Datamme on julkaistu erilaisilla Creative Commons -lisensseillä.Lisätietoja
Jos pidät Tatoebasta, tee lahjoitus.
Seinä (6 959 viestiketjua)
Vinkit
Ennen kun esität kysymyksen, varmista, että olet lukenut UKK:n.
Pyrimme ylläpitämään tervettä ilmapiiriä sivistyneelle keskustelulle. Luethan meidän sääntömme huonoa käytöstä vastaan.
sharptoothed
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http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/1419243
New question, which came up while sacredceltic added the sentences of a nice poem (see link above), keeping the verse capitalization as it is. I objected, saying that capitalization should be adapted to English (or any language's) orthographic rules, when added to Tatoeba. I think the first letter of a line should not be capitalized in Tatoeba sentences, except of course English orthography demands it (proper nouns, beginning of a sentence, "I", "God" etc.).
Supposedly there has already been a discussion on this, somewhere...
What think you?
The question remains and I think it might be worth rephrasing it:
Do we want
1) quoted sentences on Tatoeba to reflect the actual spelling of the original, especially in poems (mind that this would include sentences or poems spelled in ALL CAPS, or for stylistic purposes in all lowercase or anything RaNdOm ThAt ThE aUtHoR mIgHt HaVe LiKeD), being faithful to the original style, even if we cannot be faithful to all parts of it (justification, linebreaks, color, font...), even if these sentence then defy regular English spelling, capitalization and punctuation? Or do we want
2) quoted lines from poems be adepted to be correct in their orthography (capitalization & punctuation). We already assume this rule for many things as sentences on Tatoeba should start with a capital letter and end in a punctuation mark (usually period, question or exclamation mark) for the languages this applies to.
I don't know if there are any fixed rules for this, yet, and I'm not sure if logic can outrule one of the two methods above. I'm just restating the two possibilities as neutral as possible.
[EPO] Mi deziras proponi prezenti versojn en la sama maniero, kiel ĉiun alian frazon de Tatoeba; KAJ aldoni la saman tekston - per la sama grafika aperaĵo, en kiu la poemo estis publikigita - sube kiel komenton: Tio povas aspekti jene:
[ENG] I would suggest when quoting verses, to present them in the same way as any other sentence of tatoebas; AND to add the same text - in the same graphic appearance the poem has been published in - beneath as comment. This may look like that:
Die Luft ist kühl und es dunkelt, und ruhig fließt der Rhein. Der Gipfel des Berges funkelt im Abendsonnenschein.
Die Luft ist kühl und es dunkelt,
Und ruhig fließt der Rhein.
Der Gipfel des Berges funkelt
Im Abendsonnenschein.
-Heinrich Heine-
1897 - 1856
Loreley, 2. Strophe
Kiel oni povas vidi jen
As can be seen here
http://tatoeba.org/deu/sentences/show/1399097
Mi tre ŝatas tiun ĉi ideon. Tie oni povus citi ankaŭ la nomon de la poemo kaj la linion ktp., kiel vi ĵus faris ĝin ĉi tie en la komento. Tion mi ŝatas eĉ pli ol la ideon kun la oblikva frakcistreko ( / ) de Nero kaj Shishir.
I would suggest when quoting this kind of sentences to add a / when a verse ends, this way the reader would know it's a poem and the verse finishes there. I suggest this because I don't like the idea of adding additional commas or dots that are not in the original text and may change the meaning of the fragment itself, and because I've seen this way of quoting more than once, and I consider it the less disruptive.
But honestly, I'm more concerned about things like this http://tatoeba.org/spa/sentences/show/575163 in which most of the words are invented. I don't care if the author is well-known, the fact is, this may be deceiving to anyone who doesn't know what this is.
I would suggest when quoting this kind of sentences to add a / when a verse ends...
That's referred to as a virgule in English.
funny how this debate went from:
You MUST do A
to
Nobody knows
to
You should do B
It's quite instructive...
http://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/sho...#message_11364
There I said a virgule is needed.
I know, Nero, I'm following this thread with much attention. I actually suggested it since my insertion of English verses caused a sensation...
I'll summarise the situation again:
Vortarulo and marcelostockle ordered me to decapitalise...
arcticmonkey concurred, since he seizes any opportunity to contradict me whatever my position, and, although I have none in this from the start, funnily enough, he somehow felt he had to be on the side of those who ordered me things, even if it means butchering poetry.
Vortarulo suddenly had qualms about that, though, and he realised that his initial peremptory order might well be rightfully debatable...Oh my!
Zifre dramatically contributed to this thread declaring that he had no idea about what to do...
You suggested a virgule.
If we wait long enough, we'll probably get another load of magisterial points of view...I'm sure boracasli has one.
« Souvent ... varie,
Bien fol qui s'y fie ! »
Wow. Congratulations, Mr.
You got most of it wrong. I'm still of the opinion that capitalization in The middle of the sentence is wrong. And I was for discussion from the beginning, because I thought it was a simple mistake on your side.
You know how to manipulate by false summaries. Sad though, that it never works.
Oh! I thought it was a slash... thanks for the information, Nero!
@sacredceltic: maybe for some people your capitalisations are the priority number one, but I'm not among them ^^
It is a slash, but, when it is used in poetry to indicate a line break, it is called a virgule.
>I would suggest when quoting this kind of sentences to add a / when a verse ends
+1
>But honestly, I'm more concerned about things like this
I'm so disppointed that my capitalisations are not the priority number one here...pfff!
ideally, it should be possible to insert carriage returns...
Capitalization is not distinctive in most poetry. (Line breaks are, however.) So I think it should be changed to fit normal rules for Tatoeba.
However, certain poets (e.e. cummings comes to mind) used capitalizations in unusual ways. In those cases, I'm not really sure what we should do.
