Wall (5,772 threads)
Before asking a question, make sure to read the FAQ.
We aim to maintain a healthy atmosphere for civilized discussions. Please read our rules against bad behavior.
4 hours ago
7 hours ago
7 hours ago
11 hours ago
23 hours ago
**Need testing for new sentence design**
The migration towards the new sentence design is continuing. I think pretty soon the new design can be used as the default for regular contributors.
I have deployed new changes on the dev website: https://dev.tatoeba.org/
I still have a few things to fix but you can already start testing it and report issues.
For those who have the option enabled, the new design will be used on every page except for the sentence's page.
For those who do not have the option enabled, the new design will be used only on the random sentence, with a message informing that the new design will soon be rolled out.
If you have time, please test this everywhere you can think of.
I've tried three times to change the sentence on "Random sentence" and its flag. It keeps loading forever and just changed one sentence (Google Chrome Windows 7 - https://prnt.sc/r7x2l8 )
Same problem on Add sentences page.
1st - I've added a sentence
2nd - I changed its flag
3rd - I clicked on "save". Nothing changes and it keeps loading forever
However, if I go to the sentence's page, the flag I've chosen is displayed - https://dev.tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/7841209
Thanks for testing. This should be fixed. Please have another try :)
That works smoothly now! Thanks a lot!!! :D
On "Add sentences page", I've added a sentence which exists on the database. It was displayed that it has 18 more translations but I couldn't see them even after clicking so many times - https://prnt.sc/r87hmg
I've created a list on the "Random sentence" called Test New Design - https://prnt.sc/r87iqj However, when I look for it on "Browse by list page", it says that my list doesn't exist -https://prnt.sc/r87j9g
Also, the "link" button doesn't work even being a CM in there - https://prnt.sc/r87kkh
Just a thought - couldn't it be displayed by default - https://prnt.sc/r87jm2 -?
Your list is a private list by default. You won't find it if you search in the public list. You'll find it in "My lists".
The "link" feature was not implemented yet. It's normal that the link is disabled. Features that are not yet implemented are: transcriptions, linking, copy and reviews. They will come later.
If we display the whole menu by default, the owner of the sentence is no longer visible by default and I'm not sure we want that. There is currently only one page where the whole menu is displayed by default: the "Adopt sentences" page (where sentences have no owner).
>Your list is a private list by default. You won't find it if you search in the public >list. You'll find it in "My lists".
I got the point, but this could be displayed to me with a label like "This is your private list"/"This is a private list which you created, so it'll be displayed to you only", I think..
> The "link" feature was not implemented yet. It's normal that the link is >disabled. Features that are not yet implemented are: transcriptions, linking, >copy and reviews. They will come later.
Oh, I see. Thanks for spotting this. Meanwhile, what could an user do to link sentences if he or she uses the new design?
>If we display the whole menu by default, the owner of the sentence is no >longer visible by default and I'm not sure we want that. There is currently only >one page where the whole menu is displayed by default: the "Adopt
> sentences" page (where sentences have no owner).
Oh, I see. Thanks :)
> I got the point, but this could be displayed to me with a label like "This is
> your private list"/"This is a private list which you created, so it'll be
> displayed to you only", I think..
I think this would be a little bit of a waste of space. We should rather rework the "Search" feature in the "Browse by list" section. Currently if you search from the "Public lists", you only find public lists. If you search from "Collaborative lists", you only find collaborative lists. If you search from "My lists", you only find lists that you created. It's probably not very practical and not very intuitive either. As your have shown, it's quite likely that the user who makes a search wants to find lists in all of the categories, and not just the currently selected category.
But for your specific case, I think the best solution in my opinion is to make it possible to go to the list page from the list form, as mentioned in the "Improvements for another iteration" of the pull request for the list feature:
As mentioned though, this will be for another iteration...
> Just a thought - couldn't it be displayed by default - https://prnt.sc/r87jm2 -?
I tried to implement a solution so that the user can expand all menus and keep the state expanded from page to page.
Please have a try on the dev website and let me know if it feels intuitive enough.
In general, if you can, please test again the new sentence design everywhere you can and let me know if there are other issues.
Whoa! That's really amazing, thank you!
Just some notes I took during the tests I was running
1 - It's not that clear how to close the "list box" after choosing one.
