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cueyayotl
2018-10-05 10:19 - 2018-10-07 08:13
(EDIT: I have NOT made the final call to change the Kabyle flag; my preliminary decision was made on the information I had gathered from the wall and my own research – The leader of the MAK movement Ferhat Mehenni himself seems to not have a problem with my Flag#3 here [https://i.ytimg.com/vi/e2zSyotm...sdefault.jpg]: I wonder if any Kabyle contributors do? I wonder if it would make for the best language icon for Kabyle?
It is the holidays here, so I may be slow in replying. However I AM reading all comments. My comment to avoid sending me private messages was a bluff – you CAN, and I knew many people WOULD – I was just hoping that people would organize their thoughts better if they knew I would be critical of them.)

After reading EVERYTHING on the wall and deliberating, my decision on the Kabyle/Berber language icon (flag) is that it will be changed to one of the following:
1) White icon with KAB (https://i.imgur.com/DuQvept.png)
2) Berber icon with KAB (https://i.imgur.com/ZK5s2jk.png)
3) MessDjaaf's idea with KAB (https://i.imgur.com/1TBtnsb.png)
(I didn't want to add colors for fear of misinterpretation of their meaning, but I'll let users here decide. There were other suggestions, but the designs were much too complex for our 30x20pixel icons)
I am leaning towards number 2, though if anyone has any reason why any of the others are better, please let me know (HERE ON THE WALL: PRIVATE MESSAGES ON THE MATTER WILL BE IGNORED).

I remark that Kabyle DOES have the ISO 639-3 code KAB and so will not be removed as a language, but neither will Berber, which does not have such a code, but was added before having an ISO code became a requirement here on the Tatoeba Project. NOTE: Kabyle sentences under the Berber language icon are not to be touched without the author's permission or that of any Corpus Maintainer or Admin – leave Amastan's sentences alone.

As a purely linguistic site, Tatoeba has no interest in politics, so discussion on the legitimacy of the present flag as a language icon representative of the Kabyle language is irrelevant, despite how much it has been disputed on the wall.

I need to make the important note that the criteria for which we are to base all decisions here on Tatoeba should be self-preservation: which choice will bring more users, sentences and quality to the site, or, which choice will be the least harmful to the site?

For example, if I were absolutely convinced that replacing the English language icon with a US Confederate flag would increase the rate at which quality sentences are added to the English language corpus in the long-run (for whatever reason – despite having other users object to the new icon), then I would have no problem changing the icon, no matter how politically nefarious it may be in the eyes of others.

As this pertains to the Kabyle language icon debate: I want users to continue to contribute to the Kabyle language corpus. It is not that I prefer a divide between Kabyle people and other Berber ethnicities, but quite the opposite – I would personally like Kabyle people to embrace their Kabyle identity, while also embracing their larger Berber ethnicity and promoting brotherhood between groups disjointed by politics and history.

Linguistically, the Kabyle language is very different from other Berber languages, and as many international linguistic authorities do, we want to maintain separate corpuses for each of the Berber languages, and allow search results in 'Berber' to reveal sentences in each and every Berber language corpus as well as the main 'Berber' corpus as well (I believe this is in the works right now).

I have been assured by most of the users adding sentences in 'Kabyle' that they are apolitical, which I would really like to believe. This would imply that they are understanding and sensible individuals: the kind crucial to our project. Changing the flag will not affect their contributions and desire to further the development of their language. But, we will lose some of our members, and many new potential ones.

On the other hand, if we were to keep our flag as is, I doubt that people like Amastan (the main contributor to any Berber language corpus) would stop contributing to our site, though our Kabyle contributors would stay as they are. On the surface, it may seem like the more sensible thing to do, in terms of the development of Tatoeba, even if there are quarrels on the wall. However, by not changing the flag, it is hard to gauge how many people will visit our site, see the flag, and not create an account (there's evidence that this has already happened). Moreover, if this flag is actually banned in Algeria, anyone there contributing to the Kabyle corpus with the flag as the language icon faces the risk of legal repercussions; further reducing our site's numbers.

To comments about Tatoeba making the 'mistake' of using flags as language icons: icons need to be clear indicators of what language the sentences are in, and simply having language icons with the ISO 639-3 codes in them will be confusing to users, and not aesthetically appealing, lowering the probability that a person randomly browsing the site will create an account.

So, in the hopes of doing what is best for Tatoeba and the Berber/Kabyle corpuses in the long-run, I'm going to have to change the Kabyle language icon, possibly sacrificing some users and many sentences, but hopefully wounds will heal quickly, and the wonderful members that choose to stay despite this can help develop the Berber corpora to promote literacy among the Berber and outsiders learning these beautiful languages.

- Cueyāyōtl
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Amastan
2018-10-05 11:23
Cueyayotl: Thank you very much for your suggestions. I am glad that Tatoeba has at last agreed to remove the political flag. I would like to congratulate the community for its spirit of common sense, wisdom, mutual respect and dialogue.