Robert Frost's "Birches" line 21:
But I was going to say when Truth broke in
as I said, I'm against it
I completely agree with Vortarulo. Capitalisation and punctuation in poetry depend on line breaks. Since line breaks can't be displayed on Tatoeba sentences taken from poems, songs etc need to be adapted.
what does "to adapt" mean for poetry? Do you have the pretentiousness to be able to "adapt" famous poets? In what capacity, exactly?
I'm pretentious enough to replace a line break with a full stop. Shocking, I know.
you still don't answer in what capacity you would do this. Do you have a specific title or credentials that we can trust?
Bitte, sacredceltic, mache doch das Leben dir und anderen nicht so schwer. Es ist doch alles so einfach. Ich gebe ein Beispiel. Ist diese Veränderung ein großer Horror?
Ich hatte einst ein schönes Vaterland.
Der Eichenbaum
Wuchs dort so hoch, die Veilchen nickten sanft.
Es war ein Traum.
Ich hatte einst ein schönes Vaterland. Der Eichenbaum
wuchs dort so hoch, die Veilchen nickten sanft. Es war ein Traum.
Danke und Merci an Heinrich Heine
>Bitte, sacredceltic, mache doch das Leben dir und anderen nicht so schwer.
? Bitte? Comme again? Who is on my back here, exactly? Did I ask anything?
Unlike YOU, bunch of PSEUDO-EXPERTS I have NO opinion as to the rules to apply to poetry!
I am making difficulties? I don't know what you smoke, but you must be deluded, honest!
Not for sacredceltic only.
Maybe I have made myself misunderstood above. So let me translate my point into other (even English) words: Sometimes problems are much smaller then they look like. And if we recognize this life can be easier sometimes.
>Not for sacredceltic only.
I didn't even notice a problem while inserting my English verses...
So you're mistaken: Your message should target ANYBODY here BUT me.
> I didn't even notice a problem while inserting my English verses...
Right. But others noticed something, there is disagreement and now we're discussing it. Please stop your accusations and let's get back to the actual question about being faithful to capitalization in quoted sentences.
This was the reason I asked on the Wall. You even suggested it.
And what makes you an expert on (English-language) poetry, (English) grammar/orthography and citation rules, contrary to us?
By the way, I'm not sure if SHOUTING will give you any credit, here.
>And what makes you an expert on (English-language) poetry,
Nothing. Unlike you, I have not such pretense.
I bet I read more English poetry, or poetry in any language than you ever did, though, that's for sure!
Again, I think you're reversing the situation here. So let me summarise it:
I was inserting English verses in Tatoeba, for a change, to distract me from my usual hard translation work. I was doing it without asking anything to anyone, doing my job quietly as I do most of the time here. I spend on average 3 to 4 hours a day here. I seldom see you. But each time I do see you here, you seize any pretext of comma or capital or whatever to annoy me, and suddenly, all your pack of friends join, whatever the subject, and regardless of their expertise, proficiency or interest. They just go for the blood, as you do.
To people who don't know about you and me, I'll advise this :
Look who is working on Tatoeba and requests almost nothing => sacredceltic http://tatoeba.org/epo/user/profile/sacredceltic: I have contributed here 10 times more than you did.
Look who is almost not working on Tatoeba and annoys everybody for petty details all the time, giving orders with arrogance => Vortarulo http://tatoeba.org/epo/user/profile/Vortarulo
I'm not even speaking to you. I already suggested to ignore you if you would just do the same...
You're just looking for pretexts to harrass me and make a fuss, since the first day I arrived here and inserted a message on the wall in French and you protested because you wanted the wall to be all in English...
You are being extremely egocentric. I certainly do not focus on you only, when making comments on capitalization, punctuation or a random typo. I do this whenever I see it, regardless of who wrote the sentence. It's because you only notice me correcting you that you think I'd only correct you. But this is not the case. Had I seen Scott adding sentences with ungrammatical capitalization to Tatoeba, I would have reminded him as well.
You can see in my profile that I do not focus on you at all.
And yes, I seldom have time for Tatoeba, though I will have some more in the days to come. So I just go through some sentences for a bit, translating maybe 10 to 20 a day and noticing a few mistakes. Some people prefer adding excessive amounts of new sentences, others like to translate, some others like to clean up a bit.
Are you implying that someone who has not contributed as much sentences as you, does not have the right to criticize your (or anyone's) sentences, if he or she spots mistakes in them?
You already asked me to ignore you. I refused. I will not treat you differently than anyone else, you will not get your "Extrawurst". If I spot a mistake in one of your sentences, I will tell you. If you want to discuss my correction, alright. If you ignore my proposal for a correction, I will correct the sentence myself after 14 days or more, according to the rules, if I don't forget about it.
By the way, yes, I am sure you read much more poetry than I do, because I do not read poetry at all. But this is as much important to this discussion as being a poet oneself or having a degree in English literature (read: nothing).
>Some people prefer adding excessive amounts of new sentences,
Tell CK or al_ex_and_er.
I, for one, merely translate. I insert very few sentences in comparison of the translations I make. I think 90% of my activity here is translating. Massively, yes, but I can't see how translating can be excessive in a service whose purpose is precisely to provide translations...Incredible!
The fact that I work 10 times more than you for this service obviously annoys you...How can one contribute "excessively"?
Sorry, my mistake. I thought "excessive" can just mean 'very high', too. I did not want to imply that adding many new sentences to the database is bad. Not at all. "Massively" would've been a better word.
I'm not annoyed by how much time you put into this project. Quite the contrary.
Good, so the only way to diminish what I am doing is do more and better...
Please, take it easy. "Sich das Leben schwer machen" means not exactly "Schwierigkeiten machen /to make difficulties" and is not meant offending. I wouldn't have written and translated a modest but considerable amount of poetry in my life if I would easily accept the idea to do any harm to poets and their work. On the other hand side sometimes the temptation is huge to incorporate a short quotation from a poem into tatoeba, even if we can't here determine where a new line should begin. The advantage of good poetry is that it loses almost nothing of its beauty and effect, even if you render it as an ongoing sentence without the original line structure.
