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Thanuir's messages on the Wall (total 46)

Thanuir
3 days ago
If someone is active on Forvo, then it might also be fruitful to try developing cooperation with them. The website mostly contains pronunciations of words, but also some sentences. There are often several pronunciations and the region of the speaker is displayed.
Thanuir
7 days ago
Currently there exists sentence-specific tags, but nothing word-specific, as far as I know.
Thanuir
10 days ago
Are native speakers adopting them? I adopted all but two Finnish sentences, and I am uncertain about the correctness of those two, but there are about 50 thousand unadopted English sentences, while only 1000 French ones; checking some other languages, this seems to depend mostly on whether anyone has taken the time to go through and adopt the sentences recently.

Maybe some English natives would like to start checking and adopting the English sentences and others should do the same in their native languages, if there is a large amount of sentences without owners. It would make this approach a lot more encouraging.
Thanuir
14 days ago
Welcome.

The site is a volunteer effort, so it has precisely the content someone has happened to add. It seems nobody has added Arabic sentences with voice. The process for adding sentences with voice is more involved than much of other contribution.

Good ways to get contributing to Tatoeba are:

1. Translate sentences to your native language. You can find sentences in a language not translated to another at https://tatoeba.org/fin/activit...late_sentences

2. Adding sentences in your native language.
You can see English vocabulary people are interested in at https://tatoeba.org/fin/Vocabul..._sentences/eng .
According to your profile you are interested in fitness, so you might want to check if fitness vocabulary is well covered, and if not, add sentences related to that.

Thanuir
18 days ago
I'll add the following easy and less radical things to do:

1. Add sentences with varied names of people and places. The names need not be from your native language even when the sentence is.
2. Add other sentences characteristic of less present cultures - food, clothes, politics, idioms, nature, etc. The culture need not match the language.
3. When you see sentences that reflect less represented cultures in other languages, translate them.
4. When you see someone discouraging others from adding sentences with varied names, for example, reply with a list of reasons why adding varied names is good and desirable.
Thanuir
19 days ago - 19 days ago
My comment was about Tatoeba in particular, in case that was not clear.

I do not know enough about how policy on Tatoeba is settled to comment on that. I would not oppose your suggestion, if it was up to me.

Below is a comment, slightly edited, I left on a sentence when the contributor was discouraged from adding a sentence with non-standard name. Maybe you find it useful when you see this kind of counterproductive behaviour:

...

1. I would not discourage people from contributing, even if they contribute sentences that fit a pattern. They will probably also contribute other things.

2. Writings names in different scripts is non-trivial and language-dependent. The famous mathematician Tikhonov, Tihonov, Tychonoff, etc., and the philosopher Plato or Platon.

3. Declension of names is non-trivial in some languages. For example, in Finnish, Tomi-Tomin-Tomilla, Johannes-Johanneksen-Johanneksella. As such, having different names adds actual linguistic content. This tends to be especially true of foreign names.

4. It is most natural to write sentences that use names of the culture in question.

5. If there would be default names, which culture would they be from? I would prefer Väinö and Aino, personally, as they are good and traditional names with ties to Finnish mythology. I am sure everyone else would have different favourites

6. Different names suggest different genders in different languages. Kari is male in Finland and female in Norway, for example, by default.

7. It takes a lot of effort to police patterns. One can use the same to add new sentences and to translate sentences instead. Furthermore, this would be something one would have to teach most contributors one-by-one. Adding such requirements for contributing is not a good idea.

So: Several such sentences are not needed, but they also do not cause harm. It would take work and be highly impolite to police them. Unifying names would, in general, lead to loss of linguistically relevant content.
Thanuir
19 days ago
Tag synonyms would be a potential way of doing this, since there are at the moment tags "mathematics", "maths" and probably also "math", and they are not translations, but still redundant. I am sure other similar situations exist.

On the downside, having tag synonyms or translations would create a need to discuss them more carefully and decide which tags are actually synonyms and which are not; tags like "seven syllables" would be a problem, as well as concepts which do not translate one-to-one between languages.
Thanuir
19 days ago
I agree about decolonization.

Some constructive things to do:

1. Add sentences with varied names of people and places.
2. Add other sentences characteristic of less present cultures - food, clothes, politics, idioms, nature, etc.
3. When you see such sentences in other languages, translate them.
4. When you see someone discouraging others from adding sentences with varied names, for example, reply with a list of reasons why adding varied names is good and desirable.

Tatoeba is a volunteer effort, so the best way of creating change is to simply do it. It is a pity that certain cultures dominate the website, but I do not see a constructive way of preventing that. The Tom, Mary and Boston -sentences do add value to the website, so they should not be discouraged, either.
Thanuir
21 days ago
I agree: precise feedback and suggestions are superior and should be encouraged.
Thanuir
23 days ago
More specialist vocabulary would be extremely useful. Mathematics vocabulary is the most useful for me, and there is a decent amount of relevant sentences, but this is probably a happy accident more than a trend. For many languages it is pretty easy to figure out the common vocabulary, but the more specialized, the harder it becomes.

Translating these sentences is also tricky, since it needs someone proficient with at least two languages and with the field in question.

...

