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Wall (5418 threads)

tinacalysto
2009-12-18 15:08
Hey guys, any chance of having Norwegian language added?

Thx and congrats for the great site (which has become my new hobbie)!

P.S.: Portuguese GET!
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TRANG
2009-12-23 01:15
Norwegian Bokmål has been added as a supported language :)

Please, when you have time, add a few sentences in this language to check if the language detection works properly.
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tinacalysto
2010-01-05 19:28
thank you. The language detection is working fine.
TRANG
2009-12-18 17:15
Yes, actually someone else has also requested us to add Norwegian. He actually asked to add both Norwegian Nynorsk and Norwegian Bokmål.

But for that, we're waiting until we have either :
1) Our own language detection system (because for now we're relying on Google's detection, which is reaching its limit...)
2) Or added a feature that enables people to indicate the language of the sentence (instead of having is systematically auto-detected).

Now you have to know that it is not forbidden to add Norwegian sentences, even if it's not "officially" supported. You will not be able to set the language as Norwegian (yet), but you can do that later, when we actually add Norwegian as a supported language.
Besides, it will actually give us some pressure to add it as soon as possible :P

Anyway thanks for your support! We're always glad to see motivated people like you joining the project :D
And congratulations for bringing Portuguese to the 6th position in terms of number of sentences!
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tinacalysto
2009-12-18 18:40
(Crap, I sent the message by mistake without having finished it)
Well, I don't think the bokmål/nynorsk differentiation would be a problem. Most online dictionaries I've seen so far deal with bokmål as the pattern.

(btw, thanks for your gentle commentary)
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TRANG
2009-12-19 21:01
The thing is, we want to be as accurate as possible.

I have no idea how different Bokmål and Nynorsk are, but I believe they are more different than the difference between Portuguese in Portugal and in Brazil. There must be a reason why there are two different language codes for each in the ISO 639-3 codes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_language).

Besides it could offend some people if we don't make the difference ^^'
tinacalysto
2009-12-18 18:37
>>>> You will not be able to set the language as Norwegian (yet), but you can do that later, [...]

Great, I'll do that. I don'
Regarding the bokmål/nynorsk differentiation, I guess something similar happens to Portuguese... in most cases one can handle to write a phrase that sounds like Brazilian Portuguese and that spoken in Portugal, but sometimes that's just impossible. Same thing for African Portuguese, which sounds to me almost like a different language. In this case I'm indicating in the phrase 'Portugal'/'Brazil'.
sysko
2009-12-18 17:28
and congratulation to have contribute to have made today the second (and with a little bit effort) day in term of contributions

http://tatoeba.fr/eng/contribut...ivity_timeline
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sysko
2009-12-18 17:39
* and with a little bit effort made it the first day , typed too fast sorry
Versuss
2009-12-22 16:27
Could we translate sentences into language not listed in the site?
I can translate it into Malay language.
P.S. Great site!!
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sysko
2009-12-22 16:50
For malay language wikipedia told me there's a lot of different malay, as we make difference between dialect, is this a specific form of malay or it's "standard malay" ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fi...f_Malaysia.svg
is this flag suitable ?
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Versuss
2009-12-22 18:11
Yes it's standard Malay. and there's isnt much dialects used contemporary days..the most well known should be Kelantanese, but standard Malay is spoken all over the country.
Yes that's the flag of the nation =)
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sysko
2009-12-23 08:49
ok, by the way could you correct the chinese sentences I've commented please :)
sysko
2009-12-22 16:47
the answer is just below
http://tatoeba.fr/eng/wall/index#message_58

spoiler : yes you can ;-)

thanks for your contributions in chinese :)
TRANG
2009-12-23 01:10
Normally we've added Malay as a supported language :)

You'll still have to add a few sentences to check that the language detection does work properly though.
grantortino
2009-12-18 13:58
why i cannot find my sentences in your search engine.
example:
Sentence nº340251
浅草寺にはずいぶんたくさんの人がいるんですね。
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TRANG
2009-12-18 17:28
Yes, we're not indexing on the fly. The main reason is that I didn't (and still don't) have time to figure out how to do that ^^'

Usually I launch the indexing process once a month but considering the increase of contributions, I think it'll be more once a week now...
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aaroned
2009-12-19 16:55
If you don't mind me asking, what kind of database engine is behind tatoeba.org? SQL Server/mySQL or other?
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TRANG
2009-12-19 19:59
It's MySQL :) But for the search feature we're using Lucene (http://lucene.apache.org/java/docs/).
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aaroned
2009-12-20 15:35
I regularly use SQL Server, so I'm not much help with mySQL, but maybe this link might help http://wiki.apache.org/lucene-java/UpdatingAnIndex
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TRANG
2009-12-20 23:32
Thanks :)

Right now though, I must say it doesn't speak much to me... Also, MySQL is not really the issue here (because I know MySQL and it doesn't help me :P).
The issue is to know how to use Lucene (which is written in Java). I just have to take the time to read the documentation.