A university degree that includes literary studies should be enough. You'll probably say that's not enough. Then again, what are your credentials?
Err...you're reversing the problem => YOU want to adapt famous poets, not me...Do you get that or is it too difficult? What's your degree, again?
So removing a line break is okay, but changing the capitalization in the resulting phrase is not? Where do you draw the line?
You're adding incorrect sentences claiming you're using the only valid way of "citing" (it's even debatable if we're talking about citations here at all) it? At least it sounds like you do.
You wanted to see the opinion of others, I want it too, because maybe I'm the one with the odd opinion.
Are you ready to accept it, if the common agreement is to adapt the capitalization to standard English rules?
>So removing a line break is okay, but changing the capitalization in the resulting phrase is not?
says who?
>You're adding incorrect sentences
says who?
>claiming you're using the only valid way of "citing"
I haven't "claimed" anything of that sort.
>I want it too, because maybe I'm the one with the odd opinion.
I think you lack even the capacity to imagine this possibility!
>Are you ready to accept it, if the common agreement is to adapt the capitalization to standard English rules?
NO. Because I don't care for the view of your majority of non experts and various students without any credentials nor credibility...
None of you 4 here are native English speakers, to start with...So what do you know of the art of quoting poetry in English, exactly?
> None of you 4 here are native English speakers, to start with...So what do you know of the art of quoting poetry in English, exactly?
Neither are you.
So we're all waiting for an expert native speaker with the valid credentials? Who is to define what's "valid"?
:)
are you an author? A poet? a meaningful contributor of any kind? Did you publish anything?
Have you inserted any poetic content in Tatoeba?
How exactly is your view enlightened?
A virgule is needed to indicate line breaks in poetry.
Hola quiero aprender japones términos de abogacía y medicina por favor
[eng] Hello, I'd like to learn Japanese, law and medicine terms.
Hola, Efu007!
De seguro existe mucho material en japonés acerca de abogacía y medicina. Desafortunadamente, las frases en japonés traducidas directamente al español son solo 11.089 de 162.666 (sábado 4 de febrero).
Sin embargo, una buena posibilidad sería que crearas una lista con frases en español que te gustaría que fueran traducidas al japonés (usando la herramienta de listas que ofrece Tatoeba).
No existen muchos usuarios capacitados para hacer traducciones español-japonés pulcras en Tatoeba, pero sí de inglés-japonés. Así que cuando tengas una lista puedes enviar un mensaje privado a un usuario capaz de traducirlas al inglés, y después le enviamos la lista a usuarios japoneses.
Te invito a que ofrezcas más información en tu perfil sobre quien eres, respecto al país de que provienes, las lenguas que conoces y las que te gustaría conocer, etc.
Bienvenido a Tatoeba!
*** denaskaj statistikoj 2011 ***
en 2011,
eng > 69.83% el la frazoj estis aldonitaj de denaskaj parolantoj
fra > 57.59%
spa > 74.11%
deu > 87.29%
tur > 99.06%
por > 94.70%
ita > 95.76%
jpn > 90.01%
cmn > 73.64%
nds > 98.44%
nld > 93.30%
hun > 82.51%
rus > 72.84%
pes > 98.82%
heb > 91.87%
fin > 91.24%
srp > 93.42%
bul > 98.75%
pol > 59.85%
isl > 95.08%
ukr > 73.46%
ron > 66.15%
dan > 91.53%
swe > 77.24%
hrv > 98.27%
**** About tag *****
I suggest to remove the tag controversial
and use "lie" only when it's about science fact (history is a science), if you really think that tag is necessary (but to be honest a comment would seems better to me)
And anyway Tatoeba is not wikipedia, so one who use it (in the future we will had a disclaimer if you really thinki we need it), must know it's about sentence people CAN say, not about sentence someone with the gift (but is that a gift?) of being born with the absolute Truth about the universe, life and everything in mind. I hope people understand, it seems to me that it's obvious, but may be I should also send an e-mail to a friend of mine to tell him to add to the jokes book he wrote to add "note: some of these jokes are about event that may not be possible"
There seems to be some consensus that the "lie" tag should be renamed to something like false, not true, untrue, misleading, etc.
[not needed anymore- removed by CK]
I completely agree with CK and Zifre here, this tag can be very useful for some people, so I honestly wonder why it should be deleted. I accept renaming it into something less polemic, such as "false statement", but I strongly support keeping it, the same as the tag "controversial". If we start deleting tags according to the use we consider should be made of this corpus without thinking that maybe for someone else they may be useful, I wonder how many tags will remain...
I think the "controversial" tag can be useful. It hasn't posed any problem until today.
For example, the tag was used on the sentence "Wikipedia is the best encyclopedia on the Internet." That's a statement that not everyone will agree with, so we add a tag like "controversial" or "opinion".
This is a simple system that works well. Why change it all because one user is trolling this website and arguing that every sentence is potentially controversial? I don't like the idea that the entire site is changing because of one user who is probably just doing this for fun/because he likes to argue.
Whatever the decision, it needs to be made because that's the best choice for Tatoeba, not to content one user who likes to object to everything.
objecting against the majority is not trolling, it is just being part of a minority. It's the basis of democracy that not everyone agrees with YOU even though you are part of a more vocal group.
Besides, the idea of removing the tag "controversial" is not mine. I'm actually against it as I explained earlier, because I think people should be made aware that certain assertions must not be taken for granted, as it is not always obvious and people tend to meekly bend to conformism (the kind you want to impose, calling trolls everybody that doesn't conform to your standards).
But I'm also in favour of keeping "lie" as a tag, because a lie is a lie, it's not just controversial and it can be very misleading, such as this idiocy: http://tatoeba.org/epo/sentence...comment-148042
Children use this service, and they shouldn't be misled into believing that kind of bullshit.