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Igider
2018-10-06 09:15
Who are you to choose my flag ?
Igider
2018-10-06 09:35
@Amestan


Because sir does not like my flag, so I have to change it to please him? But by what right? Who allows you to choose my flag for me? Who are you exactly?


Oh my god, please protect us from hateful and manipulative people, there are everywhere!
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OsoHombre
2018-10-06 09:53
Amastan,

They are apparently trying to provoke you and drag you into a fight that would smear your reputation as a Tamazight-language activist. You no longer have to reply to their provocative messages. Everyone has seen now how mean and politicized they are. Everyone has also seen how delusional they are and how important they are trying to make their movement and its flag look, yet they are still insignificant. Just avoid wasting your time replying them.

Everything is over now. Tatoeba has at last agreed to change the flag, much to the satisfaction and the joy of all the present contributors who don't want the MAK flag and the other potential contributors that could join the website in the future. The decision has been taken. There is no possible way back especially after all this evil political campaigning and threats to leave the website and even threats to sue the website. They have lost the battle. Congratulations to all those who supported the flag change. Just don't waste your time and get back to your work. I know you still have many useful things to do and you have my full support.
Amazigh_Bedar
2018-10-05 11:33
Sorry but it's not a wise decision at all.
Please do not change the Kabyle flag. Our team is apotilitic.
These people who ask you to change the Kabyle flags contribute for other languages. We have a different vision with them. We, we think that Kabyle is a language, but they consider it as a dialect.
If you change the flag, then you want to ban the Kabyle team on tatoeba. you want to discourage them to stop their work.
We did a good job: 25000 sentences and 6500 audio sentences in just two months.
So, please leave the flag and do not demote our team that wants to go further.
If the flag does not belong, we will not contribute. We work well because it's our flag and our language.
I ask the tatoeba admins to keep the flag and the Kabyle language.
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cueyayotl
2018-10-05 11:56
@Amazigh_Bedar

I suppose I didn't make some points clear in my post, so I will clarify.

>>>we think that Kabyle is a language, but they consider it as a dialect.

We, here at Tatoeba, see any speech variety with an ISO 639-3 code attributed to it as a language. So for us here too, Kabyle is a proper language.

>>>Our team is apotilitic...

The group of individual members here on Tatoeba to which you refer to as a 'team' is apolitical, so then you all should be behind my decision, because you do not care about the politics of a simple language icon.

>>>If you change the flag, then you want to ban the Kabyle team on tatoeba. you want to discourage them to stop their work.

I, or rather we, want to do no such thing. We welcome you, our brothers from Northern Africa, to continue doing the amazing work you are doing, which is extremely important to the 'literacy of [Kabyle and other Berber peoples, as well as] outsiders learning these beautiful languages.

>>>If the flag does not belong, we will not contribute. We work well because it's our flag and our language.

Then we, and online development of Kabyle will suffer a loss. I hope that you and the group of people you work together with are able to put aside differences to continue your important work with us. It would be very unfortunate to lose you all as members of OUR team – the Tatoeba Project Team of over 40,000 members

>>>I ask the tatoeba admins to keep the flag and the Kabyle language.

The Kabyle language will always remain here for you to come and contribute – you are always welcome here.
MessDjaaf
2018-10-05 13:38 - 2018-10-05 14:01
Amazigh_Bedar, you lost the flag war because you spread so much lies on Tatoeba and Facebook. You thought that all people were stupid to believe your lies. You never thought that one day your lies will crumble like a sand castle.
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alemfarid
2018-10-05 19:07
you are a super unknown in the world of localization ,why do you keep on attacking us and our work on facebook and now on Tatoeba?who are you to come and denigrate us?
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MessDjaaf
2018-10-05 20:30 - 2018-10-05 20:31
Once more, I am / we are not attacking your WORK, but the flag you put as an identity symbol of Kabyle. That's the problem.
You deliberately keep liying and distorting our deeds and speech to deceive Tatoeba admins. But know that they can't be deceived. They are not immature children.
Igider
2018-10-06 09:15
@MessDjaaf

Who are you to choose my flag ?
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Igider
2018-10-06 09:34
@MessDjaaf

Because sir does not like my flag, so I have to change it to please him? But by what right? Who allows you to choose my flag for me? Who are you exactly?


Oh my god, please protect us from hateful and manipulative people, there are everywhere!
belkacem77
2018-10-05 12:24
If the Kabyle flag will be dropped, we will move away from Tatoeba with all our production. We consider this as a seggregation.


I invite people working on the Kabyle corpora to prepare themselves to move to another host. Kabyle diaspora from the USA is aware about this attack from Algerians hating Kabyle and is ready to help us to host our corpora outside Taoeba official website and in the meantime, they are getting in touch with lawyers to discuss this issue that can be considered as a racism act.


