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nickyeow nickyeow May 3, 2010 at 11:27 AM May 3, 2010 at 11:27 AM link permalink

I'm planning to add some Cantonese sentences. This might be a stupid question, but should I include the jyutping in the sentences?

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Demetrius Demetrius May 3, 2010 at 11:50 AM May 3, 2010 at 11:50 AM link permalink

As far as I can see, currently transcription isn't generated for Cantonese (eg. sent. No. 382502). But it's generated for Mandarin and Shanghainese, so I believe it'll be implemented in the future.

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sysko sysko May 3, 2010 at 2:55 PM May 3, 2010 at 2:55 PM link permalink

Yep you're right Demetrius, it will be added soon, adso as a beta support for jiutping, but if you know a good free software for Cantonese romanization, tell us :)

@nickyeow thanks to contribute (also) in Cantonese :)

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Demetrius Demetrius May 3, 2010 at 3:53 PM May 3, 2010 at 3:53 PM link permalink

I don't know any of these, unfortunately.

The only Cantonese wordlist with transcriptions I’ve seen is here: http://e-guidedog.sourceforge.net/cantonese.php , but it is inaccurate according to its creators.

Demetrius Demetrius May 3, 2010 at 11:45 AM May 3, 2010 at 11:45 AM link permalink

No, you shouldn’t. All transcription is generated automatically. Maybe it isn't generated for Cantonese (I don't know), but it should be generated in future.
But if you're inclined to, you can add transcription in comments. :)

It's good we'll have Cantonese sentences! :)

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cburgmer cburgmer May 3, 2010 at 11:50 AM May 3, 2010 at 11:50 AM link permalink

Btw, is Jyutping really employed more often than Yale? In all books I read and the course I attended Cantonese Yale was used.

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nickyeow nickyeow May 3, 2010 at 12:26 PM May 3, 2010 at 12:26 PM link permalink

In Hong Kong we usually use Jyutping, but you can also see Yale employed in some dictionaries.

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cburgmer cburgmer May 3, 2010 at 8:07 PM May 3, 2010 at 8:07 PM link permalink

At HKUST they teach Yale :)

nickyeow nickyeow May 3, 2010 at 12:27 PM May 3, 2010 at 12:27 PM link permalink

Thanks for your answer! :)

blay_paul blay_paul May 2, 2010 at 11:08 AM May 2, 2010 at 11:08 AM link permalink

Member status

I think it would be a good idea to be able to tell who has 'trusted user' status and who has 'admin access'. I suggest:

* Icon next to name in comments posted and next to posts on the wall.
* Full title given in the user's profile "%s is a Trusted-User" or something. Could make Trusted-User link to an explanation of what that means and how you get it.

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TRANG TRANG May 2, 2010 at 2:03 PM May 2, 2010 at 2:03 PM link permalink

There is a way to tell, but it's not obvious. From the "Members" section, if you re-organize by status, you can easily see who are the current trusted users:
http://tatoeba.org/eng/users/al.../direction:asc

But I agree it would be nice to be able to tell, right from the comments, what is the status of a user.

blay_paul blay_paul April 30, 2010 at 9:42 PM April 30, 2010 at 9:42 PM link permalink

I've read the latest Tatoeba Blog, but I'm going to comment here because I think more people read it. :-)

*******
I'm not 100% convinced by the 'adoption' approach, but I think it could work with a few adjustments. Here's one idea:

I think people (not the owners) should be able to issue an official 'call for action'. That call would only be able to be closed by the person who made it, or by a 'super user' (e.g. Trang, Sysko, etc.)

How it could work:

* User sees a sentence that is linked to a sentence that it is not a good translation of. User cannot unlink it because both sentences are owned.

* User posts a comment with the 'Call for action' checkbox ticked. "Please unlink this sentence from sentence 123XXX00 as it is not a good translation."

* Owner of sentence is notified. Owner of sentence has a link to a list of all currently open 'calls for action' on his sentences. The super users (Trang, Sysko) also have a similar link that works for all users.

* If, after one week, the call for action is _not_ closed the the ownership of the sentence is revoked and the person who posted the request is notified.

* The person who posted the request can close it at any time, when he is satisfied with the explanation given by the owner or action taken.

* Super-users (Trang, Sysko, etc.) can deal with the request themselves, and can also close the action item even if the person who made it is not satisfied (person making request might not come back to Tatoeba, it might have been a trivial or frivolous request).