"A quarterly growth of 1.2% means an annual growth rate of 4.8%."
This of course isn't an opinion; it's just nonsense. Nevertheless a lie-tag doesn't remedy this. The sentenced should be removes or changed. I think, there is no long discussion needed to agree on this.
The author never reacted...and you cannot force people to write truths that they just ignore, most of the time.
Hence, "lie" tags are necessary.
http://tatoeba.org/deu/sentences/show/168956
The author is not longer available, as is the case with so many Japanese sentences. It won't be a big deal to replace this one number. There is even no knowledge of Japanes needed to do this.
Now the Japanese sentence tells us that the annul growth is 4.9 % - and that's correct in a number rounded to one decimal place. The corresponding changes in the translations are on their way.
Une hirondelle ne fait pas le printemps.
Les étiquettes "lie" ou "untrue" (je ne vois pas la différence) restent nécessaires.
.-.-.
Merci, xeklat, une telle définition se révèle fort utile : "There is no universally accepted definition of lying to others"...
.-.-.
Tu dois pas trop aimer la contestation, ça doit être ça...
.-.-.
oui oui, tu fais partie de la nouvelle génération super conformiste qui trouve la contestation inutile...Je crois que j'ai bien compris...
Je crois décidément que les jeunes occidentaux sont aux antipodes du printemps arabe ou russe...
.-.-.
Ce n'est pas très fair-play de dissumuler le peu de bravade dont on fait preuve sous une langue que l'autre ne comprend pas !
.-.-.
C'est toi qui prétend m'empêcher de protester contre les mensonges, contre-vérités ou assertions trompeuses.
Je te cite :
>Je trouve l'étiquette inutile, tout simplement.
Il y a apparemment un mouvement contre les étiquettes permettant de réagir, comme si toutes les affirmations se valaient, dans une indifférence générale qui est l'apanage de notre temps.
Ce mouvement est nouveau, et je me vois désormais intimer des ordres de ne pas penser par des petits caudillos de cour de récréation.
Je ne vais pas me laisser faire. Le droit de penser est inscrit dans mes gènes.
Pour commencer, ça n'a jamais été la règle sur Tatoeba et je ne suis pas l'inventeur de ces étiquettes réactives que je n'ai fait que trouver sur le service.
Une fois de plus, c'est à mon sujet qu'on veut changer la règle. Lorsque ces étiquettes s'appliquaient à mes phrases, elles ne gênaient personne...
Il n'en est pas question. On ne change pas des règles aussi fondamentales une fois que les gens se sont tellement investis dans un projet sur la base de libertés antérieures qui les ont séduites.
Ce serait une ignominie.
La différence entre un mensonge et la fausseté, c'est la bêtise.
.-.-.
>(Ce que tu cites n’est pas une définition.)
C'est ton lien...
Yes, please do.
I'd suggest removing "Lie", "controversial"a, and "opinion", and instead do as you say, add a little advertisement like "Note: some of these sentences represent opinions or facts that might be false or not represent the thoughts of the entire community."
That way, there are no more agendas, no more English conspiracy, no more dictatorship, and all the persons dazzled everyday with these matters will be finally free of all that concern.
一件落着!
>That way, there are no more agendas, no more English conspiracy, no more dictatorship
You're so candid, it's almost moving...
"Candidness and transparency, information and communication are the basis of mutual trust. Offenheit und Transparenz, Information und Kommunikation sind die Basis gegenseitigen Vertrauens." :)
Tio estas brila ideo, kiu ebligos al ni reveni al la laboro.
That's a brilliant idea, which will enable us to return to work.
Meanwhile, one language is dying every second week, in silence...
I hope that the UI of Tatoeba can be improved. For example, I can choose my preferred language so that I just need to choose the language from a small list rather than the current long language list. Also, only the language in my preferred language list will show on the web page.
In Chinese:
一个建议：
用户可以自己设定自己的语言列表，这样
1.用户在浏览例句的时候显示的语言都是他们希望看到的
2.用户在选择选择源语言和目标语言的时候只需要在几个选项中选，而不是很长的语言列表
This is partly already the case. You can parameter the laguage ISO codes that you want to use in your profile. You must separate them with a comma.
With this setup, you see only the translations in the languages that you wish and can select the language of a sentence from that list.
You will still see the flow on the home page in all languages, though.
侬好～
其实我在写Tatoeba的新版，在这个我已经加了那个特征，你可以试试看 http://en.tato.sysko.fr/ 用户: test 密码 : toto , 差不多是你想的，对吧？谢谢你的建议。
I would like to suggest something. In the Spanish interface of Tatoeba, the Egiptian Arabic (arz) appears like "Egipcio Arabico" but in Spanish, it's rather called "Árabe Egipcio". Could we change it?
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81rabe_egipcio
**** important ****
I will take some vacations (9 days), since tomorrow (so in more or less 24hours), and during this time I will have certainly have no acces to the internet. So don't worry if I don't answer to private message or emails during this period.
For the server itself, I will give an access to Linkmauve (he's not very active in term of "sentence" contributions but he's following the project for several years)
So if tatoeba is down or so while I'm away (recently I've fixed most of the reason why tatoeba has been down these last months, but you know, Murphy law), please go in the IRC channel (#tatoeba on freenode , you have a webclient here http://webchat.freenode.net/ and tell him.
[fra]
*** Important ****
Je pars en vacances demain (dans 24 heures exactement), pour 9 jours, avec certainement pas accès à Internet, donc ne vous inquiétez pas si je ne réponds pas à vos e-mails, message privés durant cette période
Pour ce qui est du serveur lui-même, je le confie à Linkmauve (il n'est pas très actif en terme d'ajout de phrases, mais il suit le projet depuis plusieurs années), donc si jamais le serveur tombe en panne, vous pouvez le contactez en allant sur notre salon IRC (#tatoeba sur freenode), un client web est accessible ici http://webchat.freenode.net/
[traduko FRA < EPO]........****Grava informo****............
