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Wall (5,553 threads)

CK
CK
23 days ago
** Stats - 2019-09-21 - Native Speaker Sentence Counts

http://tatoeba.byethost3.com/stats-190921.html

You can find out who the native speakers are for the languages you are studying.
Aiji
30 days ago
https://tatoeba.org/fra/user/profile/LINGUISTE

Toutes ses phrases me semblent avoir été écrites en mode singe intelligent. Beaucoup d'entre elles n'ont aucun sens. Malheureusement, comme à chaque fois, certaines d'entre elles sont correctes.

Je suggère de bloquer ces phrases pour éviter que des gens traduisent n'importe quoi.
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marafon
30 days ago - 30 days ago
+1
TRANG
28 days ago
Est-ce qu'il y a vraiment un problème à les laisser ouvertes aux traductions et laisser chaque contributeur décider par eux-même quelles sont les phrases qui méritent d'être traduites?

On n'a pas vraiment besoin de forcer les choses. À vue d'oeil, seule une minorité de ces phrases ont été traduites.

Il faudrait d'abord voir si des phrases qui n'ont aucun sens ont été traduites. Et si oui, il faudrait consulter les traducteurs pour avoir leur avis: est-ce qu'ils ont juste traduit en mode auto-pilote ou est-ce qu'ils ont traduit parce que la phrase originale leur a servi à quelque chose?
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Aiji
28 days ago
Oooh que oui, il y a un intérêt.
Je me suis occupé de milliers de phrases ophelines et de phrases clairement pas en français correct, et oui, il y a un intérêt. Je suis certain que si on demande l'avis d'AlanF_US, il sera d'accord avec moi.

Le problème c'est que des gens qui croient comprendre la phrase la traduisent dans ce qu'ils croient comprendre. Et comme souvent, ce ne sont pas des natifs français, ils pensent que des erreurs qui sonnent bien dans leur langue ne posent pas de problème.
Un exemple frappant serait par exemple « Je te serre ta main. » qui n'est clairement pas correct, mais qui se traduit tel quel dans beaucoup de langues.
Un autre problème sont toutes les phrases de Maxence par exemple, qui à l'inverse ont d'abord été traductions (horribles) de phrases espagnoles. Le problème surgit quand des traductions portugaises arrivent, parce que la phrase incorrect française fait sens telle quelle en portugais.

Et des exemples comme ça, y en aurait plein. Donc oui, forcer les choses ça peut avoir du bon. Par exemple, en s'arrangeant pour que si un doublon se fait fusionner qu'il appartienne à l'utilisateur qui n'est pas dans le rouge (ou le plus récent, ou autre), c'est juste une suggestion.
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CK
CK
27 days ago - 27 days ago
I don't read French, so this is from Google Translate.

The problem is that people who think they understand the sentence translate it into what they think they understand. And as often, they are not French natives, they think that errors that sound good in their language do not pose a problem.

Additional comment.

This is also one of the primary problems with non-native sentence contributions, which is one reason I keep trying to get members to contribute in their own native languages. We could likely drastically improve the quality of our corpus if all members would do so.
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soliloquist
27 days ago - 27 days ago
> This is also one of the primary problems with non-native sentence contributions,
> which is one reason I keep trying to get members to contribute in their own native
> languages. We could likely drastically improve the quality of our corpus if all
> members would do so.

This is true when one adds original sentences in their native language like you do, but not so true with translations. Awkward word-for-word translations are a huge problem, too. It's possible to filter out non-native or unowned sentences when searching, but such unnatural translations by native speakers are not so easy to avoid. We don't have an option to exclude sentences by particular users or sentences with particular tags.
AmarMecheri
26 days ago
Salut
J'ai déjà signalé la phrase « Tu pars sous ton nez. » ( que je trouve incohérente).
Mais je m'y suis arrêté, sans lire les phrases restantes.
AlanF_US
25 days ago - 25 days ago
The most useful thing you can do if you see bad sentences is to write comments on them. This accomplishes multiple things:

(1) It allows the author, or a corpus maintainer, to fix the sentence.
(2) It allows people to determine from the comments left on the author's sentences whether their sentences can be trusted in general.

I like to write comments in a form that indicates the current contents and the suggested rewording. This allows people to see easily whether the comment is still valid. For example:

My dog have fleas. -> My dog has fleas.