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Meksems
2018-10-05 12:44
The flag represents me as I am, I am Kabyle.
This is just weird, really. HOW CAN IT BE POSSIBLE THAT 2 guys that don't even contribute to a LANGUAGE corpora could just like that change the flag of another language. It's absurd.
I can't understand really.
Can I change as a Kabyle contributor the flag of another language ? Impossible. Because I don't care first of all, and I have a moral duty to respect other teams' choices.
If the Kabyle flag is removed, I will just remove all my audios files and all my sentences immediately. The Kabyle team will do so.
Amastan
2018-10-05 13:36
Belkacem77: Racism act? Lawyers? Why not raising the issue to the Security Council of the United Nations?

Tatoeba: Have you seen how dangerous these people could be? Aren't they a political group of separatists, after all?

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Amastan
2018-10-05 13:58
About what Belkacem77 wrote:
>>>> Kabyle diaspora from the USA is aware about this attack from Algerians hating Kabyle and is ready to help us to host our corpora outside Taoeba official website and in the meantime,

Dear Tatoebans,

Have you noticed how he's blatantly making things political? Cheap doublespeak. Have you noticed how he claims that there are "people from Algeria" hating Kabyles? In their hate campaign on Facebook, some of them even claim that the Algerian intelligence service is behind this. Such cheap and laughable statements. Hahahaha...

In fact, this is one of the tactics used by this cheap racist separatist movement: victim playing or self-victimisation to draw attention and sympathy. Political hysteria and paranoia to pass themselves out as the victims. Racists who accuse their victims of racism. Victimisers that accuse their victims of victimising them. Cheap Orwellian doublespeak.


belkacem77
2018-10-05 14:02
Yes we will raise an issue since we respects all languages and nations and want to be also respected. We reject racism against people, religions, languages, sexual orientations..... and then we can't accept racism against us or against others.

Tatoeba should reject racism, and should stay away from politics and religion and should encourage minor languages such Kabyle.

Again, I can't understand your hatred against us. It's an illness and you can heal it.
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Amastan
2018-10-05 14:08 - 2018-10-05 15:39
Message edited due to an error in my reading of Belkacem77's message:

He said "Tatoeba should reject racism" and, as I was reading quickly, I misread it as "Tatoeba should reject Islam."

My bad. It was an error. No wonder one would make errors in such a mayhem.
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belkacem77
2018-10-05 14:12
@Amastan

You are crazy? Who told Taotoeba should reject religions? You're paranoid. But Tatoeba should stay out of religions. No proselytizing, no violence, no politics, no racism.
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Amastan
2018-10-05 15:40
Belkacem77: It was an error. I misread your message. My bad. It's normal to be confused in such a mayhem. But absolutely no sympathies to the MAK movement.
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belkacem77
2018-10-05 15:55
@Amastan

Look, as I told you, you are paranoid. You are seeing us as enemies, enemies of islam, and sometime qualifying us as islamists .... I think you have something wrong within you and I'm afraid for your, for your health.

Hatred and racism lead people to violence, problems with healthcare. You should take some rest, open your mind and understand that the earth is a set of colors.

Imagine that Tatoeba is like rainbow shining on the Sky, each color is a language and eah arc is people speaking that language. Imagine that this rainbow will cover all the sky and visible from everywhere from the earth, and believe me you live happy, longer and without health problems.

Love and openess is the key.

Good luck.
MessDjaaf
2018-10-05 13:43
There will always be Kabyle contributors on Tatoeba. Myself I can replace 200 members of your team by redoubling my efforts to put online 50 good sentences a day. So, do not worry, Tatoeba's admins, keep your wise decision.
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belkacem77
2018-10-05 14:07
And that's your mission? Push the kabyle contributors out of Tatoeba? Replace them to do what you want? and delete the kab language?
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MessDjaaf
2018-10-05 15:23
We do not aim at removing the Kabyle language from Tatoeba and you know it. As soon as the MAK flag is removed, we will come back to our prviously opened account or we will open a new one to continue contributing with Kabyle sentences ......... that you can use in your projects.
Amastan
2018-10-05 15:42 - 2018-10-05 15:46
Delete Kabyle.... hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.... Again, who said that? Did you say that, MessDjaaf? Did you say it Cueyayotl? Self-victimization to justify abuse, to accuse others of what they didn't do. Same good old tactic.
alemfarid
2018-10-05 19:15
You will do nothing because you came to Tatoeba to destroy our work and go elsewhere to hunt us down relentlessly.
Amastan
2018-10-05 13:52
To Tatoeba: From a small linguistic argument to an argument over a language flag, and here we are with a "major" political incident and "legal issues." Have you seen how dangerous these people could be? They have been a political pack of separatist pitbulls since the beginning. I already PM'd this to some admins on the very first days I saw some of them on Tatoeba.

