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Demetrius Demetrius August 24, 2010 August 24, 2010 at 9:59:06 AM UTC link Permalink

By the way, about the XXX tag...

How it should be used? Consider the following groups:
a) sentence describes a sexual intercourse in rude words,
b) sentence uses the rude words with an indirect meaning, to describe something other,
c) sentence describes a sexual intercourse with euphemisms
In which cases XXX tag should be used?

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blay_paul blay_paul August 24, 2010 August 24, 2010 at 10:31:38 AM UTC link Permalink

I would say a) and c) and possibly b) (but depending on circumstances).

We'll probably need to fine tune that sort of thing later. It's not really a priority at the moment as the tags don't actually do much yet.

Swift Swift August 24, 2010 August 24, 2010 at 12:46:16 PM UTC link Permalink

I don't think these should should be tagged under a single label. I think a) and b) could be tagged with something like "rude" or "obscene" and a) and c) with something like "sex" or "pornographic". c) should furthermore be tagged with "euphemism".

I this is actually a great time to think about how we're using and how we'd like to use the tags, seeing how it's not a priority and we can play around with them.

Demetrius Demetrius August 20, 2010 August 20, 2010 at 3:44:55 PM UTC link Permalink

Should we keep proverbs offending other nations in the database? And how should these be tagged?

We already have some Ukrainian proverbs about Russians in the database (sth like “You can ward off the devil crossing yourself, but you can’t ward off a Moskal”). ^^

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Swift Swift August 24, 2010 August 24, 2010 at 4:36:57 AM UTC link Permalink

You could tag them as "stereotype", "prejudice" or even "bigotry".

I'm all for freedom of expression, but I think that clear lines are more useful for a project such as this (oh, and trying to steer around hypocritical stances would be nice). Seeing how the aim of this project is to gather sentences and link them to translations -- not to disseminate facts -- and the web is open to anyone wanting to espouse their hate, I'm not overly concerned about losing offensive content.

I do, however, prefer the idea of simply filtering out the filth one doesn't like.

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blay_paul blay_paul August 24, 2010 August 24, 2010 at 9:44:16 AM UTC link Permalink

There are already quite a few labelled as 'Lie'. Filters would be nice (filtering out XXX sentences should be a priority if we want to be 'school friendly'), but I think that sort of content is still needed (in moderation) to give a full coverage of language usage.

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blay_paul blay_paul August 24, 2010 August 24, 2010 at 9:46:34 AM UTC link Permalink

> full coverage of language usage.

Talking about which, I'm reminded of a Japanese speaker who was certain that a certain body part was referred to as "pussy cat". Nothing I could say would persuade him that the 'cat' wasn't needed; he just said "I use it all the time with my girlfriend so it must be right."

blay_paul blay_paul August 23, 2010 August 23, 2010 at 9:48:37 PM UTC link Permalink

Feature request - download all in current web.

Suppose you have sentence A, B, C, D, E, and F like below:

....................
.A -+- B --- C ---E.
....|...............
....+- D --- F......
....................

Then I'd like to be able to download all of those sentences as a list regardless of what sentence I'm looking at at the moment.

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sysko sysko August 23, 2010 August 23, 2010 at 9:55:00 PM UTC link Permalink

maybe in a near future but not now looking to the way they're stored, and when it will be possible to do so, then you will be able to see A B C D E when looking to whichever sentence, it will not be restricted to indirect translation anymore.

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Swift Swift August 24, 2010 August 24, 2010 at 5:19:53 AM UTC link Permalink

When that time comes, it would be useful to be able to increase and decrease the depth from which sentences are shown. I've sometimes been translating a sentence and known that it is a translation of a third one, a couple of nodes away. Since it isn't shown, I've had to do a bit of gymnastics to link those. It would be great to be able to show progressively more distant sentences until one finds the one one's looking for.

Also, it would be great to be able to search for sentences in one particular language that are only indirectly translated into another particular language.

Shazzan Shazzan August 22, 2010 August 22, 2010 at 10:37:35 PM UTC link Permalink

Hi,I've just found Tatoeba and would like to contribute.

I could do it with the Esperanto version. I am a teacher of Esperanto at language schools and teached it for two years at the University of Santiago de Compostela as well.

Also I could help with the Galician version, if you want to make a separate section for Galician. Galician is a variety or Portuguese and there are two ways of writing it: with Spanish ortography and with Portuguese ortography (commonly with the other main varieties of Portuguese: Brazilian and Portuguese from Portugal). I have a degree in Galician Philology and teaches Galician for the Autonomous Government of Galicia and at language schools.
I'm a translator and interpreter, too. I work with both varieties of Galician, Spanish, standard Portuguese of Portugal, Romanian and occasionally Esperanto.