A possible solution: turn the "close" button from white and black - https://prnt.sc/rdh65z into green and white
2 - Take the sentence https://dev.tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/2504640
We're used to have the sentence in black. Why are some strings in green and some others in grey? https://prnt.sc/rdh65z
3 - The "i" icon doesn't show anything unless you click on it. Perhaps it could be added a tool tip?
4 - Isn't possible to type the language we want instead of always having to scroll down the page to the language we're looking for? >> https://prnt.sc/rdh89f
Thanks for testing Ricardo.
1. Would adding a "X" icon next to "Close" make it clearer? For instance: https://imgur.com/a/qh0O5AM
2. You posted the wrong screenshot. I'm not sure what is the problem...
3. We can add a tooltip yes. Would "Go to the sentence page" be clear enough?
4. I'm able to type. I'm not sure why you can't. Do you have the same problem for the language selector in the search bar?
1 - yes, that's a great option :)
2 - sorry about that. That's the correct screenshot - https://prnt.sc/rdhhyg
Basically, "Translations" and "Translations of translations" could be green as the sentence ID and the username - https://dev.tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/4368122
3 - Sure!!!!
4 - I'm sorry. I was using a "customized Chrome" that doesn't that. In regular Chrome I can do so :)
> Basically, "Translations" and "Translations of translations" could be green
We cannot use green because green is the color for links. The sentence ID and the username are clickable and will go respectively to the sentence page and the user profile. "Translations" and "Translations of translations" are not links. They are just labels.
Oh I see now :) Thanks
I'll keep testing
I tried testing by showing a list of sentences with tags, but this gets an error message.
It works now. (09:17:55 UTC)
> For those who do not have the option enabled, the new design will be used only on the random sentence, with a message informing that the new design will soon be rolled out.
I tested this with "Display sentences with the new design" on and off and still don't see the new design.
The sentence's page will remain with the old design until all the features are ported to the new design because it ensures that people who have the new design enabled can still access all the sentence features if they need to.
Features that are not yet implemented are: transcriptions, linking, copying and reviews.
> The sentence's page will remain with the old design
I decided in the end to use the new design on the sentence's page as well, since it's not the first time I get this comment.
For more details about the changes see the corresponding pull request:
Note that my comment was specifically about the "random sentence" https://dev.tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/random .
But the random sentence is the sentence's page. It just picks a random sentence number and redirects you to the page of that sentence.
OK. I was just testing everything in the "Browse" menu, and you mentioned that the "random sentence" would show the new design and it didn't.
Okay, sorry, I was not specific enough. What I meant is that only the random sentence on the *homepage* uses the new design for people who don't have the option enabled.
PaulP a coupé des liens de traduction que j'avais établis, légitimement.
Il fait ça pour des liens de traductions dont aucune n'est sa langue natale.
Il n'a aucune légitimité pour apprécier si le lien est légitime ou pas.
Le problème est aggravé par le fait que l'auteur des liens (moi) n'est jamais averti.
Je soupçonne que des centaines de liens vers mes phrases sont supprimés par PaulP.
Je demande à ce qu'on puisse disposer d'un état des suppressions de liens avec des statistiques par auteur des suppressions et par auteur des liens, de façon à pouvoir apprécier les quantités de dégâts causés.
Täältä näkee joitakin uusimpia: https://tatoeba.org/spa/contrib.../of_user/PaulP
J'ai créé un ticket sur GitHub:
Pour ce qui est des statistiques, sharptoothed en propose déjà:
Dans le tableau il y a une colonne "Links / deleted".
Je crois que le chiffre en bleu est le delta par rapport à la semaine précédente mais je ne suis pas sûre. Vous pouvez demander à sharptoothed pour plus de précision. Il annonce régulièrement la mise à jour des statistiques:
Merci mais, en l’état, c’est un comme chercher une aiguille dans une botte de foin.
Je viens de regarder les statistiques de Sharptoothed et je suis tout simplement effaré par les quantités industrielles de liens détruits.
Établir un lien de traduction, c’est un travail patient à haute valeur ajoutée, qui nécessite souvent des atermoiements et de mûres réflexions. Les détruire, ça ne nécessite qu’un jugement superficiel et péremptoire et ça se fait en un clic.
C’est une guerre asymétrique...
