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CK CK August 28, 2010, edited October 26, 2019 August 28, 2010 at 1:06:35 AM UTC, edited October 26, 2019 at 4:04:52 AM UTC link Permalink

[not needed anymore- removed by CK]

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Swift Swift August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 at 2:35:18 PM UTC link Permalink

Sounds like a very reasonable distinction to make.

I've added "British English spelling" and "Incorre... sorry: "American English spelling" to
http://martin.swift.is/tatoeba/...ml#orthography

Was going to search for some phrases to create these tags on and populate with, but the search engine seems to be down a the moment.

Pharamp Pharamp August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 at 11:17:58 AM UTC link Permalink

** Thoughts on Tags: Moderators should be helped with clear nice tags, don't they? **

Calling for destruction:
http://tatoeba.org/ita/tags/sho...ith_tag/delete
http://tatoeba.org/ita/tags/sho...th_tag/@delete
http://tatoeba.org/ita/tags/sho...not_a_sentence
http://tatoeba.org/ita/tags/sho...not_a_sentence
http://tatoeba.org/ita/tags/sho...g/non-sentence
http://tatoeba.org/ita/tags/sho...near-duplicate

Calling physically:
http://tatoeba.org/ita/tags/sho...tag/@moderator
http://tatoeba.org/ita/tags/sho...ag/@moderators

Calling a pen-mate:
http://tatoeba.org/ita/tags/sho...s_Native_Check
http://tatoeba.org/ita/tags/sho...s_Native_Check

Calling for correcting (what?)
http://tatoeba.org/ita/tags/sho...th_tag/@change
http://tatoeba.org/ita/tags/sho...ith_tag/@check
http://tatoeba.org/ita/tags/sho.../grammar_check
http://tatoeba.org/ita/tags/sho...h_tag/to_check
http://tatoeba.org/ita/tags/sho...to_be_reviewed
http://tatoeba.org/ita/tags/sho...g/non-standard
http://tatoeba.org/ita/tags/sho...g/@link-unlink

Calling for protection:
http://tatoeba.org/ita/tags/sho...pyright_issues
http://tatoeba.org/ita/tags/sho...ight_violation

Some nonsense:
http://tatoeba.org/ita/tags/sho...@check_tagging
http://tatoeba.org/ita/tags/sho...check/_tagging

And it's only what I found...

(All this for suggesting to make some policies on it ;P)

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Swift Swift August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 at 1:45:42 PM UTC link Permalink

Well, everyone should be helped with nice clean tags. :-)

Many of these can be merged while others are empty and unused and can be deleted.

* @delete should take on "delete" ("delete not a sentence" is empty and can be deleted).
* @moderators and @moderator should be merged (under which is a matter of taste but ultimately unimportant).
* @check could take on "Needs Native Check", "@Needs Native Check" and "to check". Possibly "to be reviewed", too.

See also:
http://martin.swift.is/tatoeba/tags.html#tatoeba

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blay_paul blay_paul August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 at 1:48:47 PM UTC link Permalink

> * @check could take on "Needs Native Check", "@Needs Native Check" and "to check".

Not sure I agree with that. The way I look at it, 'Native check' is for sentences that are suspected of sounding odd or being incorrect. 'Check' includes sentences that sound perfectly fine, but are not good translations. So a 'Native check' example doesn't need the checker to know any other languages.

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Swift Swift August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 at 2:14:47 PM UTC link Permalink

If you feel that there is a use in separating the two, then an "@translation check" tag might be useful to make its use clearer. The current @check tag is used as generally as the name implies (e.g. #400689 ). Neither it nor "to_check" have many or obscure languages, so this wouldn't be difficult to remedy.

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Pharamp Pharamp August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 at 3:35:04 PM UTC link Permalink

Well, I think I prefer to split things.

@check or @change don't mean anything.
Check what? Grammar? Flag? How a sentence sounds natural? If there is a capital letter?

So, I'd prefer to set "@" like "something is wrong", and then:

@grammar (grammar sounds wrong)
@flag (flag is to be changed)
@ponctuation (simple dots missing)
@translations (to verify translations / link-unlink)
@orthography (bad word spelling)

and so on...

