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brauliobezerra brauliobezerra April 15, 2010 April 15, 2010 at 3:46:11 PM UTC link Permalink

About names, can we translate them if there's an obvious correspondence? I'm talking about names like Peter, Mary, etc.

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL April 15, 2010 April 15, 2010 at 5:23:55 PM UTC link Permalink

Good question. Personally, I never translate them, because I think Ann should be called Ann, and not Anne, no matter if she is in France or in the UK at the moment ;).
But I often see translations of names on Tatoeba...

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JimBreen JimBreen April 16, 2010 April 16, 2010 at 2:39:11 PM UTC link Permalink

Hmmm. So my younger sister should change her name from Anne to Ann?
My parents got it wrong? 8-)
Actually Anne is about as common as Ann among English-speaking people. Canonical spellings are a thing of the past. and we've always had Graham and Graeme, Roger and Rodger, etc.

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL April 16, 2010 April 16, 2010 at 2:47:54 PM UTC link Permalink

That's not what I meant.
I just meant that I would call your sister like your parents call her and not translate her name in my language (or in any other language).

blay_paul blay_paul April 15, 2010 April 15, 2010 at 5:27:09 PM UTC link Permalink

With Japanese you should 'transliterate' to katakana so Paul becomes ポール (for instance). When going from Japanese to English there are a number of variations to consider.

TRANG TRANG April 15, 2010 April 15, 2010 at 6:09:01 PM UTC link Permalink

You can.

As far as I'm concerned, I have the same opinion as Muiriel. But we won't forbid translations of names. I don't see any good reason to forbid it anyway.

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Dorenda Dorenda April 15, 2010 April 15, 2010 at 7:02:21 PM UTC link Permalink

In general I agree that a person should be called by his/her own name, no matter where he/she is, but some languages have more of a tendency to translate names (as I read somewhere lately, when they speak about George Bush in Scottish Gaelic, they call him Seòras Bush, for example, while in Dutch we would (nowadays) just leave his name the way it is), so I think you should also consider how common it is for the language you're translating into to translate names or to use the foreign version.
And then there is the next problem... Suppose an English sentence about Peter has been translated into Russian by someone who decided to translate the name. So now we have a Peter and a Pyotr. If someone translated the Russian sentence into Ukrainian, it would look silly not to make it Petro, since that's how they do it: Ukrainians use different versions of their name depending on what language they are speaking. Now if I wanted to translate any of these sentences without translating names, I'd have to make three translations. Or I could just choose one of them and link my translations to all other three sentences, but it would be strange to have a Dutch sentence with Pyotr as a translations of an English sentence about Peter, for example. So I would choose a name that is common in Dutch: Peter, or maybe Pieter or even Petrus.

Long story, but what I wanted to say is: it all depends on the situation and the language you're translating into. :)

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL April 15, 2010 April 15, 2010 at 7:12:16 PM UTC link Permalink

same example for the French^^: They pronounce George Bush as if it was a French name. Too strange for me as German - we would never call him Georg Busch :D.

saeb saeb April 15, 2010 April 15, 2010 at 7:29:46 PM UTC link Permalink

oh god I would never translate peter into arabic. The arabic version sounds awful :P

blay_paul blay_paul April 14, 2010 April 14, 2010 at 2:31:43 PM UTC link Permalink

Sentence Annotation page

Could you put up a "Changes saved" message on the page after you click the 'save' button? Otherwise it's easy to forget whether you've saved the work you've done or not.

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JimBreen JimBreen April 15, 2010 April 15, 2010 at 3:03:37 AM UTC link Permalink

I second that request. Also a log of changes would be really good.

TRANG TRANG April 15, 2010 April 15, 2010 at 9:28:52 AM UTC link Permalink

> Could you put up a "Changes saved" message on the page after you click the 'save' button?

Yes, I'll take care of this after we have moved to our new server.

> Also a log of changes would be really good.

I'll try to do that for the end of the month.

blay_paul blay_paul April 10, 2010 April 10, 2010 at 12:15:53 PM UTC link Permalink

MeCab dictionary usage.

I see that MeCab installs (by default) with IPADIC.

Looking at this page
http://mahoro-ba.net/e1316.html

it would seem that Unidic may give a superior result if it can be used. I plan to do a little experimentation to see if I can improve the parsing capabilities of MeCab from the default setup.