J'ai une autre proposition : seul un contributeur avancé ou admin avec pour langue natale une des 2 langues du lien et un niveau 4/5 sur la 2e langue devrait pourvoir supprimer un lien entre 2 langues. Simple.
Mais ça n'empêcherait pas de nécessiter un moyen de tout de même contrôler les suppressions de liens...
Happy International Women's Day!
¡Feliz Día Internacional de la Mujer!
Bonne Journée internationale des femmes !
Felice Giornata internazionale della donna!
Feliz Dia Internacional da Mulher!
Срећан Међународни Дан Жена!
Könnte jemand mit dem Ausdruck "sage mal so" ein (o. mehr) Gespräch hinzufügen?
Danke im Voraus.
Meinst du das?
Naja, keine Ahnung, wovon die reden.
In Österreich assoziert man das mit Herbert Prohaska. (I sog amoi so - gibts auch als T-Shirt)
Wahrscheinlich schon. Ich hab's mehrmals gehört, bin aber nicht ganz klar, wann man das verwendet.
Ich sag's mal so: Dieser Artikel ist völliger Mist.
Edit: Ich würde sagen, man verwendet das am Satzanfang, vor einer Meinungsäußerung.
Ist es äquivalent mit z.B. " ich bin der Meinung, ..."?
Naja, inhaltlich schon, aber der Ton ist anders.
Bei "Ich sag's mal so" ist der Sprecher sehr von seiner Meinung überzeugt, und stellt diese quasi als Fakt dar. Er will den Anderen überzeugen oder zumindest keine andere Meinung hören.
Bei "Ich bin der Meinung, ..." gibt der Sprecher offen zu, dass es sich nur um eine Meinung handelt und lässt Raum für andere Meinungen oder die Möglichkeit dass er sich irrt.
Schon klar, bedanke mich.
Could you consider proper filling the profile of the user https://tatoeba.org/eng/user/profile/CK?
What seems to be the problem with it?
This is a profile of an admin account. I just believe that filling it properly helps to transmit more transparency and increase the reputation of the website.
It seems to be filled in properly. If you mean the personal information, like the birthday, the name, etc., you don't have to disclose this information if you don't feel like it, whether you're an admin or not an admin. You're also free to remove that from your user profile, nobody would blink an eye.
I see. The problem is how to increase the reputation of the website? If everything is so blind, we can’t trust the project. CK is pushing many sentences, what is his goal? Having people working for him for free? Is it an valid outcome? What is the frontier between a collaborative website and a platform for recruiting workers for free? More personal information means more transparency about the goals. My two cents. Please don’t take me wrong, I just want to contribute.
You don't have to contribute if you don't feel like it, or if you feel you're free labour for someone.
I don't believe including dates of birth, etc., will make the reputation of Tatoeba better. I don't believe it's bad anyway. :)
Even Wikipedia doesn't require the contributing users to disclose their real names, by the way. And you can ask all these questions about the collaborative website vs a platform that seeks free employees - about it as well. Github is another example.
Yes, you are probably right. Thank you for the discussion.
I think there is also truth in what you said, arademaker.
Obviously I'm on the same page as deniko when it comes to private information such as real name, birthdate, country, etc. If someone doesn't want to indicate this kind of information in their profile, that doesn't make them less trustworthy.
But all the questions you asked are valid questions and there are some fundamental issues we have to solve.
If someone doesn't want to contribute because they simply don't enjoy creating sentences or translating sentences or proofreading sentences, that's okay, there's nothing we can change.
But if someone doesn't feel like contributing because they feel they are working for free for someone (but would otherwise gladly contribute), then it is a problem. This means we just lost them because we could not give them the proper motivation. That would be our fault and we have to do something better.
The thoughts that you shared with us are telling us an important message: the profile of admins can make a difference in motivating new members to contribute. Of course it's not the only factor that will encourage or discourage a new member, but it can have a significant influence.
The same goes for anyone's profile, not just admins. But since admins are the first ones displayed in the list, it is more likely that their profile will be seen first, so it is more responsibility on admins to give a good impression.
So, let's try to improve this.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts :)
Thank you @TRANG for taking my words in a positive way! As I said before, I just one to contribute.
> But if someone doesn't feel like contributing because they feel they are working for free for someone (but would otherwise gladly contribute), then it is a problem.