Morgaŭ mi forvojaĝos ferii 9 tagojn, certe sen retaliro; do ne maltrankviliĝu, se mi ne respondos viajn retajn kaj privatajn mesaĝojn dum ĉi tiu tempo.
Pri la servilo mi fidas al Linkmauve (li estas ne tre agema se temas pri la aldono de frazoj, sed li akompanas la projekton jam plurajn jarojn), do kiam ajn la servilo paneas, vi povas kontakti lin per nia kanalo IRC (#tatoeba sur freenode), retokliento alireblas ĉi tie: http://webchat.freenode.net/
[Übersetzung EPO>DEU]......****WICHTIGE MITTEILUNG****.......
Morgen verreise ich um neun Tage Ferien zu machen. Ich werde sicherlich ohne Netzzugang sein; beunruhigt euch also nicht, falls ich während dieser Zeit eure E-Mails oder Privatnachrichten nicht beantworten werde.
Was den Server anbelangt, vertraue ich auf Linkmauve (Er ist nicht sehr aktiv, wenn es um das Hinzufügen von Sätzen geht, aber er begleitet das Projekt schon mehrere Jahre lang.), also wann immer der Server in die Knie geht, könnt ihr ihm über unseren Kanal IRC (#tatoeba sur freenode) Bescheid geben. Ein Web-Klient-Zugang ist hier http://webchat.freenode.net/
Mensagem de sysko:
*** Importante ***
Eu saio de férias amanhã (em 24 horas aproximadamente), por 9 dias, certamente sem acesso à Internet, então não se preocupe se eu não responder aos seus e-mails ou mensagens privadas durante esse período.
Ao que diz respeito ao próprio servidor, eu o deixo com Linkmauve (ele não é muito ativo em termos de adicionar frases, mas segue o projeto há vários anos), então se o servidor der pane, você pode entrar em contato com ele indo à nossa sala IRC (#tatoeba no freenode). Um ciente web é acessível por aqui: http://webchat.freenode.net/
Boas férias!
Bon voyage! / Bon voyage !
Bonnes vacances !
Oui oui ! Bonnes vacances !
Hi! Have you ever heard about The People's Dictionary?
I has a great number of English/Swedish sentences and can be redistributed under Creative Commons License.
Here's the link:
http://folkets-lexikon.csc.kth....olkets.en.html
Even if some are not really sentences and needs to be fixed I think this would solve, at least partially, the lack of Swedish sentences in Tatoeba.
This maybe a really good idea. But I would like do add: even more important than Swedish sentences are Swedish contributors. It's very important to have people who care for the sentences, update links with translations in other languages, give advice to translators and so on...
I should really double check what I write before posting-what a terrible grammar-still the point stands. I can't do much about Swedish contributors, since all the ones I know are not that much into these kind of projects. But maybe a bigger amount of English/Swedish sentences would help.
Swedes make a big deal about being able to speak a perfect English and providing them an effective way to improve may work. Sounds like conquering a new market ;)
"Sounds like conquering a new market ;)" :)))
So we will have to convince the Swedes not to forget there mothertongue (?) That's a noble aspiration. :) Maybe I'll let myself be infected. I coud contribute sentences in Bookmal (Norwegian). But maybe... if someone isn't interested, the number of sentences in Swedish , Norwegian or Slovenian will not change his or her attitude. We'll see what comes of that.
Esperanto: „Tio sonas kiel konkeri novan merkaton;)“ :))
Do ni devos konvinki la svedojn, ne forgesi sian gepatran lingvon (?) Tio estas nobla strebado. :) Eble mi lasos min infekti. Mi povas kontribui frazojn en Bookmal (norvega). Sed eble… se iu ne estas interesata, tiam la nombro de la frazoj en la sveda, norvega aŭ slovena ne ŝanĝos lian aŭ ŝian pensmanieron. Ni vidos, kio rezultos.
Deutsch:„Das klingt nach der Eroberung eines neuen Marktes ;)“ :))
Also werden wir die Schweden überzeugen müssen, ihre Muttersprache nicht zu vergessen (?) :) Das ist ein edles Bestreben. Vielleicht werde ich mich anstecken lassen. Ich kann Sätze auf Bookmal (Norwegisch) beisteuern. Wenn aber jemand glaubt, dass Tatoeba unnötig sei, weil in der Welt nur die englische Sprache zählt, dann wird die Zahl der Sätze, die wir auf Schwedisch, Norwegisch oder Slowenisch haben, wahrscheinlich nichts an seiner oder ihrer Denkweise ändern. Wir werden sehen, was dabei herauskommt.
As I have time to deal about this these days, lets do some tag,list cleaning
So here please discuss about
which tag you want to keep ,
which tags you wants to be deleted
which tags you want to see moved to list
precise them clearly so that after we can discuss about it.
Thanks
.-.-.
I think the "Lie" tag is useful, but like CK, I think it should be renamed. (I'd suggest "false" or "not true").
I don't think the tag is necessary for sentences like "Chuck Norris is a platypus." or "2 + 2 = 5". However, there is nothing wrong with using it in these cases. I wouldn't encourage it though.
The tag is most useful for things that sound like they could be facts, but aren't. If I said:
"According to an article in a recent issue of Scientific American, there is a 96% chance that there is intelligent life within 1,000 light-years of earth."
it seems possible that some people might interpret it as fact even though I just made it up. They might tell their friends or even just waste five minutes looking it up to see if it's true. This could be prevented with a simple tag.
The tag should NOT be used for things like "I ate a sandwich yesterday." even if it is indeed false for the author. If you really feel the need to let everyone know that you didn't eat a sandwich, do it in a comment.
So, here are my criteria for using this tag:
1) It must be objective - nothing that is reasonably disputable
2) It must not be about the author
3) It must not be in inside-joke (sentences about Tatoeba members probably count)
2) It should not be obviously false
"The tag should NOT be used for things like "I ate a sandwich yesterday." even if it is indeed false for the author. If you really feel the need to let everyone know that you didn't eat a sandwich, do it in a comment."
