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JeanM JeanM March 31, 2019 March 31, 2019 at 1:52:07 AM UTC link Permalink

I'd be curious to hear what people think about the following feature suggestion: allow users to release *any* personal contribution under CC0, even if it's e.g. a translation of a sentence that's under CC-BY 2.0 FR.

The original license would still apply, since a translation is a derivative work – and a warning should probably be shown. However, should the source sentence ever be released under CC0, then I believe this would mean that the translation could also be automatically switched to the less restrictive CC0 (which I favour for my own contributions).

(Although of course I am not a lawyer and I could be completely wrong about all of this.)

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AmarMecheri AmarMecheri April 1, 2019 April 1, 2019 at 1:25:19 AM UTC link Permalink

Exactement ... et plus encore! Je suis parfaitement d'accord avec vous.
Plus encore... je ne comprends pas ... pourquoi quand je donne des variantes de MES PROPRES PHRASES sous CCO 1.0 (toujours en kabyle ou traduites par moi-même vers le français et l'anglais) ... pourquoi je suis obligé de cliquer ... encore ... pour préciser CCO 1.0, faute de quoi elles s'affichent en CC-BY 2.0 FR. Alors que TOUTES MES PHRASES M'APPARTIENNENT....

Exactly ... and more! I totally agree with you.
More ... I do not understand ... why when I give variants of MY OWN PHRASES under CCO 1.0 (still in Kabyle or translated by myself to French and English) ... why I have to click ... again ... to specify CCO 1.0, otherwise they are displayed in CC-BY 2.0 FR. While ALL MY PHRASES ARE MINE....

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JeanM JeanM April 1, 2019 April 1, 2019 at 3:40:33 PM UTC link Permalink

Je crois qu'il s'agit simplement d'une limitation de l'interface de Tatoeba. Si c'est une traduction d'une phrase sous CC0, d'après ce que j'ai compris, légalement vous pouvez toujours la diffuser sous la licence CC0.

--

I think it's just a limitation of Tatoeba's interface. If it's a translation of a sentence under CC0, legally you can always release it under CC0, as far as I understand.


https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...contributions#

"While it should logically be possible to use CC0 for the translations or audio of a CC0 sentence, we have not yet implemented this possibility in Tatoeba. We will consider it once we have a larger number of CC0 sentences."

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AmarMecheri AmarMecheri April 3, 2019, edited April 3, 2019 April 3, 2019 at 2:43:25 AM UTC, edited April 3, 2019 at 2:53:23 AM UTC link Permalink

@JeanM
Thank you for responding, but it's way worse than what you said.
In fact, we who want to benefit our young friends researchers / students through the license CCO 1.0, we are really AFFLIGED to have to write our Kabyle sentences, one by one under license CCO 1.0.
Because, if we link them from the beginning by writing them following a key phrase, they are considered as translations and are adorned with the label CC FR 2.0. It takes crazy time for the Kabyle contributors, who wanted to gain time. We do this FOR HONOR, NOT FOR EMBRYING (annoying) Tatoeba. Do something, if possible, please! Have pity on our language, which almost disappeared!
 @JeanM
Merci d'avoir répondu, mais c'est bien pire que ce que vous avez dit.
En fait, nous qui voulons profiter nos jeunes amis chercheurs / étudiants via de la licence CCO 1.0, nous sommes vraiment AFFLIGÉS de devoir écrire nos phrases en kabyle, une par une, sous licence CCO 1.0.
En effet, si nous les lions dès le départ en les écrivant à la suite d'une phrase clé, elles sont considérées comme des traductions et sont affublées de l'étiquette CC FR 2.0. Cela nous prend un temps fou, nous les contributeurs kabyles qui voulaient gagner du temps. Nous faisons cela POUR L'HONNEUR, PAS POUR ENNUYER Tatoeba. Faites quelque chose, si possible, s'il vous plaît! Ayez pitié de notre langue qui a failli disparaître !

