portion of the sentences that remain unadopted are unnatural and sometimes even incomprehensible.
I already recommended that we should DELETE all unadopted sentences that are not tagged OK by REAL natives and not native saboteurs. OK, maybe we would thus delete a few hundred good sentences, but we'd also get rid of a lot of shit, and good sentences will be re-created at some point anyway, especially since more contributors will be attracted to a cleaner corpus when the current corpus makes some flee nowadays...
When your first contact with Tatoeba is a couple of erroneous sentences, especially if you are a professional, you just move on...
I think we can propose this for french and english (I first need to recheck the recent unadopted french sentences first then)
As I think these two languages have been enough proofreaded, for Japanese it seems to me some users are currently doing it, so may be not a good idea to do it right now to Japanese (as anyway one of the goal of Tatoeba was also to purify the tanaka corpus)
Also, (I think?) most of the Japanese sentences were written by native speakers, unlike the English sentences. So they're probably natural, but might not match the English translations.
I'd be okay with (at least) deleting all the Japanese-English pairs that are unadopted and have no translations.
ne nur ni aldonas frazojn pri kontribuantoj, sed ankaŭ frazojn
pri frazoj http://tatoeba.org/epo/sentence...om=und&to=und,
pri la tekstaro http://tatoeba.org/epo/sentences/show/1079308
pri Tatoeba http://tatoeba.org/epo/tags/sho...h_tag/Tatoeba,
pri Tom kaj Mary http://tatoeba.org/epo/tags/sho..._of_sentences,
pri koito kaj frazoj http://tatoeba.org/epo/sentences/show/1076252
...
It's a free world!
* It's a free world...that many would like to censor http://tatoeba.org/epo/tags/sho...or_safe_search
Kion sciencistoj faris por ni?
Laŭ mi, frazo pri kontribuanto havas saman valoron ol frazo pri Tom. Kaj [ˈtɒm] estas speco da fromaĵo en mia nacia lingvo...
> “I’ m strongly convinced that names of contributors shouldn't appear inside the sentences.”
Why? What's wrong about having a few sentences about boracasli?
What is important is that sentences about boracasli are as rare as they are in real texts. I.e. we shouldn't add every other sentence about him.
> If the aim is building a corpus this doesn't look like
> a serious approach and is apt to make the project ridiculous,
> at least in the eyes of scientists.
Can you please explain in what way it makes the corpus ridiculous?
> We should discuss how to handle this issue.
sacredceltic suggested replacing all personal references with placeholders of some sort. If this were implemented, we could also replace nicknames.
But I'm personally not sure if this is worth implementing, since Tatoeba aims at having sentences 'as raw as possible', and this will add another layer of pre-processing.
In response to a comment by Demetrius but split to a separate thread due to the change in subject.
“I don't mind my status being taken away. I don't have much time to dedicate to Tatoeba anyway. :)”[1]
There is no harm in having extra corpus maintainers. If anything it might get people back. For the time you do spend on Tatoeba, it makes resolving issues easier and reduces the load on the more active maintainers who then would have to respond to your requests.
I think we should have a very low bar to grant corpus maintainer rights. Basically, you get them if you understand the project well enough that you won't make mistakes and won't run amok.
[1] http://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/sho...#message_10940
[not needed anymore- removed by CK]
And if you don't own Microsoft stocks, you can also use other software on other operating systems...
I use Audacity on Mac OSX. It's also free.
Has it been discussed the possibility of having a request corner? I mean, considering the situations when a user feels there are too little sentences using a certain word, and supposing the user would like to study its usage in certain contexts.
As I imagine it, it doesn't need to have a forum-like structure, but it could be just enough having a list with requested entries, consisting each just of a "word" and its language, and allowing commentaries for each entry, so the user(s) could give further details for the request, and fix a "fulfilled" status or tag that a moderator could verify and make the deletion of the entry.
that's for sure a good idea, but I don't really when i will have time to implement one, maybe as i will try to have a wiki with the new version of tatoeba, in a first time we can imagine a "quick and dirty" page which will be used for that purpose, waiting for a more "organized" system.
Meanwhile we can just add a "requested words" section on our profiles' description.
yep also possible.
That's a really good idea, Marcelo!
No one else?
Oui, très bonne idée !
D'ailleurs, en attendant, si quelqu'un veut que je crée des phrases en français avec un mot particulier, il suffit de m'envoyer un message et je le ferai avec plaisir.
At first glance I've read "rest corner" and was quite enthusiastic, but a "request corner" is a good idea too.
(fr) En désaccord avec moi sur la question de savoir si nous devons traduire les prénoms existant dans diverses langues sous des formes différentes (je tiens pour ma part qu'il faut traduire les prénoms lorsque c'est possible), un ami m'écrit ce qui suit : "[Je] trouve qu'il serait [bon] que les instances supérieures de Tatoeba décident de remplacer tous les prénoms par des pronoms. [Ça] éviterait ce problème, et ça éviterait aussi les doublons, car au lieu d'avoir, "Paul tenait sa tête hors de l'eau", "Tom tenait sa tête hors de l'eau", etc., on aurait juste "Il tenait sa tête hors de l'eau"."
Une décision ou, au moins, une recommandation sur ce point me paraîtrait en effet utile. La raison avancée pour que nous préférions les pronoms me semble très forte.
