Muro (5 770 fadenoj)
Antaŭ ol starigi demandon, bonvolu legi la oftajn demandojn.
Ni strebas konservi sanan etoson en civilizitaj diskutoj. Bv. legi niajn regulojn kontraŭ malbona konduto.
antaŭ 40 minutoj
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Je rêve d'une fonctionnalité du type "Au hasard sans Tom" ...
Il est possible de faire une recherche en excluant certains mots, mais il faut spécificer au moins un mot à inclure.
Vous pouvez donc par exemple inclure un mot fréquent (comme "the") et exclure Tom:
> mais il faut spécificer au moins un mot à inclure.
ben oui, c'est pénible...
Je suis d'accord, ce n'est pas parfait. C'était juste pour suggérer une solution en attendant qu'on ait quelque chose de mieux.
il y a un message "Nous avons révisé nos conditions d'utilisation. " mais il n'indique pas ce qui a été révisé. Ce serait plus sympa plutôt que de laisser chercher les aiguilles dans la botte de foin. Moi je ne vais pas chercher et donc pas accepter...
L'affichage du message est dû à un bug qui fait que certains utilisateurs n'ont pas eu l'occasion d'accepter les nouvelles conditions d'utilisation après leur introduction en janvier 2019 et ne voient ce message que maintenant.
Il n'y a pas eu de changements dans le contenu en lui-même, juste quelques corrections et reformulations. Pour info l'historique des changements est accessible ici:
Le dernier changement ne comporte qu'une réindentation du code HTML.
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Please, PM me if you have any other questions
est-ce que "marquer comme OK" est comptabilisé comme un "contribution" ?
Marquer comme OK, pas sûr, ou pas OK n'est pas comptabilisé comme une contribution.
Concernant ce qui est comptabilisé comme une contribution, ce n'est actuellement pas très clair, et selon la page que vous consultez "contribution" n'a pas le même sens. Du travail a été fait dans ce sens ces derniers temps. La page montrant l'activité journalière va bientôt se voir faire un lifting. Une fois cela fait, nous pourrons plus facilement harmoniser les "contributions" sur les diverses pages (Dernière contributions, page de profil, etc.)
Puis-je vous demander pourquoi votre question ? Est-ce que vous voudriez voir le nombre de OK, pas sûr, pas OK d'un coup d'œil sur une page spécifique ? Ou simplement le total des trois ? Ou bien autre chose ?
Juste pour référence, concernant les "contributions" :
Non je trouve simplement que la révision d'une phrase devrait être comptabilisée dans les "Contributions" d'un utilisateur. C'est du boulot et c'est utile. Tout travail mérite salaire...
I think that clicking on the flag should allow you to change the language of a sentence. This is more intuitive than the current way of doing it.
Isn't that the way it already works? Could you describe in more detail what you see when you click on a flag?
That's weird. It works for me.
This is how I do it, do you do it differently?
1. Found a sentence with the wrong flag:
2. Click on the flag. A drop down menu appears, it tells you the name of the current flag:
3. I expand the list and choose the correct language:
4. Voila. The flag has changed:
EDIT. Out of curiosity I temporarily changed my sentence display style to the "new design", so maybe you were trying that in the new design? It seems to be working differently there. Clicking on the flag does nothing. You're supposed to click "Edit", after that you can change either the flag or the sentence (or both, I guess):
Yes, I'm using the new design.
It used to be that way but in the new design one first has to click on “expand menu” and then on the menu “edit”. And then you can change the flag. I really prefer the old design!!!
I hadn't been using the new design, but now I see that clicking on the flag does not change the language. However, I don't need to click on "expand menu" in order to select "edit". "Edit" is one of the buttons that is displayed even when the menu is not expanded.
I can see that an additional click is now required, but in defense of the new design:
(1) Clicking on the flag to change the language, as in the old design, never felt intuitive to me. I remember not knowing how to change the language until someone explained it to me.
(2) Labeling with the wrong language is less common than errors in the text itself, so I don't find it such a burden to click on the "edit" button first.
(3) In the old design, the language drop-down blocked part of the content, while this design lets you look at both the language and the sentence content at the same time.
> However, I don't need to click on "expand menu" in order to select "edit".
Same here. The "Edit" icon is readily available.
> in defense of the new design
All good points. I'm not a fan of the new design at all, but this feature in particular seems to be alright, and even more intuitive comparing to the old design.
You are right. I do not need the “expand menu” first. However, I preferred the old design but it’s not a big deal. I get used to this solution I guess.
From my experience, not everyone finds it intuitive. Alan and deniko are not the only people.
In fact we have a bug in the old design which we discovered because some people first click on the edit button, then click on the flag, even if they could click right away on the flag:
I also remember someone mention on the wall that they would like to click on the flag of a sentence and see other sentences in the language clicked. It shows that, for this person as well, it would not be intuitive to click on the flag to edit the sentence.
