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JeroenHoek JeroenHoek February 10, 2010 February 10, 2010 at 9:02:32 PM UTC link Permalink

Here's a nice user-test for the system:

Sentence nº164914 was a Japanese sentence I wanted to edit. I edited its English translation, which went well, but because tatoeba.org responded too slow I accidentally added a new Japanese sentence (nº361150) instead of amending nº164914. I can't delete translations, so I just changed that old Japanese one to a Dutch translation of the sentence. Meanwhile, someone else added a German translation too! :)

Questions:
* What happens to the indices for the former Japanese sentence?
* Should user be able to do this?

As a developer I suspect that changing languages on an existing (Japanese) sentence is bound to cause issues, but as a user it makes perfect sense to solve the issue I ran into. Your thoughts?

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blay_paul blay_paul February 10, 2010 February 10, 2010 at 10:36:27 PM UTC link Permalink

> What happens to the indices for the former Japanese sentence?

It gets left behind. I manually copied it to the new sentence in this case, but Trang will need to clear up things. I'm not sure if I can delete index entries.

> Should user be able to do this?

It's probably a bad idea.

Suppose you have

A(English) translates to B(Japanese) translates to C(German)

If you change the Japanese to a new, Dutch, sentence you get

A(English) translates to B(Dutch) (doesn't really) translates to C(German)

Because C is really the translation of the (vanished) Japanese sentence not the (new) Dutch sentence.

I think it would have been best to have left the Japanese duplicate and added a "Please delete me" comment.

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JeroenHoek JeroenHoek February 11, 2010 February 11, 2010 at 10:00:20 AM UTC link Permalink

> I think it would have been best to have left the Japanese duplicate and added a "Please delete me" comment.

Agreed. (Since Tatoeba is in beta, I try to actively break things by using it from a novice user's perspective.)

Trang:
Perhaps "nominate for deletion" could be added as explicit functionality? A way for user's to flag a sentence as undesirable (with optional comment). In time the comment system will become hard to monitor for "delete me" type messages.

TRANG TRANG February 11, 2010 February 11, 2010 at 6:51:38 PM UTC link Permalink

> What happens to the indices for the former Japanese sentence?

As Paul said, it gets left behind. We don't have (yet) strong mechanisms that would help keep the database consistent.

> Should user be able to do this?

No, they shouldn't. Ideally, there should be guidelines (which I'm hoping to be able to write by the end of the month) to help users understand better how things work and how they can contribute in a way that doesn't give us (developers) more work than we already have ^^'
I wrote down some of the ideas in my comment here : http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/126

> Perhaps "nominate for deletion" could be added as explicit functionality?

Yes, in general, we could have various status for a sentence. Actually in the previous version of Tatoeba we used to have that, but I haven't re-implemented it. A sentence could be marked as "to delete", "checked" or "locked" (and perhaps other things, I don't remember). When a sentence was checked, it meant you could rely on it for not having mistakes. When it was locked, no one could edit it anymore.

But this is not urgent compared to other things we have to do. My priority at the moment is to make sure that people understand clearly that when they translate, they have to translate from the sentence written in big letters. I'm pretty sure that very often, people are adding translations to a Japanese sentence when they were actually translating from the English sentence.
We also have to enable people to link and unlink sentences. There are many sentences that are linked to each other without being translations of each other, and there are many sentences that could be translations of each other but are not linked to each other.

Once all of that is settled, and people understand that they have to view the corpus as a GRAPH and not a table, it will be less likely that they behave in a way that we don't want them to behave, like what you did. And perhaps "nominate for deletion" will not be *that* useful because instead of deleting, you could just edit your sentence into whatever you want and unlink it from any sentence it was linked to.

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JeroenHoek JeroenHoek February 11, 2010 February 11, 2010 at 7:20:31 PM UTC link Permalink

Educating users is desirable of course, but opportunistic contributors will make mistakes. In the case of incidental contributions, not being able to delete an entry that should not have been created, nor nominate it for deletion is likely to frustrate the user. An alternative may be to offer a grace period for sentences you created yourself, being able to delete them within a certain period as long as they are not linked to by other new sentences.

On the topic of linking translations: is it possible to link a sentence to multiple sentences? There are many cases where the translated sentences actually do function as proper translations of each other, as well the sentence they are linked to.

Visualizing the graph is challenging within the confines of HTML/CSS, good luck there. Further indenting of the non-direct translations might help.