Don't worry, there will always be contributors in the Kabyle variant on Tatoeba even after their "massive" departure.

They claim that they are not doing politics and here they are talking about "legal proceedings" for segregation. Cheap doublespeak.

Warning to Tatoeba:
The general Algerian public knows how the MAK separatist organisation operates. In fact, this political organisation is so marginal that it seizes any opportunity to cry "wolf" and attract public attention to it. They might start a "demonisation" campaign against Tatoeba on their pages, but don't worry: it's just going to be a hurricane in their little teacup. This would hardly be noticed. People are too familiar with their modus operandi.


SAmiri
2018-10-05 12:42 - 2018-10-05 17:46
If you follow these political pressures and ideologies that have nothing to do with the initial mission of Tatoeba, you should also refuse the others flags. The Kabyle flag is part of the identity of the Kabyle language, if you take it away you refuse to recognize our identity, go also remove the other flag identity that are on Tatoeba, I consider it an attack against my language, you are helping people who have nothing to do with Kabyle to fight it in the digital world. If you remove the flag then I also ask you to delete my Tatoeba account, my sentences and my recordings. We will have to look for another more neutral platform, and if it does not exist we will create it.
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Amastan
2018-10-05 13:38
Samiri: What's 40,000 members and over 300 languages compared to your "team" of separatists?
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belkacem77
2018-10-05 14:04 - 2018-10-05 14:08
@Amastan.

And you mean that you want see us out of Tatoeba? That's your Goal? Since Kabyle is minor it should disapear? that's Tatoeba's mission or just the yours?
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Amastan
2018-10-05 14:11
I think that Belkacem77 doesn't read all of my messages:

Who said that I wanted Kabyle "to disappear"?
Who said that I wanted it gone from Tatoeba? I protested against the transfert of my sentences under the Amazigh label into the Kabyle corpus.
How can I be accused of hating Kabyles? I am Kabyle myself and what I do to support the Amazigh language dwarfs what you and your bunch of foul-mouthed hate campaigners do.



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belkacem77
2018-10-05 14:15
@Amastan,

If you have no hatred against Kabyle, why don't you accept to copy only kabyle sentences within berber corpus to kabyle corpus?
MessDjaaf
2018-10-05 13:50
You're just liying as usual.

If you read in French, Tatoeba admins, here is another short article where I explained why the MAK flag is not suitable to represent the Kabylie & the Kabyle language.

https://drive.google.com/file/d...m_EpmTmrY/view
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Amastan
2018-10-05 14:30 - 2018-10-05 14:35
Dear Tatoebans:

To understand better how this racist separatist and potentially dangerous organisation thinks please read the following passage translated for you from DjaafMess's article:

"And that's not all. For the supporters of the MAK movement, any person who thinks differently from them is labeled as an "Algerianist" (a term equivalent to "harki" or "traitor" in their vocabulary), an Islamist, an Anti-Kabyle, an ignorant or a coward. And for these reasons, this person will be lynched everywhere and their projects blocked. This is democracy the MAK way."

French original version:
"Et ce n’est pas tout. Pour les Makistes, toute personne qui ne pense pas comme eux est algérianiste (terme équivalent au ‘harki’ dans le vocabulaire du MAK), islamiste, anti-kabyle, ignorante ou lâche. Et pour toutes ces raisons, elle sera partout lynchée et ses idées et projets entravés. Démocratie makiste oblige."

Source: https://drive.google.com/file/d...m_EpmTmrY/view

Dear Tatoebans:

Algerianist:
I have been accused by them of being "Algerian." (Hahahaha... As if being an Algerian was an act of treason in itself - Racists!!!)

Islamist:
I have been accused of being an "Islamist" simply because I am Muslim. They need it for their demonisation campaign.

Anti-Kabyle:
I have been accused of being Anti-Kabyle. I am Kabyle, I write Tamazight/Kabyle more and better than them (they know that, don't they?), but I'm the one being accused of hating Kabyles by these self-hating Kabyle sociopaths that hate just everybody that doesn't agree with their extravagant separatist ideas.

Ignorant:
They have suggested, at the beginning of this quarrel, a couple of weeks ago, that I wasn't "knowledgeable" enough when they kept referring to their "academics": "most of the members" of their "team" are "brilliant academics." Most of their "contributors" are "academics." Most of their friends are "academics." I just didn't want to embarrass those "academics" of theirs, otherwise I would have demonstrated that, despite the fact that they're "academics" specialized in the Amazigh language, they keep making countless spelling mistakes.

Coward:
I think that when they "accuse" me of being born outside of Kabylie, they are suggesting that I'm "cowardly," too. Of course, how can I be a "lion" if I were not born in the Kabyle mountains. Paradoxically, they'd never direct racist insults towards Kabyles born in France or Canada because their racist separatist movement needs their dollars and euros.

So as you can see, dear Tatoebans, it's been the same tactics used by them since the beginning of this quarrel. The MAK separatists have they same tactics and they follow them almost everywhere they encounter some opposition.