So I'm tempted to say that it is simply more convenient for you (and Elsofie, and surely several other users) to click on the flag, purely out of habit. You are just used to it and changing habits takes some time. But it is overall not more intuitive.
Minulta ainakin kesti oma aikani keksiä, että lippua voi painaa.
Samoin näkee uusia käyttäjiä, jotka pyytävät jotakuta poistamaan lauseen, koska se on väärän lipun alla.
When I'm on a page that lists sentences, and I make a change to one of the listed sentences, I would like to stay on the list page and have its content preserved except for reflecting whatever change I've made. For instance, when I'm on a page that lists all sentences with a given tag, and I delete a sentence, I would ideally like the page to list all the sentences it did previously, with the exception of the one I deleted. Second-best would be for it to continue to list all the sentences it did previously, including the one I deleted. That wouldn't let me keep track of my progress, but at least it would let me continue to work through the page. But what happens currently is that when I delete a sentence from a list page, I am taken to the sentence page, which now says that the sentence is deleted. This is not useful information to me, and it breaks the flow of my work. I can use the browser's "Back" button, but now the content has to reload.
Currently, my way of working around this is to right-click on the link to each sentence that I want to work on and open it in a new tab (or window). I'd rather not have to do this.
I captured this in issue ticket 2227 ( https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2227 ), but am curious whether anyone has any comments to offer here.
It's actually a known issue. You are not the only one annoyed by it :)
I see. Thanks.
Is it possible to subscribe to all comments from a certain sentence that doesn't belong to me without leaving a comment under it?
Currently it's not possible. What is your use case?
I often find some discussions very interesting, but I don't feel like commenting because I have nothing to say. One recent example is this one:
But I happen upon something really interesting like this quite often. Sometimes I stumble upon an interesting question that is not answered yet, and I want to wait for the answer too. I just don't want to miss it, and I believe I mostly miss them.
For questions, especially if the question has been there for years, I sometimes add something like "I've got this question too" - it's not really constructive, but this way it gets a higher chance of being noticed, and it also "subscribes" me to that thread.
But I often don't have anything to contribute, but still interested in the discussion and don't want to miss anything, taking into account some discussions are happening at the speed of one post per month or something.
You could just add a simple comment like „Interesting discussion” and then you will be notified if the discussion goes on.
That's a cool workaround, but it doesn't contribute to the discussion at all, especially if there are more than one person who would like to "subscribe".
For now, you can comment and delete it later. I think it`s the best approach for now
I believe if I delete my comment I won't receive notifications for that sentence.
You would indeed no longer receive notifications if you remove your comment.
I created an issue on GitHub:
Sentence #8281856 is misclassified as Spanish by the search engine.
It shouldn't appear in this search: https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...rom=spa&to=und
It also appears in the same search for Portuguese, though:
I created an issue on GitHub: https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2226
Gondolom meg lett változtatva a zászló, de valamiért benn maradt a spanyol mondatok között is.
Egy zászló oda-vissza állítást megér a portugál és spanyol közt, hátha akkor már törlődik a spanyol mondatok közül.
I just searched "chiamassero" for example sentences, and all the sentences showing the verb "chiamare" (vocabulary form) showed up.
In my personal language learning I need a thing like this: you give it a specific form like "chiamassero" or "chiameremmo", and that thing spits out "chiamare".
How is it done within tatoeba? For which languages do you have this features?
For many languages, including Italian, our search engine (Manticore) has a feature called stemming. That means that it strips common endings from both the search words and the sentences against which it is looking for a match (unless you request an exact match by putting an equals sign before a search word). That's the behavior you saw when you searched for "chiamassero" and found sentences with "chiamare" (among other words, like "chiamarono"). The list of languages for which our search engine provides stemming can be found (see item 2) on this wiki page:
You can get that link by clicking the "Help" link above the search bar.
Tatoeba doesn't have a facility for returning the dictionary form of an inflected word, but Wiktionary does. Simply type "chiamassero" into the search field, and you'll get this page:
with the text "third-person plural imperfect subjunctive of chiamare".
I've searched in tatoeba's source code for stemming, and I've found it uses snowball if I read the source right. My understanding is that "chiamassero" and "chiamare" and "chiameremmo" are all stemmed to "chiam". However, what I'd really want is for them to be stemmed to "chiamare", so my platform could look it up in a dictionary directly.
An example of what really does exactly what I want is mecab. I give it a sentence, and it gives me back a list of words I can directly look up in a dictionary in their dictionary form.
Can I just look at the closest match in a dictionary for the stemmed form, for most languages, and get the correct word?
It is my understanding that wiktionary's feature is based on manual contributions and is not algorithmic. Do you happen to know how extensive it is (for en.wiktionary)?
> I've searched in tatoeba's source code for stemming, and I've found it uses snowball if I read the source right.
Well, Tatoeba uses Manticore, and Manticore uses Snowball, so basically yes.