Yes, sentences are example sentences. They're not about the author himself. So the sentence "My computer is not working" doesn't concern your computer. It concerns a hypothetical computer owned by a hypothetical person. So no "lie" tag there.
>We must trust women as much as we can trust the weather.<
Reading this sentence I asked myself: Where is the dislike button? But maybe you recommend me a convenient tag.
http://tatoeba.org/deu/sentences/show/892442
sexist?
misogynistic It's already on the French sentence.
+1
.-.-.
> Anyway, even for all those uses you all describe, it seems obvious to me that what you want is a "false" or "not true" tag, not a "lie" tag. Not because of offensiveness, but simply because not everything that is false is a lie.
Yes, I do think it should be renamed.
Not being francophone I can't follow the complete discussion, but in my eyes it seems at least unnecessary to have a tag named lie. If someone wants to protest against a sentence he can do this by commenting and discussing the sentence. If there is no compromise possible with the "owner" of the sentence there still the possibility of a discussion on the wall.
@xeklat
I don't think that someone wanted to offend you (or at lest I hope so). In general I don't see a connection between the content of a sentence and the opinion of its author or owner, like I don't see such an connection if I read a novel for instance.
[not needed anymore- removed by CK]
Perhaps instead of "untrue", it could be "false".
I agree that "untrue" "not true" "false" or "not not false" :) would be better than "Lie" since they're more neutral.
Je viens de voir que c'était moi et je n'en éprouve aucune honte.
Les correcteurs orthographiques français, comme je viens de le vérifier ici dans Chrome, acceptent aussi bien « e-mail » que « courriel », donc ton affirmation est mensongère, dans l'absolu...
« courriel » est effectivement d'origine québécoise, mais il est désormais d'usage courant en france.
Les nouvelles règles sur les étiquettes n'ont pas d'effet rétroactif et il n'y avait aucune autre règle auparavant que celle qui donnait le droit aux contributeurs avancés d'étiqueter des phrases, comme on l'a amplement fait pour les miennes, entre autres. Cet étiquetage se faisait soit de manière « légère » comme on le voit ici http://tatoeba.org/epo/sentences/show/18524 ou avec un programme, comme ici http://tatoeba.org/epo/sentences/show/244067
D'ailleurs j'ai même étiqueté moi-même certaines de mes phrases comme des mensonges comme ici http://tatoeba.org/epo/sentences/show/8140 ou ici http://tatoeba.org/epo/sentences/show/1271749
Toutefois, certains mensonges sont patents http://tatoeba.org/epo/sentences/show/841680
http://tatoeba.org/epo/sentences/show/1390132
Je suis personnellement complètement en faveur de la nouvelle règle énoncée par sysko qui enjoint de justifier les étiquettes.
En revanche, je suis contre l'« objectivation » telle que définie par Vortarulo, parce que selon moi, tout est subjectif, à commencer par notre existence, et si donc nous suivions cette voie, aucune étiquette ne serait justifiée...
.-.-.
> I just think it is a useless tag. Who cares about whether Tatoeba example sentences happen to be true or false? It says "example sentences" on the title page, not "wisdoms to guide people through their lives".
It may not be useful for you or even for anyone using the Tatoeba web interface. But we all seem to forget the goal of Tatoeba is to produce a high quality corpus of sentences that can be used for a variety of purposes. Some of these purposes may require filtering out sentences that are false, which becomes a lot easier when you have a tag for it.
.-.-.
What do you mean?
.-.-.
Yeah, I meant to say something about this.
I think the tag should be restricted to sentences with relatively unambiguous references. Tom, Mary, you, and I could be anybody.
As for time, the tag should reflect the truth at the present time. So we can remove and re-add it as necessary.
.-.-.
Well I think most "false" statements will not change too often.
For the ones that do, it's not super critical that we catch them immediately. (Sentences that were at one point true are probably the false sentences that are least harmful in a corpus where you are trying to filter them out all false sentences.)
> Some of these purposes may require filtering out sentences that are false, which becomes a lot easier when you have a tag for it.
+1
>It says "example sentences" on the title page, not "wisdoms to guide people through their lives".
Yes, and most newspapers and magazines say they deliver news when most of it is propaganda and marketing...
No public expression is neutral.
>In this specific case, by the way, if attributed to xeklat, the proposition was not a lie, but an accurate description of the behaviour of the software of the phone that xeklat happens to use
But you didn't limit the consideration in your sentence as you do now in this comment.
Your sentence is thus misleading, to say the least, and I want to be able to state it.
I change the tag to "misleading"...
.-.-.
If it's "observative", then you must define the field of the observation...
.-.-.
People tend to construct context out of emptiness.
La nature a horreur du vide.
.-.-.
Oui, donc c'est ce manque de précision qui est "misleading"...
Nihilism under the sleeves.
Nihilism is as subjective as anything else.
I don't think the tag "lie" should be used at all. If someone disagrees with a statement, they can say so in the comments.
But what about a sentence like "2+2=5" or "Canada is the largest country of South America". I think that it's nice to have a warning that it's not true.
I still think this should be dealt with in the comments. Adding a tag such as "lie" or "incorrect" is not very transparent. In the comments, you can explain why you think something is wrong or why you disagree with something.
I think a comment should always be added, but tags make it easy for someone using the Tatoeba corpus to filter them out the sentences with lies, if that is what they desire.
.-.-.
Quite right.
I think that it's better to add a comment when adding the Lie tag because it sends a notification and it provides an explanation as to why the tag was added. And I think that the lie tag should only be used when something is objectively false, not for subjective judgments. The controversial tag should be used in these cases.
"I prefer being poor to being rich."
"The finest wines are those from France."
These two should be "controversial", it's a subjective judgment.
"Children should drink milk every day." How is that a lie?
