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blay_paul blay_paul August 27, 2010 at 9:23 AM August 27, 2010 at 9:23 AM link Permalink

Thurday WWWJDIC example update summary.

42 records deleted.
7 new records added.

lehtolaj lehtolaj August 27, 2010 at 3:41 AM August 27, 2010 at 3:41 AM link Permalink

To the Staatlanders in Senegal. We wish to read the current Djembe nrewsletter.

Swift Swift August 26, 2010 at 8:05 PM August 26, 2010 at 8:05 PM link Permalink

I really hate to do this, but I think we've come to the stage where some discussion and possibly action is needed.

User boracasli[1] has been very prolific in contributing to Tatoeba in the last few days and currently has some 1245 sentences assigned to him. His enthusiasm is notable and the number of sentences and languages in which he's contributed would be laudable if not for the persistent errors that I and other contributors have identified.

Making mistakes is one thing, but these are persistent and should have been a hint to boracasli that his level of English is hardly "nearly expert" as he indicates on his profile page.

Worse still is the fact that this user has not fixed many of the errors that have been pointed out or responded to comments and messages (I'm assuming I'm not the only one who's tried to contact him privately).

I'd firstly like to request the attention of the community to look through boracasli's contributions as these seem (at least in the languages that I understand) to be somewhat less reliable than the rest of the corpus.
<http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentence...ser/boracasli>

Secondly I'd like to ask the community for their opinion as to the appropriate action, particularly in this case but also in general. Should we consider setting up blocks to get users to pay attention to accepted best common practices. In cases where users seem more interested in adding sentences than ensuring their accuracy, orphaning suspect sentences en masse might do the trick.

[1] <http://tatoeba.org/eng/user/profile/boracasli>

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TRANG TRANG August 26, 2010 at 11:53 PM August 26, 2010 at 11:53 PM link Permalink

I can't think of a good reason to block a user unless they are clearly spamming. The problem with boracasli is that he (or she, but let's assume he's a 'he') doesn't seem to understand properly English (despite what his profile says), or he has deep communication issues, or both.

We would need someone who speaks Turkish to communicate with him and educate him about Tatoeba. It would seem a bit too harsh to completely block him from contributing, because I don't think his intentions are bad. If you're assuming that he really is 12 and he doesn't really understand English, then his behavior makes much more sense...

Anyone interested in learning Turkish? :D

Regarding the problem of him not correcting his mistakes, I think he simply doesn't understand that people are asking him to correct. Because he sometimes corrects them, such as here:
- http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentence...81060#comments
- http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentence...78338#comments
It seems that if you post anything more complicated than that, he will not understand what you want from him (except perhaps when you're pointing out that his sentence has a wrong language).

So let's first try to post only clear simple comments, like "text_with_mistake -> text_corrected", then see how it goes...

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Demetrius Demetrius August 27, 2010 at 12:28 AM August 27, 2010 at 12:28 AM link Permalink

> Anyone interested in learning Turkish? :D
By the way, most of the new sentence he has added are very simple and easy to understand, so they're good for people beginning to study Turkish. ;)

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 27, 2010 at 12:37 AM August 27, 2010 at 12:37 AM link Permalink

As one of the two active Turkic language contributors apart from boracasli, I nominate Demetrius for this job.

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Demetrius Demetrius August 27, 2010 at 12:46 AM August 27, 2010 at 12:46 AM link Permalink

I don't agree with this nomination. Turkish is a language spoken in Germany. Since I'm learning German, I will do without Turkish. ;) Plus, I don't like purism, and Turkish people are known for their purism.

I think a person who knows other Turkic language well should start learning Turkish, because it's much easier to pick up a second language when you know a related one. ;)

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 27, 2010 at 12:51 AM August 27, 2010 at 12:51 AM link Permalink

PM him (her?) in Tatar and see what happens...