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CK CK April 3, 2019, edited November 1, 2019 April 3, 2019 at 2:51:44 AM UTC, edited November 1, 2019 at 3:23:03 AM UTC link Permalink

[not needed anymore- removed by CK]

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JeanM JeanM April 3, 2019 April 3, 2019 at 11:00:14 AM UTC link Permalink

Having worked for a few companies (large and small) that do work in machine learning, I can say that the situation for them is often a little different. I am not a lawyer myself, but the following is based on my first-hand experience.

If a researcher/engineer at one of those companies wants to do some work which uses a dataset, the company's legal team must review the dataset's license. Legal teams love public domain data, because it makes their job easy. Even very liberal licenses that impose requirements (such as the Attribution part of CC BY) or which are written in foreign languages with foreign legal systems in mind (such as CC BY 2.0 FR) make the lawyers' work harder, and will take longer to get approval or may just be denied. Especially if the researcher wants to use a bunch of different datasets, each with its own license.

Now for major languages like French or Japanese, I as a researcher can make a business case for getting the lawyers to spend the extra time reviewing 10 licenses in 10 different jurisdictions: the company has lots of customers speaking those languages, and so better support for them will generate extra revenue. If we're talking about a minority language though, which might make a few people happy and help preserve a culture but is unlikely to make the company any money whatsoever, things are different. Chances are that, unless the dataset is in the public domain or under a license that has already been tested in the local legal system, getting approval will be much harder.

In an ideal world companies would be ok with going through a few extra hoops to support a minority language, but in reality only few places will be willing to do that. This is why I feel wide CC0 support is key – not because I want to make corporations' lives easier per se, but for the sake of communities which speak endangered languages and want to ensure their work is as widely accessible as possible.

Having said that, regardless of whether something like this gets implemented in the future or not, I'd like to say a big thank you to all the Tatoeba admins, community, and developers for the great work they've put into this project. It's pretty amazing what you've all achieved.

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AmarMecheri AmarMecheri April 5, 2019, edited April 5, 2019 April 5, 2019 at 1:33:38 AM UTC, edited April 5, 2019 at 1:39:47 AM UTC link Permalink

@JeanM
Not only I do appreciate the fact that you have raised the problem and explained all aspects of it, but I am also grateful to you for having grasped and defended our primary concern for safeguarding our language that we have had great difficulty in resurrect and preserve against absolutism. Big thanks!
 @JeanM
Non seulement j'apprécie le fait que vous ayez soulevé le problème et expliqué tous les aspects de celui-ci, mais je vous suis également reconnaissant d'avoir compris et défendu notre souci premier de préserver notre langue que nous avons eu beaucoup de mal à ressusciter et à préserver contre l'absolutisme. Grand merci!

AmarMecheri AmarMecheri April 3, 2019 April 3, 2019 at 3:44:54 PM UTC link Permalink

@CK
Merci pour votre réponse.
Même si cela ne résout pas le problème que j'ai posé, à la suite des remarques judicieuses des @JeanM, je comprends qu'il soit du devoir de l'initiateur que vous êtes, de défendre l'intégrité de Tatoeba. Ce site auquel je continue d'apporter ma contribution vaille que vaille, par égard pour des personnes respectables comme vous.
Thank you for your reply.
Even if that does not solve the problem I posed, following the judicious remarks of @JeanM, I understand that it is the duty of the initiator you are, to defend the integrity of Tatoeba. This site to which I continue to make my contribution whatever comes, for the sake of respectable people like you.

gillux gillux April 3, 2019 April 3, 2019 at 4:49:20 AM UTC link Permalink

Je comprends votre frustration. Pour répondre à la question du « pourquoi », la raison est que personne n’a encore travaillé à améliorer ça. Il se trouve que très peu de personnes travaillent sur Tatoeba et il y a des tonnes et des tonnes d’autres choses à améliorer et d’autres problèmes à corriger (dont certains bien plus critiques, qui rendent par exemple le site inaccessible).