"L'âme, toujours errante, reste éternelle, ici et maintenant." That's a religious belief. I don't think it should be tagged or we will end up with endless
yes, then let's tag ALL sentences with "controversial", because they all are...
>"Children should drink milk every day." How is that a lie?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTo5TulJLU8
They're not all controversial... Especially not this one: http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/901201
See here for a better summary of the controversy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk#Controversy
So tag it controversial if you want.
everything is controversial...
... even controversy?
if we are to replace every tag with "controversial", since every sentence is, we should as well dump the tag functionality altogether...
Looking to the debates above, as a first objective, we may be first focus on two things
* nearly duplicate tags (either by mispelling or due to the use of a synonym)
* troll tag (tag that have been used only to demonstrate an absurdity by creating an other absurdity)
En tous cas, je trouverais correct que chaque étiquette qui est retirée fasse également l'objet d'un commentaire, sauf, bien sûr, s'il s'agit d'un retrait général, comme celui des "XXX" mais alors il est important de prévenir à l'avance...
One unimportant thing that has bugged me forever...
"@Needs Native Check" should be "@needs native check" like all the other tags.
[not needed anymore- removed by CK]
I pretty much agree with everything CK said.
I'd also like to point out that tags such as "subjunctive mood", "present tense", "past tense", "finite", "non-finite" etc. are very useful for the purpose of linguistic corpus analysis. Please don't delete these kinds of tags!
About moral tags @CK
Your personal definition of what is appropriate for your children is your business and I forbid you to impose them on mine!
These definitions have absolutely no grounds that can be share across the entire humanity.
Besides, they're obscurantist: why can't children from all over the world know that "the penis is one of the reproductive organs" ? What's wrong with penises? What's wrong with organs? What's wrong with reproduction?
Your sentences encouraging the culture of snacking and guns are far more unsafe in a world population growingly obese that collect mass-murderers! Think!
I have the same feeling.
The same with [delete], which should probably be [@delete].
I would divide these tags into three groups:
1. Essential tags
- tags starting with [@], indicating that the sentence needs to be checked, corrected, or removed:
@check
@change
@change flag
@needs native check
@delete
2. Regionalisms
- tags that indicate slangs or regionalisms (since we have only one flag for each language). We have many similar tags, like [Brazil] and [not used in Brazil]. What does the first tag mean? Are we saying that the sentences are about the country itself, Brazil, or that they contain expressions used only in Brazil? That's why we need a word before the country/region to indicate that it's all about usage, for example: [used only in Brazil], [regionalism: Brazil], etc. This category is VERY IMPORTANT, because some languages may sound very different according to the region. Many Spanish students wouldn't understand voseo (the use of the second person singular pronoun "vos" in many countries instead of "tu"). We really need the tag [voseo].
3. Authors
- tags starting with "by".
4. Useless tags
- 80% of the tags. I'll just take some random examples:
[biology]
[cooking]
[to 2nd sing/pl formal]
[It means "people can easily be tamed".]
[Chinese wisdom]
[pater nostrum]
[racist]
[contrepèterie]
The first tag, for example, could be a personal list. Tags like [pater nostrum] could be simply deleted and others like [It means "people can easily be tamed".] could be added as a comment.
I agree with classifying tags into groups. I however don't agree with your list of useless tags.
[biology],[cooking] Those are examples of what the sentence is about. It's similar to the [medical]or[food]tag that you would find in a dictionary. I believe those tags could potentially be useful for someone wanting to use Tatoeba's data, e.g. finding all the sentences related to one subject.
Actually, since it's hard to predict how exactly Tatoeba's data will be used, I think that having more tags is a good thing since it makes the data "richer".
[It means "people can easily be tamed".] I agree that this belongs in the comments.
[Chinese wisdom]
[pater nostrum]
[contrepèterie]
These I also view these as useful. "Pater Nostrum" shows where the sentence is from. This should probably be changed to "From Pater Nostrum". It shows that it's not say, casual speech. "Contrepèterie" shows that this sentence contains a particular French figure of speech (a spoonerism in English). A list could replace them, but I feel that lists really are "outdated technology". For anyone wanting to make sense of data, tags will be more useful.
What I'd propose is finding a way of organizing the tags into categories so that it's a bit less confusing.
Well, when I say "useless tags" I mean that they can be replaced by a list or a comment... the only problem with comments is that one wouldn't be able to filter the sentences... But if we really want to reduce the list of tags, we will have to abandon some of them.
I mostly agree with this classification. There are a few tags that are not regionalisms but add similar, useful information (e.g. 成语). Also I think tags like "said by male" can be useful to beginners.
If one read the above mentioned questions one could suppose everything will be quite simple, but, I beg your pardon, I have some doubts about this. The possible views on this matter are very different, and I ask myself whether it is really necessary to begin with a controversial content-centered discussion, and whether it could possibly above all create conflicts rather than to bring a generally acceptable solution.
I’m convinced it’s (at least in the beginning ) possible to gain very much with a quite pragmatic approach. If we consider, that all authors in the future will be indicated in another way, the list of the tags will at least be cut in half or may be even reduced to a third. In the number of the remaining tags we will see, that again a huge majority of them appear only one or two times. If we suppose that frequency may be an indicator of importance and usefulness , and fix a number of maybe 10, and we would consent that only tags appearing 10 or more times should remain, we would get a list with probably less than 10 percent of the former entries. (Of course I didn’t count them but tried to give a reasonable rough estimate based on random sampling and optical impression). To reach consensus about such a way to process will certainly not be difficult, because a discussion about subjective criterias and interests would not be necessary at all. Thus we can already make a huge step forward, and the starting position for all further considerations will be significantly more favorable.
Another point: I guess I'm not the only one who happened to create tags without intention by mistyping, or who in the past created tags which he or she considers now no longer necessary. So I would very like to support the cleaning to get rid of this stuff.