Such comments are quick and easy to write, especially with the use of the "copy sentence" button at the right of each sentence. Advanced contributors should also add the "@change" tag so that the sentence will be seen when corpus maintainers review all the sentences with that tag.

Of course, you don't have to go through all of a contributor's sentences. But if you see 10 bad sentences and write comments on them, someone who looks at the comments on that contributor's sentences will see the pattern.

The other piece of this approach, naturally, is that when you choose sentences to translate by an owner you are not already familiar with, you should look at the comments left on their sentences to see whether there are a lot of complaints on them.

If you leave comments on sentences, you give people a concrete basis for deciding not to translate sentences from that contributor (or for administrators to take some other action, though that is less likely). The comments will also persist and be searchable when someone checks the contributor's profile, whereas Wall messages eventually drop off the front page and become hard to find.
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CK
CK
25 days ago
It's a bit easier to copy and paste the correct sentence and also see the differences if both sentences are not on the same line.

So instead of ...
My dog have fleas. -> My dog has fleas.

I'd recommend this patten.
My dog have fleas. ->
My dog has fleas.

Or,...

FROM:
My dog have fleas.
TO:
My dog has fleas.
AmarMecheri
24 days ago - 24 days ago
@AllanF_US
I agree with your comment and thank you for writing this very helpful reminder:

... "The most useful thing you can do if you see bad sentences is to write comments on them. This accomplishes multiple things:

(1) It allows the author, or a corpus maintainer, to fix the sentence.
(2) It allows people to determine from the comments left on the author's sentences whether their sentences can be trusted in general.

I like to write comments in a form that indicates the current contents and the suggested rewording. This allows people to see easily whether the comment is still valid."

It's wonderful!

NB: Last but not least, it encourages non-English speaking contributors to improve their English and to allow them to explain (at least in the comments) the meaning of the sentences they write in their native languages that do not find competent translators (because they are considered as minor or infrequent since their speakers belong to linguistic minorities)?
TRANG
25 days ago
Ce que tu décris n'est pas vraiment un problème de mon point de vue.

Si un contributeur décide de traduire "Je te serre ta main", mais que la traduction est une phrase parfaitement correcte dans la langue cible, on corrige la originale phrase qui sonne faux et puis c'est tout. Même si la phrase originale n'était pas correcte, elle aura au moins inspirée à la création d'une phrase correcte, et il n'y a pas de mal à cela.

Certes, on peut se demander est-ce que le traducteur a vraiment compris la phrase ou non. Comment corriger la phrase en s'assurant qu'elle garde la même signification que les traductions? Dans certains cas, il faut discuter avec les traducteurs sur comment ils ont compris la phrase. Mais j'ai du mal à imaginer qu'il y ait beaucoup de cas complexes à ce point. Pour ton exemple, changer "Je te serre ta main" vers "Je te serre la main" ne va pas influencer en quoique ce soit les traductions.

Au pire, si c'est juste trop galère de décider comment corriger la phrase originale, on peut toujours la délier de ses traductions.

Je ne suis pas en train de dire que les phrases de LINGUISTE sont de bonne qualité et de grande utilité. Mais les bloquer ne résoud pas grand chose. Ça ne fait qu'imposer un point de vue, relativement subjectif, sur ce qu'est une "bonne phrase".

Si une phrase n'a absolument aucun sens et ne sert pas à grand chose, il est très improbable qu'elle soit traduite. Les gens préfèrent traduire des phrases qui leurs sont utiles, qui sont intéressantes et qui veulent dire quelque chose.

Si tu as une preuve que les phrases qui sonnent faux ont nettement plus de chance de générer des traductions qui sonnent faux, je comprendrais que tu veuilles empêcher la traduction de telles phrases. Mais selon moi ce n'est pas le cas. Des phrases parfaitement correctes ont autant de chances de générer des traductions qui sonnent faux. La variable principale, c'est le niveau de compétence du traducteur et non pas la qualité de la phrase originale.