In this regard I would be grateful if someone could recommend a USER FRIENDLY free database that SUPPORTS JAPANESE CHARACTERS.

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saeb saeb April 10, 2010 April 10, 2010 at 4:41:28 PM UTC link Permalink

SQLite?

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blay_paul blay_paul April 10, 2010 April 10, 2010 at 7:18:21 PM UTC link Permalink

> SQLite?

Sounds familiar. Actually I installed that on my previous computer (although in the end different software suited me better for what I was working on then). I gave it a try again, but it's not user friendly enough for me (I'm from the graphical interface generation ;-)

MySQL Workbench + Server looks promising, I'm giving that a try now.

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blay_paul blay_paul April 10, 2010 April 10, 2010 at 10:21:40 PM UTC link Permalink

Disappointed in MySQL Workbench. It's /nearly/ there, but not quite. :-( I'm seriously considering buying Access 2007 now.

I could probably use Excel 2007 for some of it - but it really isn't a good idea to 'make pretend' that a spreadsheet is a database.

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sysko sysko April 10, 2010 April 10, 2010 at 11:16:01 PM UTC link Permalink

mysql + phpmyadmin ?

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blay_paul blay_paul April 10, 2010 April 10, 2010 at 11:46:19 PM UTC link Permalink

I think I'll probably start off with Excel 2007 (because I'm very familiar with it) then gradually migrate the content to MySQL. MySQL isn't bad but there are too many gaps in the thin GUI veneer provided by Workbench. Like having to resort to command line SQL stuff to import data from text. I miss the Access wizards for that sort of thing.

saeb saeb April 10, 2010 April 10, 2010 at 4:47:36 PM UTC link Permalink

google spreadsheet?

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blay_paul blay_paul April 10, 2010 April 10, 2010 at 5:09:25 PM UTC link Permalink

> google spreadsheet?

Sounds rather too 'spreadsheety'. ;-)
I've got Excel 2007 for that. (I'd use Access 2007, but I couldn't afford the professional version of Office)

Now if anyone feels like donating it ... :-)

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saeb saeb April 10, 2010 April 10, 2010 at 5:36:56 PM UTC link Permalink

plus you can get others to collaborate...in real time

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blay_paul blay_paul April 10, 2010 April 10, 2010 at 6:03:57 PM UTC link Permalink

It wouldn't work for what I want to do - the maximum number of rows* is too small.

* Technically maximum number of cells, as the rows allowed varies depending on how many columns are used.

saeb saeb April 10, 2010 April 10, 2010 at 5:22:25 PM UTC link Permalink

it's way neater :), i heart it :P

blay_paul blay_paul April 10, 2010 April 10, 2010 at 4:39:15 PM UTC link Permalink

Update. I tried out Unidic and it reads こういう風 correctly.

Also note that the page linked above shows that you can get auto-generated audio for Japanese sentences. Obviously a human voice would be best, but auto-generated would be a good start (seeing we have so many sentences to deal with). The Unidic voice example is very good.

JimBreen JimBreen April 15, 2010 April 15, 2010 at 3:13:52 AM UTC link Permalink

Unidic has some copyright issues. Kokken have wrapped it up in some typically stupid requirements. NAIST (from whence ChaSen and MeCab
come) have frozen IPADIC (which also has copyright issues) and concentrate on NAIST-JDIC which is much more kosher freeware.

Later this year I'll be starting work on building a super-large dictionary for MeCab/Chasen for a project I'm involved in. I probably won't be able to make a public release of it as I'll be using lexical material from commercial sources and I've signed all sorts of agreements. I'll explore if I can get a copy to Tatoeba.

blay_paul blay_paul April 14, 2010 April 14, 2010 at 11:58:40 AM UTC link Permalink

Missing sentence? (Possibly recently deleted)

ここは天気が良ければとても良い眺めが得られます。
Here, if the weather's good, you can get a lovely view.

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JimBreen JimBreen April 15, 2010 April 15, 2010 at 3:01:13 AM UTC link Permalink

Still there. Japanese is 77859 (owned by you) and the English is 325859. It can't be found by searching for the words, for some reason. Any idea why, Trang? I often can't get to Japanese sentences when using the text as a search key, and I have to go in via the number.