Note that we are all working for free for whoever wants to use our data.
Our license, CC BY 2.0 FR, allows others to use our data for commercial uses as well.
BTW, all my projects that use data from the Tatoeba Project are non-commercial and available ad-free on the web. http://bit.ly/tatoebaprojects.
I think this is slightly missing the point.
Yes, it's a fact that all of us are working for free in some ways. But the issue is more about feeling like you're not getting anything in return.
No one really works for free. In our case, we cannot pay back with monetary rewards but we can still pay back with something. No one would be contributing in Tatoeba if we cannot give anything back to them.
It is up to each person to eventually find within themselves a non-financial motivation to contribute. But it is up to us to provide an environment or a context that makes it easier for them to find this motivation.
Sorry if this has been covered, but I have a question regarding translating sentences with implied subjects or objects. I'd like to contribute back to Tatoeba as thanks for the incredible use I've gotten from here.
In Japanese the subject or object in a sentence is often omitted once it's clear from the context of the conversation what it's about. So a single word could be a complete sentence in Japanese when it would only be a fragment in English. What's the standard practice for translating these kinds of sentences?
I see a bunch of Japanese sentences without English translations that I understand completely, but would have to insert a you/them/me/it/etc to make it make sense in English.
If there are several valid English translations to a given Japanese sentence, you can add any, all, or none of them, as you prefer. The same with other languages, naturally.
The same happens when translating from English to most other languages; "you" can be singular, plural or general. Thus, "You should not drive." has three different translations to many other languages.
And in some languages (such as Italian and French), it can also be masculine or feminine.
I think this is a frequently asked question, so I added it to our FAQ. Thanuir already provided the basic answer, I have added some additional explanation in the FAQ.
It's really up to you.
If you think one translation is a lot more likely than the other, you can add only that translation. If you think it makes sense to add all the translations, then you can add all the possible translations.
If you think all the translations make sense but it gets boring to add them all every time (and surely you will), then you can just choose randomly, or based on your personal preference, which translation to add.
We don't need to have every sentence translated in every possible ways. What is important to us is that the corpus in its whole carries all the possible ways.
For example, we have English sentences with the word "you" and this word can be translated in different ways in other languages. For the sake of simplicity, we'll assume two forms: singular and plural. In this case, we just want to make sure that at least one sentence is translated with the singular form and at least one sentence is translated with the plural form. So if you notice no one translated with the singular form, then you can add it (and vice versa for the plural form). If you feel that one form is under-represented compared to the other, then you can favor translations with the form that is under-represented so that we have a good balance between the two.
> I see a bunch of Japanese sentences without English translations
I find translating from Japanese quite tedious because of what you describe. You just can’t add all the variations all the time, you really have to think about what kind of context the sentence can or cannot be used, depending on the omitted parts, the politeness, the 語尾 etc. and this require quite of a deep feeling of the language. The shorter sentence, the more difficult to translate. Because of that, I sometimes end up not translating a sentence I thought I’d able to translate.
Attention to people searching in Greek, Tamil, Basque, Hindi, Arabic, Catalan, Nepali, Irish and Lithuanian.
In the past, searching in these languages only returned exact matches. Now, similar words will also match. This feature is called stemming.
For example, in English, which has stemming enabled, searching for "like" will also find sentences including likes, likely, liked, etc. Prefixing a word with an equal sign (for example =like) will only return exact matches.
I wonder if the stemming algorithm used to stem Arabic could be used as-is for other Arabic varieties.
Tested it for Hindi and it works well. I hope one day we'll have Marathi stemming too!
Why not making the European Portuguese and the Brazilian Portuguese separated languages?
** Stats & Graphs **
Tatoeba Stats, Graphs & Charts have been updated:
**Tatoeba UI translation: Stats and a “thank you post"**
As for February 20, 2020 11:00 A.M. BRT (GMT -3)
Languages that got the “Ready for use” status” (all strings have been translated) *
Status of some other languages: *
Italian - 13 strings to translate
German - 19 strings to translate
Spanish - 20 strings to translate
Finnish - 36 strings to translate
Dutch - 46 strings to translate
Japanese - 50 strings to translate
Ukrainian - 110 strings to translate
Arabic - 257 strings to translate
Czech - 357 strings to translate
All status - https://www.transifex.com/tatoe...ite/dashboard/
*These status might change weekly (whenever Tatoeba gets updated).