Oh, and by the way: They would also accuse just any simple person that opposes their separatist ideas of being an "agent of the government." Hahahahaha... Cheap political paranoia...
deniko
2018-10-05 13:02 - 2018-10-05 13:03
> which choice will bring more users, sentences and quality to the site, or, which choice will be the least harmful to the site?

I don't think this criteria should play any role in choosing what flag to adopt at all. This is a very utilitarian approach, and, in my humble opinion, it's very wrong and immoral. The flag choice should follow Tatoeba standards, if any. If you suffer a loss of users or contributions after that, it shouldn't affect your decision.

Besides, instead of having a real discussion, people picked on that argument and they will now start blackmailing you who is leaving and who is staying. It shouldn't really matter.

I don't disagree with the rest of your post.

In fact, I find it very well put, and your arguments in general are very solid.

I just don't think this particular argument I quoted above was ideal.

Also, I don't have my own opinion on the flag itself.

I like the colours of the current flag though. I also like this one:

https://i.imgur.com/1TBtnsb.png

For purely aesthetic reasons.
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Amastan
2018-10-05 13:33
Deniko + Cueyayotl: I too disagree with the example Cueyayotl gave. After all, it would be absolutely immoral of a confederate flag were chosen to represent English or even American English or even Southern American English or whatever. Put yourself in an African American's shoes and you'll see. Haven't they changed the flag of the US state of Georgia just because of the presence of a confederate flag in it? It's very useful to underline this for any future flag issues that could raise political or moral controversy. Would it be OK, for example, if many German speakers chose - God forbid- the Nazi flag to represent their language?
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deniko
2018-10-05 13:48 - 2018-10-05 13:48
> if many German speakers chose - God forbid- the Nazi flag to represent their language?

There shouldn't even be many of them. A dozen of dedicated to this idea users should be enough. What if changing the current German flag to the Nazi flag brings us 12 very active users who will contribute 2 million good high quality sentences in German in a year? We'll lose the current German userbase, but it shouldn't matter from that utilitarian point of view. The number of contributions will increase.
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belkacem77
2018-10-05 14:47 - 2018-10-05 14:54
@Amastan, you are still lying and shame on you. Kabyles saved Jews from deportation and I'm proud of my ancestors. You have to read your own history. If Algeria adopted an antisemetic official politics, Kabylia reject any racism. Kabylia will never develop a racism poltics as you did.

Are you tryning to influence tatoeba admins bebcause you were working since years? The reason is that you did never talk about tatoeba since you were afraid from other contributions. You were selfish, you wanted it for youi right?

Other contributors from other berber languages will launch their corpora and you will not lie forever.


Shame on you!!!! Are you comparing Kabyle flag who represents a region to Nazi Flag?

Shame on you.


I'm proud of being Kabyle whose ancestors saved Jews from deportation, assassination, Shoah. Kabyle people will remain freindly with all people arround the world. We still reject violence, hatred,


Kabyles who lived in Paris during the 2nd world War Saved jews from deportation:
_______
The forgotten story of this act of bravery. These Kabyles who saved Jews from the Nazis
Tract written in Kabyle circulating among the Kabyle emigrants during the raid of the Jews on July 16, 1942 in Paris.

“Yesterday at dawn, the Jews of Paris were arrested, the old men, the women and the children, in exile like us, workers like us, they are our brothers, their children are like our own children “Ammarach Nagh”. When you encounters one of their children you must give them shelter and protection as long as the misfortune – or sorrow – lasts. Oh, men of my country, your heart is generous ”


Here is the original Flyer in Kabyle language

AM ARRAC ENAGH
Id’elli di lefjer hebsen udayen n ‘Paris.
Imgharen am tilawin am arrac.
Di lgherba am nukwni, d-ixeddamen am nukwni.
D-atmaten nagh. Arrac nsen am arrac nagh.
Ma yiwen yufa yiwen weqcic nni,
I’laq as yefk n nsib at isebar attaadi lmehna.
A yargaz n’tmurt nagh, ulik d-amuqran.

And the translation to English

LIKE OUR OWN CHILDREN
Yesterday at dawn, the Jews of Paris were arrested.
The old, the women, and the children.
In exile like ourselves, workers like ourselves.
They are our brothers. Their children are like our own children.
The one who encounters one of his children must give that child shelter and protection for as long as misfortune – or sorrow – lasts.
Oh, man of my country, your heart is generous.

_____________
And I'm Proud of being Kabyle who ancestors saved people from assassination, deportation, shoah...
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deniko
2018-10-05 14:52
> Shame on you!!!! Are you comparing Kabyle flag who represents a region to Nazi Flag?

Ha? I was just refuting the utilitarian argument: "I would change any flag to anything, if it will increase good quality contributions".