> My understanding is that "chiamassero" and "chiamare" and "chiameremmo" are all stemmed to "chiam". However, what I'd really want is for them to be stemmed to "chiamare", so my platform could look it up in a dictionary directly.
That's not stemming, but I can see how that would be a useful transformation.
> Can I just look at the closest match in a dictionary for the stemmed form, for most languages, and get the correct word?
You would need to write an algorithm to define "closest match" to match your needs. For instance, you could define things so that you always added "are" to the stemmed form, then looked for a match, and if that didn't work, you could add "ere", and so on. I don't imagine this being implemented within Tatoeba, but you could do it in software on your side.
> It is my understanding that wiktionary's feature is based on manual contributions and is not algorithmic.
Yes, although I'm sure that people use algorithms to help them produce the manual contributions.
> Do you happen to know how extensive it is (for en.wiktionary)?
Well, for Russian, based on my experience, I estimate that for about 95% of relatively common inflected forms, someone has added a link to the dictionary form. Where that is not the case, it is often possible to find a link by looking at pages with similar words.
> That's not stemming, but I can see how that would be a useful transformation.
As it's probably abundantly clear by now, I have no background in linguistics :P Sorry for the terminology barrier.
> You would need to write an algorithm to define "closest match" to match your needs. For instance, you could define things so that you always added "are" to the stemmed form, then looked for a match, and if that didn't work, you could add "ere", and so on. I don't imagine this being implemented within Tatoeba, but you could do it in software on your side.
Do you happen to know where I should be looking, or what the right term would be, to find a library or an API to do this in my place? I'm currently learning Japanese by myself because I've been blessed by mecab, and that's what does all the heavy lifting in my platform :) but when I'm done with Japanese, I'd like to learn another language, possibly german, swedish or icelandic, not sure yet. I don't know what to search for - I just know it's something similar to what mecab does for japanese.
Lastly, an unrelated question. I see you're an admin so this goes right to the best person to answer it :)
I've tried translating a bunch of sentences to Italian; however, after asking a Italian friend whether they sounded OK or not - since I'm a bit of a shut in and use almost only English online - and some sounded a bit unnatural.
That said, is it OK if I contribute anyway - to the sentences I feel more confident I know a good translation - or is it counterproductive for the project to have translation which are bad?
> However, what I'd really want is for them to be stemmed to "chiamare", so
> my platform could look it up in a dictionary directly.
It seems what you want is lemmatization.
> Do you happen to know where I should be looking, or what the right term
> would be, to find a library or an API to do this in my place?
I would google things like "lemmatizer" or "NLP libraries" (NLP meaning "natural language processing").
> That said, is it OK if I contribute anyway - to the sentences I feel more
> confident I know a good translation - or is it counterproductive for the
> project to have translation which are bad?
Everyone will inevitably create bad translations at some point. It becomes counterproductive when the proportion of bad translations that you contribute becomes too much. It is difficult to really quantify it because it's not a fixed threshold.
My advice is that you contribute as much as you want but always try your best for every translation you submit. If you have doubts about the quality and accuracy of your translation, then don't add it just yet. Take a bit more time to figure out what could be wrong, what could be improved.
If you are confident of your translation but it turns out to be a bad translation, then it's okay. We are not asking people to be perfect. You did your best, you are human, you can make mistakes. You "just" have to learn from your mistakes (and of course fix them).
> My advice is that you contribute as much as you want but always try your best for every translation you submit. If you have doubts about the quality and accuracy of your translation, then don't add it just yet. Take a bit more time to figure out what could be wrong, what could be improved.
That's definitely the base case. I wonder if I could ask for help from some Italian on tatoeba to see if my translations are good or not? If 19 out of 20 sound like what a native Italian would write or say, I can be confident in translating a few hundred more. :)
Please take a look at this page:
Yes, if you find an Italian speaker who is willing to check your sentences, that's great. Just make sure they can handle the volume of sentences that you write without getting overwhelmed.
Yep, that makes sense to me. But I am native. I've lived all my life in Italy, I'm still living in Italy, and I only plan on translating from English to Italian.
I still would like to validate that I'm writing natural sounding sentences, because you could make the argument that since most of the media I consume is not in Italian that makes me "rusty" in a way.
I see. That sounds good to me.
> I wonder if I could ask for help from some Italian on tatoeba to see if my
> translations are good or not?
Our main Italian contributor is Guybush88 and I'm pretty sure he will be proofreading your translations as you add more of them. You can contact him via private message otherwise, if you want to make sure he notices your contributions :)
Thanks a lot! I was trying to think of a way to ask who to ask without being impolite, but I'll surely send him a message then :)
I'm not getting a reply - can I assume he's going to take a look at them anyway in his regular work on the website and tell me if the quality's not great?
Sorry for my late reply, I've been busy elsewhere these days, I took a look at some of your sentences and they seem perfect to me. When I'll have a bit more time, I'll reply in a better way to your pm
Oh, no worries! No hurry at all - I didn't want to bother you; take your time with the reply :)