This would give a formal and more easily trackable way of handling corrections needed to owned sentences, given that the owner may be away or may otherwise lose track of the comments made on his sentences.

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TRANG TRANG May 1, 2010 at 1:09 AM May 1, 2010 at 1:09 AM link permalink

> I've read the latest Tatoeba Blog, but I'm going to comment here because I think more people read it.

Actually I haven't posted about it here yet because it wasn't really official yet ;) I was still discussing it with sysko, and actually reviewed certain things, but the overall idea remains the same.

For now, we are focusing correcting sentences themselves, not the way they are linked. Because there are many sentences in French that could be corrected, and quickly, if only we took the time to check them in an organized way.

The whole linkage problem is of course something we will have to deal with, but it is actually in what would be the "phase 2". Not something we will work on yet... If we can already provide a "sentences.csv" that is not filled with spelling/grammar mistakes, it will be a good step forward.

blay_paul blay_paul April 30, 2010 at 7:22 PM April 30, 2010 at 7:22 PM link permalink

When will the Tatoeba interface next be updated from the Launchpad translation data? I've noticed that some of the more obvious mistakes are still around although I corrected them in Launchpad some time ago.

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TRANG TRANG April 30, 2010 at 9:22 PM April 30, 2010 at 9:22 PM link permalink

Next time should be tomorrow, when we update Tatoeba for bug fixes and small changes.

But generally speaking, the interface translations can be updated any time... Since it's not entirely automated, it's not regular... You have to remind me to do it ^^'

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blay_paul blay_paul May 1, 2010 at 7:26 PM May 1, 2010 at 7:26 PM link permalink

I see the interface update has gone through. I think it looks a lot better now.

blay_paul blay_paul April 30, 2010 at 8:49 PM April 30, 2010 at 8:49 PM link permalink

Notes on Tatoeba interface translation.

* Launchpad is no longer showing the full path to the source code. It doesn't include the website any more.

* Translation item 15

\controllers\user_controller.php:258

The original English is incorrect. It should be "Error" not "Erreur"

* Translation item 505

The original English has some minor errors.

"We really want to thanks" -> "We really want to thank"

"us a much more complete data files" -> "us much more complete data files"

"wouldn't have a so much complete IPA" -> "wouldn't have an IPA so complete."

Also, possibly "IPA table" rather than just IPA? (Not sure)

CK CK April 29, 2010 at 11:09 AM, edited October 25, 2019 at 8:07 AM April 29, 2010 at 11:09 AM, edited October 25, 2019 at 8:07 AM link permalink

[not needed anymore- removed by CK]

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TRANG TRANG April 29, 2010 at 11:48 PM April 29, 2010 at 11:48 PM link permalink

So, this is the link that get passed on from good contributor to good contributor:
http://blog.tatoeba.org/2010/02...n-tatoeba.html
I really need to put it somewhere so that more people will be enclined to read it. Anyway, as Paul explained, you should not change a sentence if it is valid.

But you have to know that only 'trusted users' can link/link sentences at the moment. The 'sentence_annotations' page as well can only be accessed by trusted users. This is because these features require a deeper understanding of Tatoeba and are not dummy-safe.

If you are interested in becoming a trusted user, you can just ask me :)

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saeb saeb April 30, 2010 at 12:19 AM April 30, 2010 at 12:19 AM link permalink

this is the link that get passed on from a crazy cult member to another:
[tatoeba's bible]
I really need to put it as the site's background image.
But you have to know that only 'elite cult members' can perform rituals at the moment.
If you are interested in becoming one, just ask to be initiated :P
-------------------------------------------
btw, are slangy sentences allowed on tatoeba...u know gaming slang, 1337 speak, gang slang...
PS watch out for the lame battle b/w arabic n portuguese :P

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL April 30, 2010 at 1:20 PM April 30, 2010 at 1:20 PM link permalink

which battle 0:-)?

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Demetrius Demetrius April 30, 2010 at 2:33 PM April 30, 2010 at 2:33 PM link permalink

Who gets more sentences. :)

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL April 30, 2010 at 4:06 PM April 30, 2010 at 4:06 PM link permalink

Oh, Demetrius, I didn't know that you battle saeb ;).