The decision on which flag to choose should not depend whether someone (you or Amastan) stays or leaves because of that.

As I said above, I have no own opinion about the flag or the whole controversy.
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Meksems
2018-10-05 15:01
So proud of course.
I'm taking seriously this attack and what you said.
You're treating us as killers... By comparing our flag to the nazi one.
I'm feeling persecuted by your comments.
Just for your information: I take screenshots every time you comment about this.
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deniko
2018-10-05 15:02
> I'm taking seriously this attack and what you said.
> You're treating us as killers... By comparing our flag to the nazi one.
> I'm feeling persecuted by your comments.
> Just for your information: I take screenshots every time you comment about this.

Dude! :)
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Meksems
2018-10-05 15:05
@deniko
I'm not talking to you.
So :) dude...
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deniko
2018-10-05 15:08
> @deniko
> I'm not talking to you.
> So :) dude...

But you replied directly to my message, so it looks like you've replied to me. I even got an email notification for that.

You should have hit reply next to the message you're replying to.

I'm now suspecting belkacem77's "shame on you" reply was also not for me, but he also replied directly to my post.
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Meksems
2018-10-05 15:09
Error. Sorry.
belkacem77
2018-10-06 06:45
@Deniko
Yes deniko, my reply is for Amastan. It's him who compared the SS flag to the Kabyle Flag.
Kabyle Flag means:
- the 2 olive leafs (peace for the olive and 2 for protection)
- the yellow color means the south or the desert or African continent
- the blue color means the Mediterranean sea which means that we are the part of this region not the middle east as wanted by others.

Amastan
2018-10-05 15:06
Deniko: I'm feeling persecuted by these comments...

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..... snif, snif...

Amastan
2018-10-05 15:03
MeksemS: You are the one who insulted me on Facebook. I have taken screenshots of your insults, too.

Amastan
2018-10-05 15:04
MeksemS: Take this screenshot, please:

You are intellectual terrorists. You are online terrorists. You are racist virtual terrorists. Down with the racist separatist MAK movement.
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Meksems
2018-10-05 15:07
It's done. :)
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Amastan
2018-10-05 15:08
Add this one, please:

The MAK movement is a potentially terrorist movement. Its members are cheap foul-mouthed aggressive ignorant racists.

Of course, if you are not from the MAK movement, then you shouldn't feel "persecuted"....
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Meksems
2018-10-05 15:11
It doesn't concern me. So. 😀
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Amastan
2018-10-05 15:13
MeksemS: screenshot this:

Foul-mouthed cheap talker. - This is for you.
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Meksems
2018-10-05 15:17 - 2018-10-05 15:18
You can carry on. This doesn't Hurt me comming from a hater.
But it will be used. Don't worry. 😉
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Amastan
2018-10-05 15:18
I have screenshot your threats. Don't worry about that, too.
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Meksems
2018-10-05 15:19
Good for you 😀.
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Amastan
2018-10-05 15:28
What you said on Facebook will cost you dearly in a court of law.
Amastan
2018-10-05 15:28
Meksems: I am not playing. You will see. I promise :-)
Amazigh_Bedar
2018-10-05 15:07
The team working on the Kabyle knew well that means their flag, that's why they continue to work under the Kabyle flag.
There are two people who ask all the time to change the flags while they work on the language "Berber". It's good to start by putting the real "Berber" flag for their language and not to get mixed up in Kabyle affairs.
We know very well that the Kabyle flag means, and we know that we are doing linguistics and not politics. We'll let you and these two people leave us alone and take care of their business.
They want us to leave tatoeba or what?
they want us to get rid of our work or what?
That's their goal? they have no other things to do?
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Amastan
2018-10-05 15:13
>>>>> They want us to leave tatoeba or what?
Nobody has asked you to leave. Your separatist "teammates" have mentioned that.

MeksemS: Don't forget to screenshot this, too.
Amastan
2018-10-05 15:01
Hold on, Sir, hold on... Calm down and stop jumping about the room like a crazy grasshopper...

I didn't compare the MAK flag to the Nazi flag although the MAK movement is racist and is, morally, on an equal footing as the racist Nazi movements of yesterday and today.

Oh, and if you are trying to please the Jews of Tatoeba with your story, here is my story, too:

Algerians, many of them, thousands of them, regardless of whether they were Kabyle or not, did help Jews in Algeria and abroad to escape the Nazi extermination camps. Jews, many of them, did help Algerians during the Algerian independence war. Henri Alleg was Jewish himself. He was captured and tortured by French paratroopers:

https://www.independent.co.uk/n...e-8742687.html

So if you are trying to draw any sympathies from Jews, EEEEENH! Wrong!

However, let me tell you something: I do think that your separatist movement is similar to some Islamist movements as it is paving the way to an armed conflict.