Do you really need all your Esperanto verb tags? Does the tag "-as -as -is -is" serve any useful purpose?
These tags are obvious from the content of the sentence. Tags should be used to group things that aren't obvious, like authors of quotes. If we could get rid of these, it would significantly clean up the list of tags.
Sorry if I'm repeating myself a bit here, but I think that those tags are potentially useful. I would just move them into a "Language specific tag" category where they would be less visible.
I think that we shouldn't view it as an objective to reduce the number of tags at all cost, since that removes a lot of information. Many websites using tags have immense lists of tags.
Yes, maybe we just need to categorize them...
Dear colleagues, I would like to explain to you why I insist on the importance of the possibility to give basic indications of sentence structures, verb tenses and word numbers, and to discuss how this can be managed and restricted in such a way that nobody should see this as a disadvantage.
At the moment I lack time to go into details, but I count on you, and last not least again and again I admire the amount of energy and knowledge you all invest into the development and maintaining of this corpus tatoeba, a tool that can offer great opportunities also for didactical an analytical purposes. Concerning their importance we may judge differently, as we may look at the use of this corpus from different angles, but I hope we can agree that it would be a contradiction not to support the use of these possibilities.
I don't have a problem with language specific tags per se, but I do have a problem with ones that simply describe the text of the sentences and have the potential for nearly unbounded growth (i.e. these Esperanto verb tags).
And the words counting...why not letters? Syllables?
I don't think they're terribly useful. I would prefer if we removed them for now, and possibly re-add that information when we get metadata (but only if users can provide compelling use cases). Hopefully, it would be automated in most cases. (It is easy for a computer to count syllables in any language with a phonemic orthography and counting words in a language with spaces is trivial. However, it would get tricky when things like numbers and foreign names are added.)
OK, well I don't know Esperanto so I assumed they were reasonable.
I agree. Obvious info such as number of words and tenses should not be there.
I think that most tags are OK. What I think should be done is a better classification of tags, e.g.
1) author tag
2) date tag
3) tags specific to Language (e.g. "verb ending in -er")
[epo] sekve mia antaŭa postaĵo, multaj kontribuantoj bonvolis indiki sian landon en siaj profiloj, do mi ĝisdatigis la mondomapon de Tatoebistoj.
[fra] à la suite de ma précédente publication, de nombreux contributeurs ont bien voulu indiquer leur pays dans leurs profils, donc j'ai remis à jour la mappemonde des Tatoébens.
[eng] following my last publication, many contributors were so kind as to indicate their country in their profiles so I updated the world map of Tatoebans.
https://docs.google.com/spreads...r&pli=1#gid=15
I wish there were more active Japanese contributors
And I wish there were more Latin students...
I wish I had more time to study Latin...
do you have long eyelashes?
Thank you! 26 Brazilians! It's a pity that most of them are inactive...
Oui, je suis très content aussi qu'il y ait tant de Brésiliens ! C'est une grande victoire pour Tatoeba !
Je pense qu'un facteur très important pour les faire rester est de montrer que Tatoeba est vraiment une communauté internationale.
Il faut qu'ils voient du portugais partout, sur le mur, dans les commentaires, etc.
Il faudrait aussi que le guide du contributeur soit traduit en portugais http://blog.tatoeba.org/2010/02...n-tatoeba.html
Je croyais que Braulio en avait fait une traduction, mais je ne la vois pas là...
It hasn't been posted yet...
http://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/sho...8#message_8038
Je me disais bien...
Bon ben il faut faire pression auprès de l'admin...
Brasil, Brasil, não pode ser!
Voici la liste des contributeurs en portugais en 2011 qui ont contribué plus de 40 phrases
nombro da frazoj lingvo kontribuanto denaska lingvo denaska Lando
32513 por alexmarcelo por Denaska brazilo
3470 por tulio por Denaska
3302 por brauliobezerra por Denaska brazilo
1784 por une_monica por Denaska
781 por hayastan spa Ne denaska argentinio
685 por paula_guisard por Denaska brazilo
562 por lazymoose por Denaska brazilo
505 por helmfer por Denaska brazilo
447 por lenon_perez por Denaska brazilo
278 por Gyuri por Denaska brazilo
275 por vekiano por Denaska brazilo
271 por Welton por Denaska brazilo
170 por satsu Ne denaska brazilo
143 por Shishir spa Ne denaska hispanujo
133 por flipe Ne konata brazilo
131 por nancy Ne denaska urugvajo
130 por alvren por Denaska brazilo
130 por npc Ne denaska brazilo
126 por alicup por Denaska brazilo
101 por marloncori por Denaska brazilo
98 por kazenochikara Ne denaska brazilo
83 por carlo por Denaska brazilo
74 por Fermoselle Ne denaska
71 por zvaigzne #N/A Ne konata
69 por marcusps por Denaska kanado
68 por KenBr por Denaska japanio
68 por POLIGLOTA Ne denaska brazilo
63 por Celio por Denaska brazilo
61 por alexmaur por Denaska brazilo
53 por jdonnarumma #N/A Ne konata
46 por gobr Ne denaska brazilo
44 por vipiai Ne denaska brazilo
42 por FernandoMaiaJr por Denaska brazilo
42 por tinacalysto Ne denaska brazilo
42 por Gustavo por Denaska brazilo
Cetere tio ne eblas: mia antaŭa postaĵo
Sur via postaĵo vi sidas, kaj ĝi ne estas antaŭe :)
Sed ne gravas; kutime oni ne rimarkas la mankantan ^tegmenteton.
ĉu vi celas diri ke "antaŭa postaĵo" ne taŭgas?
poŝtaĵo ( tre simila al postaĵo, kaŭzas ofte mistajpojn )
ĉi tie, ne temas pri mistajpo, sed pri miscerbo...
mi proze celis diri "mesaĝo", sed mi estas tre influigita de la angla...
Bonvolu pardoni min...
Dankon, Merci, Thanks, secredceltic !