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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais July 16, 2010 July 16, 2010 at 1:51:16 AM UTC link Permalink

Random Tag Suggestion for French Contributors:

This probably won't mean much for native speakers, but out of personal experience, I feel like a "passé simple" tag could be really useful at some point down the road. The reason being (again, this is only out of personal experience) that this is something that classes often skim over, leaving students woefully unprepared for when they see it used.

I'll mark them as I see them, I suppose, but if other contributors could as well, it might prove to be useful later (once Tatoeba becomes super popular and French teachers begin to send their students here for extra practice :-)

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Demetrius Demetrius July 16, 2010 July 16, 2010 at 11:36:34 AM UTC link Permalink

IHMO tag names should be kept in English for consistency.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic July 17, 2010 July 17, 2010 at 11:28:13 PM UTC link Permalink

no, tags should not be kept inEnglish. Tags are tags. They're user-defined according to need and it's an international project...
My view is actually that tags are irrelevant, but that's another issue...

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Demetrius Demetrius July 18, 2010 July 18, 2010 at 12:47:23 AM UTC link Permalink

Tag support is still experimental. While we don't have an internalisation for tags, it has been decided they should be in English for the time being.

Tags will not be English all the time.

blay_paul blay_paul July 16, 2010 July 16, 2010 at 7:39:52 PM UTC link Permalink

'Established' tags should ideally be included in the multi-language support framework (launchpad). It is entirely possible that one day somebody who only speaks (say) Korean will be here to learn (say) Swahili. If the tags are all in English that isn't going to help him much.

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sysko sysko July 16, 2010 July 16, 2010 at 8:17:00 PM UTC link Permalink

sure, or maybe we can think about something in our side, a "launchpad" internal to tatoeba

sysko sysko July 16, 2010 July 16, 2010 at 11:53:10 AM UTC link Permalink

sure we should find the English translation of "passé simple"

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Demetrius Demetrius July 16, 2010 July 16, 2010 at 11:54:45 AM UTC link Permalink

Passé simple (Simple Past)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_conjugation

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sysko sysko July 16, 2010 July 16, 2010 at 11:55:39 AM UTC link Permalink

faster than me ^^

witbrock witbrock July 18, 2010 July 18, 2010 at 12:12:03 AM UTC link Permalink

preterite is the technical name for this in English

sysko sysko July 16, 2010 July 16, 2010 at 11:00:20 AM UTC link Permalink

I was going to propose the same for subjonctif :)
but sure it make sense to tag grammar point

blay_paul blay_paul July 15, 2010 July 15, 2010 at 1:49:51 PM UTC link Permalink

Thursday WWWJDIC example check

2 Records deleted
27 Records added

Most of the latter are from the "Japanese sentences without indices (for Jim)" list after I added the index data.

Scott Scott July 10, 2010 July 10, 2010 at 4:30:25 PM UTC link Permalink

Using content from smart.fm

As some of you might know, smart.fm is a language learning website that has, amongst other things, a large collection of example sentences. They have many J-E sentences and possibly sentences in other languages too. It would be interesting if we could use those sentences as part of Tatoeba. If you look here: http://developer.smart.fm/forum/read/30074

They said that their content would be available under CC-BY.

Has anyone tried to contact smart.fm to be able to use their sentences?

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Scott Scott July 14, 2010 July 14, 2010 at 7:07:49 PM UTC link Permalink

I'll assume that nobody has contacted them. It might be a good idea to do so, if you have the time. I would do it but I'm not part of the project, nor do I know anything about technical matters.

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sysko sysko July 14, 2010 July 14, 2010 at 7:12:25 PM UTC link Permalink

this is a really good idea, and yep we have not yet contacted them, we will try to do it soon

Pharamp Pharamp July 10, 2010 July 10, 2010 at 6:01:40 PM UTC link Permalink

I like the idea^^

linkmauve linkmauve July 13, 2010 July 13, 2010 at 7:28:07 PM UTC link Permalink

I don’t use a mouse, and some links (like the translation, adopt… toolbar icons, the flag for changing the language and perhaps at other places) are not real links and so aren’t “clickable” using the tab button or Vimperator.

Simply adding a <a/> tag around the <img/> tag would solve this accessibility problem.