The search engine part of Tatoeba was coded as a school project, at a time when I didn't have much knowledge in programming but had a good partner who knew Java and so he pretty much did all the coding.

Someday I'll have to look into his code. I'll probably have to upgrade to the latest version of Lucene as well because our code is from like, 2 years ago. Someday... When I have time.
sysko
2009-12-18 15:22
I'm not the one who made the search engine part, but it seems that the index is not updated in real time, certainly for perfomance reason, so in few times your sentences will be available :)
MUIRIEL
2009-12-18 12:45
Qu'est-ce que je fais si tatoeba ne reconnait pas la bonne langue d'une nouvelle traduction?
("Bill war in Japan." est allemand et ne parle pas d'une guerre au japon :D!)
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sysko
2009-12-18 13:18
il suffit de cliquer sur le drapeau de la phrase et de mettre le bon :)
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MUIRIEL
2009-12-18 13:51
ok, merci :).
mais ca marche seulement sur certaines conditions. et je vois pas sous lesquelles^^...
MUIRIEL
2009-12-18 13:52
ah non, laisse tomber, maintenant je vois^^.
aaroned
2009-12-16 18:14
With regards to Chinese entries, can we have some way of distinguishing between Traditional and Simplified entries?
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sysko
2009-12-16 21:10
In fact I was thinking to add an option to convert sentences in simplified chinese to traditionial chinese, and vice versa, wouldn't it be better that way ?
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aaroned
2009-12-17 04:55
Yeah that's a good idea. Means that all the existing entries, in either Traditional or Simplified will be preserved.
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aaroned
2009-12-17 05:51
The other thing regarding Chinese translations that probably needs consideration, is that there are 3 or 4 major regions where Chinese is spoken (Taiwan, Hong Kong, PRC, Singapore), but each region often has a slightly varied vocabulary set to represent the same meanings in another language. I'm no expert on this, but I'm pretty sure a Taiwanese person would translate the English word "Potato" to "馬鈴薯" whereas in the PRC (Mainland) they more commonly translate it to "土豆". Maybe we need the ability to choose the "Region" of our Chinese translations?
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sysko
2009-12-17 11:48
Yep we have recently migrate the code of language from iso 639 alpha 2 (name of languages coded on 2 letters) to alpha 3,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_639
which allow us to make more precise distinction about languages (as you can see there's already shanghainese)
but for the moment the problem is not really technical, but mostly ergonomical "how do we present it in a nice way, without overloading a sentence with billion of buttons",

moreover the problem can exist with french, canadian french etc... so I agree, its something we will need to handle one day or another
after we need to keep in mind that a beginner maybe don't want to see these regional variations, and only focus on "standard" version, so here come again the ergonomic problem

in fact for the moment if you plan to add "regional" sentences, just add in () which region it is, that people will be aware its not standard mandarin

I will notice you when we will be starting handle this :)

by the way thanks for your contributions :)
(French ?)
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aaroned
2009-12-17 12:28
Yeah I understand.

(When you get round to it, you could possibly make the flag icon a drop-down list of regions for that language, so that if we want to we can mark the translation as region specific.)

By the way I really like your site :).

I'm an Australian studying in Mainland China.
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sysko
2009-12-17 20:41
In fact for the moment the flag icon is used to change the language if the tool used to detect automatically which language your sentence is do a bad job (which happen with shanghainese /mandarin, or close language such as ukrainian and russian)
sysko
2009-12-16 01:31
Find a work around for those adding in right to left languages (such as arabic)
and who get a strange characters order (see http://tatoeba.fr/eng/sentences/show/340400 for an example)

just edit your sentences and this ‏ to end, it's the xml entities to indicate switching writing direction :), for some strange reason, independant of Tatoeba, I've got the same problem in different text editor while trying to repeat this bug, this control character is sometimes missing

I will try to find quickly a automatic way to get it work properly

Luai_lashire
2009-12-15 02:00
I've only just joined a few minutes ago.... I have favorited several sentences, but my profile still says I have 0 favorite sentences. Does it just take a while for them to show up, or is there some problem?