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saeb saeb April 30, 2010 at 5:19 PM April 30, 2010 at 5:19 PM link permalink

oh, MUIRIEL, let's pretend that you don't keep on adding portuguese until it's one more than arabic xD....I'm smelling a conspiracy...Let me guess, Trang is in on this too right? You guys are so on!

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brauliobezerra brauliobezerra May 1, 2010 at 1:52 PM May 1, 2010 at 1:52 PM link permalink

You're lucky I'm full of homework in these weeks :P

But I guess Portuguese and Arabic will both lose to Dorenda.

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Dorenda Dorenda May 1, 2010 at 2:30 PM May 1, 2010 at 2:30 PM link permalink

Well, I still have over 600 sentences to go before I catch up with Portuguese, and even more for Arabic, so if work hard, there still is a chance for you to stay ahead of Dutch. :P

MUIRIEL MUIRIEL May 1, 2010 at 4:13 PM May 1, 2010 at 4:13 PM link permalink

Why so paranoiac, saeb ;)?

Great work, brauliobezerra =)!

Demetrius Demetrius April 30, 2010 at 5:44 PM April 30, 2010 at 5:44 PM link permalink

I don’t battle anymody. :) I guess I have no chances to make Russian higher than Dutch until Dorenda’s around. :)

Demetrius Demetrius April 30, 2010 at 6:07 PM April 30, 2010 at 6:07 PM link permalink

Hmm... It seems I can declare war on Esperanto! :)))

TRANG TRANG May 1, 2010 at 11:33 PM May 1, 2010 at 11:33 PM link permalink

> btw, are slangy sentences allowed on tatoeba...u know gaming slang, 1337 speak, gang slang...

They are allowed, but if you do add these kind of sentences, it would be useful if you put them in a list. Also we prefer to avoid sentences that are "not safe for kids" until we have a way to tag them and filter them out (so that people who may use our content for educational purpose can only go for the more "decent" type of content).


> PS watch out for the lame battle b/w arabic n portuguese :P

You guys make me laugh (in a good way :P) It's actually entertaining to watch x)

PS: I had nothing to with it. Muiriel decided to pick on you on her own!

blay_paul blay_paul April 29, 2010 at 4:10 PM April 29, 2010 at 4:10 PM link permalink

*Corrected typo*

This is the official method, AFAIK.

1. Do not change either the Japanese or the English (provided that both Japanese and English are valid sentences).

2. Add a new sentence, as a translation, of either the Japanese or English.*

* For practical reasons it is best to add a new English translation of the Japanese as the Japanese needs index information adding. Also it is preferable to add sentences in your native, not second, language.

3. After adding the new translation, unlink the old translation. You can do this by 'owning' either the sentence being translated (Japanese) or the incorrect old translation (English), refreshing the page, and then clicking the appropriate 'scissor icon'.

4. The 'meaning' field of the Japanese index data will need to be changed to the ID of the new sentence. You can do that from this page
http://tatoeba.org/sentence_annotations/
although it may be easier just to leave a note / PM for me or Jim to do so.

blay_paul blay_paul April 29, 2010 at 8:17 PM April 29, 2010 at 8:17 PM link permalink

Linkage.

OK, I'm seeing a lot of cases where two sentences should be linked (or unlinked) but both are owned. Could we allow linking/unlinking between sentences even if we aren't the owners? It's slowing things down, especially as you can't count on people staying in Tatoeba.

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TRANG TRANG April 29, 2010 at 11:29 PM April 29, 2010 at 11:29 PM link permalink

Yes, but before I give more power to trusted users, I want to display the "latest links" somewhere (in the same way there's a page where you can see the latest sentences added/edited/deleted).

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saeb saeb April 30, 2010 at 12:24 AM April 30, 2010 at 12:24 AM link permalink

but isn't that too much power? technically trusted users can then 'disappear' a sentence, right?

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blay_paul blay_paul April 30, 2010 at 12:36 AM April 30, 2010 at 12:36 AM link permalink

They don't actually go anywhere, and can still be found by a whole bunch of methods.

Some sentences need to disappear, anyway ;-)

See
http://tatoeba.org/jpn/sentences/show/383895

It's linked to
http://tatoeba.org/jpn/sentences/show/336221
(which should be deleted)

It isn't directly linked to
http://tatoeba.org/jpn/sentences/show/383894
(but it should be)

At the moment I can't link it to the sentence it should be linked to, nor can I unlink it from the sentence it should be unlinked from.