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Demetrius Demetrius August 27, 2010 at 1:18 AM August 27, 2010 at 1:18 AM link Permalink

Min tatarça BIK naçar belim. My Tatar is not good enough for this. (That's why there are so many Tatar sentences about apples ;)

BTW, you can PM him/her in latinized Uyghur. ;)

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 27, 2010 at 1:22 AM August 27, 2010 at 1:22 AM link Permalink

You know I *hate* Latinized Uighur...

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Demetrius Demetrius August 27, 2010 at 1:26 AM August 27, 2010 at 1:26 AM link Permalink

But it's much easier to copy-paste than Arabic script. :)

BTW, have you seen my comment about qazanda/qazangha?

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 27, 2010 at 1:28 AM August 27, 2010 at 1:28 AM link Permalink

In any case, Uighur and Turkish are only about 50% similar... That could lead to some interesting communication. Maybe later.

Yes, I saw the comment and replied (right?)

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Demetrius Demetrius August 27, 2010 at 1:33 AM August 27, 2010 at 1:33 AM link Permalink

You've replied about the Qazan that is a capital of Tatarstan, not about the qazan that is a pot.

http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/441304

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 27, 2010 at 1:21 AM August 27, 2010 at 1:21 AM link Permalink

Indeed, there are very many apple-related sentences...

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 27, 2010 at 12:55 AM August 27, 2010 at 12:55 AM link Permalink

I DO have a $1 "Elementary Turkish" book on my shelf... But no, seriously, there must be a better way of doing this.

Demetrius Demetrius August 26, 2010 at 11:37 PM August 26, 2010 at 11:37 PM link Permalink

IMHO, since it's clear that he is online, but unwilling to change or discuss his sentences, moderators should be given the right to correct them immediately, not waiting for 2 weeks.

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 27, 2010 at 12:26 AM August 27, 2010 at 12:26 AM link Permalink

Let's not be hasty here... "Clear" and "online" are two words that should rarely be used together in the same sentence.

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 26, 2010 at 8:23 PM August 26, 2010 at 8:23 PM link Permalink

I like your use of footnotes ;-)...

Personally, I think a mass-tagging, as blay_paul has suggested in another case, would be sufficient. Just @check them and leave it at that. Unfortunately, there aren't any active Turkish contributors on currently to validate his Turkish sentences (though they're *probably* okay). I say @check the ones that people have voiced concern over (notably the English ones, as I understand).

On a side note, I wonder if he's really 12...

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blay_paul blay_paul August 26, 2010 at 8:54 PM August 26, 2010 at 8:54 PM link Permalink

> I say @check the ones that people have voiced concern
> over (notably the English ones, as I understand).

And Japanese.

minshirui minshirui August 26, 2010 at 8:23 PM August 26, 2010 at 8:23 PM link Permalink

I've looked through most of his/her contributions in English, Hindi, Urdu, Mandarin and Cantonese to check for accuracy and have put comments in those sentences that didn't seem right to me. Thankfully, the number of non-Turkish sentences he has submitted is still very low. If he/she has been truthful about Turkish being a native language, we hopefully at least don't have all those Turkish sentences to worry about. However, many of the others need to be corrected or deleted.

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Pharamp Pharamp August 26, 2010 at 8:36 PM August 26, 2010 at 8:36 PM link Permalink

Thank you a lot minshirui :)

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 26, 2010 at 8:39 PM August 26, 2010 at 8:39 PM link Permalink

I took a look at the Russian/French. Most of them look okay to me.

boracasli boracasli August 26, 2010 at 11:27 PM August 26, 2010 at 11:27 PM link Permalink

When Lithuanian, Thai, Bosnian, Croatian, Quechua and Azeri will be added?

boracasli boracasli August 26, 2010 at 8:41 PM August 26, 2010 at 8:41 PM link Permalink

http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/481792
please tag as "Azerbaijani"

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 25, 2010 at 6:19 PM August 25, 2010 at 6:19 PM link Permalink

Mass-tagging:

Is it possible? Can mods do it?

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blay_paul blay_paul August 26, 2010 at 7:21 PM August 26, 2010 at 7:21 PM link Permalink

Mass tagging - can we tag all boracasli's submissions as @check ? -_-v

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 26, 2010 at 7:27 PM August 26, 2010 at 7:27 PM link Permalink

blay_paul brings down the iron fist...