Also, what does it mean to "adopt" a sentence?
Sorry for newbish questions, but your site lacks a good "about" page that introduces all this to newcomers. :/
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sysko
2009-12-15 10:16
adopt means this sentence now belong to you, and you will be the only one allowed to make change on it, and you will receive email notification ( if set in your profile )if someone comments on it

that way we're sure that they will be no "war of edit" or people editing too much sentences

for favorite, you will soon seen them :)

have you checked http://tatoeba.fr/eng/pages/help ? ( in bottom right) ? (maybe not so much visible)
fajro
2009-12-08 03:07
Tatoeba should use a license without "by" like CC0:
http://creativecommons.org/about/cc0

Attribution is unnecessary and unpractical.
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sysko
2009-12-08 10:06
in fact it's only legal problem european law say one can't abandon his moral against a text, except 50 years after his death, 70 years in France, so CC0 can't be choosen
anyway we're looking if there's any problem to go to a less restrictive licence such as CC-BY, we will be sure at the end of the week
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fajro
2009-12-08 12:32
I like cc-sa (is almost Public Domain!) http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sa/1.0/ sadly "retired"

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sysko
2009-12-08 12:43
unfortunately as explain in my last message, due to european/french author right, attribution is mandatory and CC0 is still not clear whether it works in france or not, so we prefer to be safe, regardin that make law pursuit for copyright violiation is "fashion" in france ...

so the most "free" we can do is "CC-BY" ( for the moment my research hasn't show anything against it, but I prefer to check juridiction of main countries), when CC0 will be clearer regarding countries which has the notion of moral right (basically all european countries) , for further information, you can read the CC discussions pages, there, you can find more precise technical explanation :)
sysko
2009-12-08 10:15
*his moral right
that means globally that we must attribute works of contributors, as we're based in europe and a major part of contributions (except takana corpus original sentences) after some internal discussion we've realized that maybe CC-BY can be used, as Tatoeba MUST attribute works, after if people want to reuse the contributions without attributing it to original contributors, that will be their problem (in fact no problem as long as they don't reuse without attributing sentences or corrections from european contributors or other countries where public domain is different from US definition)
so the licence is only to make things clear

by the way, we wouldn't have take a long time to choose a licence or so if there were no threats nor possible juridical problem, I far prefer coding than looking into law books
sysko
2009-12-12 13:17
the content will now be licenced under CC-BY 2.0 FR, which is for the moment, the less restrictive we can do according to european law
tatoerique
2009-12-07 21:37
Is this a bug? When I do something like this:

-Add a new translation in a sentence for a language which were not present (e.g. Spanish).
-Press "show another" or go to another sentence to edit.
-Do a search for the sentence I edited in the first place, because I want to modify the Spanish translation.

The Spanish translation does not appear, and actually the sentence number of the sentence found does not match. If I add a Spanish translation to this, the sentence becomes duplicated (all languages). It occurs, for instance, in sentences 339047 and 339048.

Is this normal? Thanks in advance.
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TRANG
2009-12-08 22:07
Hmm, well, if I understood what you did, it's not a bug.

There is one thing in my todo list that I really should do (if only I had more time), and that is : hide all the translations when someone clicks on "Translate". Then people will probably understand better that they are not translating a group of sentence, but only one particular sentence.

So in your case, the sentence 339047 was a translation of an English sentence:

Can you deliver this? <-> Le importaría repartir esto?

When you added your translation, you also INDIRECTLY translated the Japanese sentence. Because initially you had:

配達してもらえませんか。<-> Can you deliver this?

And when you added your translation, here's what happened:

配達してもらえませんか。<-> Can you deliver this? <-> Le importaría repartir esto?

(See? Indirect translation.)

But when you did your search, you probably searched the Japanese sentence. And the search results only display sentences and their DIRECT translations.

So, you added a translation to the Japanese sentence, and the whole thing became linked this way:

Le importaría repartir esto? <-> 配達してもらえませんか。<-> Can you deliver this? <-> Le importaría repartir esto?

And now you have to know that when you BROWSE a sentence, we display both the direct AND the indirect translations. Which is why you will see two Spanish translations for http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/121527.
One is the direct translation. The other is the indirect translation.

Hopefully I understood properly your problem and that my explanation was somewhat clear...
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tatoerique
2009-12-10 20:13
Ok, I'm sorry if I caused trouble. I didn't know exactly how the direct & indirect translations work. I'll be more careful from now on. Thanks for the explanation.
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sysko
2009-12-11 09:14
anyway you're not the first and you're not the last :P
it's true that is not something which directly come to mind, the difference between direct and undirect translation
sysko
2009-12-07 01:56
Which will be the first, french to reach 26 000 sentences or chinese to reach 3000 ?
(congratulations for spanish contributors and esperanto, they have reach 2000 and 100 sentences ! :D )
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TRANG
2009-12-08 21:22
Apparently Chinese reached 3000 first =P
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sysko
2009-12-09 00:39
yep, wow 300+ sentences added today, congratulations to our hardcores translators in french / chinese and spanish,