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saeb saeb April 30, 2010 at 12:44 AM April 30, 2010 at 12:44 AM link permalink

I can see that you need it :), but generally speaking, if it gets implemented for trusted users...well it'll be possible for s.o. to unlink a sentence and cause it to be 'left behind' without the consent of it's owner...which is pretty close to deleting a sentence imo.

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blay_paul blay_paul April 30, 2010 at 12:51 AM April 30, 2010 at 12:51 AM link permalink

Well, dude*, we're either trusted or we're not.

* Hopefully correct.

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saeb saeb April 30, 2010 at 12:58 AM April 30, 2010 at 12:58 AM link permalink

yet there isn't any real criteria for getting trusted or not mate*.

* Hopefully correct.

CK CK April 22, 2010 at 10:39 PM, edited October 25, 2019 at 8:02 AM April 22, 2010 at 10:39 PM, edited October 25, 2019 at 8:02 AM link permalink

[not needed anymore- removed by CK]

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CK CK April 29, 2010 at 2:56 AM, edited October 25, 2019 at 8:02 AM April 29, 2010 at 2:56 AM, edited October 25, 2019 at 8:02 AM link permalink

[not needed anymore- removed by CK]

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blay_paul blay_paul April 29, 2010 at 3:27 AM April 29, 2010 at 3:27 AM link permalink

Actually both those cases, kimi and boku, are notorious for being very often used by the opposite gender to that expected by textbooks.

JimBreen JimBreen April 23, 2010 at 7:34 AM April 23, 2010 at 7:34 AM link permalink

Those [M] and [F] refer to the Japanese.

I added them years ago at someone's suggestion as it seemed like a good idea at the time 8-)}. Ideally they should be part of metadata associated with the Japanese. It wouldn't break my heart if they were removed from the English sentences entirely.

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CK CK April 23, 2010 at 10:05 AM, edited October 25, 2019 at 8:02 AM April 23, 2010 at 10:05 AM, edited October 25, 2019 at 8:02 AM link permalink

[not needed anymore- removed by CK]

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JimBreen JimBreen April 24, 2010 at 12:42 AM April 24, 2010 at 12:42 AM link permalink

I'd forgotten they were originally on the Japanese sentences. All the more reason to remove them from the English ones.

I think moving them back to the Japanese is more than a global replacement. I think it would be better to remove them totally.

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blay_paul blay_paul April 24, 2010 at 3:49 AM April 24, 2010 at 3:49 AM link permalink

> I think moving them back to the Japanese is more than
> a global replacement. I think it would be better to
> remove them totally.

I suggest holding your horses on the second part, at
least until Tatoeba has a meta data handling system up.

blay_paul blay_paul April 28, 2010 at 12:48 PM April 28, 2010 at 12:48 PM link permalink

JPN INDICES

I've sent* in a UTF-8 file (with BOM, unfortunately) containing the updated index and meaning field information I've been working on. Could Sysko or Trang update Tatoeba from it and post here when it's done?

* To the team@tatoeba.fr address.

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JimBreen JimBreen April 29, 2010 at 2:56 AM April 29, 2010 at 2:56 AM link permalink

Yes, I would like to know too. I have a change or two to get in before Saturday's dump.

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blay_paul blay_paul April 29, 2010 at 3:29 AM April 29, 2010 at 3:29 AM link permalink

I've just read an email from Trang saying it's done. Hope it all went well (fingers metaphorically crossed - would be really crossed but that makes typing difficult).

Swift Swift April 28, 2010 at 1:23 PM April 28, 2010 at 1:23 PM link permalink

The new Japanese readings include both the kanji and their reading below the sentence. Is this an interim solution or would people be willing to reconsider it?

My view is that it's a little redundant and it could be better to either leave the kanji out or add the kanji readings as furigana.

I wasn't able to set MeCab up on this machine but I assume it isn't too difficult to format the output to create ruby code.

Speaking of formatting the MeCab output, can one disable the "readings" on punctuation and long vowel marks (see e.g. Sentence nº126252 and nº75484) and parse numbers together (see e.g. Sentence nº115312)?