Demetrius Demetrius August 25, 2010 at 11:20 PM August 25, 2010 at 11:20 PM link Permalink

I think a mss tagging ‘tag all sentences linked to this’ would be useful. I.e. if you see it's a ‘fact’, most linked sentences would usually be facts too.

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Swift Swift August 26, 2010 at 1:22 PM August 26, 2010 at 1:22 PM link Permalink

The same goes for quotes by people and from works ... though we should probably have an "original" tag as well to identify the source sentence(s).

sysko sysko August 25, 2010 at 6:20 PM August 25, 2010 at 6:20 PM link Permalink

I can do it, mods can't, if you tell what you want to do, I can see if it's possible or not:)
by the way there's now autocompletion on tag :)

sysko sysko August 25, 2010 at 6:21 PM August 25, 2010 at 6:21 PM link Permalink

By the way I need to make a mass tagging for CK already.

sacredceltic sacredceltic August 26, 2010 at 4:12 PM August 26, 2010 at 4:12 PM link Permalink

Mods can, but Rockers can't!

boracasli boracasli August 26, 2010 at 7:05 PM August 26, 2010 at 7:05 PM link Permalink

What language icons do you have, Trang Ho?

boracasli boracasli August 26, 2010 at 7:04 PM August 26, 2010 at 7:04 PM link Permalink

http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/477178
please tag as Thai

trotter trotter August 26, 2010 at 12:59 AM August 26, 2010 at 12:59 AM link Permalink

Punaise, ça faisait un moment que j'étais pas passé, qu'est-ce que ça bouge maintenant sur Tatoeba, le site tourne à plein régime, vraiment content pour vous :D
Félicitations.

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TRANG TRANG August 26, 2010 at 6:56 PM August 26, 2010 at 6:56 PM link Permalink

Et oui, c'est pas trop tôt hein, ça fait 4 ans que j'attends ça :D

Merci en tous cas ^_^

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 26, 2010 at 5:39 PM August 26, 2010 at 5:39 PM link Permalink

Degree of Grammatical Liberty in Translations:

This is probably a difficult point to set rules on, but it should be discussed. We know we shouldn't translate word-for-word, and that we should take liberties to make sure that the translation carries the same meaning and sounds natural in the language it is translated to. But... how liberal is too liberal?

As a good example, I can think of this:

"This book is good." (A) and "This is a good book." (B)

When people translate on the fly (as probably many do), these two can get mixed up. French would also have these two analogous variants, for example:

"C'est un bon livre." (A) vs. "Ce livre est bon." (B)

I imagine that it is not at all impossible to interlink all four, as they have virtually the same meaning, and the only thing that differs is the grammatical structure (one states the existence of a good book while the other states the existence of the good quality to the given book).

You also run into issues when you deal with languages that are less similar. Chinese (I think, though I could be wrong), takes B much more often than A. In that case, do we simply use B and link it to the A and B's of the French and English? Or do we try to preserve both structural variants and label one of them "rare"?

So again, how liberal is too liberal, and where's the happy balance between meaning and structure?

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Swift Swift August 26, 2010 at 6:39 PM August 26, 2010 at 6:39 PM link Permalink

I'd say that it's impossible to set rules on something like this. But discussion is always good and can help make us better aware of the issues.

I recently asked Sysko about nuanced relationships between sentences of the same language and there are apparently ideas on the drawing board about "qualified" links between sentences that could help with this. It would be great to be able to note links that were grammatical translations, those that emphasised how natural the sentence was in that situation, and possibly being able to annotate the links to give context.

On the topic of "naturalness", this is near impossible to achieve and may be better to leave out -- perhaps leave it to annotations. The problem is that to judge that properly, one needs to be sufficiently proficient, not only in the grammar of each of the languages one's translating from and to, but also in the cultures in which the sentences are used. This is made still more complicated by the fact that we're fundamentally bad at knowing how much we don't know.