Il existe une solution pour réduire l’inconfort en attendant que la situation s’améliore. Vous pouvez créer des phrases en CC-BY pendant un certain temps (par exemple une journée), puis changer la licence de toutes vos phrases CC-BY en CC0 d’un coup d’un seul, en allant sur la page https://tatoeba.org/licensing/switch_my_sentences

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PaulP PaulP April 3, 2019 April 3, 2019 at 10:42:41 AM UTC link Permalink

> puis changer la licence de toutes vos phrases CC-BY en CC0 d’un coup d’un seul, en allant sur la page https://tatoeba.org/licensing/switch_my_sentences

C'est drôle. Chez moi ce lien conduit à la page d'entrée (https://tatoeba.org)

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gillux gillux April 3, 2019 April 3, 2019 at 3:33:17 PM UTC link Permalink

Oui. Comme cette fonctionnalité est encore en développement, elle est pour le moment seulement accessible à certaines personnes qui souhaitent publier leurs phrases sous licence CC0. Si vous souhaitez vous aussi avoir y accès, demandez à un administrateur.

AmarMecheri AmarMecheri April 3, 2019 April 3, 2019 at 3:33:30 PM UTC link Permalink

@gillux
Merci infiniment pour votre réponse, à la fois, très constructive, explicite et utile. Ça me va droit au coeur!
C'est grâce à des personnes comme vous, qui se consacrent sans rechigner, à la bonne marche de TATOEBA, que je continue à contribuer malgré certaines difficultés de compréhension avec certains pontes.
J'essaierai de concrétiser vos suggestions.
Encore merci.
Au plaisir de vous lire!

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TRANG TRANG April 4, 2019 April 4, 2019 at 6:04:21 PM UTC link Permalink

Je voudrais aussi ajouter que de la même manière qu'il est actuellement possible de migrer toutes vos phrases originales vers CC0, il sera possible un jour de migrer toutes vos traductions éligibles vers CC0, en un seul clic.

Donc à moins que vous soyez dans l'urgence, ne vous ennuyez pas à créer les phrases séparément pour les lier ensuite. Contribuez normalement, et attendez simplement qu'on implémente la fonctionnalité.

J'ai créé un ticket sur GitHub à ce sujet: https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1858

Je ne dis pas que ce sera implémenté d'ici tôt car comme gillux l'a fait remarqué, il y a énormément de boulot sur Tatoeba et très peu de resources. Mais les choses finissent par avancer, il faut juste être patient.

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AmarMecheri AmarMecheri April 5, 2019 April 5, 2019 at 1:13:09 AM UTC link Permalink

@Trang
Vous m'en voyez ravi et je vous remercie, ainsi que @gillux, @JeanM, @CK et tous ceux parmi le staff qui contribuent aux améliorations de Tatoeba.
Je suis content que vous ayez tous deux compris mes préoccupations.
Je suis très patient et j'attendrai car j'accorde toute ma confiance à votre site, que j'ai fait mien.
Salutations cordiales.

TRANG TRANG April 1, 2019 April 1, 2019 at 4:57:00 PM UTC link Permalink

> I'd be curious to hear what people think about the following feature suggestion:
> allow users to release *any* personal contribution under CC0, even if it's e.g. a
> translation of a sentence that's under CC-BY 2.0 FR.

I can tell you this is not a legal risk I would take. By doing that, we would be making the statement that a derivative work should be completely independent from the original work in terms of intellectual property. I don't think we stand a chance if we wanted to defend that point of view. At least I wouldn't be able to defend it.

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JeanM JeanM April 1, 2019 April 1, 2019 at 6:07:24 PM UTC link Permalink

Oh I'm not suggesting the translation as a whole be released under CC0 regardless of the underlying sentence's license. I don't think that would stand, as you say. I'm suggesting something that is subtly different.

Example scenario: You write a sentence, and I translate it.

What I'm proposing is to make a distinction between:
(1) your underlying sentence, which is your own (copyright-protected) expressive creation;
(2) and my translation, which is a combination of my own expressive creation and yours.

I am further suggesting that you allow users to license their own expressive creations under CC0, if they so desire.