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sysko sysko July 13, 2010 July 13, 2010 at 8:53:56 PM UTC link Permalink

ok thanks to notify us this, we will try to fix it ASAP (sorry if it sounds like a call center quick answer), I tought it was not "standard" compliant to use <a> tag for links which are in fact only use by javascript and which point to nothing (I agree that we whould in fact not rely on javascript, and permit real link to a translate page, an adopt page etc. and only make js intercept the click event)
but I admit that as none of in the dev team has accessibility problem, we haven't tried so much how "accesible" was our website

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linkmauve linkmauve July 13, 2010 July 13, 2010 at 9:27:46 PM UTC link Permalink

I don’t know anyone that is disabled, so I don’t know how JS is a problem. But I know a lot of people (me included) that use only their keyboard because mouse is a waste of time and energy.
I have seen a lot of links like <a href="#" onclick="doSomething(); return false;"/> but I think a <input type="image"/> would be a better way to do that. You can find the three types of “links” here: http://linkmauve.fr/tatoeba/links (the first isn’t clickable without a mouse).
Thanks!

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sysko sysko July 13, 2010 July 13, 2010 at 9:42:50 PM UTC link Permalink

as an input outside a form element is not xhtml1.1 compliant
and if I plan to have the possibility to navigate without javascript
I will choose the <a href="#" onclick=""> (which is the "intercept by js" option I told about)

blay_paul blay_paul July 13, 2010 July 13, 2010 at 9:43:37 PM UTC link Permalink

> But I know a lot of people (me included) that use only
> their keyboard because mouse is a waste of time and
> energy.

Can I get a 'Microsoft Sucks' here? I'm using Office 2007
and all the short-cut keys have changed and a lot of the new stuff doesn't _have_ proper short cut keys. :-(

sysko sysko July 12, 2010 July 12, 2010 at 10:30:18 AM UTC link Permalink

Just to say were back from a weekend at the RMLL (a meeting of free project, "public" oriented), at first we were just supposed to visit, and at the end, thanks to shtooka project (those who help us providing audio) give us a place to present tatoeba

That was really really great, people, from geek to the 40-years old mother who were here to buy vegetable(because there was a market near) where impressed about tatoeba, even more when they saw that when I add a sentences, in the hour it was translated in other languages (thanks to CK , Pharamp and you all :)).
It was also the occasion to finally present the project to other "free project", so maybe other collaboration will be possible in a near future.
There's so much to say about it, we've really met a lot of interesting people.
I just want to say "thanks you"to you all :) to help us providing such a wonderful community for language learners

CK CK July 10, 2010, edited October 26, 2019 July 10, 2010 at 2:57:11 AM UTC, edited October 26, 2019 at 3:55:56 AM UTC link Permalink

[not needed - removed by CK]

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brauliobezerra brauliobezerra July 10, 2010 July 10, 2010 at 4:26:50 AM UTC link Permalink

I completely agree.

sysko sysko July 11, 2010 July 11, 2010 at 9:21:21 PM UTC link Permalink

I agree too, we plan (seems I always say that :p) to have an interface to for modos to simply edit/delete/add tags, add a description to them (for example the SVCC tag is maybe not obvious for most people) which will be seen when on the "this tag" list, this way every modos will be able to manage tags without needing database access

because as you've seen the problem is more general it's "there's not yet an interface to manage tags" ^^

jordi jordi July 10, 2010 July 10, 2010 at 4:28:05 AM UTC link Permalink

I wonder about the code of the project.
Being hosted by the FSF makes me think it is opensource but can't find the code anywhere.

I would like to suggest to host the code in a service like github or gitorious. I have seen previously other projects getting a developer community thanks of that.

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sysko sysko July 11, 2010 July 11, 2010 at 9:18:19 PM UTC link Permalink

http://www.assembla.com/code/ta...bversion/nodes the source code is here, under AGPL v3, for the "why don't you use github which is more "famous among developpers" I will simply answer "historical reason" at the beginning the project was made as a somewhat "one guy" (Trang) project and she didn't know so much about coding, what people use, free software etc. and now all the tickets etc. are on assembla and it's difficult to move

but don't worry, for some technical limitation, we plan to rebuild the website in python/django and then the project will be host on github, so we will wait this time to migrate to something more "standard" and easy to find for developpers who wants to help us.

CK CK July 10, 2010, edited October 26, 2019 July 10, 2010 at 4:35:24 AM UTC, edited October 26, 2019 at 3:59:57 AM UTC link Permalink

[not needed - removed by CK]

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Pharamp Pharamp July 10, 2010 July 10, 2010 at 11:53:58 AM UTC link Permalink

Where's Pharamp???

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Scott Scott July 10, 2010 July 10, 2010 at 3:43:26 PM UTC link Permalink

I think that it takes a few days for new sentences to be searchable. Searching for =Pharamp doesn't yield any results.