I reckon we should leave translations open to both grammatical and situational sentences and emphasise annotating these in comments. If sentences are slightly akward, use of vocabulary is specific to certain situations, etc. leave a note in the comments.

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blay_paul blay_paul August 26, 2010 at 7:17 PM August 26, 2010 at 7:17 PM link Permalink

> The problem is that to judge that properly, one needs
> to be sufficiently proficient, not only in the grammar
> of each of the languages one's translating from and
> to, but also in the cultures in which the sentences
> are used.

Yes, exactly. And nothing less will do! (OK, maybe channelling sacredceltic a little there)

> This is made still more complicated by the fact that
> we're fundamentally bad at knowing how much we don't know.

Lemon juice bandit!

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 26, 2010 at 11:23 PM August 26, 2010 at 11:23 PM link Permalink

By the way, blay_paul, I see quite a lot of inconsistency in your policy: You recommend that only natives should translate sentences, - and somehow put me under accusation for reasons I still ignore - but you own 428 Japanese sentences. Are you ALSO a native Japanese by any chance?
Of how many languages are you a NATIVE, exactly?

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blay_paul blay_paul August 27, 2010 at 3:00 AM August 27, 2010 at 3:00 AM link Permalink

> You recommend that only natives should translate
> sentences.

No I don't.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 27, 2010 at 7:56 AM August 27, 2010 at 7:56 AM link Permalink

So how exactly do you know - better than the others, and symptomatically ME - what you don't know?
Do you have a particular instrument to measure your own ineptitude?

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blay_paul blay_paul August 27, 2010 at 8:31 AM August 27, 2010 at 8:31 AM link Permalink

> So how exactly do you know - better than the
> others, and symptomatically ME - what you don't
> know?

Care to rephrase that as a question?

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 27, 2010 at 8:36 AM August 27, 2010 at 8:36 AM link Permalink

So how exactly do you know what you don't know? (better than the others, and symptomatically ME)

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blay_paul blay_paul August 27, 2010 at 9:15 AM August 27, 2010 at 9:15 AM link Permalink

Well, if you insist on phrasing it like that, I don't know what I don't know. That does not preclude me from knowing what others do not know.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 27, 2010 at 9:20 AM August 27, 2010 at 9:20 AM link Permalink

Really? No more than I do myself, then?

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blay_paul blay_paul August 27, 2010 at 9:22 AM August 27, 2010 at 9:22 AM link Permalink

You also don't know things that you don't know, and know things that others do not know.

Seeing as that applies to every single human being on the planet I do not think it is a very meaningful issue to address.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 27, 2010 at 9:31 AM August 27, 2010 at 9:31 AM link Permalink

Indeed! I share this view.
So, since according to you, and I agree, this feature of our mind is shared by all humanhood, and that this is subsequently meaningless to address, how come you felt the urge to name my name, among all the others?

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blay_paul blay_paul August 27, 2010 at 9:43 AM August 27, 2010 at 9:43 AM link Permalink

I do not see any connection between an implication of a tendency to emphatic expressions and the fact that people don't know what they don't know and yet also know what others don't know.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 27, 2010 at 9:46 AM August 27, 2010 at 9:46 AM link Permalink

And what has your tendency to emphatic expressions anything to do with me? I still don't get this...

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blay_paul blay_paul August 27, 2010 at 9:49 AM August 27, 2010 at 9:49 AM link Permalink

I implied that you have a tendency to use emphatic expressions.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 27, 2010 at 9:58 AM August 27, 2010 at 9:58 AM link Permalink

Independently of the fact that this judgement of yours should not appear on this wall and constitutes a clear case of an ad hominem attack, could you please provide links to my "emphatic expressions", to ground your accusation, please?

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blay_paul blay_paul August 27, 2010 at 10:11 AM August 27, 2010 at 10:11 AM link Permalink

> Are you ALSO a native Japanese by any chance?
> Of how many languages are you a NATIVE, exactly?
> So how exactly do you know - better than the others, and symptomatically ME - what you don't know?