MessDjaaf
2018-10-05 13:05 - 2018-10-05 13:21
Thousands of thanks to Tatoeba admins for having taken such a wise decision. The MAK-ist team should accept this decision if they are really here for promoting the Kabyle language and not for political aims. This decision does not affect their work as a team, rather it will increase the number of contributors. As said before, the flag n°3 (https://i.imgur.com/1TBtnsb.png)) is really the most suitable as it identifies at the same time both the Kabyle language and the Amazigh family of languages to which Kabyle belongs.
Personally, I will do my best to ask / invite other contributors to join us on Tatoeba, not only among the Kabyles and Berbers, but also among Arabic speaking Algerians. Note that I personally can write in Kabyle, Arabic, French and English, so I - as I have been doing since I came here - can contibute with all of thes languages, either by adding sentences or by translating them.
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Meksems
2018-10-05 14:52 - 2018-10-05 14:53
Are kidding or what ?
You are a hater, you are a racist that's all.
What are saying ? Did you just make a parallel between the Kabyle flag and the nazi one ?
This should be taken seriously as an insult and an attack here !
I demand to Tatoeba's Admin to stop this man Who is insulting kabyles and treate us as nazis.
It can't be admitted.
I'm done. What is that. I feel persecuted here.
AmarMecheri
2018-10-05 13:38 - 2018-10-05 14:33
@Cueyayotl:
J'interviens ici strictement en tant qu'individu,
... ... ... ... ... ... en tant que Kabyle tout court.

Sans parler des autres questions d'ordre linguistique
(que vous avez superbement ignorées et évacuées),

Sans parler du préjudice moral et de son caractère "discrétionnaire", erroné et arbitraire;

Je considère votre décision (ou option de décision) comme discriminatoire et offensante pour la communauté kabyle parce que:
(1) vous faites semblant de méconnaître les raisons qui ont poussé les Kabyles à contribuer séparément... alors que vous les connaissez;
(2) vous avez fait complètement abstraction des attaques iniques et des propos déplaisants qui nous ont visés en tant que Kabyles, y compris par des non-algériens (qui ne devraient pas avoir voix au chapitre! à quel titre?);
(3) Vous n'avez pris ni suggéré aucune mesure visant ceux qui nous ont offensés;
(4, etc.) Sans y paraître, votre prise de position n'a rien à voir avec l'aspect linguistique et elle est purement d'ordre politique (ou politicarde) et ségrégationniste ...
... je vous laisse le soin de deviner le reste de mes récriminations. ....
...... d'ordre éthique, déontologique, voire touchant à la moralité...
...... d'ordre civilisationnel ...

PS1: Je vous rappelle que je ne m'exprime pas au nom de l'équipe kabyle ni de quiconque,
mais strictement à titre personnel,
en tant que simple contributeur.
PS2: Je ne suis pas membre du MAK
ni d'aucune autre sphère politique
(même si j'ai activé dans un parti démocrate (FFS) durant les années 90')
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MessDjaaf
2018-10-05 14:26
Là aussi, c'est un mensonge, cher AmarMacheri, car tu fais partie des MAKistes. Rien n'indique le contraire, surtout sur Facebook.
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Amastan
2018-10-05 14:39 - 2018-10-05 14:40
AmarMecheri:
Just a little question:
You called on your friends on Facebook "to keep an eye on me":

How? Are you going to use your "armed militia" for that? Isn't what you said on Facebook a few days ago extremely dangerous? Is "keeping an eye" on people part of the duties of Ferhat Mehenni's "armed militia"? Are you terrorizing people now? Has the MAK become a fully-fledged terrorist organisation now?

Please explain...
Sifaks
2018-10-05 16:04
If the Kabyle flag happens to be removed and the other non state flag remain, then it is a pure case of discrimination, racism, segregation.
Especially when the contributors working under the Kabyle flag do it by free will and do like there flag. The dictatorial Algerian junta would thank you for that!
TRANG
2018-10-06 22:00
In all this turmoil regarding the decision to change the flag, I am hoping that everyone involved can manage to step back from arguing against each other, and instead, take a moment to think about what would be a fair process to come to a fair decision.

The situation, as I understand it, is as followed:
- According to several people, the current Kabyle flag represents a political movement, which has possibly questionable ideologies. For this reason, they advise us to change it to something more neutral.
- According to several Kabyle contributors, the Kabyle flag represents the Kabyle region and its people and has nothing to do with politics. For this reason, they feel it is absurd to change the flag.

First of all, I don't think we can avoid politics here. Choosing or creating a language icon is not a linguistic work. It's a design work. This is about choosing a combination of colors and shapes that will best represent a language. It's unreasonable to try to take politics out of the equation. Pick a color, pick a shape, pick a name, pick anything, there's gonna be someone, somewhere, who will connect it to politics. If we want to choose an image that is widely recognized by the speakers of a language, we will have a hard time finding something that is completely void of politics. So requesting to change a flag because it is "political" would not be a valid reason on its own.