MUIRIEL MUIRIEL July 10, 2010 July 10, 2010 at 10:26:13 AM UTC link Permalink

That aren't all names that are on Tatoeba ;).

jordi jordi July 10, 2010 July 10, 2010 at 5:02:40 AM UTC link Permalink

I wonder if Spanish should be broken down in more specific languages.
In fact it is a difficult problem, maybe 85% of sentences may be the same for all the Spanish speaking countries but 15% may not be.

For instance, I came across "Is this a computer?"

Spanish from Spain would say: "¿Es esto un ordenador?"
Almost everywhere else would say: "¿Es esto una computadora?"

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL July 10, 2010 July 10, 2010 at 10:40:37 AM UTC link Permalink

I think separating Spanish into different languages wouldn't be a good solution. Think about the 85% of the sentences that are identic. You would then have to add them several times with different flags.
I think this problem should be solved with tags (like "Spain only").

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Pharamp Pharamp July 10, 2010 July 10, 2010 at 11:52:22 AM UTC link Permalink

Yes, tags exist for this purpose too^^
Now their features are quite basic and the ability to tag sentence is restricted to trusted_users, but in a few weeks/months I think it will be extended to everyone!

So, when this will happen, Jordi, feel free to tag every Spanish sentence with a regional tag :)

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sysko sysko July 11, 2010 July 11, 2010 at 9:14:41 PM UTC link Permalink

yep for English we already have "british" flag, so for some "regional" difference, tags will help make the difference, maybe after we will see to make something more specific than tags, but I think in a first time it's a good way to make the difference

MUIRIEL MUIRIEL July 10, 2010 July 10, 2010 at 10:43:00 AM UTC link Permalink

btw, there is a similar problem with Portuguese.

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL July 10, 2010 July 10, 2010 at 10:46:01 AM UTC link Permalink

ok, thinking about it, I think that this problem exists more or less in nearly all languages.
French from France vs French from Quebec
American English vs British English
German in Germany, in Austria, in Switzerland
and so on...

brauliobezerra brauliobezerra July 10, 2010 July 10, 2010 at 12:27:38 PM UTC link Permalink

I've thought about it sometimes, and my conclusion is that, since the governments of all Portuguese speaking countries are always making efforts to unificate at least the grammar and the orthography, we should put all of them under a single flag. This works well on Wikipedia, IMHO.

blay_paul blay_paul July 9, 2010 July 9, 2010 at 2:16:35 PM UTC link Permalink

Near duplicates - example case.

In accordance with earlier debate on this forum I have been removing near duplicate sentences from those exported to WWWJDIC instead of deleting them. However it was never, IMO, clear exactly when (if ever) deleting near duplicates from Tatoeba is recommended.

Here is one example:

http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/196748
べティは彼女を殺した。
Betty killed her.

http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/196749
べティは彼を殺した。
Betty killed him.

The only difference is whether 'her' or 'him' was the victim of Betty's crime of passion. Is it OK to delete one from Tatoeba or not?

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CK CK July 9, 2010, edited October 26, 2019 July 9, 2010 at 3:03:55 PM UTC, edited October 26, 2019 at 3:56:15 AM UTC link Permalink

[not needed - removed by CK]

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Demetrius Demetrius July 9, 2010 July 9, 2010 at 3:28:46 PM UTC link Permalink

Not all 'My name"'s are translated identically.



Bel. (Rus., Ukr.) make clear distinction between imia (first name) and proz'višča (last name).

Other languages may have other unexpected things (like changing gender), so the more the better.

CK CK July 9, 2010, edited October 26, 2019 July 9, 2010 at 3:24:43 PM UTC, edited October 26, 2019 at 3:56:05 AM UTC link Permalink

[not needed - removed by CK]

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sysko sysko July 9, 2010 July 9, 2010 at 3:26:45 PM UTC link Permalink

no sentence "Betty is a serial killer" ?

sysko sysko July 9, 2010 July 9, 2010 at 2:26:02 PM UTC link Permalink

http://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/sho...7#message_1237

so no, we do not delete for 2 reasons:
1 - some language learner (me at least) like to have a sentence in a target language, and to see how it changes depending of tense etc.
2 - we will use them for natural language processing

moreover I think contributors will by themselves limit the number of variation they add on a single sentence

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sysko sysko July 9, 2010 July 9, 2010 at 2:38:31 PM UTC link Permalink

but I agree that when sentences like these are found, it needs to be noted in comments with links to each other,and maybe add them a tag, in order to ease @blay_paul job to no integrate them in wwwjdic ?