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sysko sysko August 27, 2010 at 10:20 AM August 27, 2010 at 10:20 AM link Permalink

Can you please both continue this discussion on private messages, or whatever non-public media. I don't think this kind of discussion have a reason to be on this wall. Thanks

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 27, 2010 at 10:25 AM August 27, 2010 at 10:25 AM link Permalink

I deeply agree, and I wonder why it was started in the first place anyway. I am still PUZZLED that my name surfaced in this thread where it had no purpose.
I'm still struggling to understand it...

sacredceltic sacredceltic August 27, 2010 at 10:20 AM August 27, 2010 at 10:20 AM link Permalink

so this is supposed to illustrate my emphasis? How extravagant! Especially since these examples are taken from sentences I wrote AFTER your accusation...
Do you experience difficulties ordering the sequence of facts?
Nevertheless, I don't see how these sentences are more "emphatic" than anything else. They're just to the point and articulate. They attempt at clarity, since it seems many people here seem to at sea, when someone writes without these annoying emoticons. Insisting on a particular element of a phrase through capitalisation is perfectly appropriate.

sacredceltic sacredceltic August 27, 2010 at 10:21 AM August 27, 2010 at 10:21 AM link Permalink

* since it seems many people here are at sea

sacredceltic sacredceltic August 26, 2010 at 8:03 PM August 26, 2010 at 8:03 PM link Permalink

>OK, maybe channelling sacredceltic a little there

Pardon?

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 26, 2010 at 8:43 PM August 26, 2010 at 8:43 PM link Permalink

I beg your pardon again. I seem to have been mentioned in your debate. Can you please elaborate?

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Swift Swift August 26, 2010 at 8:58 PM August 26, 2010 at 8:58 PM link Permalink

Don't fan the flames, Sacredceltic. If you really want to hash this out with Paul, send him a message. The community doesn't need this, I suspect the majority doesn't want it and it certainly doesn't help.

As a personal advice, I'd suggest you stop being so easily baited. You'd make a poor fish...

Oh, and to be fair: @Paul. Yes, that was unnecessary.

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blay_paul blay_paul August 26, 2010 at 9:19 PM August 26, 2010 at 9:19 PM link Permalink

@swift

Congratulations on pouring petrol on the ember.

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 26, 2010 at 9:34 PM August 26, 2010 at 9:34 PM link Permalink

Here we go again... Never a dull moment chez Tatoeba.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 26, 2010 at 9:51 PM August 26, 2010 at 9:51 PM link Permalink

Is the schoolyard full or are we expecting more kids to play here? Obama awaits me, so let's finish this game quickly, please.

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 26, 2010 at 9:53 PM August 26, 2010 at 9:53 PM link Permalink

Go and have your meeting with Obama. Wouldn't want you running late...

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 26, 2010 at 9:58 PM August 26, 2010 at 9:58 PM link Permalink

So now your 2 accomplices are mute, and you're always at the center of every one of these games, will you explain to me what this is about and how come I was involved in this, here on the public wall of Tatoeba?

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 26, 2010 at 10:06 PM August 26, 2010 at 10:06 PM link Permalink

I believe they were poking fun at your tendency to make a big deal out of things. Personally, I find your dedication admirable, but certainly can empathize with their viewpoint :-)

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 26, 2010 at 10:26 PM August 26, 2010 at 10:26 PM link Permalink

And since when Tatoeba's public wall - fully indexed by search engines - has become a space to vilify specific members of its community?
This practice has a name, it is "public lynching".
Do you clearly realise what you and your friends are doing?

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 26, 2010 at 10:29 PM August 26, 2010 at 10:29 PM link Permalink

I believe that the joke was in good humor ;-)

And you are now, unfortunately, proving them right.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 26, 2010 at 10:45 PM August 26, 2010 at 10:45 PM link Permalink

"Good humour"?
What exactly am I proving? That I don't accept being named in public spaces where I have nothing to do? Or slandered in the same public spaces?
Yes, I do very much prove that.
This matter is very straightforward: The wall is a publicly indexed space where only topics related to the functioning of this service and associated community should appear, to the exclusion of the slandering of its members.
Subsequently, I demand unequivocal public apologies and I request sanctions against the members who have used this space to gratuitously slander me, so they will become unable to do it again in the future.
Does that prove you right, now?