Ton problème, j'ai l'impression, est plutôt que c'est frustrant de passer en revue les phrases d'un utlisateur qui n'a pas beaucoup de rigueur et n'a pas mis beaucoup d'effort dans la création de ses phrases. Et je comprends très bien. Mais je pense que c'est un problème qui d'une part se résoud un peu plus en amont, en limitant la quantité de phrases/traductions qu'un nouveau contributeur peut créer. Et d'autre part, en implémentant des filtres pour que chaque utilisateur puisse ignorer les phrases qui ne leurs plaisent pas selon des critères génériques.
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CK
CK
25 days ago - 25 days ago
This search will find over 900 of his sentences that do not yet have translations.

https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...=&sort=created

I think that if a native French speaker would have the time to at least go through these and delete the bad ones, it would help the project a lot. It would help a lot, too, if at the same time an OK rating would be added to the good sentences.

It's a lot more difficult to deal with bad sentences once they are linked to other sentences, so doing this now would likely avoid a lot of hassle.
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TRANG
25 days ago
You're suggesting that we take the easy way. But in this case, I don't think the easy way is the best way.

I, personally, do not mind if someone takes the liberty to delete some of these sentences because I, personally, do not care about them. But by principle, I would have zero arguments to defend us on why we have deleted them. The deletions would be a personal, subjective choice.

Yes, it takes more effort to deal with bad sentences that have been linked, rather than deleting them before they get to be linked. But it can be a worthwhile effort:

1) We get to practice improving sentences. Native speakers could learn things about their own language, or sharpen their literary skills, by doing this exercise.
2) We can explain to those who added the translations about why it was a bad sentence and maybe they can learn something out of it and will choose more wisely their next sentences to translate.
3) It can be an eye-opener on what really is a good or bad sentence.
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CK
CK
25 days ago
I assume from your response that these French sentences are probably a lot better than the original message implied, and that they are the kind of sentences that you yourself might use. I had sort of figured that maybe these were more of those bot-created-type of sentences that have come from several usernames contributing French sentences, so I thought that it would be better to quickly eliminate the non-translated bad ones before they caused any more problems. The ones that are already linked to other sentences would take a little more time to take care of.
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TRANG
24 days ago
I have not proofread those sentences and I have no idea how bad they really are. Some might be bad beyond repair. But mostly, I was questioning the argument that "it's a lot more difficult to deal with bad sentences once they are linked to other sentences".

Because to me, if a sentence has no sense and no value, it's very unlikely that it will be translated. If it has been translated (by a sentient, intelligent being), then it may not be bad enough to be deleted and it's worth taking the time to figure it out.
AmarMecheri
24 days ago
@CK
Have you thought about Francophones (non-French) whose French was (and still is) their working language throughout their working life (and some of whom speak French better than their mother tongue and sometimes better than some real French speakers)? Do you consider them as native speakers?
Friendly yours. AmarMecheri
LanguageExpert
2019-09-06 05:17
It looks like there's been an unfortunate problem with the search engine here on Tatoeba. I was looking at all the sentences here on Tatoeba for Cantonese, and a lot of the sentences on the page are missing.

https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...ne/indifferent
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LanguageExpert
2019-09-07 00:58
Sorry. I totally missed that message. Thank you for pointing that out. Hope the problem gets fixed soon. :)
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TRANG
2019-09-09 21:05
Your problem might have been misinterpreted.

If you are talking about the limitation to 1000 sentences on the "Browse by language" page, this is intentional.

Cf. https://github.com/Tatoeba/tato...ment-476564743

Even when the search gets fixed, the page will still be limited to 1000 sentences for optimization reasons. If you were using this page in a way that required more than 1000 sentences, then I invite you to describe your use case so that we can re-consider this limitation.
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CK
CK
2019-09-10 03:05
I think you must have been talking about the search engine problem, but if not, instead of a limit of 1,000 Cantonese sentences, you can use the advanced search to give you an additional 1,000 Cantonese sentences by searching for the oldest sentences.

This is the link you posted.
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...ne/indifferent
The newest 1,000 of the 5752 Cantonese sentences

This link will give you an additional 1,000.
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...rt_reverse=yes
The oldest 1,000 of the 5752 Cantonese sentences


Though there will be some duplication using the following links, you may also be able to browse some sentences that aren't on the above 2 links by using these.

https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...io=&sort=words
The shortest 1,000 of the 5752 Cantonese sentences

https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...rt_reverse=yes
The longest 1,000 of the 5752 Cantonese sentences

Additionally, you can play around with "audio" and "no audio" and other options.
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LanguageExpert
2019-09-10 22:03 - 2019-09-10 22:04
Yes, the limitation of 1000 sentences was exactly what I was talking about. Thank you so much for your help! Have a great day!
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CK
CK
2019-09-11 02:30
You can download 3233 Cantonese - English sentence pairs from here.

http://www.manythings.org/anki/

These are all the English sentences on List 907 that are linked to Cantonese sentences by native speakers.