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TRANG TRANG April 15, 2010 April 15, 2010 at 9:33:09 AM UTC link Permalink

Because it hasn't been indexed by the search engine. I haven't launched the indexation process for a while...

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sysko sysko April 18, 2010 April 18, 2010 at 1:12:34 AM UTC link Permalink

The index has been updated, we've switched from lucene to sphinx for the search engine, and we will try to soon make it real-time updated :)

Dorenda Dorenda April 14, 2010 April 14, 2010 at 7:35:55 PM UTC link Permalink

There are two sets of sentences, one saying that Latin is a highly inflected language, and the other saying that Latin is a dead language, and they're linked. I think the Polish and Ukrainian sentences that link them should be unlinked, so that they become two seperate sets, but both owners of these sentences are not trusted users. Can you do that, TRANG, or someone else?
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/352492

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TRANG TRANG April 14, 2010 April 14, 2010 at 9:45:07 PM UTC link Permalink

Okay, done. I could make zipangu a trusted user as well, but he hasn't been back in a while...

Dorenda Dorenda April 14, 2010 April 14, 2010 at 1:49:57 PM UTC link Permalink

Removing sentences from my list of favourites doesn't seem to work. Is it just me, or do others have the same?

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL April 14, 2010 April 14, 2010 at 4:34:37 PM UTC link Permalink

yes, same for me.

TRANG TRANG April 14, 2010 April 14, 2010 at 9:32:42 PM UTC link Permalink

It should be fixed :)

Dorenda Dorenda April 12, 2010 April 12, 2010 at 12:21:09 PM UTC link Permalink

Maybe someone else has suggested this already, but here's my suggestion for an improvement of the site.
I think it would be really nice if it would be possible to search without entering a specific word or sentence, but just by specifying the language. What I mean is, to search for sentences in language X that have/don't have an (indirect) translation in language Y. Or maybe even with multiple languages for X or Y.
Then I could search for sentences (possibly in a certain language) that don't have a translation yet in Dutch in order to translate them. It'd be much more efficient than the "random sentences" thing that is there now, cause after a while half of the sentences that it gives are sentences that I've already translated. And when you are looking for sentences in order to learn them, this feature would be practical if you don't want to learn sentences about a particular topic, but just about anything.

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TRANG TRANG April 12, 2010 April 12, 2010 at 2:27:42 PM UTC link Permalink

But in the meantime, you can ask me, and I will create a list :)

For instance, for zmoo, I have created a list of Russian sentences that don't have any translation into French.
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences_lists/edit/40

If you want something similar for Dutch or any other language, just ask :)

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Dorenda Dorenda April 12, 2010 April 12, 2010 at 7:12:03 PM UTC link Permalink

Good to hear it's in the plans. :)

A list sounds good. Could you make one with Russian and German sentences without Dutch translation (and possibly also Ukrainian sentences, but I think I translated almost all of them except a few that I can't come up with a good translation for)?

Would such a list include sentences which are indirectly linked to a Dutch translation? With the random sentences generator I sometimes get Russian sentences that are linked to a Dutch translation via English and Ukrainian, for example, (but which could be linked directly also, I just can't do that) so the chain is too long and Dutch isn't shown in the list of translations. Now I still remember which sentences I already translated, but I don't know how well I will remember after a thousand or so more translations, so I might end up making duplicates or I have to check all the time. :)

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TRANG TRANG April 12, 2010 April 12, 2010 at 8:06:34 PM UTC link Permalink

Alright, here are your lists.

Russian -> Dutch:
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences_lists/edit/51

German -> Dutch:
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences_lists/edit/52

Ukrainian -> Dutch:
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences_lists/edit/53

They include sentences that do *not* have *direct* translations into Dutch. But it's possible that they have an indirect translation. I will grant you the "trusted user" status so that you can turn them into direct translations (by using the "link" feature).

There are two things you need to know about linking/unlinking:
1) You can only link/unlink sentences when the main sentence (=the top sentence) belongs to you.
2) If you adopt a sentence, you need to refresh before you see the link/unlink icons.