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CK CK April 29, 2010 at 2:38 AM, edited October 25, 2019 at 8:08 AM April 29, 2010 at 2:38 AM, edited October 25, 2019 at 8:08 AM link permalink

[not needed anymore- removed by CK]

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Swift Swift April 29, 2010 at 10:58 AM April 29, 2010 at 10:58 AM link permalink

There's no need to use the semantically incorrect tt tag. There is already ruby character markup available and stylesheets to render them properly in modern browsers that can't handle them by default. For general inline and block level styling there are the span and div tags.

You have a good point that the redundancy in the kanji is useful though maybe not terribly aesthetically pleasing. I suppose this may be the best solution until we have furigana implemented.

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CK CK April 29, 2010 at 11:24 AM, edited October 25, 2019 at 8:07 AM April 29, 2010 at 11:24 AM, edited October 25, 2019 at 8:07 AM link permalink

[not needed anymore- removed by CK]

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Swift Swift April 29, 2010 at 11:33 AM April 29, 2010 at 11:33 AM link permalink

I sort of figured that. What I wanted to point out wast that the semantically correct equivalent of your proposal would be to use a span inline element:

東京 <span class="reading">[とうきょう]</span>

with the style definition:

.reading { whatever-property:value; }

One could actually drop the brackets:

東京 <span class="reading">とうきょう</span>

and add them in CSS with something like:

.reading:before {content: "["}
.reading:after {content: "]"}

But we can just as well wait for furigana...

JimBreen JimBreen April 29, 2010 at 2:54 AM April 29, 2010 at 2:54 AM link permalink

I like the new way too (not that I read it often.) MUCH better than the old romanization.

TRANG TRANG April 28, 2010 at 6:46 PM April 28, 2010 at 6:46 PM link permalink

It's temporary. I'm aware that it is a bit redundant.

We actually have a tool that converts into furigana. It works at least on IE8, Firefox 3.5, Chome 4.1 and Opera 10:
http://tatoeba.org/eng/tools/ro...&type=furigana

So we can display furigana but this is not in our priorities at the moment, so you will probably have to wait a couple of months before we get it done.

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Swift Swift April 28, 2010 at 6:56 PM April 28, 2010 at 6:56 PM link permalink

Good to hear that it's only temporary. I was aware of the furigana tool. Thanks for your work on this issue.

Any idea how simple it is to fix the readings for the punctuations, long vowel marks and numbers?

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TRANG TRANG April 29, 2010 at 11:37 PM April 29, 2010 at 11:37 PM link permalink

For the punctuations, it should not be too difficult.

For the long vowel marks, if you are talking about the romaji, we used to convert it into a hyphen. So we will leave it like it is now.

For the numbers, it depends what kind of fix you want...

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Swift Swift April 30, 2010 at 1:15 AM April 30, 2010 at 1:15 AM link permalink

Punctuations: Great.

Long vowel marks: Sentence nº75484 shows what I mean. The long vowel mark is repeated in the "reading" like the punctuation: "ー" becomes "ー[ー]".

Numbers: It would be good if "10時" got the reading "じゅうじ" rather than "1[いち] 0[ぜろ] 時[じ]" (see e.g. sentence nº115312).

Similarly, 10日 should get "とおか" and 10分 should get "じっぷん" (or "じゅっぷん" though sometimes it's "じゅうぶん" ... *sigh*).

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JimBreen JimBreen April 30, 2010 at 9:06 AM April 30, 2010 at 9:06 AM link permalink

Re: Numbers: It would be good if "10時" got the reading "じゅうじ" rather than "1[いち] 0[ぜろ] 時[じ]" (see e.g. sentence nº115312).

The fix for that is to add to the IPADIC files used by MeCab. They look something like:
蹴込,1285,1285,5622,名詞,一般,*,*,*,*,蹴込,ケコミ,ケコミ
in their raw form. Adding 10時 ジュウジ is possible. It would be best to become familiar with the structure and weightings in those files before embarking on it.

blay_paul blay_paul April 28, 2010 at 3:30 PM April 28, 2010 at 3:30 PM link permalink

I'd like to see furigana. However, when I last checked a few years ago, support for the RUBY tag was rather limited and furigana displayed rather poorly in some browsers.

The 'kanji + readings' display doesn't really bother me, but then I rarely look at that line anyway.

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Swift Swift April 28, 2010 at 3:42 PM April 28, 2010 at 3:42 PM link permalink

Yes, it appears IE is the only browser with even limited ruby character support. The markup is, however, designed to fall back on something similar to what we currently have and the ruby characters can be implemented on modern browsers using CSS.

For more, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_character