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 26, 2010 at 10:49 PM August 26, 2010 at 10:49 PM link Permalink

I'm insulted that you'd use this wall-of-righteous-logic approach with me, and expect me to take it seriously. We've known each other for ages now... Come on. Seriously. Anyway, good night to you, sir. The day ends in Europe.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 26, 2010 at 10:57 PM August 26, 2010 at 10:57 PM link Permalink

If we don't solve the problem here, we'll have to determine which court will have authority. Maybe in Xinjiang, what do you think? I bet Chinese courts are very lenient on slander...

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 26, 2010 at 11:02 PM August 26, 2010 at 11:02 PM link Permalink

That's a bit far away, as much as I'd love to go back.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 26, 2010 at 11:03 PM August 26, 2010 at 11:03 PM link Permalink

Anyway, I prefer London, that's where the damages are the highest, along with the lawyers' fees...

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 26, 2010 at 11:05 PM August 26, 2010 at 11:05 PM link Permalink

Call blay_paul and ask him to arrange housing, transportation, etc.

Swift Swift August 26, 2010 at 9:33 PM August 26, 2010 at 9:33 PM link Permalink

Sorry, I thought there was water in that bucket...

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 26, 2010 at 9:34 PM August 26, 2010 at 9:34 PM link Permalink

I think you must have been drinking other spirits along with your water, tonight...
I'll put it on that for now.

sacredceltic sacredceltic August 26, 2010 at 9:12 PM August 26, 2010 at 9:12 PM link Permalink

"Fan the flames" ?!? I wasn't even participating in this debate and suddenly my pseudo pops up ON THE WALL without a reason and I am the one to "fan the flames" and requested to send messages when you call me a "poor fish" on this very wall ?!
And who are you anyway to speak in the name of "The community"?
Did you just a make a poll to authorise you to insult me in public?
I haven't received the form, although I am also part of this community, whether you like it or not...

blay_paul blay_paul August 26, 2010 at 8:55 PM August 26, 2010 at 8:55 PM link Permalink

I was just implying that I had used a particularly emphatic phrasing in stating my opinion on that subject.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 26, 2010 at 8:57 PM August 26, 2010 at 8:57 PM link Permalink

I still don't get why my pseudo would be mentioned in there...

Swift Swift August 26, 2010 at 7:38 PM August 26, 2010 at 7:38 PM link Permalink

>> The problem is that to judge that properly, one needs
>> to be sufficiently proficient, not only in the grammar
>> of each of the languages one's translating from and
>> to, but also in the cultures in which the sentences
>> are used.
>
> Yes, exactly. And nothing less will do! (OK, maybe channelling sacredceltic a little there)

Well, I guess nothing less can do, seeing how anything less than "sufficient" would be insufficient. I apologise for the tautology! :-S

I hope Tatoebans will appreciate the intent despite the poor delivery (sort of like translating the meaning rather than the words...).

>> This is made still more complicated by the fact that
>> we're fundamentally bad at knowing how much we don't know.
>
> Lemon juice bandit!

:-)

For other fans of epistemological psychology:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytime...ics-dilemma-1/

blay_paul blay_paul August 26, 2010 at 6:28 PM August 26, 2010 at 6:28 PM link Permalink

One of my favourite books - on the subject of translation - says basically that the first thing a true translator has to do is forget the words of the text they are translating. What is all important is that the translation is what would be written (said) in the context of the original version.

To give one example from the book "Reserved only". In the context of a sign on the Japanese train 'nozomi' the translation would be 全車指定席 - literally meaning "all carriages (have) only reserved seating".

So, in conclusion, I would say that no liberal is too liberal providing the context is known, specified or imaginable and providing the translation is appropriate for that context.