And then I have to force you to read this entirely: http://blog.tatoeba.org/2010/02...n-tatoeba.html
(if you haven't read it already)
Anyone who is a trusted user must read it :P

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Dorenda Dorenda April 12, 2010 April 12, 2010 at 11:28:08 PM UTC link Permalink

Thank you for the lists and for your trust in me. :)
I already read about how to be a good contributor, so I'm absolutely fine with the requirement to read it. ;)

I'm not sure about the other two lists, but in the Ukrainian list there are also sentences that do have a direct Dutch translation, so it seems to be just a list of all (or at least the first 200) Ukrainian sentences...

Anyway, I'll start linking my sentences to all the other sentences that they can be linked to first. :)

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TRANG TRANG April 12, 2010 April 12, 2010 at 11:41:53 PM UTC link Permalink

Ah right, I made a mistake for the Ukrainian sentences. Now it should be good.

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Dorenda Dorenda April 13, 2010 April 13, 2010 at 1:07:18 AM UTC link Permalink

That looks better. Thanks. :)

Dorenda Dorenda April 29, 2010 April 29, 2010 at 8:59:23 PM UTC link Permalink

I more or less finished translating those three lists. Could you make me another two lists with Russian and German sentences (or refill the existing lists with new sentences)? The Ukrainian list can be deleted.
Thanks. :)

sysko sysko April 12, 2010 April 12, 2010 at 12:59:42 PM UTC link Permalink

Yep it has already been requested (first by ourselves :p) we plan to have a panel to have advanced search option, to be able to search not only by requesting words, but by more option (not translated in X , translated by user Y etc... )

for the moment we're planning to migrate to an other server to make the website faster and more reactiv, but as a lot of people seems to want it, we will try to implemenent it ASAP

saeb saeb April 11, 2010 April 11, 2010 at 10:35:58 AM UTC link Permalink

Question...let's say you wanna check up on someone who's doing a lengthy task...in english you might say: "where did you reach?" or "where you at?"...sth along these lines...Now I'm curious, how would you say that in japanese in this situation?

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TRANG TRANG April 11, 2010 April 11, 2010 at 7:41:57 PM UTC link Permalink

You may have more chance asking this in other more populated forums if you want an answer ^^ We still don't have any native Japanese speakers hanging around here =(

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saeb saeb April 11, 2010 April 11, 2010 at 9:00:54 PM UTC link Permalink

yeah that...1 wk+ on 5 sites and no reply...tough world we're living in.

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blay_paul blay_paul April 11, 2010 April 11, 2010 at 11:22:14 PM UTC link Permalink

Well it's a bit of a vague question, with a large number of possible answers. To pick one ...

仕事はどこまで進んでいる?

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saeb saeb April 12, 2010 April 12, 2010 at 4:08:51 AM UTC link Permalink

yes, yes どこまで, where was that! thank you so much, you know if you were close by I would've sent you a piece of the cake we baked today :P.

But 進んでいる doesn't sound like sth 'cool' to say :P, anyway will look for that on my own :)

contour contour April 11, 2010 April 11, 2010 at 4:21:03 PM UTC link Permalink

The sentence view is broken now.

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Pharamp Pharamp April 11, 2010 April 11, 2010 at 4:23:38 PM UTC link Permalink

yes for me too :(

TRANG TRANG April 11, 2010 April 11, 2010 at 7:40:22 PM UTC link Permalink

I'm re-posting with my "real" account... I used by mistake my "test" account (tranglich) earlier.

So for the explaination, we were updating Tatoeba in order to integrate some bugfixes, but we hadn't really tested everything properly =/

I was thinking, perhaps some of you guys (not only contour and Pharamp, but anyone reading this) would be interested in being our beta testers, or as I prefer to call it "bug hunters".

Send me a PM if you are interested :)

blay_paul blay_paul April 10, 2010 April 10, 2010 at 7:16:47 PM UTC link Permalink

Notes on interface translations

Typo in translation item 497

This tool is in a very early stage, and we're looking forward people who can help us ameliorate the transcription by provindg IPA of non-converted characters or reporting mistakes.

Should be 'providing'.

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blay_paul blay_paul April 10, 2010 April 10, 2010 at 7:21:13 PM UTC link Permalink

Also (same item) should be "looking for people" not "looking forward people".

sysko sysko April 10, 2010 April 10, 2010 at 8:16:03 PM UTC link Permalink

ok thanks, that the correction will appear on next launchpad update