We can establish @check as: "I should look on it further, or someone else should read this sentence too", when @Needs Native Check implies that a native person is needed (when who entered the sentence is not a native speaker of the sentence's language)

@moderator(s) is quite useless ^^'

Also, if I see an Arabic sentence with @ponctuation when all comments are in Arabic, I get immediately the problem, even if I don't speak Arabic. It happened many times to re-ask "what's wrong here?" or to ask Muiriel to translate me German comments while there was just a "s" missing.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 30, 2010 August 30, 2010 at 11:31:41 PM UTC link Permalink

OK. I'll go along with the proposed tag codification.
Good job, Pharamp!

Swift Swift August 31, 2010 August 31, 2010 at 12:18:59 AM UTC link Permalink

I'm not sure that a tag will be sufficient to indicate to moderators what needs to be done. Let's say a sentence is tagged with @puncutation and has multiple punctuation mistakes, then a moderator, not proficient in the language may well fix the ones he or she recognises and remove the tag. The same goes for grammar and spelling.

I think @change has a useful purpose in making sure that a problem that has been identified in the comments will eventually be dealt with. All that's needed is for either the owner or a moderator to fix it.

If people want to split @check, then I'm leaning towards the sentence/link split. My rationale is that no matter what is seen as wrong with the sentence, any proficient speaker of that language can deal with it -- and should be able to spot any problem that may exist (whether grammar, spelling or just odd phrasing).

A useful tag for link integrity is a bit tougher as it refers to two or more sentences, but currently we can't tag the links themselves. A simple, low-tech solution would be to have a single "@link check" tag that one could filter by ones strongest language(s) and browse for translations that one felt one could judge as good or bad.

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 at 2:07:08 PM UTC link Permalink

That being said, I think @Needs Native Check and Needs Native Check should just be merged. But yes, I don't agree that they should be associated with @check.

@check seems to be very general and can even include things like wrong language flags and punctuation mistakes. Native check is more specific and thus more efficient. A native speaker simply looks at all the tagged sentences in his/her language and can immediately say whether it's fine or not (without having to worry about all the clutter from @check).

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Swift Swift August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 at 2:24:45 PM UTC link Permalink

Fair enough, but things like wrong flags and punctuations would be put under @change, no?

I haven't been browsing these tags so I'll defer to you gents for their most efficient usage. Are there still cases you can think of that don't fall under checking sentence accuracy or their links to translations?

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 at 2:34:30 PM UTC link Permalink

Yea, you're right. Those would be under @change.

blay_paul blay_paul August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 at 12:21:43 PM UTC link Permalink

Oops! Posted wrong link before.

Trying something new.

It occurred to me that having the numbered sentences and the comment system makes this a suitable place for playing around with "Choose Your Own Adventure" type stories.

See following page for details.

http://tatoeba.org/ita/sentences/show/483959

Post comments, questions and suggestions here or in the link above.

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sysko sysko August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 at 12:50:35 PM UTC link Permalink

Fuuuuuuuunnnnn !

sysko sysko August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 at 12:57:19 PM UTC link Permalink

this need people to translate also the comment when they translate:) , I really think this is a smart "hack" of tatoeba system

boracasli boracasli August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 7:55:54 PM UTC link Permalink

Please remove "@cburgmer, are you still learning Turkish?" from "What's New"

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 10:02:46 PM UTC link Permalink

Neden?

jefke jefke August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 12:22:45 PM UTC link Permalink

Parmi les langues mentionnées peut-on trouver le thibétain ?

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sysko sysko August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 12:24:30 PM UTC link Permalink

non nous n'avons pas encore eu de contributeurs dans cette langue. Mais nous serions heureux si tu connaissais un tel contributeur :)

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 2:28:34 PM UTC link Permalink

Just don't tell Big Brother, sysko...

blay_paul blay_paul August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 12:19:33 PM UTC link Permalink

Where's the link to the "lists" page gone?