List 907 = http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentence...s/show/907/und
Proofread Good English Sentences That CK Uses on His Projects
Mecamute
25 days ago - 25 days ago
Can we at least have a way to access all the sentences? Like an external link or something.
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CK
CK
25 days ago
You can download all the sentences from here.
https://tatoeba.org/eng/downloads
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Mecamute
25 days ago
Thank you!!!
Ricardo14
27 days ago
¡Feliz cumpleaños, Rocío (Shishir)!
Feliz aniversário!
Joyeux anniversaire !
Happy birthday!

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Pfirsichbaeumchen
27 days ago
Herzlichen Glückwunsch zum Geburtstag, Rocío (@Shishir)!
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marafon
27 days ago
¡Feliz cumpleaños, Rocío!
Amastan
27 days ago
Amulli ameggaz a Rocío :-)
MacGyver
28 days ago - 28 days ago
I was trying to comment on a sentence:

The request has been black-holed
Error: The requested address '/eng/sentence_comments/save' was not found on this server.
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Thanuir
28 days ago
I got this some days ago, probably on Friday. Reloading the page helped.
alemfarid
28 days ago
Taqbaylit ur yelli win ara ttyeṛẓen, tidet tban am tafukt deg geni tebɣam neɣ tugim!! nekni nqeddec s wul macci s ddɣel. Tanemmirt
PaulP
2019-09-13 07:53
Tatoeba app

In the Tatoeba group on Facebook, someone asked „The Tatoeba app is not working, right?”. A few persons (also me) answered that there is no Tatoeba app, but then the person published a screen shot of the app in Google Play.

Is this app maybe a project that has never been finished? Would it be better to delete it from Google Play (in the App Store of Apple it does not exist, as far as I can see).

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deniko
2019-09-13 09:01
This one?

https://play.google.com/store/a...Tatoeba.Mobile

It explicitly states it's not an official application, but they do use the same logo as Tatoeba which is probably not very ethical if it's unofficial, I dunno.

This person seems to be the creator:

https://github.com/sferhah

TRANG
28 days ago
I confirm that there is no Tatoeba app. No official ones at least. The day we have an official app, it will be mentioned in the footer of the website.
CK
CK
29 days ago
We now have 630,060 sentences with audio files, up 13,001 since August 8, 2019.

https://tatoeba.org/audio/index

Here are the recent contributors' lists

fjay69 (rus)
https://tatoeba.org/sentences_lists/show/9282/und

samir_t (kab)
https://tatoeba.org/sentences_lists/show/8328/und

CK (eng)
https://tatoeba.org/sentences_lists/show/4000/und


If you would be willing to record audio files in your own native langauge, please see http://bit.ly/shtooka .

The previous audio stats announcement is at https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/sh...#message_32391 .


You can use the following advanced search to see a random selection from the 314,195 sentences that have indirect or direct links to other sentences with audio.

https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...es&sort=random
bandeirante
2019-09-11 09:15
Kedves magyar nyelvvel dolgozó kollégák/kolleginák!

Mindenkinek köszönöm a támogatást a corpus maintainer státuszhoz, amit megkaptam! Igyekszem rászolgálni a bizalomra, és a pontosság, a tolerancia és a szőrszálhasogatás-mentesség (ha van egyáltalán ilyen szó) jegyében végezni a teendőimet.
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Pandaa
2019-09-11 16:51
@jegaevi
@bandeirante

Gratulálok mindkettőtöknek a kiosztott címekhez!

A pár hete még kissé inaktív, de most ismét elemükben levő szerkesztőknek üdvözletemet küldöm!


Három c.m., egy a.m. és egy maroknyi aktív tag. Alakul ez a magyar korpusz. :)
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maaster
2019-09-11 19:44
Csatlakozom az előttem felszólalóhoz.
pernilla8
2019-09-12 16:39
@jegaevi, @bandeirante

Gratulálok! :)
felvideki
2019-09-11 21:47
@jegaevi, @bandeirante

Gratulálok mindkettőtöknek és egyúttal további hasznos időtöltést kívánok Nektek itt a Tatoeba-n.