Process-wise, it would be nice to have sentences in smaller languages translated with some frequency. As is, the sentences more peculiar to such languages and cultures can easily remain untranslated for very long times, for understandable reasons. But still, it would be nice if this was not the case.
Thanuir
2019-02-18 11:44
I believe transifex https://www.transifex.com/tatoeba/tatoeba_website/ is the correct place to translate it, but I have never used it.
Thanuir
2019-02-16 13:17
If I have marked a sentence and it has been since removed, the sentence is shown with mark as outdated; for example https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/7711907.

This is okay, but the problem is that such sentences are still visible in my collection of outdated markings. As the collection is a good place to check if one should change those ratings, it would be good for the ratings of removed sentences to not be there.

Deleted sentences could also be removed from the other lists of ratings, but this is not as important.
Thanuir
2019-02-13 15:27
I was not here, then, but the default answer to these kinds of questions is that someone stopped doing it and nobody continued. Supposing there was no big drama around it, there is very little stopping an interested person, such as you, from restarting an activity you found useful.

I hope someone tells if there was a more specific problem that caused the stopping.
Thanuir
2019-02-06 14:46
The interface remains in Finnish for me.
Thanuir
2019-01-31 17:19
To me, this sounds like an ad hoc decision based on the feature of many (maybe all?) European languages that adding the exclamation mark is a trivial thing. I am not sure this is true of every language.

For Finnish, when adding a question mark to a statement, one often does more: "True. True?" could be "Totta. Tottako?" (not good sentences, but I hope you get the point). This might be true of structures related to the exclamation mark in some languages.

This reminds me of the issue of using standardized names of people or cities. Names are inflected (I hope this is the right word; taivuttaa) in Finnish, and especially for foreign names this is non-trivial, so using standardized names would be a loss.

I am generally against almost all links within a language, for the reasons mentioned earlier; I understand I might be in the minority here, so I do not remove those links, most of the time. But when posing the question I was more interested in links between languages, and I still am.

Different languages use the full stop and the exclamation mark in slightly different contexts, which is not communicated at all if sentences with and without exclamation marks are linked indiscriminately. So I suggest not linking phrases across languages where one has a full stop and the other has an exclamation mark without being familiar with the use of the symbols in both. One might have broader use of a symbol than the other, for example.
Thanuir
2019-01-31 08:05
Personally, I link sentences if and only if their meanings overlap in at least one situation where I cannot find a strictly better translation, or where they are close enough and a strictly better translation is not yet in Tatoeba.

For sentences in the same language, this is usually not the case, as different words or punctuation marks suggest or emphasize different things, most of the time.

So "Hei." and "Hei!" are not good translations of each other, since one is a more excited than the other. The sentence itself is its best translation; no need to link them.
On the other hand, the words "ekvivalentti" and "yhtäpitävä" have precisely the same meaning in mathematical Finnish, so in any such sentence, one can be replaced by the other while conserving the meaning. So such sentences could be made synonyms. (One would still be communicating a little bit about one's usage of foreign versus more Finnish words, which is why I do not make them synonyms myself, but I would not object to someone else doing it or remove the links. Communicating that difference is not a big deal in modern Finland.)

Examples of why a single situation where two sentences have the same meaning is not a sufficient grounds for linking them:
Context: A dead animal was found in a region where lion is the only great cat around. "It was killed by a lion." and "It was killed by a great cat." would be essentially the same in that context, yet they should not be made synonyms.
Context: Mathematics research within function theory (i.e. complex analysis). "But wait, the function is differentiable." and "But wait, the function is analytic." have precisely the same meaning, since differentiable complex functions are also analytic. But making these sentences synonyms would be a mistake, since in many other contexts they have a crucially different meaning.

Likewise, if you are excited about meeting someone, you might say "God morgen!", and if you are feeling less energetic, maybe you would say "God morgen.". There certainly exists a situation between those two where they are interchangeable. But still, most of the time, the tone of the greeting makes a difference for the meaning and the exclamation mark suggests the tone.
Thanuir
2019-01-29 13:24
I disagree with replacing all exclamation marks with full stops, as the exclamation mark is part of many languages and communicates meaning. There are valid sentences with exclamation marks.

I agree that it is rarely useful in formal writing (factorials aside), but that does not seem relevant for Tatoeba.
Thanuir
2019-01-29 07:20
Looking into it a bit more, the Wikipedia page is useful, as it often is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclamation_mark .

There are languages without an exclamation mark (old European languages, presumably many non-European languages unless they all have adopted it, which I doubt) and it is used in different ways in different languages. Communicating these differences is only possible if the sentences are not made synonyms unless the meanings do overlap.

As such, it seems a good idea to not link for example "Hey." and "Hey!", because if they are not linked, it is meaningful to link a word in another language to both of them, if that language for example does not use the exclamation mark at all or uses it a lot or uses it very rarely, when compared to English. These distinctions are lost if all sentences are linked irrespective of punctuation.
Thanuir
2019-01-28 06:48
What are best practices for linking similar sentences that only differ in punctuation?

Particularly common variant is expressions like "Hello!" and "Hello."; to me, they have different meanings as symbolized by the exclamation mark or the full stop.

Should these be linked as synonyms or not?

The same question happens across languages; should one link "Hei." only with "Hello." or also with "Hello!"?

(The exclamation mark has slightly different uses in different languages, but in many cases the meaning seems to be the same.)
Thanuir
2019-01-27 14:27
I tried with some other words I already have in the vocabulary and this seems to be true. Thanks.