This might seem silly because how can one possibly take my translation and "separate" my expressive creation from yours? Obviously users of the translation will still need to abide by the license imposed by you. However, I can think of at least two scenarios where allowing a distinction between the two separate expressive creations would be useful:

(1) Imagine you license an original sentence under CC BY, I translate it, but I don't actually care about being credited myself for the translation. I should then be able to state that I do not wish to impose any further restrictions on the translation, other than the ones which already exist on the underlying work. This would mean that users of the translation would only have to abide by the CC BY license of the underlying work. Compare this to the current situation, where translators are essentially forced to apply extra restrictions to the translations they contribute (in the form of an extra CC BY license), on top of the conditions that already exist on the underlying sentence.

So basically, the current sitation is:
TRANG's sentence released under CC BY + JeanM's contribution released under CC-BY = JeanM's translation of TRANG's sentence, released under TRANG and JeanM's CC BY licenses *simultaneously*.

And what I think would be quite neat is to make this possible:
TRANG's sentence released under CC BY + JeanM's contribution released under CC0 = JeanM's translation of TRANG's sentence, released under TRANG's CC BY license *only*.

(2) Imagine you contribute loads of original sentences under CC BY, and I translate all of them. At a future point in time, you decide to relicense the original sentences under CC0. I would actually have been fine with releasing the translations under CC0 – but because of the interface, I actually had to apply an *additional* CC BY license to the translations. Then I get run over by a bus / I disappear from the face of the Internet, and so the translations are stuck with the CC BY license. Had I been allowed to state "my own expressive creations are released under CC0" then, once you relicensed your sentences under CC0, the translations would also have been automatically relicensed under the more permissive CC0.

Apologies for the wordiness, and I hope I managed to explain myself more clearly.

My own personal motivation for releasing as much as possible under CC0 is that I am a speaker of an endangered language, and I want to impose as few burdens as possible on potential users of the data I create. I am basically desperate for companies/researchers to use data in my language, and I know that many companies will prefer data the under CC0. (Incidentally, that's also the license required for text in Mozilla Common Voice)

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TRANG TRANG April 1, 2019 April 1, 2019 at 7:28:12 PM UTC link Permalink

Okay, I understand better. In fact you want a way to automatically switch the license of your translations to CC0 whenever possible.

Or you want a license that basically says "My derivative work will be automatically re-licensed to the most permissive license possible if the original work is re-licensed to a more permissive license". I don't think such a license has been created.

But I guess you could publish somewhere that you wish to have all your contributions released under CC0 when possible and you allow Tatoeba to change the license of your translations to CC0 without having to ask you. That might be enough.

Hopefully we will implement the possibility to switch the license of translations in a not too far future, and hopefully you'll still be around by then.

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JeanM JeanM April 1, 2019 April 1, 2019 at 8:29:34 PM UTC link Permalink

> Or you want a license that basically says "My derivative work will be automatically re-licensed to the most permissive license possible if the original work is re-licensed to a more permissive license". I don't think such a license has been created.

Yeah that's pretty much it. I think that can be achieved by simply stating that you release your contribution (and only your contribution – not the derivative work as a whole) under CC0, but I may be wrong as I am not a lawyer.

> But I guess you could publish somewhere that you wish to have all your contributions released under CC0 when possible

I already have a sentence on my profile to that effect, yes. In fact I've noticed a few other users with similar statements.

> Hopefully we will implement the possibility to switch the license of translations in a not too far future, and hopefully you'll still be around by then.

Nice! Until then, I'll make sure to look both ways whenever I cross the street.

AmarMecheri AmarMecheri April 2, 2019 April 2, 2019 at 12:20:41 AM UTC link Permalink

The question is ill-posed, it seems to me. For example, I write my own Kabyle sentences under CCO 1.0 and translate them myself into French and English. In all three languages, they are mine and they are original. Why am I CONTRATING to (Why am I obliged to -) specify the nature of the CCO 1.0 license each time?
La question est mal posée, il me semble. Par exemple, j'écris mes propres phrases en kabyle sous CCO 1.0 et je les traduis moi-même en français et en anglais. Dans les trois langues, ce sont les miennes et elles sont originales. Pourquoi suis-je CONTRAINT de préciser la nature de la licence CCO 1.0, à chaque fois?