Il faudrait cependant disposer quelque part (peut-être dans un tableau spécial, séparé des phrases) des équivalences d'une langue à l'autre entre les prénoms (et d'autres noms propres : certains noms de villes ou de fleuves, par exemple). J'ai longtemps cru à tort qu'un avocat croate qui se nommait lui-même, sans traduire, "Ivo", ne portait pas le nom de l'avocat saint "Yves", mais bien celui de "Jean". Un tel tableau m'aurait utilement détrompé. Il peut être important pour un voyageur ou pour au traducteur de textes historiques ou géographiques de savoir qu'un "Willem", un "Guglielmo" et un "Vilmos" peuvent être une même personne, qui sera en français nommée "Guillaume", ou encore que "Fiume" et 'Rijeka" sont deux noms d'une même ville, ou "Pozsony", "Pressbourg" et "Bratislava" des noms d'une même autre.
Je suis également très en faveur de la traduction des prénoms pour 3 raisons :
1) Certains prénoms ne sont tout simplement pas prononçables dans la langue cible.
2) certains prénoms ne sont tout simplement pas IDENTIFIABLES comme des prénoms dans la langue cible (ils ressemblent à des noms communs, des noms de lieux ou de marques de lessive, voire à des injures...)
Ceci a pour conséquence que certains traducteurs traduisent les phrases SANS SAVOIR QU'IL S'AGIT DE PRÉNOMS, ce qui a des conséquences éventuelles dramatiques sur la traduction !
Je suis particulièrement sensible à ce problème, résidant dans un pays où la ville de « Liège » est tantôt indiquée sur les panneaux comme "Luik" et tantôt comme »Lüttich«, ce qui est garanti de confondre tout touriste qui n'est pas de la région (il n'y a que les locaux que ça amuse...)
3) les phrases d'exemple doivent être exemplaires d'un point de vue linguistique comme d'un point de vue culturel, puisque la culture est inséparable de la langue.
Ceci a déjà été débattu et j'ai fait une proposition technique dans ce débat http://tatoeba.org/epo/wall/sho...4#message_6454
Je la résume :
Je propose que soit maintenue, pour certaines langues dans lesquelles c'est possible, des listes de correspondance de traductions de noms propres, telles que vous les suggérez.
Un processus automatique, au moment de l'insertion d'une phrase, pourrait automatiquement vérifier cette liste et détecter qu'un mot qui fait partie de la liste est un prénom/nom de ville/etc...commun qui a des traductions.
Dans le cas des prénoms, qui n'ont pas d'importance pour le sens de la phrase (il faudrait exclure une liste de noms de personnages historiques), la phrase, au lieu d'être stockée telle quelle, serait stockée avec une "variable de prénom" <prénom variable>.
Donc par exemple :
1) vous insérez « Jean cueille des champignons. »
2) « Jean » faisant partie de la liste, Tatoeba enregistrerait automatiquement « <variable de prénom > cueille des champignons. »
3) Lorsque quelqu'un visualiserait cette phrase, un prénom serait tiré au hasard dans la liste, et visualiserait le résultat : « Henri cueille des champignons. », le suivant verrait, lui « Alain cueille des champignons. »
Avantages :
1) Ceci éviterait de stocker plusieurs fois la même phrase avec des prénoms différents, ce qui ne présente aucun intérêt.
2) En évitant ce stockage, on éviterait aussi les multiples re-traductions erronées des mêmes erreurs (il m'arrive fréquemment de corriger la même faute plusieurs fois dans des phrases dont seul le prénom changé...) ce qui entraîne souvent des erreurs de traductions en cascade...
Par exemple :
« Jean c*euille des chan*pignons »
« Henri c*euille des chan*pignons »
etc.
Inconvénients :
1) Il faudrait exclure les personnages célèbres dont le prénom ne doit pas être changé car il influe sur le sens de la phrase et la citation originale.
À cela 2 solutions :
1a) une simple liste d'exceptions de personnages historiques que la procédure pourrait vérifier.
1b) un indicateur à cocher, lors de l'insertion de la phrase, que le prénom en question n'est pas générique.
2) Les prénoms ont des genres qui peuvent influer les mots qui les entourent.
Par exemple, le genre, en français, affecte l'accord des participes et des adjectifs.
Il faudrait donc que la liste de prénoms soit agrémentée d'un attribut de genre, pour ne substituer que des masculins aux masculins et des féminins aux féminins.
Ceci ne pourrait pas fonctionner pour certaines langues, mais ça fonctionnerait pour des langues importantes comme l'anglais, l'espéranto, le français, l'espagnol, qui comptent des centaines de redondances de phrases où seuls les prénoms changent.
3) L'orthographe des prénoms peut influencer l'orthographe des mots qui les entourent.
exemple : le cheval de Jean / le cheval d'Alain
voir objection pour l'allemand http://tatoeba.org/epo/wall/sho...4#message_6474
solution : quelques règles orthographiques simples (analyse de la première lettre du prénom) pourraient être prises en compte dans la procédure.
En conclusion, ce que je propose ne fonctionne pas pour toutes les langues ni dans tous les cas, mais il aurait le mérite de RÉDUIRE le problème de duplication, re-traduction et re-correction de manière DRASTIQUE.