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blay_paul blay_paul August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 12:20:38 PM UTC link Permalink

I see the page is still there, but there's no link on the top of the page anymore.
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences_lists/index

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sysko sysko August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 12:23:33 PM UTC link Permalink

Normaly it's in the dropdown menu browe -> browse by list ?

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blay_paul blay_paul August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 12:58:22 PM UTC link Permalink

Ah! Didn't spot that - I don't think I've ever used the
browse link since you redesigned the interface. :-P

sacredceltic sacredceltic August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 11:46:29 AM UTC link Permalink

Quelles possibilités existent-elles de relier 2 traductions quand on est propriétaire d'aucune des 2 ?
En effet, si A connait la langue 1 mais pas la 2, que B connait la 2 mais pas la 1, comment C, s'il connait les langues 1 et 2 peut-il indiquer qu'une phrase de A correspond à une autre de B ?

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sysko sysko August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 11:52:58 AM UTC link Permalink

les modos peuvents. Lorsque l'historique des ajouts / suppressions de liens seront facilement accessibles, on passera la fonctionnalité à tous les trusted users.

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sysko sysko August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 11:53:17 AM UTC link Permalink

*sera

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 12:21:27 PM UTC link Permalink

Actuellement, je dois adopter des phrases pour pouvoir les lier. C'est contraignant et pas tellement logique.
Je trouve que la possession du lien et la possession des phrases elles-même devraient constituer deux choses distinctes.
Je peux en effet faire un piètre rédacteur tout en étant à même de détecter une équivalence.

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 11:49:13 AM UTC link Permalink

Il existe une façon... (mais je me tais)

blay_paul blay_paul August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 9:23:11 AM UTC link Permalink

Thurday WWWJDIC example update summary.

42 records deleted.
7 new records added.

lehtolaj lehtolaj August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 3:41:00 AM UTC link Permalink

To the Staatlanders in Senegal. We wish to read the current Djembe nrewsletter.

Swift Swift August 26, 2010 August 26, 2010 at 8:05:36 PM UTC link Permalink

I really hate to do this, but I think we've come to the stage where some discussion and possibly action is needed.

User boracasli[1] has been very prolific in contributing to Tatoeba in the last few days and currently has some 1245 sentences assigned to him. His enthusiasm is notable and the number of sentences and languages in which he's contributed would be laudable if not for the persistent errors that I and other contributors have identified.

Making mistakes is one thing, but these are persistent and should have been a hint to boracasli that his level of English is hardly "nearly expert" as he indicates on his profile page.

Worse still is the fact that this user has not fixed many of the errors that have been pointed out or responded to comments and messages (I'm assuming I'm not the only one who's tried to contact him privately).

I'd firstly like to request the attention of the community to look through boracasli's contributions as these seem (at least in the languages that I understand) to be somewhat less reliable than the rest of the corpus.
<http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentence...ser/boracasli>

Secondly I'd like to ask the community for their opinion as to the appropriate action, particularly in this case but also in general. Should we consider setting up blocks to get users to pay attention to accepted best common practices. In cases where users seem more interested in adding sentences than ensuring their accuracy, orphaning suspect sentences en masse might do the trick.

[1] <http://tatoeba.org/eng/user/profile/boracasli>

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TRANG TRANG August 26, 2010 August 26, 2010 at 11:53:50 PM UTC link Permalink

I can't think of a good reason to block a user unless they are clearly spamming. The problem with boracasli is that he (or she, but let's assume he's a 'he') doesn't seem to understand properly English (despite what his profile says), or he has deep communication issues, or both.

We would need someone who speaks Turkish to communicate with him and educate him about Tatoeba. It would seem a bit too harsh to completely block him from contributing, because I don't think his intentions are bad. If you're assuming that he really is 12 and he doesn't really understand English, then his behavior makes much more sense...

Anyone interested in learning Turkish? :D

Regarding the problem of him not correcting his mistakes, I think he simply doesn't understand that people are asking him to correct. Because he sometimes corrects them, such as here:
- http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentence...81060#comments
- http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentence...78338#comments
It seems that if you post anything more complicated than that, he will not understand what you want from him (except perhaps when you're pointing out that his sentence has a wrong language).