New language supported (thanks, MarijnKp): Luxembourgish. It’ll be available on the drop-down menu as soon as it get more translations
I’d like to thank Amastan, deniko, fjay69, shekkiten, MarijnKp, Micsmithel, arh, Jepang, Elsofie, small_snow, for joining us on Transifex in order to translate Tatoeba UI (February 8 - February 20, 2020) and all other members that already joined and make a marvelous job. You’ve been doing Tatoeba accessible for everyone in the world. You’ve created a great atmosphere for us (“old” Tatoeba members) and for those who will join us :D
In case you’d like to help us, please read https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...ce-translation and contact me - https://tatoeba.org/eng/private...rite/Ricardo14
PS.: In case you want to join us but your language isn’t listed on Transifex yet, please let me know and I’ll help you to set up things ;).
German got the "Ready for use" status! :D (As for today, February 20th, 2020 10:00 p.m. BRT (GMT -3))
Some more updated status
Dutch - 46 >> *30* strings to translate (16 were translated)
Japanese - 50 >> *31* strings to translate (19 were translated)
Thanks, *everyone* :D
Dutch got the "Ready for use" status (February 22nd, 2020)!!!
Ah, so the UI translation is a pretty new feature? I just joined Tatoeba, and was confused by the setting "Netzpostbenachrichtigungen" (my UI got set to German by default). Only after switching to English I realized it means E-Mail notification.
@Roujin, thanks for asking
Actually not. UI = User Interface. (The language you choose to have Tatoeba displayed in)
For now, we can choose, among others
English (the language source)
@Ricardo14, thanks, but I did understand that part.
My UI was set to German automatically (either due to IP based geolocation or because I specified German as my mother tongue). Also I was able to switch to English. That all worked as expected.
The only thing that confused me was the German translation of "email notifications", "Netzpostbenachrichtigungen" (in the account settings). I didn't fully understand what this setting means, until I switched the UI to English. May I suggest changing it to "E-Mail-Benachrichtigungen"?
Oh, my bad. I hadn't got it.
You can either PM Pfirsichbaeumchen to suggest it as translation - https://tatoeba.org/eng/user/pr...rsichbaeumchen or join us on Transifex - https://www.transifex.com/tatoe...ite/dashboard/ :)
> My UI was set to German automatically (either due to IP based geolocation or because I specified German as my mother tongue).
Your initial language was probably set to German due to your browser settings.
That's very good to hear.
Je me demande ce que pensent les contributeurs français d'avoir traduit "Reviews" en "Révisions". Les deux mots ne sont pas des traductions parfaites l'un de l'autre, et dans le cas qui nous intéresse, la fonctionnalité, il me semble, ne concerne absolument pas des "révisions".
Je peux me tromper donc j'aimerais bien avoir vos avis.
"Critiques," ou "Commentaires", peut-être?
Oui, c'est plutôt des vérifications que des révisions.
Après j'avoue que je n'utilise pas des masses le mot "révisions" en dehors du context de révisions pour un exam.
Le mot révision est pourtant usité en ce sens #7110307 #1800528 #8572638. Quelques références :
• Académie 8e édition : https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition.../r%C3%A9vision Action par laquelle on revoit, on examine de nouveau, en vue de corriger, de modifier, de réformer s'il y a lieu
• Larousse : https://www.larousse.fr/diction...a9vision#68378 Action d'examiner de nouveau, de mettre à jour, de modifier
Mon avis : si, comme le dit l’Académie, la révision ne désigne que l’action d’examiner, alors ça pourrait correspondre. Par contre, si, comme le dit le Larousse, la révision désigne l’ensemble du processus, depuis la critique jusqu’à la correction, ou encore la version corrigée, alors ça ne correspond peut-être plus vraiment.
Pour dire les choses autrement, juste "OK" ou "pas OK" c’est peut-être un peu léger pour une révision. Par exemple, si la fonctionnalité permettait, en plus de dire "pas OK", de proposer une correction, alors on pourrait dire "voici la révision de Untel : [phrase modifiée]".
Italian got the "Ready for use" status (as for today February 23rd, 2020 11:58 a.m. BRT (GMT -3)) :D
Spanish got the "Ready for use" status :D