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saeb saeb August 22, 2010 August 22, 2010 at 10:39:35 PM UTC link Permalink

welcome aboard :)

TRANG TRANG August 23, 2010 August 23, 2010 at 1:52:03 AM UTC link Permalink

Welcome to Tatoeba, Shazzan :)

If you were talking about translating the website into Esperanto, then you will need to register on a website called Launchpad and then translate from this page:
https://translations.launchpad..../eo/+translate

If you were talking about translating the sentences in the corpus, then I suppose you already figured out.

Galician is not yet an officially supported language, but you can simply follow the instructions in the FAQ to have it added: http://tatoeba.org/eng/faq (cf. "I'd like to request a new language. What do I have to do?")

In general, if you have trouble understanding how Tatoeba works don't hesitate to ask.

landano landano August 21, 2010 August 21, 2010 at 2:22:50 PM UTC link Permalink

I often switch between several languages, and it's always somewhat painful having to locate them in the total list of languages. It happens regularly that I inadvertently select the wrong language. Something like a list of favourite or least recently used languages for quicker selection would be very helpful.

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TRANG TRANG August 23, 2010 August 23, 2010 at 1:31:19 AM UTC link Permalink

I agree that the language list is becoming a bit too crowded but I can't say for sure when we can improve this... We will though, don't worry ^^

But in the meantime, if you want to avoid switching too often between the mouse and the keyboard, you can do the following after you have entered your translation:

- Press tab to set the focus on the languages list
- Enter the first letter(s) of the language of you want to select. For instance "ger" for German (or you can simply enter "g" and then navigate press down until you reach German).
- Press tab to set the focus on the "submit translation" button.
- Press enter to submit the translation.

This way, at least, you don't need to switch to the mouse to change the language.

In the future, we'll try to set up an interface where you won't need to use the mouse at all. It will be less cumbersome.

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Swift Swift August 24, 2010 August 24, 2010 at 2:26:30 PM UTC link Permalink

I made a mock-up version of the Tatoeba search interface moving the search bar in front of the language selection menus and adding the accesskey "4".

That would simplify the process into:
1. [accesskey-combination]-4
2. Type search query
3a. If language settings needn't be set, hit <Enter>
3b. If language settings need to be set, tab and select before tabbing to the submit button.

All with the keyboard. :-)

Any chance something like this could find its way into the interface soon?

Mock up: http://martin.swift.is/tatoeba/home.html
Accesskey combinations for a number of user agents: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ac...erent_Browsers

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TRANG TRANG August 24, 2010 August 24, 2010 at 3:16:29 PM UTC link Permalink

Right, right, sysko had told me about this. Thanks for reminding me!

And yes it can find its way into the interface soon :) Next update.

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Swift Swift August 25, 2010 August 25, 2010 at 6:20:02 PM UTC link Permalink

Two quick comments on the search bar update: Firstly, could you disable the javascript that sets the focus to the search field? It currently disables scrolling around the page with the arrow, page up and down, and home and end keys (until one has removed focus). Say one has scrolled down a bit using the mouse but not yet removed the focus from the search field; then any typing on the keyboard will send the viewframe to the top.

In certain cases where entering text into a form is the only purpose to going to that particular page, setting the focus to that form does make sense. So on the "Contribute" page it might make sense to set the focus to #SentenceText.

Secondly, could you add an accesskey ("4" seems to be as standard as it gets for search fields) for the search box? It's fairly unobtrusive as it has virtually no side effects.

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TRANG TRANG August 25, 2010 August 25, 2010 at 6:42:12 PM UTC link Permalink

True, true. Fixed :)

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Swift Swift August 25, 2010 August 25, 2010 at 6:46:44 PM UTC link Permalink

Awesome! Thanks. :-)

Swift Swift August 24, 2010 August 24, 2010 at 4:05:47 PM UTC link Permalink

Great! Thanks. :-)

landano landano August 23, 2010 August 23, 2010 at 10:34:15 AM UTC link Permalink

Ok, I'm looking forward to the day this gets some improvements. Until then I can live with the current solution, just wanted to get my thoughts across. Thanks.

Swift Swift August 21, 2010 August 21, 2010 at 3:16:40 PM UTC link Permalink

Do you mean the drop down lists of languages? Most user agents let you jump to the item by pressing the first few characters.