So let's first try to post only clear simple comments, like "text_with_mistake -> text_corrected", then see how it goes...

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Demetrius Demetrius August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 12:28:34 AM UTC link Permalink

> Anyone interested in learning Turkish? :D
By the way, most of the new sentence he has added are very simple and easy to understand, so they're good for people beginning to study Turkish. ;)

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 12:37:05 AM UTC link Permalink

As one of the two active Turkic language contributors apart from boracasli, I nominate Demetrius for this job.

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Demetrius Demetrius August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 12:46:30 AM UTC link Permalink

I don't agree with this nomination. Turkish is a language spoken in Germany. Since I'm learning German, I will do without Turkish. ;) Plus, I don't like purism, and Turkish people are known for their purism.

I think a person who knows other Turkic language well should start learning Turkish, because it's much easier to pick up a second language when you know a related one. ;)

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 12:51:47 AM UTC link Permalink

PM him (her?) in Tatar and see what happens...

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Demetrius Demetrius August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 1:18:13 AM UTC link Permalink

Min tatarça BIK naçar belim. My Tatar is not good enough for this. (That's why there are so many Tatar sentences about apples ;)

BTW, you can PM him/her in latinized Uyghur. ;)

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 1:22:26 AM UTC link Permalink

You know I *hate* Latinized Uighur...

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Demetrius Demetrius August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 1:26:22 AM UTC link Permalink

But it's much easier to copy-paste than Arabic script. :)

BTW, have you seen my comment about qazanda/qazangha?

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 1:28:53 AM UTC link Permalink

In any case, Uighur and Turkish are only about 50% similar... That could lead to some interesting communication. Maybe later.

Yes, I saw the comment and replied (right?)

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Demetrius Demetrius August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 1:33:34 AM UTC link Permalink

You've replied about the Qazan that is a capital of Tatarstan, not about the qazan that is a pot.

http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/441304

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 1:21:07 AM UTC link Permalink

Indeed, there are very many apple-related sentences...

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 12:55:05 AM UTC link Permalink

I DO have a $1 "Elementary Turkish" book on my shelf... But no, seriously, there must be a better way of doing this.

Demetrius Demetrius August 26, 2010 August 26, 2010 at 11:37:35 PM UTC link Permalink

IMHO, since it's clear that he is online, but unwilling to change or discuss his sentences, moderators should be given the right to correct them immediately, not waiting for 2 weeks.

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 27, 2010 August 27, 2010 at 12:26:19 AM UTC link Permalink

Let's not be hasty here... "Clear" and "online" are two words that should rarely be used together in the same sentence.

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 26, 2010 August 26, 2010 at 8:23:09 PM UTC link Permalink

I like your use of footnotes ;-)...

Personally, I think a mass-tagging, as blay_paul has suggested in another case, would be sufficient. Just @check them and leave it at that. Unfortunately, there aren't any active Turkish contributors on currently to validate his Turkish sentences (though they're *probably* okay). I say @check the ones that people have voiced concern over (notably the English ones, as I understand).

On a side note, I wonder if he's really 12...

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blay_paul blay_paul August 26, 2010 August 26, 2010 at 8:54:17 PM UTC link Permalink

> I say @check the ones that people have voiced concern
> over (notably the English ones, as I understand).

And Japanese.

minshirui minshirui August 26, 2010 August 26, 2010 at 8:23:44 PM UTC link Permalink

I've looked through most of his/her contributions in English, Hindi, Urdu, Mandarin and Cantonese to check for accuracy and have put comments in those sentences that didn't seem right to me. Thankfully, the number of non-Turkish sentences he has submitted is still very low. If he/she has been truthful about Turkish being a native language, we hopefully at least don't have all those Turkish sentences to worry about. However, many of the others need to be corrected or deleted.

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Pharamp Pharamp August 26, 2010 August 26, 2010 at 8:36:48 PM UTC link Permalink

Thank you a lot minshirui :)

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 26, 2010 August 26, 2010 at 8:39:26 PM UTC link Permalink

I took a look at the Russian/French. Most of them look okay to me.