What we have to consider is whether the flag is controversial, confusing, awkward, inappropriate... Does it feel wrong? More importantly: does it feel wrong to the native speakers? I don't think we should completely dismiss the opinions of non-native speakers, but native speakers definitely have far more authority. If the native speakers see nothing wrong with the flag, we shouldn't bother changing it.

In the case of Kabyle, as far as I understand, there *are* native speakers who do not want to contribute in the Kabyle language because of what the flag represents to them. So there seems to be something wrong. But are these people are simply trouble makers? Or do they have a legitimate reason to reject the flag? This is not necessarily an easy assessment.

From your analysis, cueyayotl, I feel there is a lack of outside sources to back up your points. In other words, it feels that your decision was made based mostly on what people have reported on the Wall. I don't blame you, we never had such a strong conflict before and up until now, we could just rely on what users would tell us.
But because this conflict is a complex one, with two sides that are strongly in disagreement, I think we need to take an extra step and do actual research. For instance you mentioned that the flag is banned in Algeria and that anyone contributing to the Kabyle corpus under this flag faces legal repercussions. Can you back this up with reliable non-biased sources?

Generally speaking, from now on, I think we can no longer rely purely on what contributors within this community are telling us. And this is not meant to say that people will lie to us to get what they want. What what I mean is there's different sides to a story. The way people will tell you a story is affected by their own emotions and their own agenda. It will be filled with subjectivity.

Before we can take your decision to the next step, it would be wise to gather and present external/objective evidence that the flag is indeed problematic.


Aside of this, I agree with deniko that we shouldn't choose a flag based on how many users/sentences it brings to the project. We cannot know anyway - and can never know - how many users nor how many sentences we will lose or gain in the long term by choosing a flag over another. We can only speculate.

In the end there's probably just two criteria we can rely on:
1) the flag is widely recognizable by the native speakers of the language
2) it doesn't get us into trouble

Regarding the Kabyle flag, it seems that we're fine with the first criteria. We are perhaps not so fine with the second criteria. That's what we need to prove (or disprove), by doing proper research.

If for whatever reason some people do not want to contribute or want to leave Tatoeba because they reject our choice of a flag, then so be it. For those who only care about linguistics, only care about building a dataset of free sentences in their native language, the flag should be the least of their worries.

And really, I think the final decision itself doesn't matter much here. The process to come to the decision matters more. We want to be as fair and impartial as possible, and we will try our best for that. I'd like to believe that that as long as we make this effort, people will be understanding and stay with us, no matter the decision. As for the rest, we're probably better off without them.


Last but not least, I would really appreciate if people could stop flooding the Wall with posts about Kabyle and Berber. You've had enough attention these past couple of weeks. This is becoming disrespectful towards the rest of the community who currently cannot use the Wall to discuss any other topics because the Kabyle/Berber topic takes the monopoly.

If anyone wants to reply to anything I've said, I request that you send me a *private message* because I'd like to give everyone a break from this madness. I may or may not have time to answer, but I guarantee I will read.
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cueyayotl
2018-10-07 07:55
<<<you mentioned that the flag is banned in Algeria and that anyone contributing to the Kabyle corpus under this flag faces legal repercussions

I said it COULD become banned, pending on the moves of the MAK. It currently is NOT banned.

<<<I agree with deniko that we shouldn't choose a flag based on how many users/sentences it brings to the project

I gave this argument due to the apolitical nature we strive for in Tatoeba (noting of course, that we cannot avoid politics 100%, however). Despite that, I have faith in humanity; I know that people will tend to stay away from divisive language icons here on Tatoeba, such as the US Confederate Flag or the Nazi flag, and I know – it was in itself ridiculous to even hypothetically assume that either flag as a language icon would bring more progress – even if a few members contribute several sentences under such a nefarious language icon, many MANY more will leave the project, or never join it. As for deniko's comment on blackmail: blackmailing others is a sign of character weakness – if someone is blackmailing us now, they would mostly likely blackmail or bully others here eventually (potentially resulting in the loss of other members), so their threats do not affect my decision in the slightest. I don't usually like utilitarian arguments myself personally, but I am confident that at least in Tatoeba's case, doing things we perceive to be more moral WILL bring the most effective development for the site.

I agree with every other point here, and will myself step back for a short time, analyzing any new information I come across. I expect many private messages to come in the next few days, which I will do my best to read, but I sincerely hope that they only contain new information – anything that was already on the wall (either in English or in French), I have read.

Whichever decision we take in the coming weeks, I (and I hope the rest of the Tatoeba family) thank those who decide to stay with us, especially those who may disagree with our decisions – as TRANG noted, we cannot make everybody happy, but we need as many caring, strong-willed, language-enthusiast members as we can get to build this project to something that can make a global impact: improve literacy, foreign-language learning and preservation of languages.

We will always be here for those who can make a positive difference – even if you feel you have to leave us, you can always find a place here to return to.