For example, for English you can select the list (by clicking on it with your pointer, tabbing to it or however you select things) and then hit the "e" key twice (the first gets you to Egyptian Arabic and the second key press selects the entry below; English.

You can also type the first few characters. In the case of Italian, you'd be quicker to type "it" than hit "i" four times.

Hope that helped.

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landano landano August 21, 2010 August 21, 2010 at 3:42:29 PM UTC link Permalink

I'm aware of that quick navigation feature with the keyboard, but in my eyes that's still too cumbersome. Too many clicks, too many changes from mouse to keyboard and back to mouse. A handful of configurable language buttons somwhere near or some often used entries at the top of the drop down list would be much better.

Demetrius Demetrius August 22, 2010 August 22, 2010 at 9:18:52 PM UTC link Permalink

[@sysko and anyone interested]
Uzbek script-switching code is here:
http://uyghur.webatu.com/uzb/uzbek_script.zip

The Cyrillic>Latin should work fine, Latin>Cyrillic may have problems with Russian loanwords. Also, it may be slow, since it’s a simple PHP str_replace w/ 2 arrays.

A simple page for anyone to toy with the transliteration:
http://uyghur.webatu.com/uzb/

blay_paul blay_paul August 22, 2010 August 22, 2010 at 9:01:16 PM UTC link Permalink

There are about 26 sentences with the 'Bosnian' tag. Is that enough for a flag?

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 22, 2010 August 22, 2010 at 9:02:30 PM UTC link Permalink

Yes. Especially because there are going to be lots, lots more...

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Demetrius Demetrius August 22, 2010 August 22, 2010 at 9:15:31 PM UTC link Permalink

Are there any Bosnian and Croatian sentences these NOT matching Serbian?.. :o

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 22, 2010 August 22, 2010 at 9:24:13 PM UTC link Permalink

Nope :-)

I add all three versions together when I add Bosnian/Croatian.

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 22, 2010 August 22, 2010 at 9:27:08 PM UTC link Permalink

We really need the flags before the duplicate-script removal starts eliminating Bosnian sentences as duplicates of the Croatian... ;-)

(just kidding, I differentiated all the flags)

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 22, 2010 August 22, 2010 at 9:02:56 PM UTC link Permalink

(Croatian as well, please)

blay_paul blay_paul August 21, 2010 August 21, 2010 at 11:44:48 AM UTC link Permalink

Quick request.

Could you add a link from the sentence annotations page of an example to the example itself?

e.g.
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentence...ns/show/118697
should have a link to
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/118697

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 20, 2010 August 20, 2010 at 6:12:59 PM UTC link Permalink

It seems silly that this hasn't been brought up before, but why not add a note about the need for periods and capitalization? I think a lot of new users are just not aware of this point until they get commented on.

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TRANG TRANG August 20, 2010 August 20, 2010 at 9:09:54 PM UTC link Permalink

We'll be processing sentences to automatically add missing periods, capital letters and fix other typography issues. Sacredceltic had actually brought this up already.

But it's true we can add a note about punctuation and capital letters. I'll append it to the red warning message below the translation form.

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Demetrius Demetrius August 21, 2010 August 21, 2010 at 7:56:16 PM UTC link Permalink

BTW, we should be careful when adding sentences with periods.

Sometimes there are non-standard 1337-like ‘punctuation’ like "!!1" in the end.

I’m not sure whether we should keep such sentences though...

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blay_paul blay_paul August 21, 2010 August 21, 2010 at 9:28:04 PM UTC link Permalink

I think non-standard punctuation is appropriate when the rest of the example is of the same style. (This applies to the ♪'s used to end some Japanese sentences).

saeb saeb August 21, 2010 August 21, 2010 at 3:07:22 AM UTC link Permalink

I've got ~3k sentences with the period at the beginning -_-' (help, plz?)

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sysko sysko August 21, 2010 August 21, 2010 at 11:33:11 AM UTC link Permalink

I think looking how long we know each other that I can do it for you :p
can you give an id of a correct position period and a non correct one, because in the database I'm a bit confused about how they display arabic script.

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saeb saeb August 22, 2010 August 22, 2010 at 12:36:20 PM UTC link Permalink

thank you so much sysko

period at the beginning:
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/370561

period at the end:
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/370569

blay_paul blay_paul August 20, 2010 August 20, 2010 at 6:45:52 PM UTC link Permalink

It sounds like a good idea to me.

blay_paul blay_paul August 20, 2010 August 20, 2010 at 4:14:13 PM UTC link Permalink

Thursday WWWJDIC examples status update.

30 records deleted.
13 records added.